No.

It seems every story on here about the church is slanted in a negative way. Maybe it’s time to write articles which reflect all the good being done by the church, as well as their efforts to right the wrongs of the minority of the clergy who are guilty of wrongdoing.

It begs the question why you’d read something so offensive to your sensibilities.

Sad to listen to comments on here from members who don’t read the story but instead are apologists for the organization . If the story was about any other corporate company or indeed a td or government nothing would be said . Last month a picture of a crucifix as an illustration was removed on request by a member here and another apologist and it was about a priest in brazil who was an abuser . Stop looking for a defence all the time and understand the pain , hurt and anger in people who have been destroyed by the lack of understanding and empathy from the organization . What do you suggest as a sub Ed on the story . ” the church disagrees with the statements made ” ” the church is denying the statements made ” or maybe ” the church forgives the liar for false statements ” . It’s simple , she made a statement and they are hitting back with another statement . Let the intelligent mind decide who is telling the truth and stop looking for agendas in illustrations and sub eds .

Sorry… murderous? I never heard that one. It is a serious allegation, you better go to the gardai with it so the murderer can be charged….. who was it??

Niall – I would say that a spokesman for the Catholic bishops has “clarified” or “disputed” would be a fair way of presenting it.

You work in the media. You are well aware of how this works, you are well aware of how the framing of stories shapes public opinion. So do the editors of The Journal… Should everything related to the Church have to have a negative slant?? Is that responsible journalism?

By the way, what makes you think that I didn’t read that story???

@bethehokies in my humble opinion, the catholic church’s stance on condoms is indirectly murdering millions in Africa who contract aids… So ..murderers

@Dave: Your comment suggests that the churches stance on condoms is the sole reason for the aids crisis there. In my opinion a lot of the blame has to be put on the people themselves with their lack of self control.

So many things end up coming back to the Church and AIDS… There is so much to be said on this, but I will keep it very brief…

The people who do not use condoms because of the Church’s teaching are also the people who live monogamously because of the Church’s teaching. In other words, those who follow the Church’s teachings on condoms do not need condoms because their sexual behaviour does not put them at risk of catching HIV. It is farcical to imagine that someone who is having a sexual encounter contrary to Catholic teaching would then follow Catholic teaching on condoms…

oh is that a fact Father Knowles, whether there monogamous or not , missionaries in these places ban the use of condoms, thus allowing the spread of AIDS , thus the death of these misfortunates… instead of doing the right thing and handing out condoms in case someone decides to stray. in conclusion if one kills one person or millions there still a murderer.

Dave: Presicely HOW do priests ban condoms in these places? The UN and other agencies swamp Africa with condoms. There is no shortage of them. Please, let us stick to the facts.

Almar , Using the word ” Clarified” insinuates that the person who made statement , made an incorrect statement . Her statement was open to conjecture and also to her own observations . I agree that the original Sub Ed does throw a negative spin on the story but the dogs in the street and many groups have suggested the seminar was a PR stunt at best . The invitation of the Irish women was to sweeten the Irish ahead of the congress here in June . You say the church receives negative press but i suggest that they deserve the negative press they receive by the very fact that they have brought that upon themselves over the last number over years with the constant defense of the indefensible .

I’m sorry Melissa, the majority engaged in a very dishonest cover-up of the few and they did this at the very highest level over a long period of years which facilitated further and further abuse. They avoided scandal of the institution plain and simple until the constant reports highlighted the systematic cover-up. Now they are paying the price for their own failings, losing their moral authority along the way. Is it any wonder? Their teachings have been consigned to the margins simply because they refused to move with the spirit of the times. They hung on to old ideas instead of dynamically interacting and listening to what people really wanted. They banned good theologians to the margins saying their views were not compatible with Catholic teaching. What have we ended up with? A diminished Church forever consigned to the margins only serving those with a very particular view of how the moral order should unfold. All the head guys who have presided over this decline are still in place. These guys are accountable to no one. They still have much wealth – just look at the amount of land they have around South and North Dublin. Who owns this land? Do we? Who gave them the money to buy such property to begin with? We did

Richard, no, not ALL trouble. That is a generalised sweeping statement and the church did a lot of good as well. Some clergy abused children but so did members of families and other people from different sectors of society.

Fact , the C church has tried it best to get out of their sins with a little slap on the wrist ! They are one of the richest bodies in the world and could have made it a lot easier for the victims ! So I just can’t believe people want to look at the good they do when they only patch repair the bad !! Jokers and thats why I changed religion

@DF: good luck to you if you find a perfect religion.

Very good Sheelagh. Complain about a generalised sweeping statement and then proceed to try to generalise the abuse across society as a whole.

The “the poor deluded fools who come on here to defend them ” know there is more to the church than priests and bishops and its the likes of the same who will guarantee what the so called ‘con-men’ are responsible for is not repeated.

Rommel the statistics are there and everyone who knows anything about child abuse know that most cases of abuse happen WITHIN the family, nothing generalised about that

@ Sheelagh
See title of this thread. Is it about abuse in general? Or are trying to turn it into a discussion about child abuse as a whole in order to lessen to impact of abuse within the church?
Yes of cousre I know most abuse happens within the family, but I also know that a child is 1.25 more likely to be abused by the clergy or religious than their biological father (Savi report).

well said .

the catholic church is dirt.. and people who defend it are deluded in the extreme..

Ed: I’m all for criticism, and let’s be honest – there is a lot of justification for that criticism. In my opinion all of the bishops in Ireland should resign, including Diarmuid Martin.

However we should stick to some facts. The fact is that since he started to receive the files in 2001 (he didn’t receive abuse files before then) Cardinal Ratzinger has been one of the greatest reformers in this area in the Church. Certainly he hasn’t done everything perfectly, but there have been huge improvements over that time. Of course, much of this has been a result of media pressure. Pope Benedict has PRAISED the media and welcomed media disclosures of abuse because it helps clean up the Church.

It’s also a fact that the child protection policies currently in place in the Church have been praised by statutory bodies here and in the UK as models of best practice and as superior to the State guidelines. The problems arise when priests and bishops don’t follow them; normally these are the priests and bishops who disobey the pope generally. More needs to be done to discipline or remove those enablers.

Let it also be clear that those of us who call for balance accept the extent and the horror of abuse. But those who suffered are not well served by the sweeping generalisations often found here and elsewhere.

You do not speak with a forked tounge Neither do I. Perhaps, we have something in common.

The Catholic church leaves us with no choice but to tar them all with the one brush because the hide facts and move the filthy perverts around the country or to a different country to hide their filthy crimes. How could anybody have the slightest amount of trust in an organisation as corrupt as they are? If they want to be accepted as individuals then they will have to learn to expose and help to prosecute these filthy perverted sick bas%^*ds that they continue to hide and protect. If that day ever comes I will consider giving the organisation the time of day but until then I will avoid their kind and I Will Brand Every single one of them from their leader right down to the priest as a Paedophile because if you protect one of those sick fcuks then you are as guilty as the offender in my book!

@roblin: what other organization makes its employees laminate their the letter to say they are garda vetted and publicly display it? the gaurds? army? teachers? you??? still that is what s expected of roman catholic priests in some dioceses. A priest has only to be accused and he is stood down from him job, even if there is no criminal prosecution. There is no place for child abusers in the church. Know what you are talking about before you say something ridiculous.

So they are Garda vetted? So what? My wife is garda vetted because her work takes her into contact with children. It’s common practise.
What’s your point? They’re hardly going to be still active if they already have a conviction are they?
You say there is no place for child abusers in the church, fair point, but there is still a place for those who enabled them and covered up for them.

Rommel: I hear what you are saying. However, increasingly there is no place for those enablers. Remember, bishops in Ireland who had no connection with abuse cases have resigned because they did not challenge the status quo.

Is there more to do? Yes, of course there is. But it is moving in the right direction. Maybe not as fast as some would like, but it is moving and has moved a long way.

Robin Banks – I would draw your attention to the Cloyne Report which has praised the Church’s child protection guidelines and says that they are far superior to those of the State. Similarly, British statutory bodies have also praised the Church’s guidelines there as superior to those of the British State.

@ adam lyons

My grandmother Anne who is sadly passed away now and her 2 sisters , Maggie and Mary were interred in an orphanage run by the “sisters of mercy” when they were 3,4 and 6.

They were made to work all day making stuff to be sold in catholic souvenier shops.

They were constantly hungry and endlessly beaten.

One day one of the nuns pushed Mary down a stairwell and killed her in front of Maggie.

They buried the child in an unmarked grave in the grounds of the property and pretended she never existed.

Visitors would sometimes come to the orphanage and Maggie would try to show them where her sister was buried.
She would be shooed away and the visitor would be told that ” she’s a bit mental that one”

when the visitor had gone Maggie would be beaten mercilessly, a beating that an adult would find unbearable.

But she kept doing it with every visitor because she loved her sister plain and simple

eventually they managed to have Maggie committed to Mullingar mental asylum due to her “delusions” about her “imaginary sister ” where she deteriorated into genuine mental illness after all she had been through and the conditions in the asylum.

my grandmother Anne escaped the orphanage and married a man.
She wrote a book about the whole thing which nobody would publish at the time because it was about 12 years before all this sort of thing became common knowledge .

She did however continue to badger the sisters of mercy for years until finally they agreed to exhume the body of her little sister so she could be buried with dignity according to my gran’s wishes.
On the condition however that no further action would be taken ( sound familiar?)

when i was a kid i saw my gran physically beat the local priest down the garden path with a broom on several occasions he came to call spouting shite. i did not really understand what was going on then as i was a bit too young but i am so proud of her now as she did this while all the sheeple around her looked down their noses at her and tottered off to mass each sunday.

my gran and her sisters were starved and beaten for years , made to work at a time when child slavery had supposedley been outlawed in this country, Mary was murdered in front of her sister Maggie who was then wrongly commited to a mental asylum for standing up to the nuns and never denying her little sister’s existence. the only reason my gran survived was because she escaped.

I have only typed out a brief summary…My gran wrote an entire book.

The worst of it all ?

This is only one story out of THOUSANDS..

So Adam, forgive me if i offend you when i say :

The Catholic church is DIRT! and anyone who defends it is DELUDED in the extreme…

feel free to smile away at your leisure …

@Almar
I would like to draw your attention to some of the findings of the Cloyne report.
Main findings from the Commission of Investigation
Bishop John Magee misled a previous inquiry and gave a false account of how he was handling allegations
Between 1996 and 2005, the diocese failed to report nine out of 15 complaints made against priests, which ‘very clearly should have been reported’
‘The most serious lapse was the failure to report the two cases in which the alleged victims were minors at the time the complaint was made’
While the dioceses ostensibly supported child protection procedures, it was ‘never genuinely committed to their implementation’
The ‘diocese put far too much emphasis on the concerns of the alleged offenders’
The report says Bishop John Magee must take primary responsibility for the failure to implement the procedures
The Catholic Diocese of Cloyne was ignoring the church’s own guidelines on child protection as recently at 2009
In most cases gardaí were not informed of child abuse allegations against clergy
Monsignor Denis O’Callaghan ‘stymied’ the implementation in Cloyne of child protection policy, and told the Commission he was ‘very disappointed’ with it
Monsignor O’Callaghan first withheld the identity of a perpetrator from authorities and then attempted to have a particular garda officer investigate it
In what the report said was ‘clearly and unequivocally’ a child sexual abuse case, the Commission says it cannot understand how the Monsignor concluded no sexual abuse had occurred
The Vatican and its representatives are also criticised – the Commission says the Papal Nuncio replied to its request for information by saying he was ‘unable to assist you in this matter’
The garda response comes under the Commission’s microscope – on one case the Commission says it does not accept there was a proper investigation of the complaints, despite the fact the gardaí insist an investigation took place
The Commission also reveals how an allegation was made against Bishop Magee himself in 2008 by an 18-year-old who claimed he was embraced and kissed on the forehead by the bishop

While the behaviour was deemed inappropriate, it was found not to be abusive by church and State authorities. The report concludes the case was dealt with appropriately

Guidelines are not much good when they carry little or no sanction for ignoring them.

Rommel: I am well aware of the contents of the Cloyne report.

You are correct – guidelines only work when they are followed. And they also need sanctions. Agreed.

One of the problem we have in Ireland is that we have (and have had for many years) disobedient priests who think that they know better than others, including the State and the Church and the Pope.

Thankfully those kinds of priests are now ageing and dying.

ponythegringo: If your story is true (I have to rely on the word of an anonymous poster on the internet) then it is dreadful, awful, scandalous, whatever word you wish to use. Certainly I do not dispute the possibility that the story as you tell it could be factually true.

However, there always remains a distinction between the Church and its members, even if those corrupt members seem to be numerous and even if they sometimes seem to run the whole show.

For every person who was corrupt and an abuser, there are so many more (both past and present) who truly manifested what the Church is meant to be about – love. Sadly, there will always be evil in the Church and in society. Sadly that love will be hidden at times. But that remains the essence of what the Church is meant to be.

The Ireland that your grandmother grew up in was not a Catholic country by and large. It was run by a clerical caste that were infected with the heresy of Jansenism. That is one of the reasons why the love was nowhere to be seen It still haunts us today.

Please remember that Catholics do not worship the Church or the Pope. We worship Jesus Christ, and try as best we can to follow His commandment of love. It makes no sense for us to abandon Jesus because of the corruption of Judas.

@Ratzo: you are absolutely wrong to make such an outburst against catholics. its the “an entire nation of Irish Catholics continue to silently worship” who hold the church to account. The RCC is not a mob of cretins. I am amazed to read some of the posts here. People go on about the church brainwashing…..most people who lash out against the church churn out the same old stuff, post after post, its the closest thing to brainwashing I have ever seen in my life. You haven’t the foggiest idea of the catholic church. If you have any dealings with a parish you will know how seriously child protection is taken. If you don’t you cannot possibly expect anyone to take you seriously.

not sure who has the original quote but i remember christopher hitchens saying something like ‘without religion good people would do good things and bad people would do evil things but to make good people do evil things you need religion’. religion has caused some of the most monsterous incidents in human history and to deny that is very ignorant.

Almar
Would you classify John Magee as one of those “disobedient” priests?
I would. And I also find it astonishing that he served as private secretary to three popes!
While I can respect your spiritual beliefs I cannot reconcile them with your defence of the church.

Yes, Rommel, I would classify Bishop Magee as disobedient. He didn’t follow the rules and didn’t care enough to ensure that others in his diocese did as well.

As for being secretary to three popes, well unfortunately that doesn’t confer perfection (or even basic goodness) on a person.

When a person discovers what Catholicism actually is, when they discover the way it is actually meant to be lived, they are generally shocked at the state of the Church in this country. It is hard to blame those whose only exposure to Catholicism is their local parish or their “Catholic” schooling for rejecting the Church. The typical experience of Catholicism in this country is a dispiriting, pale reflection of what Catholicism is meant to be.

Please be aware that when people like me defend the Church we are defending what it teaches and the ideals it stands for; we are not always necessarily defending the bishops or the priests, not a few of whom neither believe nor practice what the Church teaches.

Well said and absolutely spot on!

I salute you sir!

Fizzy. As a practicing catholic I respect the frankness of your comment and respectfulness of your tone. However your assumption that Catholics or people of faith are somewhat simple not correct. Faith and reason are not in competition. Both can exist together. Believing in god does not come from ‘delusion’ and it does not limit the horizons of a curious mind. Im catholic, educated and open minded. Faith is not a shackle. If someone doesn’t have it or want it they have no right to dismiss those who have as fools. Let it be noted that most of the tragic events of human misery in the 20th century were committed under the auspices of atheistic regimes: alot more recent than
Crusades, witch hunts and inquisitions referred to frequently here.

Faith and reason cannot co-exist in a logical mind.

Believing in God does come from a delusion. It requires the rejection of science, simple logic and reason in order to maintain a belief in something with no proof of existence.

Faith and reason cannot co-exist in a logical mind.

The beauty of non-belief is the acceptance of others delusions without the impulse to intervene.

The “shackle” of belief is the overwhelming obligation to convince all others that your chosen religion is right, without providing any logical evidence. For this very reason I would never attempt to argue with a religious person or engage in any form of debate. There is no point in debating unless logic exists on both sides of the argument. Nor could there be any worthwhile outcome from such a pointless exercise.

If you can somehow believe that most of the tragic events of human misery in the 20th century were committed under the auspices of atheistic regimes instead of in the name of religion then you have chosen to ignore all evidence which suggests otherwise. You have decided that in order to maintain that your beliefs are superior and that you are right, you must ignore the atrocities carried out in the name of Islam, Sharia law, Israeli/Palestinian conflict, Catholic paedophilia and more importantly it’s inability to accept full responsibility when proven guilty, Magdalene workhouses, the Catholic reponse to the African AIDS epidemic (I could literally go on for hours here) and every other atrocity which would lead any logical and more importantly impartial observer to believe that the VAST majority of human misery in the 20th century has been caused either directly or indirectly by religion. But because of your beliefs you choose to purposely ignore such evidence and reject any opinion which will allow the possibily of you or your religion being anything less than 100% right.

To do this suggests that religion does indeed limit the horizons of a curious mind.

Any belief you have which you knowingly choose to retain despite overwhelming evidence which proves your belief to be wrong is a delusion.

Almar: What you meant to say is that The Journal is manifestly not representative of YOUR BELIEFS.

If the number of Red/Green thumbs showed an overwhelming support for the catholic church and religion in general then this result would not conflict with your beliefs and you could happily accept it.

However, when the Red/Green thumbs showed an overwhelming condemnation of religion, you simply could not accept this because your beliefs will not allow you to do so. When a religious person is presented with any evidence that may disprove their own belief in any way, it must be dismissed and rejected immediately and without question.

Therefore you must reject any statistical data from The Journal completely, regardless of whatever evidence is provided. If you cannot easily dismiss the data itself then you must dismiss the sources from which the data came and also the method of acquiring the data. If a survey of 10 people showed that 8 out of 10 people think religion is ridiculous you would need it to be 800 out of 1000. Then if someone printed that survery you’d need it to be 8 million out of 10 million. And so on. Basically you just reject the findings no matter how many people contribute, purely because they don’t correspond with your beliefs. You tell yourself they are wrong so you can continue to be right. This is known as delusion.

Thank you my friend. I really have nothing to add. You have said everything that needed to be said. Well there is always more to be said, but in the meantime well done!.