Mark, Dev was a modearte in comparison to his FG counterparts at the time … i know its hard to believe, but FG were 100% in support of hitler and his movement ….. Crazy in todays terms, or is it????? Gilmore/Kenny wont support the Palestinians (1.5 million living in an open prison, waiting on their final judgement) …. Do you think the irish should invade and take the side of right???? Or should we wait for Shatter ( he is leader of the friends of israel in iireland to take a righteous stand and demand an end to Israeli occupation and siege of the palestinian terroritories?)

cal…first point..this thread is about the contempt shown by develera to irish men who fought fascism not about israel and palestine today
2nd point..a minority of oduffys blueshirts supported fascism…during ww2 a certain ira man sean russell died on a uboat as he was being dropped off here to spy for hitler
dillon..a leading fine gael politician was in favour of joining the war effort on the allied side…your rant is so off the mark its laughable…read some genuine history books not propaganda

While personally hating DeValera for what he was. FF could not have been so successful without FG being such a cold house for so many people in this country. People should look at sum of the statements that Blythe, Sweetman and Cosgrave came out with. They were extreme in their economics. 18th C. Victorian outlook. Mr Bounderby would have been a FG TD if that book was set in Ireland.

Think you’ll find the British shot all deserters during the great war. Not just the Irish ones

How would they have treated their soldiers had they deserted to the IRA during our War of Independence?

But we’re not allowed say that or we get a good smack. [I'm black and blue from stating facts.]

If they were British soldiers who deserted to go fight, say Franco, a fascist, they would have been shot upon return to Blighty, irregardless of circumstance or who they deserted to fight with or against. They got a slap on the wrist here when they came back and just got on with life. The likes of Nash have been watching too many old movies.

hindsight is a fools foresight!!

Grrrrr. Why do I read continue to read these. Eamon…”airtight until the Internet” !!!! Oh sweet divine. I come from a working class family, went to a mediocre secondary school in the 80′s. It is common knowledge about the introduction concentration camps by the British in SA during boer war and then Turkey. The Canadians placed their Japanese population in one in 1945. While we are on the subject get a bus out to Mosney if you have never been or are we still waiting to be educated by the Internet on that one. Read a book(on line if you wish) stop engaging in this mindless blather like this piss poor debate ( myself included) blaming our ignorance and laziness on cover ups and conspiracy.

Watch you don’t fall off your high horse there from lack of oxygen. So I’m ignorant, I only got to read about these camps on the Internet. Ok, lock me up in a…oh wait. Better stay up there, enjoy the view.

spot on Rebecca

It’s easy to say we should be ashamed now seeing as we have such good relations with the brits, back then things were completed different. Dont get me wrong, i was unaware how badly treated the “deserters” were and thats the bit we should be ashamed of. Plus I’m no fan of the dev legacy either.
But no offence, just because you have fought in a war, be it Iraq, Afghanistan, Falklands, whatever, doesn’t give you any more authority on this particular subject than anyone else here. ESPECIALLY when some of those wars, notably Iraq, were just direct invasions and occupations of another country. A historian probably has the most authority.

Totally right

lol. Bad Paddy for not signing up to be cannonfodder. Eggfuel – don’t ye have the Scots for that still, the poor fools.

Must have missed the “only army personnel may comment sign”.

The Brits wouldn’t have crossed the border in case we sided with hitler. they put their lives on the line to stop europe being taken over by the nazis they should have got the respect they deserved…

Both your statements are wrong.

‘The Brits’ did indeed have a plan ‘b’ which involved taking Ireland regardless if we broke our neutrality, as did the Germans.

Also they put their lives on the line for the pay and subsequent pension. They were mercenaries, pure and simple. The atrocities the Nazi organisation were carrying out where unknown at the time, thus my point about revisionism.

The mass evacuations of Jews to death and labour camps was well understood by the allies and their peoples by 1942. A rather interesting account of the holocaust can be found in John Cornwell’s biography of Pius XII, ‘Hitler’s Pope’ (1999). Although not immune from persecution, catholic priests were in a unique position to report what was going on across occupied Europe. The church had a very effective system of communication to and from the Vatican, particularly in France, Germany, Austria, NL, Poland, Croatia, Hungary, Italy, etc.

the persecuted soldiers were willing to give up their lives so u could live yours. shame on you.

Susan. Can a comment that ends with “shame on you” be classed as “bad language” and removed. I’m really getting sick of reading it. It sounds like something a scolding teacher might say… :(

I wouldn’t say there was no moral stance on it, many people saw facism and nazism for a corrupt system with a bigoted idealogical system. After all, quite a few Irish faught in both sides of the Spanish Civil war. I’d believe more would fight against it when they seen Hitler’s policy of aggressive expansion.

Saying that, they really shouldn’t have deserted their post, they had sworn to protect Ireland, and it was a very real possibility Ireland could have been invaded and dragged kicking and screaming into the war.

Have the balls to state your name before criticising anyone.

Alan. I’m nearly coming to the conclusion we should have these types of heated conversations all using pseudonyms. We’re only human and are sometimes swayed by the profile pic and name rather than the content of the post. Just a thought.

well said Randy..I could not havw put it better myself. I knew one of thos brave men..he was a yound 2nd lieutenant in Irish army..after Dunkirk he was dismayed at our reluctance to fight..he joined the British Army..whi had lost so many officers welcomed him with open arms..he rose to captain and served in North Africa with Montys (Irishman too) 8th army and then fought through Sicily and Italy. He followed his conscience..put his life on the line in the fight against pure evil and was an inspiration to me..a real hero. I knew others too who just simply left here and joined up..d day veterans.

Develera was offered unity within 10 years of allied victory to join war effort..but chose to let his dislike and disdain fir Churchill to cloud his judgement. we may have remained neutral but we were neutral on allied side..downed raf and usaf aircrew were spirited across the border while luftwaffe were interned. the air corridor across donegal another example so.at least dev did a little

Colm, with all due – Ireland had been promised unity before and the British reneged on the deal. Once bitten….

Colm. How was Britain going to deliver on this “promise”? Hadn’t they already made promises to the unionists? Don’t admire Dev but I couldn’t blame him for not believing a word of that nonsense.

And what of the lives of their countrymen that would have been in danger had the Germans invaded here?

im.sure dev wldv welcomed them with a smile and a cead mile failte judging by his condolence visit to herr hempl after hitler committed suicide

“Now that’s just a bit Irish isn’t it?”

What an exceptionally ignorant comment to make!. It w

I am not a military historian, but I seriously doubt very much that gas would have been used. It failed in world war one and it’s use was stopped, why would they have suddenly started to use it 25 years later , when it was never used on the scale you elude to in the entirety of world war two?

Emmmmmmmmmmmmm ………. a lot of FG’s aligned themeslelves pretty heavily along Facist lines (blue shirts) … Were they misguided or just wrong … ??? FF aligned themselves 100% behind the galway tent … not giving two fiddlers about anything … except money … were they wrong or misguided …..
Labour have not once demanded a public inquirey into the bloody slaughter from the Dublin/Monaghan bombings … misguided, or looking after their ministerial pensions …Gilmores wife got almost 500k from selling a piece of land worth 50k at todays value for 500k and then sought another 50k for another scrap of land that wouldnt be worrth 5k today.

For the soldiers that deserted, i would want to know the circumstances under which each of them deserted … did they refuse to murder civilivilans like the brits did on bloody sunday or were they just cowaredly? I hate this broad brush stroke aproach to labelling people. Some people comsider Bobby Sands a terrorist, while others consider him a freedom fighter ….. each to their own ….!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And remember the law can be an ass! Our current law supports the rich, used to punish and scandalize the poor, as destitute! Family law= Rome Law

And that’s the truth.

Em, I know the “war is over”. However, it does not alter the facts. If you desert any army, you are punished for it. So why then do we have these continual attempts to make Ireland feel guilty over this? The British would have done the same to anyone who desserted theirs. This “oh, you need to move on” thing does not mean we need to alter our views on everything, and this is one of them.

Michael. I think that comment to Dave was more than a little harsh. It does feel like we Irish are shrouded in shame regarding our independence and Irishness. It’s one thing that I’ve always admired about the British although it can be a bit extreme at times ;)

It’s like as if it’s the great unmentionable to take Ireland’s side in any debate and sometimes we can be made feel like we’re terrorists for expressing any signs of patriotism. I’m not addressing the latter part of this comment at you. Just saying it always seems to be the case.

Here’s my feeling on this.
I had several uncles who fought Hitler in WW2 and returned maimed and a shadow of what they were. They deserted no army, betrayed no cause and were proud to be Irish fighting to keep a despot from our shores. They were Republicans and proud to be Irish and to stand proudly beside comrades of many nations in what they saw as their bound duty. They were hero’s to me and instilled in me a respect for freedom and the Irish men who fought at home and abroad for this most precious cause.
As I said they they deserted no army and betrayed no cause and held little respect for those that did. But they were treated no better in this country than the ones that did. The hid their medals, discarded or gave away their mementos of war (some to me) and tried to get on with life in a country that turned it’s back on them.
They had no respect for the deserters and felt they brought shame on the honest efforts and sacrifices of true fighting men. I am proud of my uncles and value greatly their example and what they thought me.

I would pay to find out what problem 3 people had with my comment. Really.

John. You’ve already got 2 bashes for saying that. Wtf. When is this country going to grow flucking up and be able to talk about this without all this “shame on you” sh!t???

His uncles weren’t deserters. They were probably penniless and needed money to feed their families. Would ye cop on fgs. This country had been ravaged for want of a better word…

I really could not care less what Michael said Reada. He does not know me, and certainly does not know how strongly I feel on improving relations with our nearest neighbour. But that does not stop me having zero time for the revisionist nonsense eminating from certain quarters that holds Ireland somehow culpable for acts which any other nation would have commited. In this case, what would the British or anyone else have done to anyone who did desert their army? So, Michael, kindly take your condescending attitude elsewhere. I dont need you to tell me that the conflict is over, and neither do I need anyone to use the stock and trade response of “oh you have not moved on” just because I smell some hypocracy on this one.

Thank you Reada.
My uncles weren’t penniless and they were unmarried. They were following in the tradition of a long military tradition in the family involving campaigns at home and abroad. As you may well be aware many soldiers who fought for freedom on Irish soil learned their military skills on a foreign shore. My uncles were soldiers of rank who were committed to fight for freedom against a real threat to this country and committed and swore on their honour to do that.

Ooch. Touched a nerve or two there old boy. Interesting that regardless of our nationalities and backgrounds, many here seem to share common family legacies. Wont go in to mine here. Suffice to say, like most Europeans, I’m a mongrel.

Anyhow. Isn’t the best kind of soldier the one that deserts? Peace & love…

You’re not a mongrel Michael, you’re one of the gentlemen on this forum. But you’re also a bousie and you were out of order on that point. No time for sweeping things under the carpet either. Nothing wrong with talking. And deserting soldiers in a neutral country deserting to an army at war? You’ve lost that one Michael. But I still like you! Ya can’t win ‘em all!  ;)

Btw I didn’t smack you but I can’t say you didn’t deserve it. HNY

As a lover of irony and paradox I see your point. During WWI conscientious objectors were nicknamed “Cuthberts”…

The thing to consider when we use the word ‘invasion’ is that there would have been an enormous difference between the motives and methods of the Germans moving into Ireland, versus those of the British/Allies. In my opinion, the Germans would have been seeking to take over Ireland with the eventual aim of invading the UK mainland. The British/Allies would have been moving into Ireland to stop that happening, as the Irish Army would not have stood a chance. Hitler was no respecter of neutrality and you’d a fool not to plan for all eventualities, as was Churchill. What you could not be sure of is what would have happened if the Germans had been repelled, but I am pretty confident that all allied forces would have left after hostilities, as there was no reason for them to stay. The only reason they stayed in Germany/Holland and Belgium post war was to defend against an attack from the Eastern Bloc…..even though they would been in Calais in about 24 hours!

Yeah. The American federal reserve!

The men who left to join the allied armies were brave, heroic and we should be proud of what they did when they fought tyranny. However the State also had to show that soldiers could not just leave their posts and join a foreign army. I agree that they were harshly treated by Dev(no fan), but would any government of other country have things differently? In many countries at that time (and now?) they would have been imprisoned and/or executed.

If they deserted to fight against their own people then I’d fully agree that a severe punishment would be appropriate for them but not to fight in an army against fascist dictators!

It’s “monopoly” money John. It’s made out of thin air. But I do think this is for another thread. ;)

Ireland’s neutrality during WWII was somewhat ambiguous. You have to understand that we had just experienced our War of Independence which was followed by a terrible Civil War. Given what we had been through I think we could be excused for our stance on
deserting soldiers. Nothing was really known at the time of the full extent of the atrocities hitler had done.

I think Dev was right to remain neutral while it cannot be argued he sided more with the Allies.

The soldiers that deserted knew what they might face as do soldiers in any army.

Don’t have much admiration for Dev at all but thought his rebuttal to Churchill was inspirational. He owed us that at least after the fiasco of sending Collins to London as a negotiator!

If they had been deserters in the British army and deserted to the IRA during our War of Independence I think they’d have faced a worse fate!

I think hindsight is a wonderful thing and time for a bit of understanding. What do you think Michael?

Damn. Forgot to say “cue thumbs down”. No need as it turns out.

Agree with you Réada. And wouldn’t it be even better if all countries took a neutral stance on warfare. Although I’m not suggesting the Irish State’s position was pacifist.

With regard to atrocities, and hindsight. The mass evacuations of Jews to death and labour camps was well understood by the allies and their peoples by 1942. A rather interesting account of the holocaust can be found in John Cornwell’s biography of Pius XII, ‘Hitler’s Pope’ (1999). Although not immune from persecution, catholic priests were in a unique position to report what was going on across occupied Europe. The church had a very effective system of communication to and from the Vatican, particularly in France, Germany, Austria, NL, Poland, Croatia, Hungary, Italy, etc.

My friend Michael. Different times and information wasn’t getting out to the public the way it is now. These soldiers knew what they were doing and were lucky the consequences were so light. I won’t repeat myself re what those consequences might have been had they been in another army…

But I’m with you all the way on the neutral stance on warfare. Warfare makes me sick to my stomach but it doesn’t remove my capability of understanding and looking at situations in the past and present where people react violently to situations. It wouldn’t have been possible to “love” hitler into submission! Do you? That’s rhetorical. You don’t have to answer.

I guess not. He wasn’t my type anyway.

On desertion. I’m not in the business of defending British foreign policy or its armed forces in any regard. Equally, I don’t see the point in making comparisons between Ireland and Britain. Given what any combatant will have gone through in any conflict, I can see no justification in condemning them and their families to social isolation and worse in the name of that wonderful phenomenon called nationalism. It enthrals and appals that nationalism, a creation of the so called “great powers”, was so readily adopted by the countries that wanted independence. And that those countries continue to define themselves so much by their former status as the occupied. Funny old world…

It is a funny old world Michael but one loves their sisters and brothers more than their cousins. They can still love their cousins tho. My nationalism does not take away my ability to love other nations. Pride in your country and a sense of self esteem does not mean you hold other nations in a lesser regard. For me, my irishness is an identity I love, like my name. 

But the truth is still the truth and it must be spoken. It’s time Ireland shrugged off the shame it still carries with regard to its history and its present. We have to grow up. 

We’re both psychic. Both back for a gawk at same time. Lmho