The reason means testing is unpalatable right now is that it creates expensive administration, which can negate a lot of the savings which would arise.

As a result, more borderline families might not get the benefit as you would need to cut enough to cover both administration and the desired saving.

What’s needed is centralised means testing for all benefits, so that the administration cost can be shared. Until this is set up, however, I can’t see child benefit being means tested. The centralised third level grants system, SUSI, is a step in the right direction here. I could see this being scaled up to a grants system for school-going children too, which would replace child benefit for children over 5. Then, you would have a universal child benefit for infants, with means testing applying once the kids starts school, until they complete their education. This could be continued into the college grant system, if a child goes to university, meaning a continuation of benefit instead of a brand new means testing

Not every child goes to college, my daughter is 11 her academic age is 5/6 she is never going to see a university let along attend one, have a child with special needs then to be honest your more than experienced enough to comment

Ronan, a very simple solution would be to introduce a high level cut off point… I’ll throw a figure or of 60k single and 100k couple. You put that figure ‘saved’ into developing a high tech, low man hour admin system this year. Come next year this system should be big free and ready to roll out. the big problem I see with means testing is an inflexible public service who want extra money every time they are asked to learn something new, or do something different. Its ridiculous in 2012 that the government can’t have computerised systems set up, based on everyone pps, which is flexible enough to balance the social aspect of our tax and welfare policies. Taking ?10 off everyone obviously affects the worse off.

#bug free

Nail on the head Adrian.
It’s our PS Unions and the lack of any work ethic in the Civil Service that prevents any advances being made. They still operate the ‘not taking my job’ ideology and it holds us all back from moving into the 20th Century.

Means-testing of all benefits could be a reality in a few years which would front-load the cost and spread out much bigger savings over time. Governments rarely look beyond the next general Election however which is also an issue.
But mainly any such work would involve the unions demanding allowances and all sorts for the workers to implement anew system as it seems and work practice change is not part of ‘core-pay’ or ‘core responsibilities’
Try that line out in yer regular workplace….

Social welfare is means tested, after the first year !!

Why is means testing so unachievable and expensive in Ireland and yet perfect acceptable in every other western democracy that pays this kind of allowance or similar?

It can’t possibly be more expensive to administer means testing than it is to pay out millions to people who don’t need it.

It’s a cop out. Just means test the damn payment and put the money where it’s needed.

A simpler solution is just to make it a taxable benefit.

most things are means tested so why not child benefit, if you’re on a high salary you don’t need it….simples – maybe not I read in the Indo last week how Pat Kenny who earns 940k plus a year can’t afford to give up work because of investments he made during the boom…. muddy waters in a world gone mad

@ Ronan
The reason means testing is unpalatable right now is that it creates expensive administration

What a load of Bolix. We have these things called computers these days.

Forget means testing. That just means hiring more civil servants. Tax it, so those for whom it’s the icing on the cake pay tax on it, and those for whom it’s a desperately needed essential get to use it.
What is this Irish passion for means testing? Do we still want the landlord to walk in and lift the lid on the pot to see if the poor have meat and should pay a higher rent, as was the practice in the 19th century? This is the 21st century equivalent.

Don’t make sweeping statements about the work ethic of civil service. Sick of people presuming that all are the same. If that were true then all private sector is same. Which I know it is not so in short unless you know for a FACT that all civil servants don’t work.
Stop posting rubbish

Wealthy must pay their fair share of Taxes,which are at a 25 year low.

No they’re not? That’s completely untrue!

Well done Ciaran good old public sector and union bashing. They’re the reason the country’s in a mess not private sector banks and bad FF decisions. I’m surprised you don’t blame them for the poor performance of Ireland in Euro 2012.

Unless the same means testing is linked to grants, farmers and self employed will not be effected,

But the private sector SHOULDN’T HAVE BEEN BAILED OUT.

That’s the point.

God I really do wonder if people know anything about economics

Couldn’t agree more.

This is simply the laziest way of making savings. Sure why bother complicate things by means testing or reforming the system when all is needed is a sweeping cut to every child? Lazy shower of useless……………

so much for the best interests of the child,, my ass,, they dont care about kids,, everyone was sold a pig in the referendum

What? When does my pig arrive?

@Ciara, yer pig is to be means-tested.

It’s a pig of means? Brilliant.

Anyone who comes on here spouting that savings through means testing would be negated by the huge administration costs of the means testing process should be stopped in their tracks!
What a load of BS!
We have the most bloated civil service in Europe fgs.. Get the 50,000 office staff in the HSE to do it .. Anyone .. Who cares.. How come they can means test dole and student grant applications!!????? This is another example of how NOTHING has really changed under this government and why almost all hope of a new mature republic is lost…

Cutting Child Benefit, less than a month after championing a ‘Child Protection’ Referendum !! Hypocrites

All means testing does for cb is makes hard working people not have children and people in the welfare class have more. It incentivises the welfare class to have more kids, get a bigger house of the council etc…

Means testing is expensive, you could cut at fifty thousand , but that as usually will only catch paye, self employed and farmers will find way out

I guess your right, need to think before I speak,

Means testing is the only fair option.

@John…tell that to the PS Unions.
The greatest barrier to productivity this side of a hole in the head.

Good points there. This is a European lick ass government tho and all they see is austerity. Expect it to continue.

great points ronan but what about those who have children that have yet to reach school age.no CB till a child is 4/5 is harsh

Thanks for Reading “The Sun” it’s a great work of fiction since LOTR

@ Ronan , some really good ideas there . Don’t think anyone in power would have the intelligence to follow them through. But it should be means tested first . that would bring in plenty & leave the poor alone for once.

@Cormac,

You’re dead right, I didn’t think it through all the way. Perhaps leave the universal benefit for children under 5 (or until they start school, whatever’s appropriate)? I mean, the initial years are very expensive so I guess even the reasonably well off feel the pinch at this point.

@ Ronan

1. Add up the cost of food, staff, equipment, power, heating, building/hiring of space in necessary – and more… and it would add up to FAR, FAR more than the amount each parent gets every month!
It would be in truth, another MASSIVE bill – one much larger!

2. Free school books would also have to be means tested (give free books also to the well off?) and there also would have to be a watchdog regulation system in place to see that the book companies would not be trying to rip off the government by they thinking they are on to a good thing with such a system!

3. As above – means tested and separate watchdog system to ensure non-ripping off of state payouts/vouchers!

4. Sounds nice but does NOT put food on the table, clothes on their back and keeps them warn in their beds!

5. What?

————————————————-

The allowance is used by the far bulk of people for heating, clothing and food. Creating even further massive bills and money draining systems (which WOULD be larger in amounts) on the state is NOT going to help at the present time.

Poor off parents need every cent they can get now – there is too many already in debt.
300,000 already in arrears in regards heating bills alone!

Not that this government gives a toss!
They don’t!
They are still too busy lining their own pockets and unsecured bondholders!

Great ideas there Ronan and, to address Cormac’s concern about kids under 4/5, maybe find a way to allocate some of the diverted funding to reduce pre-school costs.

I fear that, just like many other ‘ring-fenced’ budgets (eg. carbon tax was to be offset by the reduction in excise but this never happened), the money saved on the abolition of CB would not find it’s way to your very worthy ideas above.

Another issue might be getting the unions on-side to tackle the ‘extra’ work (eg. who will teach the daily PE in each school), ‘disruption’ and ‘health & safety’ issues involved.

However, I believe you are thinking the right way and it would be interesting to put your ideas to the DoF & DoES and get some feedback, have you tried that yet?

@ronan
just after i posted i read your reply to another post addressing it. I think CB needs to be reformed and just a standard cut is a cop out. if say we went with your plan to remove CB altogether (dont agree with it but for arguement sake ill run with it) instead of paying CB it could be put into better child care places for the lesser well off and those mothers who wish to return to work. ok to address biggins concerns re extra cost, while it make cost more to provide places think of the extra revenue the state would get from the mother back working.

Great ideas there Ronan, I’m all for child benefit but the child needs to benefit from it, i.e. don’t give out cash as I’m sure it gets spent on non-child related items.

Who earns 80k? I’m on 12k and generaly use the child benefit to pay bills, so that my child gets to eat and doesn’t become homeless. Governments need to cut their wages in half, theyre on a lot more than the British polititions. That would save millions for a start….. Leave child benefit alone.

Janice, you raise a valid point here, we have too many TDs that is a burden on the state, we should reduce the numbers, we need less that 100 TDs.

@ Biggins

GAH! I just lost a big costing post I did (thanks journal programmers), but the highlights were:
- I took numbers of school children from here: http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/otherreleases/2008/cdygpeople2008.pdf and subtracted 5% for private school kids (779,000)
- I can buy a nutritious hot meal in my unsubsidized work canteen for a 5er. I reckon a portion of food and school milk can be had for that. I multiplied number of primary students x 183 primary days and added it to number of secondary students x 167 secondary days.
- I assumed 300 euro per kid, on average for books (goverment to push suppliers on this)
- I assumed 100 euro per kid, on average for 1x trousers and jumper

Cost of school dinners: 689m per annum
Cost of 300 (average) euro book subvention: 246m
Cost of 100 (average) uniform subvention: 78m
(Off the top of my head) 100m extra for PE teachers and quipment
And adding 100m to bring down the cost of child fares and cost of school buses

gives a total costing of 1.2 billion. Current cost of child benefit is 2billion. Plenty left over to fund child benefit for under 5s and a long term PPP repayment for the cost of building gyms and kitchens.

Some good ideas there but unfortunately this would mean my electricity bill wouldn’t be paid in the Winter months. Our child benefit is mostly spent on bills and generally keeping the house and car running. It should be means tested. I know a lot of people who have never touched their child benefit and have it in a separate account. While it is nice for these parents to be able to give this to the kids when they’re grown up, it surely means that they are able to do without it. They can pay their bills and have a good standard of living without it.

All good points, however your only children at the schooling age can benefit from these. What about the sickening childcare fee’s? are we to offer free childcare too??

Your points are good however there is no cover for children between 0-4 yrs

Thanks Gavin, addressed in the mire of the comments afterwards.

Overall, I think child benefit is a symptom of a wider disease we have in Irish social policy. Rather than providing real state services, and addressing societies problems, we throw universal money at people through:
- dole
- allowances
- tax breaks
and expect them to pay for services themselves (sometimes giving that money back to the government) when they don’t quite have enough to do it. This gets mixed up then in a mess of means testing etc.

When people say “Ireland has more dole than the UK”, people rightly reply that in the UK they have access to free services etc. We need revolution in public policy to:
- provide housing, not spend money on rent allowance to slumlords
- provide free medical care, not medical cards spending money on administration
- provide free education, not allowances that don’t cover the costs of back to school adequately

Enough is enough. When you throw money at these problems, only some of it goes where it was intended to go.

I would add that the state should look to move away from giving cash, move to a welfare card food voucher (food stamps) system instead, with photo ID embedded onto it and a pin. This would ensure the money is put directly back into the economy, instead of a savings account or being misspent.

We have to ask ourselves too, should the tax payer really be paying for people to have kids? Wouldn’t it be better to scrap the system and lower the tax rate instead. This wouldn’t be possible during the current depression, but once the economy picks up it should be consider, while keeping a safety net for extremely disadvantaged families.

Your use of the word “free” is quite hilarious.

Again, nothing is for free. Where are you going to get the money for this?

@ Michael you sent your mail about the “Free” to me . Confused !!!! I am Sure it was for someone else, just too many comments in here to see who you were trying to direct it too. ;-)

Siobhan that is the problem in a nut shell. I’ve heard a number of ministers referring to a fair and equitable budget over the last week. If they make an across the board cut on child benefit then the ministers are either lying or have so little grasp of reality for some families in Ireland it is truly frightening. Part of the problem is I think that we have a government of elderly people who have no direct contact with normal families anymore.

2016 can’t come soon enough…

I know Kerry it’s scary!! It is common sense to means test, it would even save the government money!! But no, they constantly cripple those less fortunate!!! Shame on them!!!

yep isn’t that absolutely disgusting giving these people state money and they loaded. sick banana republic we live in.

@Christopher

State money isn’t pixie dust. It’s the accumulation of taxes, the majority of which is paid by high earners. While I don’t agree with universal child benefit on principal, all state spending (deficit aside) is mostly funded from the high-earning people you don’t think deserve any benefit whatsoever.

“I don’t earn as much as you, stand for search”

so many of you posting here blame the govt for the proposed cuts. no govt would consider cutting child benefit if they had a choice.. the sad fact is that the troika pulls the strings here.. they dictate to the bunch of spineless weasels in govt what cuts to make.. this country owes 25 times what we as a nation raise in tax.. that’s the problem, well part of the problem anyway.

@Frank know that but at the end of the day there is plenty of areas they can cut from & take from. Wont even go into it & wouldn’t know where to stop.

Frank, we are in the shit hole that fianna fail put us in. Simple as.

Frank,

The single largest contributor to the debt is the tax cuts that Fianna Fail and Fine Gael and the Labor passed between the 1980’s and 2012. They added 10 billion to the deficit. They have added 1 billion to the deficit in the last 2 yrs since Fianna Fail lost. These “fiscal conservatives” want to extend that part of the debt even more.

The second largest contributor is the economic downtown. When people don’t have jobs, they can’t pay taxes. Additionally, they receive unemployment benefits, some receive child benefit thus raising the costs of these programs up. Remember that this economic downturn occurred while a Fianna Fail was in the office. The conservatives love to blame the Left, but there is nothing to support that claim.

The third largest contributor to the debt are the promissory notes to Anglo Irish Bank. Fine Gael is the only Government in history irresponsible enough to relent into paying it and surrender Ireland’s position to the ECB.

But Blueshirts don’t want to cut the main drivers of the debt. They didn’t like unemployment benefits and tried to cut funding for basic entitlements while taking on more government workers. They didn’t want the tax breaks to end and most oppose the tax breaks on the wealthy.

@Joe well said.

Ah I see we have a guest speaker from the Stalin school of economics today, so you are going to tax people 90% for lending you money, yes that will work. You could tax the oil and gas at 90% also, but the revenue it would generate wouldn’t buy you a bucket of spit.

Noonan last year scrapped a 90% tax on Bankers bonuses. This government are repeatedly at the center of these self-inflicted wounds to the financial stability of Ireland.

There is no accountability. None.

in relation to taxing gas and oil finds at 90%.

why would an oil company even consider drilling if all they were going to make is 10%. the search for and then extracting of oil and gas aint cheap and requires vast experience. whats your suggesting when the oil companys decline to drill in ireland. take lads off the dole, give them a boat and let them out searching. and before you do, dont compare ireland to the likes of norway etc,

@ Pierce it’s just a “example” we have 1.6 trillion worth of gas and oil off our coast if we were to tax some of that it will get us out of a hole and stop kids going hungry and homeless. . . .oh and the bondholders i’m sure they are the same people who own the gas and oil. , we are talking about VERY VERY WEALTHY PEOPLE . . Do you know who the bondholders are ? And do you know who has taking the 1.6 trillion worth of gas and oil ?

@ cormac it’s just a example . .10% of 1.6 trillion is a lot = 160 billion . . they are making a lot of money at the fuel pumps . . should we tax them ?

Damien €1.6trillion of potential resource, it cannot be monitized or taxed until somebody risks many millions of euros trying to recover it! Would you Still do the lottery if your winnings were taxed at 90%?

they are taxed at the pumps, high % of the cost of fuel are taxes. agree that the reserves were given away cheaply. but dont think they would have gotten alot more. the company’s did take the risk of going loking in the first. if there was a small amount then the state werent at a loss.

imagine the uproar if the state forked out 10-20 billon drilling and found nothing.

America was doing great when they had a 90% tax in the 1950’s on the rich.

@ james that’s there gamble if they want to risk drilling i’m sure they wouldn’t run at a loss, im sure shell is worth trillions in any way. . if i won the lotto i would help out the simon community out or something local . .

But if you make the gamble so unattractive that nobody takes you up then the oil cannot be recovered, and it will never pay any tax!y lottery question was not what would you do with it, admirable as your motives are, I asked would you bother investing in a lottery ticket if the winnings were taxed at 90%?

That’s the point Damien, it has to be worth companies while drilling, we shouldn’t give it away and they won’t drill at a lose. The 1.6 trillion you refer to is an estimate it might be more it might be less, you don’t know until you drill. There is of course nothing stopping the Irish government drilling themselves, cut out the middle man. That would need some serious investment though, might have to go to the bondholders again and sell them some paper.

@ james would i be happy with 10% winnings in the lotto yes would i be happy giving 90% in taxes no cause they wouldn’t put it to good use , any party . . oh they sure know how much is in them wells plenty of gas and oil. .

@ Pierce they know how much is there , they wouldn’t be there if there were sucking on the sand . .with the fracking tech gear they have and the hi- tech gear . .in any ways they would write of there losses against taxes in anyways . .so do you think Pierce they should pay no taxes at all ?

Don’t do it Pierce, I’m outta here!

i’m out too, it was a good debate with two right wing troll’s . . .look after the homeless and the kids going hungry this xmas . .

Can’t resist James, sorry.

Yes Damien that’s exactly what I said, nobody should pay any taxes at all, least of all lovely cuddly oil companies. As a a citizen of this country it’s your oil and gas, set whatever rates you like. There comes a tipping point where it becomes unprofitable to drill for oil and gas, it is dependant on many factors, cost of drilling, oil prices, transportation and of course taxation. So you can have 100% of nothing or a percentage of something, your choice.

Right wing troll, you’ve a bloody nerve, I am trying to convey to you that oil and gas cannot pay taxes, they are inanimate, in order for our economy to benefit we need to make the recovery of these assets worth the while of the people capable of recovering them. Then we will profit from our resources. What’s more you suggestion to tax bond holders at 90%, indicates a complete misunderstanding of the market. Bonds are issued at exactly the minimum rate investors are willing to lend at, therefore if you lower the rate the investors will flock to lend money to lower risk higher return economies. Then my dole cheque cannot be cashed and my children starve! So if you think I am a right wing troll it is only because I am protecting my family from economic illiterates such as you!

James you moron i just had to answer this one. . who owns the gas and oil? who are the bondholders? who owns associated press Reuters etc and controls the media and much more .. . the Rothschilds. . . economic illiterates lol . . you sound like Noonan markets and bonds . . Look after the Elite

gavin, pray to god you never get made unemployed… plenty of 3rd level college graduates on the dole in ireland today.

This isn’t about sympathy or empathy, the fake socialists here are bent on destroying this country by turning it into a welfare state. Socialism is supposed to look after the workers not the cant/won’t work brigade, all they do here is give incentives not to work. And for the record I know unemployed people, i help out how i can, it’s extremely difficult to survive on the benefits, but it’s supposed to be, otherwise why would you work, it’s not a free income, it’s survival mode till you get another job, it’s not supposed to keep you in the manner you were accustomed to when employed

Couldn’t agree more – middle income earners being screwed in this country . We pay for everything and everyone elses state handouts . I had 2 kids as that is what I could afford – why are people who never worked even in good times having 4 or 5 kids ??? have no problem with those who lost jobs and big mortgages but plenty people on welfare and disability who never worked screwing rest of us !

You can still pay for your Internet though!

internet was a gift for my daughter from my mother, who gave her a year, but passed in nov, , but my phone cut off, and my elec behind, and if pc was mine i would sell it, as i have sold everything i possibly can, and you should not be so fast with comments when you have no idea of peoples circumstances, you have no idea what it is like to struggle trying to feed a family on 200 euro a weeks, and mortgage , mortgage insurance and house insurance taken , then pay elec, and kid goes to school, pay for exams, test papers every week, i dont care about myself being hungry, i am a mom first, trying to keep normality for them, if you met me on street you would never know we are broke and in debt, but your comment was sad, and uncalled for,,

The butter mountain has been eaten!

100 thousand is way too high a threshold.

Tax allowances and credits have been going up for everybody since the 80′s. There is accountability, if you don’t like the system vote for some somebody else. A married couple who earn €100,000 will pay €34,000 in direct taxation this year which I think you will find is a rather large chunk of change.

“A married couple who earn €100,000 will pay €34,000 in direct taxation”

I was referring to SINGLE INCOMES amounting to €100,000 – not couples.

Just we are clear a single person earning €100,000 will pay €40,866.64, a married couple with one income will pay €38,976.64 and a married couple with two income will pay €33,978.64.

Those figures aren’t accurate.

To reiterate: it should be cut for Single wealthy persons earning €100,000 or more per annum. Especially given generous tax breaks favoring the 10% also.

Joe those figures are accurate, if you have different ones please show me

Effective salary for year €100,000.00
PAYE – Standard Rate €6,560.00
PAYE – Top Rate €27,552.00
Total Tax Bourne €34,112.00
Tax Credits €3,300.00
PAYE Payable €30,812.00
PRSI €3,735.84
Universal Social Charge €6,318.80
Total Payable €40,866.64
Net Salary €59,133.36

Not to mention childcare. If two parents are working, that can sharply cut an income which sounds good before taxes.

@ Joe McGarry – Do you know how many single people earning over €100,000 with children there are in this country? You’re hardly going to make lots of savings with that narrow a scope.
What about a person with the above criteria who has 5 kids and maybe lost their husband/wife and has to pay for childcare, mortgage and everything else? It can’t be so black and white as cut everyone above a certain threshold. Number of children needs to be taken into account – ie means testing.

@ Jonathan be carful not to stereotype. You have no idea of anyone’s class or personal history from this.
I am a single Mum, very well educated professional, working part time ( not by choice). I am not a single Mother by choice.

Well Natal I’m sure you didn’t vote to cut I’ll by more than ten euro then. My point was that single people or those who other wise have no interest in the children’s allowance might be inclined to vote for cutting it any more than ten euro. Bit nasty in my opinion. A lot of families need that monthly payment to keep things going. I can’t fathom why the poll stands currently as it does..

@Jonathan that’s not what you said in your comment. You very clearly were referring to “class” in your first line, not “singletons” Anyway yes the poll results do speak volumes as to whom is voting.

Yes I used the word “class”.. single people are a type of class.

@ Richard – means testing does not negate the need for people to have genuine regard for the welfare of other people it actually encourages this – the way you framed your argument is kind a leading don’t you think?

@Claire, because those peoples kids grow up to pay taxes to fund your state pension or drive the bus you will use or serve you your food, maybe even if you’re unlucky they will end up being your carer as you do not have children yourself to look after you when you are old and dependant..

Where have you been for the last 5 years ? A lot of people have lost their jobs

It’s not child ‘in case you’ve list your job’ benefit.

I have 5 children, the youngest two are twins who were born three weeks before my husband was diagnosed with cancer. We could afford them when we had them and did not have a crystal ball to see into the future! Nobody can predict their future with any certainty, I am sure that there are plenty of families who were able to afford their children when they had them. The follow on to your statement is that no one should have children as they might not be able to afford them at some point in the future!! Could cause a few problems though……!!

I’d like to know how many people vote for something that is in their own interest?

Don’t judge everybody by your own standards Gary.

Who’s judging? You.

Your comment alluding that children’s allowance is spent on cans.

Go to Tesco the morning it is paid and have a look.

Why, are you in the queue Gary? Interesting photo on your profile!

I can spend my hard earned wages on whatever I want.

Gary, I am a single parent. My CB goes towards heating costs, ESB or whatever other bills need to be paid. Stop being so bloody narrow minded. I also work in Tesco and your comment about people spending their Child Benefit on cans was about as ignorant as yourself.

This is clearly another divide & conquer, get the various groups squabbling amongst themselves issue.

While we’re doing that, we stop demanding that we cut from the top down, starting with things that won’t effect the basic needs of people such as;

2nd home tax rebates,
non essential allowances for people over ?100k( it won’t effect their quality of life) etc, the list is endless..

Then and only then should we talk about basic living requirements.
Then we need to extend financing to buy time until enough people are in employment to help carry the load, as this is the only real solution.

None of you will be happy until you have cut each others throats… In the meantime the top looks down smiling and chuckling about their good work, divide and conquer and all you idiots are the reason why they get away with it and why we are in this mess…

Cos it worked so well with outsourcing the student grants!

That is no reason to not go down the path again. As in all business, you look at what has gone before you and you make it better the next time. Good business is bourne out of learning from mistakes and striving to get better and better. Only politicians see business as a one shot process, never to be pursued again because the consequences are potentially a lost seat. Take the unions out of it and learn the lessons from the mistakes and the right solution can be put in place. Businesses are successful all over this country and the world. One shambles of a solution implementation for the grants system shouldn’t be a reason why privatization can’t work

Yeah, get anglo on the job x

Ann you have no idea how depressing it is to go out and work all day then pay for everything and everybody else’s benefits and let your kids walk home from school alone as you can’t collect or afford child care and then have the bank ringing you after all that to say your mortgage is in arrears while your neighbour on disability is heading to man utd for the weekend !! Know many genuine cases for disability but lots and lots playing the system !!

The first option was No Eileen. Something wrong with the poll though as it doesn’t show the key

It is there now ,thanks .
Strange that !

Best solution.No need for inefficient Civil service to get involved in mean testing.

Rubbish! I’m in the 41% bracket and in the last few years I’ve stopped paying health insurance, gotten rid of my land line and high speed broadband, left Sky and made do with Freeview in order that I had enough money to pay for essentials like my mortgage, electricity, food etc and I don’t even have children!

For a lot of families, children’s allowance is essential, but I’d like to see it means tested. Families also need to reassess their priorities. If it’s cut by €10 a month, then it can be offset by getting rid of Sky, or stopping smoking.

If the person earning over 50 grand a year has an incapacitated elderly parent living with them requiring a private day nurse are they not likely to be poor?

This is the argument for means testing – it’s not as simple as saying “you earn 50k so get lost”. What you’re suggesting would further upset the balance of whether or not it’s worth one’s while to work.

You’re having a laugh? So what you’re suggesting is those who do squat get rewarded on never ending comfortable cushy benefits. And those who do something with their lives having been giving the same opportunities as every other citizen in the state and earns a respectable income (50k) should get zero? Sure why would you bother getting out of bed in the morning and pushing yourself to succeed when you’re just going to be penalized for it! Hard graft and success should be rewarded not punished! Middle income families are already carrying the can for the majority!

so someone earning 50k, paying income tax, prsi, usc, prob a mortgage, or at least renting etc is better off than someone on the dole, some cases on rent allowance etc.

what if one person is earning over 50k and supporting a partner not working and not entitled to benefits. what then.

I agree with John F completely. What people forget is that the money has to come from somewhere, the middle earners pay for EVERYTHING in this country.

To get along in Ireland, you better be rich or not work at all. In the middle you get hit from everywhere. All for trying to be self sufficient and make your own way.

And all the while they are creating a social divide, why? Because when we are all arguing with each other and putting ourselves into these political groups it takes the light off the real problems in Ireland Inc. We are broke because we bailed out useless banks and unsecured bondholders. If we all look at the facts instead of back clapping and green thumbing baseless arguments. But hey dont let facts or figures get ion the way of a good rant…

Adebayo out.

The middle earners voted for kenny & co , time to reap that harvest !!!

Kenny’s divide and conquer tactics have worked well in 2 short years. It will be only a matter of time before Irish middle class families will be known in the post-Irish world rated down to just another country with an unfair distribution of wealth.

What about couple paying basically what amounts to another mortgage for child care ? Do you even have a clue what your talking about ?

thats typical scaremongering tactics geoff….. designed to make people fear the worst so the smaller cut seems “generous”. I think as an electorate who witnessed the last 4 budgets, we are too long in the tooth for that crap to be pulled again.

No