“The Household Charge was hesitantly paid by about half the home-owners” would have been more appropriate IMHO…

And why can’t we? Take him on I mean, he walks the streets, eats in restaurants etc. why can’t we make his life bloody hell? People need to realise that what RBB said is true – “One has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws” – Martin Luther King Jr.

@Ceiteach Mac…..
Thats all he needs when trying to rescue the country is clowns following him round while he’s trying to eat!!

What did you expect would happen? You would continue living in your armchair socialist world and nothing would change ????

Do you *really* think that Enda Kenny *actually needs* all this hallse in his life ??

Rich Boy Barrett is a champagne socialist from a wealthy middle class family. His ‘policies’ are developed to a university debating level.

Would you ever cop on and get out of the way and let the real workers get on with rebuilding the country and stop your whinging

At least Barrett as you have acknowledged can debate unlike Kenny who ran from every offer of a debate during the recent referendum offering different excuses each time. It remains to be seen if Kenny will ‘rescue’ the country. History will tell us that in the end. But to borrow one of Kenny’s phases if I was writing Kenny’s ‘report card’ it currently would be NG. Waffle and little else I’m afraid.

@Kerry,
Of course was never going to engage in debates with a raggle taggle buch of one trick, gone at the next election, populist TDs.
He’s the *Taoiseach* !!

This isn’t dramsoc night in DCU, its governing a bankrupt country.

He will never win a popularity contest thank God, because if that was his approach, we would be back where FF had us 3 years ago.

Look at the bigger picture here *please*

I am and Kenny isn’t in the picture. As a life long FG voter that party has with their actions removed me from supporting them. I’m sorry a leader incapable of debating an issue which he said was the most important decision since joining the ECC (as it was then) should not be in power. Sadly we see that more and more every day where ever he appears.

Those figures stand corrected

The Department of Environment persists in stating that 1.6m households are liable for the household charge. This is patently not the case. It is houses that are liable for the tax not households. If a person owns two houses – one they live in, one a holiday home, they pay twice. They wouldn’t do that if it was a tax purely on households. The household charge is a tax on property. There are 1.994m habitable housing units in the state – they are all liable for the tax with some exemptions. Here is some useful data compiled by the Campaign Against Household & Water Taxes from official statistics and Dail questions. It gives a much more thorough picture of the liabilities relating to the household charge than the governments line, and that is the case whether you are for or against the charge.

1 Housing units in state 1,994,845 CSO

2 Unoccupied/vacant housing units unsold 18,636 Housing Development Survey, DECLG, 2011

3 Renting social housing 129,033 Census 2011, Table 39.

4 Renting voluntary housing 14,942 Census 2011, Table 39

5 Being bought from Local Authorities under shared ownership scheme 23,547 Census 2006. Doesn’t appear to be in Census 2011.

6 Mortgage interest relief 19,000 Keane Report

7 Housing units in unfinished estates 34,000 Money Guide Ireland

8 Number of landlords who registered Non Principal Private Residence (NPPR) in 2011 183,551 NAMAwinelake

9 Number of NPPR registered in 2011 for the NPPR Tax 339,431

10 Number of housing units for which the HHT was paid on 1st June 2012 915,408 Dail Question Ref No: 27986/12. Clare Daly.

11 Numbers waivered for HHT on 1st June 2012 17,167 Dail Question Ref No: 27986/12. Clare Daly.

12 Number of housing units registered to multiple accounts on 1st June 2012 332,900 Dail Question Ref No: 27986/12. Clare Daly.

13 Number of accounts to which more than one unit was registered on 1st June 2012 106,332 Dail Question Ref No: 27986/12. Clare Daly.

Figures calculated from above

14 Number of housing units liable to register for Household Tax (HHT) 1,808,687 (1-2-3-4-5)

15 Number of housing units liable to pay the Household Tax 1,755,687 (14-6-7)

16 Total number of property owners liable to register 1,469,256 (14-9)

17 Number of housing units actually registered on 1st June 2012 932,575 (10 + 11)

18 Number of housing units not registered on 1st June 2012 876,112 ( 14-17)

19 Number of NPPRs registered assuming the family home was also registered on the same account. 226,568 (12-13).

20 Number of property owners registered on 1st June 2012 (Accounts with LGMA) assuming each account also has the Principal Private Residence registered. 706,007 (10 + 11 – 19)

21 Number of property owners who have not registered. 763,249 (16-20)

22 % of property owners not registered 52

These figures seem to be correct, although there are some exception that need to be taken out of the total number of liable housing units (exemptions 2, 5, 6, 7 – all small, but not in the public domain; might account for up to c.20K units)

With thanks to Mick Murphy (National Treasurer of the Campaign Against Household & Water Taxes) for sending us the information.

Rob Kitchin (source – irelandafternama.wordpress.com)

Excuse that we must pay HouseholdCharge cos it’s needed to fund local services,they’re CURRENTLY funded CENTRALLY! How’s that changed?!

If they want to introduce a household charge, or water charge, they should remove a tax from elsewhere that no longer funds these services!!

A government elected on FALSE promises can essentially LEGALLY pass any law they want,no matter HOW unfair!! Scaring people with “breaking the law” line does not morally legitimise it!

This is absolutely ridiculous hyperbole. Martin Luther King was talking about racial segregation and the racist abuse of African-Americans. To compare a €100 annual charge to this is frankly a huge insult to Martin Luther King. If the so called “left” of Ireland would actually read any literature on civil disobedience, they would see that leading figures such as John Rawls say that civil disobedience should be a last resort against cruel and unjust laws only. They should never be used against tax codes. But that would require far too much effort and work. Much better to just google a nice sounding quote.

Well said IgnoreIand!

Actually ignoreland, MLK ALWAYS faught on the side of the poor and oppressed, regardless of their skin colour. He is best known for his civil rights work for the african american people, but to contend that the great man himself meant that only black people should disobey unjust laws when he said those words is arrogant and extremely offensive to his memory, and quite frankly ten times worse than what you accuse RBB of.

Too Trueleft I think you have completely misunderstood Ignoreland’s post….

@Ignoreland , I think “the so called left” are well aware of who and what Martin Luther King was and stood for. The principle of RBB’s comment is relative however, despite your own obvious mad search for quotes to try and prove the opposite. As an unfair law whether it be imposed to curtail human rights or impose a deceitful tax on peoples homes that clearly cant afford. The fact remains Its unfair, so your comment is void. The so called right in this country (decreasing in numbers by the day I might add as your jobs go) need to be honest with themselves, Are you Irish by name only, the people that founded this state risked their lives for this country you fellas wont even risk your lifestyles.

You’re a bunch of unidentifiable commenters, this vastly diminishes your influence on the majority of decent readers here.

@Johnny Thunder. Listen here you bloody muppet. Just because you’ve a job doesn’t give you any more say than the next guy and I wasn’t aware that having a brain meant that you had to be poor or less well off. Must have missed that!? Where does it say that to agree with a criticism of capitalist society you have to be from a deprived background? Your argument is bankrupt, calling RBB a champagne socialist just shows your lack of self regard in the matter of opinion. Because it’s very poorly informed! I’d say those words are borrowed from the mouth of another ignorant muck savage. RBB has stood in the rain, the cold, and during all your favorite tv programmes campaigning against different maladies in the society you believe can be healed by another plaster being applied (Don’t expect you to understand that). Read a book or go do something that isn’t out of self-interest or for a few quid. And you just keep on hoping that your work matters…because it really does! The world would stop functioning if you didn’t stay turning that cog in the machine and nobody else could do your job!? I’d use some ‘nice’ words but I’ve already wasted enough time replying to your stupid remark. You just keep on keepin’ on…don’t think, and keep on parroting what you’ve heard like a good little worker monkey. Don’t spend any time reading or thinking just keep on punching in that card. While the rest of the people with brains will be working, thinking, and caring about what happens to the country. Who knows you might even benefit from their work!!

The scariest thing about Enda Kenny is he actually believes what he says! The man’s convinced that he’s a great statesman that has great support from his people! Deluded to the point of becoming dangerous!!!

Spot on

Wow, working 50 hours for €220.. That’s gotta be below minimum wage.. Why aren’t they on to the minister for employment about their slave labour?

Shanti, that’s a disingenuous statement. There are a large number of people in this country who take home far more than €220 per week in social welfare payments.

As is every statement about how welfare is like living the dream..
If its ok to make statements like “the social welfare in this country is a joke. Far too well paid for nothing. No one gives a crap about those who are taking home barely more than dole + benefits + allowances after working for 45 or 50 hours” then it is only fair to present the other side of the coin. Perhaps I should have qualified by saying welfare + rent supplement for a single person sharing, but cimada did not qualify their statement either, the “sole + benefits + allowances could literally mean anything too.
In my experience of the people I know in receipt of disability allowance and rent supplement, this is the average in our area. €188 + €35.70 per week, so technically €223.70, I merely rounded it to the nearest 0 (because my maths is not the best) access to allowances is dependent upon who lives with you and whether the state decides to hold them accountable for your expenses.

Do ESRI reports mean anything at all?

Is neo-kraut a word? If so, Kenny fits the jackboots nicely.

Rrb has done sweet fanny Adams for this country bar living off the fat of it, looking after the less well off my Swiss, an empty vessel.

nice 1, the misspelling nazi is in, sorry guvn’r i meant esri as you will know

If you recognise the injustices of the political and economic system in this state then why are you saying you’d gladly pay their unjust charge? :-o

Surely you see that the way to attain justice is to resist their nonsense taxes and cuts, not to gladly comply with them!?

Good for you – I admire anyone that gets involved and actually participates in politics regardless of what their policies are.
Its way too easy to lash out the simplistic vitriol here. This broad brush demonising of all government politicians like they’re Dr Evil type characters with the sole objective of impoverishing the nation for their own benefit is a depressing indictment of the level of political debate here.

I personally disagree with much of the policies and pronouncements of RB Barrett and ULA but at least they’re involved and trying to do something about implementing what they believe in.

So good luck to you with your venture.

I asked in another article about your groups links with UKIP Martin. A party full of former Tories who are pretty much a bunch of posh bigots. Care to respond?

Red-baiting much.

well, facts is facts

I guess dear leader being factually correct means we ought to give up the ghost and bend over and accept every anti-social charge that’s coming down the line and that’s being used to bail out the ruling-class!!

G’wan Fanon!

Wow, I didn’t realise we were so authoritarian. Well, except for that blasphemy thing I guess.

Another attempt to tie these two completely unrelated issues together. If the government passed a law tomorrow saying Rory Walsh must pay 100% of his wages in tax I don’t suppose you’d be too smug.

Gandhi and Martin Luther King didn’t pay vat either?

Not too impressed with what’s left at the moment.

Wallace never made that claim. Stupid comment.

No Rory! Mick Wallace is no more than a thief!!

Except he didn’t do that. He used them as examples of people who have justly broken the law. But twist it whatever way you want :)

And where exactly did Boyd Barrett compare himself to Gandhi or Luther King?

Stewart i told a different commentator on a different thread earlier today,rhe government has a report outlining savings of 500million, why don’t they achieve these first instead of goibg after hard pressed homeowners?

What do you mean, they don’t do it on purpose? Perhaps you’re right though. Most of their “decisions” look pretty zombie-like. Explain why Mayo is suddenly the biggest recipient of lotto funding, and why that has no connection with “honest Enda” being the taoiseach. Time to wake up.

I suppose you think every single person who voted yes “strongly” believed in that too do you?

As for the comparisons to other law breakers, what about David Norris, a parliamentarian from Ireland who was a pracitsing homosexual who’s actions were illegal up until 1994. He fought for the legalisation of homosexuality and won. Not everything that is legal is just or moral.

Barry the household charge has been paid for over 50% liable dwelling units this however does not equate to 50% of householders.As some people registered 30+ units as landlords.

I’d say a lot of people that paid were coerced by the Government scare tactics. Just because they paid, it does not mean they support it. They just paid.

I’m so glad such a lot of people didn’t register for this and he’s calling us lawbreakers. I’m no lawbreaker but I know what’s right and wrong and the property tax is just plain wrong on so many levels.

Don’t dare insult our intelligence!

Scare tactics, bullying and blackmail that if he don’t get the money he’s going to take it anyway by other means, is NOT wholehearted support for the yellow back streaked coward in power and/or for the charge!

…And where is Phil at the mo? In Rio at a holiday resort for a week and charging it to the state. For what? For a summit with his other five office co-workers. At 600+ Euro a night per room and other expenses, the trip will cost over €10,000

We have a bunch of robbing, bullying, two faced thugs and liars in power.
They have learned well from Fianna Fail it seems!

what a load of crap saying if people didnt support it they wouldent have paid it..nobody wanted it…people were scared into paying it same as they were scared into voting yes in the referendum…Enda Kenny has some neck having a go at anyone..

I would gladly pay the household charge if it meant Mr Philip Hogan could have a hotel upgrade. I mean the poor man, having to hard tail it in Rio on a cultural trip. I’m sure he didn’t want to go. Actually – no. But he can sniff my ar*e to see if he can find the €100. Because I haven’t got it to pay it. Simple. The puppies go hungry or his bar tab is covered. Sorry Phil – you lose. Woof

Wake up, he is giving us pocket money each week. Hello

Enda Kenny is a LIAR !!!!!!!!

Just a windbag Oliver, nothing glorious about that poor little rich boy

Haha, I’ll pass that on to Richard, he’ll be glad of the laugh. Just because he has a bit of a posh accent doesn’t mean he’s rich.

He has a TD’s salary, thats richer than most!

Claims the average industrial wage, so earns a little over €32k a year. Rest goes to People before Profit.

Is paid a TDs salary, if he wants to give it away that’s his problem

I hope you can see the flaw in your logic amazed.

€32k is more than many earn and then when you start to add on the expenses etc. I’m sure you will find he earns plenty more than that. This crap about taking home the average industrial wage is just smoke & mirrors, he still gets paid the same as every other TD out of the public coffers but he, apparently, gives some of it to the party. He is still costing the Irish taxpayer the same as every other TD and spouting BS just the same.

€32k is the adjusted average industrial wage, i.e. removing high earners, adding up everyones wages and getting an average. So by definition of average 50% earn less than does and 50% earn more, excluding again high earners.

Secondly, Richard is a member of my political party and I can tell you it’s not all smoke and mirrors. He holds himself accountable to the Dun Laoire branch of PbP and if he started claiming all the money for himself he’d be kicked out of the party.

Thirdly, the party gets paid c. €90k euro plus another c.€35k in automatic expenses for each of Richard and Joan. Then Richard and Joan are given the €32k. The rest of the money goes towards paying the wages of party organisers, posters, demonstration costs, leaflets and some goes to local community groups and charities. Some of their wages go to the ULA as well, funding the No campaign recently for example.

You clearly think he’s just as bad as the rest though so that’ll be my last post on the matter, people can make their own minds up. I know the guy and he’s not in it for money, he just cares about helping working people and socialism, creating what in our opinion, is a fairer, more equitable society.

Correct, he costs the state the same as any FF, FG or Labour TD. If he chooses to give that to the Socialist Workers Party or ULA or whatever thats just his donation, anyway add (exactly each month hmm) €1000 expenses and you’ll find he’s no pauper.
http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/members/dep25feb31dec2011.pdf

I might add that that I have no love for this government, just tickled by Boyd Barrett and the lefts hypocracy

Thats correct EMD NOT Martin, your obviously on the payroll :)

It’s obvious Martin is on the payroll. He spends his day on the Journal forums and sure many others I am sure spouting his nonsense. No one else would spend that much time unless they were being paid. He’s just the same as any paid PR person for any political party.

I’m actually a research student who is spending my whole summer typing my thesis up on his pc and likes to come onto the journal distract myself. PbP registers all its employees, I’m sure you could find out who they are and although I wish I was being paid, I’m not. I just don’t like tossers like you, I do it for personal enjoyment. For the love of trolling the right-wingers.

Haha, do you think FG is a democratically run party? No one would have a say, all those parties operate on a top down basis.

I’d say there are a fair few in labour including the 3 unions mentioned in the piece above who are against the household charge. Gilmore and co don’t seem to be listening to them.

Richard Boyd Barrett was on national radio condemning Mick Wallace the very same day the story broke about the VAT underpayment, so your comment doesn’t make much sense.

The left’s response to the Wallace affair was a bit disjointed but the condemnation was clear. Wallace is not involved in anyway with the ULA. He’s a capitalist and a tax cheat who happens to be friends with Clare Daly. Their personal relationship is none of our business and once it doesn’t compromise Clare’s politics or the Socialist Party’s principles it’s of no concern.

RBB is fighting for social justice while your dear leader heads his little vichy government in administering the greatest social injustice to befall our people in the history of the state.

Proud of your party davie??

David i’m sure Richard on the inflated wages he gets as a TD will have no problem paying for you have stated(you have proof of course),i on the other hand am working as is my wife.We are struggling to pay the bills we have at the moment.Please tell me where i get the money to pay a charge i can’t afford.Do i miss a mortgage repayment or starve my children once a week.Suggestions welcome because i don’t know.

Ah higgins jumps in to the discussion when everyone has commented and passed this story by. Then thumbs himself up. Why didn’t you join the argument earlier when everyone was here.

What mansion? I must go out and have a look. I thought he lived with his mammy and daddy like you. Is that the best you can do, first you back an unfair tax and now your complaining because someone on the left plays sport. I’d say things are very tough in FG at the moment, at least from what I’m hearing. I was wondering when you’d would surface with your usual drivel. You backed the wrong horse David, they’ll be no political career for you.

Aww David, you all upset?

And this comment from a man who follows Roy cropper on twitter !!
No further explanation need !!

So what’s are the hero’s of capitalism sitting on the back benches supporting the government earning Jerry? You know those pulling down all their salary and expenses? Might give a bit of perspective in fairness.

Gerry what party of the left was Wallace a member of that you are accusing of “ducking and diving”?

Did you not see the picture of Leo V out with the supporters in Poland last Saturday Jerry? Was hard to miss as it was on the front page of thejournal.ie

That’s a nice pink shirt Jerry. Are you taking the lead from Mr Wallace?

Leo payed his own way and owes nothing to the state ….. I presume he did not park in the Aer-Lingus staff car park either .
Clare Dalys relationship with Mick Wallace is nobody’s business but there own , however the fact of her non condemnation of Mr Wallace’s situation reflects badly on the left and is causing a huge problem for those who complain about rich developers/bankers getting off and the poor having to pay property taxes .
My pink shirt is something I wore when this particular photo was taken unlike Mr Wallace I do not use it as a cheap marketing tool

You suggesting the state paid for Wallace’s trip to Poland Jerry? No I’m sure Leo didn’t leave his car in the Air Lingus car park he probably took the government bus to the airport or a taxi being a local. I’ve got no great interest in Wallace but you know he’s earning I think around 80k as a member of the opposition while Leo is earning something like 125k is a member of the government and is meant to be helping run this country. Bottom line I guess if your going to apply standards apply them to all.