Oireachtas told: ‘Ireland already allows abortion of unviable pregnancies’

By Gavan Reilly

Jennifer Schweppe, Ciara Staunton and Simon Mills (right) attending the Oireachtas this morning.

Image: Oireachtas

09/01/13 4,640 Views 38 Comments

LEGAL EXPERTS have said that the Irish constitution already permits abortions to be carried out in Ireland in cases where a foetus has no prospect of any life outside the womb.

Experts from the University of Limerick, NUI Galway and the Law Library said a Supreme Court ruling in 2009 means that a foetus which cannot survive beyond pregnancy does not enjoy the protection granted in the Constitution to the “life of the unborn”.

The three experts, who said they had prepared their evidence to the committee independent of each other, all said a ruling in the Roche v Roche case in 2009 – delivered by Susan Denham, who has since become the Chief Justice – had determined this.

In that case, the Supreme Court ruled that a separated woman did not have the right to use embryos which had been frozen after being fertilised with sperm from her estranged husband.

The experts – Dr Jennifer Schweppe from the University of Limerick, Ciara Staunton from NUI Galway, and Dr Simon Mills of the Law Library – all said Justice Denham’s ruling meant that an entity which itself was not capable of life outside the womb was not covered by the constitution’s protection of the “unborn”.

The three also argued that the legislation being prepared by the government should also take account of cases that have not yet arisen – with Staunton arguing that the legislation should try to avoid circumstances with another case similar to X came before the courts because of a legal uncertainty.

Mills, a former GP with a master’s degree in medical ethics, has submitted a draft version of legislation which he said would satisfy the needs outlined.

The only reason more cases similar to X had not become before the Irish courts was “simply because of our proximity to the United Kingdom.”

LIVE: Legal experts address Oireachtas on proposed new abortion laws

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Reg 09/01/13 Comment reported, thank you Report this comment
There was a lady on the VB show last night who last year was refused a termination here despite the fact that the baby would not live for more than a few minutes once born. She was angry that she had to travel to Liverpool to get the services that should have been available to her here. How can a country continue to treat its citizens this way?

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  Cal1 Mooney 09/01/13 Comment reported, thank you Report this comment
  I saw her too, its heart breaking that in her circumstances she was put through that ordeal. Ref, genuinely, all politics aside, can you canvas your own party to change this shambles. All people should email all political representatives of ask parts, to get the law changed. These women, call themselves walking coffins. S are supposed to be free of church influence in this country, but stories like the one heard last night, are happening every week in Ireland.
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  Lina Stein 09/01/13 Comment reported, thank you Report this comment
  it is absolutely barbaric to have this situation .women who are carrying a foetus that is not going to survive being forced to continue full term , ,knowing all the while what lies ahead.
  people should stop dictating to others, and let everyone get on with things, I thought an element of democracy was the respect of different opinions even if it conflicts with your own…the thing is…it is tragic either way …
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Abi Dennis 09/01/13 Comment reported, thank you Report this comment
what about the 17 year old in foster care who had to get a court ruling to be allowed travel to terminate her pregnancy were baby had no brain?

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Mary Mc Carthy 09/01/13 Comment reported, thank you Report this comment
If the experts are correct then why was Savita refused a termination when she requested one as clearly she was already miscarrying and her foetus was not viable ?

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  Irish Red 09/01/13 Comment reported, thank you Report this comment
  @Anthony, Now I’m aware you’re trolling, but just cos I’ve nothing better to do I’m going to correct you. The inquest is starting next week on the Savita case, THAT’S why its gone quiet – everyone attending the hearings today know they cannot pre-empt the findings. They know they will be challenged if they use it as an example case as the full investigation has not been completed yet. Wait for the report yourself before you start thowing accusations at the pro-choice campaign!
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Mary Mc Carthy 09/01/13 Comment reported, thank you Report this comment
Surely the findings of the Savita investigation should be made available to the committee . It’s her death that sparked this investigation . Is the government deliberately keeping the results under wraps until they put legislation through?

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  Conor Farrell 09/01/13 Comment reported, thank you Report this comment
  That investigation hasn’t begun yet.
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  Conor Farrell 09/01/13 Comment reported, thank you Report this comment
  Sorry, to clarify: two investigations are still ongoing (so no results), and a third hasn’t begun yet (due to begin on Jan 18).
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  Mary Mc Carthy 09/01/13 Comment reported, thank you Report this comment
  @ Conor . What is holding up these investigations ? They are investigating the death of one woman ? How much paperwork do they have to go through ? It seems to me that they are deliberately holding up the investigations ?
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  MVM 09/01/13 Comment reported, thank you Report this comment
  The savita case should not influence abortion legalization..abortion should be decided on as a benefit or not for the whole country and not pushed just to suit a minority
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  Conor Farrell 09/01/13 Comment reported, thank you Report this comment
  Mary, what makes you think that?
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  Mary Mc Carthy 09/01/13 Comment reported, thank you Report this comment
  @ Conor … Maybe I am just cynical . I cannot understand why a investigation into one woman’s death can take so long !
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  Shanti Om 09/01/13 Comment reported, thank you Report this comment
  The tragic case of Savita actually has nothing to do with this at all. It just happened at a similar time.
  
  These guys are meeting as a result of the expert report, which we were forced to do by the ECHR, before Savita had to suffer so horrendously.
  
  So the fact that they aren’t mentioning it is kinda fair enough – they’re meant to be tackling ABC and X, as narrow as that may be..
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Dennis Laffey 09/01/13 Comment reported, thank you Report this comment
” an entity which itself was not capable of life outside the womb was not covered by the constitution’s protection of the “unborn” ”

Well if that is the case then why are we not legislating directly for that court case outcome?

This basically means that any non-self-sustaining life-form does not enjoy the protection of the rights of the unborn. This would include therefore any embryo which is not capable of surviving without life-support? That would open up abortion in Ireland, on-demand, up to quite a late time in pregnancy.
In fact it would allow such a late abortion that actually would be against it (and I am pro-choice in general). Hmmmm.

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  Shanti Om 09/01/13 Comment reported, thank you Report this comment
  How?
  A premature baby, born at 24 weeks gestation has a pretty good chance of survival.. Hey, my partners father was born at 24 weeks, in the 1940s, in a field hospital in a 3rd world country – and he’s still here and strong..
  
  No country has abortion up to 40 weeks, the maximum limit is usually 24 for the reason outlined above and these babies will always be born rather than aborted.
  
  Besides that I agree with the point you are making.. From discovery up until at the very least 21 weeks there is no way that foetus can survive without the womb of its mother – so this means it is not ALIVE yet and thus has no “life” to protect..
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Anthony Hesketh 09/01/13 Comment reported, thank you Report this comment
These are very rare cases and hard cases make bad law . What about the Irish woman who died last year in London following a legal botched abortion?

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  Irish Red 09/01/13 Comment reported, thank you Report this comment
  Even if it was only one, that one person deserves the backing of the law.
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Tom Newnewman 09/01/13 Comment reported, thank you Report this comment
Google , Post Abortion risks if you really care about risks of suicide
Post Abortion Stress Syndrome (PASS)
In extreme cases, the PTSD that results from a controversial abortion could lead to suicidal thoughts or tendencies and would require immediate treatment. It’s important to note that this is not a common or expected symptom of PASS, but as with any form of PTSD, it is possible.

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  Sam Rhodes 09/01/13 Comment reported, thank you Report this comment
  Ignorant scaremongering of the highest order. I’ll just leave this link here. Again. nhttp://m.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/dec/09/abortions-mental-illness-survey
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  Jessica Hyland 09/01/13 Comment reported, thank you Report this comment
  ‘Post Abortion Syndrome’ is a ridiculous myth perpetuated by anti-abortion lobbyists who want to shame women into feeling bad about having an abortion. It does not exist in any credible medical textbook or study.
  
  Some women regret having abortions, that is true and sad. Some women also regret having children. Neither option is ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ for everyone; all depends on the free and uncoerced decision of the woman herself.
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  Anthony Hesketh 09/01/13 Comment reported, thank you Report this comment
  Nonsense spouted from the mouth of a pro abort as usual ! You’ll be telling us next that abortion is not about killing !
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  MVM 09/01/13 Comment reported, thank you Report this comment
  You can find a professional that can claim anything its the bigger picture of the life it could save
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MVM 09/01/13 Comment reported, thank you Report this comment
These imbeciles haven’t a clue what they are doing,have any of then looked at the legislation?

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  Maria 09/01/13 Comment reported, thank you Report this comment
  They are experts – I think they know what they’re talking about. I’m pro-life btw.
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  John Johnson 09/01/13 Comment reported, thank you Report this comment
  Well i know who i rather listening to, informed experts from either side of the debate or people hiding behind made up accounts who are experts on practically everything.
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  MVM 09/01/13 Comment reported, thank you Report this comment
  You can have all the experts you want all its doing is costing money..is simple adopt UK law on abortion..I’m pro abortion the anti abortion is nonsensical in this day and age..
  @john its a real account and the name is my initials good input into the debate…not!
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  Mary Mc Carthy 09/01/13 Comment reported, thank you Report this comment
  @ john . The real experts are those women who had to travel to the UK to get terminations in order to save their own lives . Are they going to hear from these women too ?
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  Anthony Hesketh 09/01/13 Comment reported, thank you Report this comment
  There are no experts John . Just professional groups who want power to control us underlings !
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  John Johnson 09/01/13 Comment reported, thank you Report this comment
  Like most things in life there is more than one side/opinion, those women should have their voice heard, but so should the legal and medical experts, whose opinions legislation will be formed around, ridiculing people who are experts in these fields, which are directly related to this issue is just silly
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  John Johnson 09/01/13 Comment reported, thank you Report this comment
  @Mary, if we adopted that approach then only people who lost a loved one in an accident would bee considered experts on road safety, etc etc etc
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  Vincent Dolan 09/01/13 Comment reported, thank you Report this comment
  @Mary- what about those who travel to the UK because a pregnancy is inconvenient? Are they experts too?
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  Tommy C 09/01/13 Comment reported, thank you Report this comment
  Experts on their own bodies,feelings and how a pregnancy would impact their life in a very negative wY. You however, have no insight into the lives of these women or how they feel.
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  Jason 09/01/13 Comment reported, thank you Report this comment
  Pro-Abortion? It’s pro choice.
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  Vincent Dolan 09/01/13 Comment reported, thank you Report this comment
  @tommy- I balance that against the life of an unborn baby. You should try that.
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  Vincent Dolan 09/01/13 Comment reported, thank you Report this comment
  @Jason- are “pro-choice” in favour of abortion being legalised? Yes? Well then they’re pro-abortion and should have the courage of their convictions.
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  Mary Mc Carthy 09/01/13 Comment reported, thank you Report this comment
  @ John . I never said that these women were the ONLY ones to be heard from but their opinion And experiences should be listened to .
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  Tommy C 10/01/13 Comment reported, thank you Report this comment
  Vincent, the life of a breathing sentient woman trumps that of a non independent foetus every single day.