Was just thinking that and coming to the same conclusions. I think it’s only now that more of his antics are coming to light.

Is taking action because of half the army leaving to fight for a foreign power in a foreign war really so bad?

Don’t think so myself, what if an attempt had been made to annex us?

Dev was a bad egg. Stunted Irelands development for years, among manner other bogey things.

No doubt he was a bad evil man, who spawned a toxic political party and legacy for Ireland but he was right in this regard and was backed by most people on it. Even many of the people who deserted had no problem with it. Most of them said publicly, even years later that it was the extra money that they went for.

In a lot of countries they would have been jailed or shot for their act, here they got a slap on the wrist from an employer that they walked out on without as much as a note.

And would a Churchill or a Eoin O’Duffy have been better?

No but Collins would have been better, but Dev got him killed didnt he.

Dev would be called a sneaky bastard if he was alive today…

According to “Old Boy”:

“No but Collins would have been better, but Dev got him killed didnt he.”

Actually he didn’t, but this just exemplifies how most of the people here take their cue from a Neil Jordan film.

“Dev got killed him didnt he”. Jeepers! Planks.

You got that right, De Valera was a dictator, no wonder he sent commiserations to the Nazi’s on the death of Hitler. He did serious damage to Ireland and it’s only now that he’s rotting in his grave that we are seeing the real truth about him finally come to light. His bitterness towards anyone who crossed him and his mis-mangement of the Irish economy which led to the economic war with the UK, the resultant starvation and mass emigration, he caused, the handing over of Irish health, education and social policy to a dangerous and abusive cult. The best thing that could have happened for Ireland was if the British had shot him in 1916. His pettiness and hatred is shown by the way he treated the brave men who left the Irish Defence Forces in WW2 and went to fight in the real war, Dev and his cabal couldn’t even call it by it’s name, ie World War Two, they called it ‘The Emergency’, I mean wtf does that mean? it would have been a lot easier for these men to sit it out back in ‘neutral’ Ireland (another myth) but these men chose to go and fight the Nazis and for that they were persecuted by De Valera and his ilk, of course the fact that it was the British army only embittered him more, but thenthey were the closest allied army, did they also do the same to those who joined the US or Canadian forces? These brave Irish men and women who took the fight to Nazis were persecuted whilst Nazi war criminals were, with the help of the catholic church settled in Ireland after the war. Contrast that with his refusal to accept Jewish child refugees into Ireland during the war. Says all you need to know about Dev and his catholic church cohorts. It’s about time these men were pardoned, they should never have been treated in such a way in the first place. De Valera’s antics at the Irish Press also show that he was well steeped in the traditions of Fianna Fail. No wonder that same corrupt party went on to produce the likes of Haughey, Ahern and end up destroying the country just like Dev did in the last century. With De Valera as a ‘hero’ no wonder the country is the way it is!

Yup. I think he was in Bolands?? “don’t shoot me” he says. “I’m an american”.

Cute hoor!

Or something like that.

‘Cute hoor’? Such respect for a man instrumental in the creation of the State. Well done.

Amazing this pardon hasn’t come to pass yet.

Dev was a manipulator of the highest order, sending Collins to negotiate a treaty he knew would lead to civil war…. He was a well known cute hoor… And yes he claimed to be a Yank after the Rising of 1916. He was however an interesting politician and a man of his time when Ireland needed a fox…. Unfortunately his legacy is open for twenty first century analysis which is not fair.. Even though I think he overdid the whole isolationism he did instill a sense of pride at a time of abject poverty and awakened awareness of what it could be to self reliant.

Dev was selling out Irish Jews? They planted a forest in his name in Israel.

Dev had flaws but this wasn’t one of them.
“Post-war, Jewish groups had great difficulty in getting refugee status for Jewish children, whilst at the same time, a plan to bring over four hundred Catholic Children from the Rhineland encountered no difficulties.[24] The Department of Justice explained in 1948 that:
“ It has always been the policy of the Minister for Justice to restrict the admission of Jewish aliens, for the reason that any substantial increase in our Jewish population might give rise to an anti-Semitic problem.[25] ”

However, de Valera overruled the Department of Justice and the one hundred and fifty refugee Jewish children were brought to Ireland in 1948. Earlier, in 1946, one hundred Jewish children from Poland were brought to Clonyn Castle in County Meath[26] by Solomon Schonfeld.[27] In 2000 many of the Cloyne Castle children returned for a reunion. In 1952 he again had to overrule the Department of Justice to admit five Orthodox families who were fleeing the Communists. In 1966, the Dublin Jewish community arranged the planting and dedication of the Éamon de Valera Forest in Israel, near Nazareth, in recognition of his consistent support for Ireland’s Jews”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Ireland#World_War_II_and_aftermath

It makes me sad that DeValera didn’t die as a young man but this is even too much for me. Come off it Gary.

Most of the people that were calling for Irish men to join up in the fight were members of FG who were notorious for their anti-semitic rants at the time. It was not a coincidence that one of the most anti FG TD’s was Briscoe, who was Jewish.

Flanagan’s rant about Jews and Money and the Killers of Christ never stopped him from being a FG leading personality and figure right up to the 70′s.

It was out of a sense of Loyalty to England that they called for others to fight, they themselves had no problem with Hitler or love of the Jews.

Oh no! Getting lambasted with pseudo republican rhetoric…maybe back to selling An Phoblacht in front of the GPO for you before you start lecturing again? You are allowed free speech in this free nation of ours but your earlier comments were borderline anti semetic. Ignorance is a state of such bliss.

btw…did you manage to buy the two camper vans after all?

@ silentbob, he is correct, you’re lost

Attaboy Tom…encapsulated the whole issue easily and honourably. You’re an inspiration to the like minded brethren. Pity its not 1912..you could feel right at home with such views -unlike now.

It is a bit cheeky bob for you to accuse anyone else of being stuck in the past. Your views on history are most based on a mix of 1990’s war movies and 1880 world views.

My brain is about to explode. I’m not able to digest all this. I’m trying but keep getting lost.
Slow down lads

Er Bob, aren’t you stuck in 1942 or thereabouts? Or perhaps not, since your well fed modern Western European perspective on the events of WWII does not seem to be informed by any understanding of history.

Deserters? Were the Free French deserters as well? How about the German resistance? It is all about history being written by the victors and frankly as a neutral country we hedged our bets and Dev was a man who punished those mercilessly who didn’t doff the cap to his ideal of Ireland’s place as a land of the tall leprachauns…

@Richard Barry,
They were deserters of the Irish Army, it’s a simple undeniable fact, your biased “opinion” will never change that.
These men were nothing but mercenaries who proved their best ability to be selling out to the highest bidder.
Self serving opportunists who deserted their country in its hour of need.

Hour of need my arse.. The greater good called… Nazis hid behind the only following orders, you are a sheep so go back to whacking off over how you showed me….

Why am I biased? And what is wrong with an opinion? Are you the only one allowed to a straight opinion? I think there is an argument to say that some of these guys were following their hearts, some the money. Yes they were deserters technically. So were the Germans who refused to fight. They got shot. So the times would dictate that these guys got off lightly. Is it fair in the twenty first century to recognise that these guys be pardoned? Not my call… You seem to need to be a big man here so bang your chest and foresake any and all balance in a conversation and go home to your Xbox and hit the reset button when you die… The real world is a lot more complex than you would portray it…

@Richard Barry,
My ego is not in need of any pretentious displays of chest banging, my direct tone is perfectly suitable to such a serious matter.
Having served in the Irish defence forces myself I understand the implications and seriousness of desertion, to desert your nations army is for no other reason than to join a foreign army is reprehensible and unforgivable.
I presume you never served in any full time professional army and as such do not understand the seriousness of the charge of desertion or how serious it is.

I also suspect you have some vested interest in this discussion, be it an attempt to exonerate an old relative for their crime of desertion or whatever, but regardless of any attempted justification the fact remains these men were soldiers of Ireland, as such they took and oath and pledged their loyalty to Ireland and its constitution, they broke their oath and they deserted the Irish Army so they could serve in a foreign army.

That is an unforgivable crime, they deserve no pardon!

I have no vested interest and salute you for serving… My relatives also served the Empire when it was acceptable to do that… Thanks for the debate! I loved it….

If you are debating it is a good idea to leave emotion at the door…. Otherwise you are easily baited… Personally i hate the Republic and think it has failed itself in an orgy of introverted peasant like spending.. Biased, yes sir!

Richard I am not in the least emotional, I rely on logic and reason to make my points and believe I have been quite consistent in doing that.

I believe you are wrong about the Irish Republic, I unlike you, do not hate the Republic, I do however despise the gombeens that have administered the Republic into an economic doom that will last decades.
The free state has been since its inception, administered by a gaggle of self serving careerist gombeens who had zero interest in the welfare or needs of the citizens.

They created a dynastic privileged political elite which has lasted up until this day, this same cartel of gombeens continue to sell us out and chief among them are the likes of Alan Shatter, Enda Kenny, Eamon Gilmore and Micheal Martin and lets not forget the new entrants to gombeenism either Gerry Adams.

We are agreed but how to separate the institutions and gombeens from the fact that the culture is at fault…. If it sustains this crap generation after generationAnd as politic constructs are an approximation of a desired state Insee little difference between the two… I like your thinking though.. We are getting closer to agreeing….

My great hope had been the EU but we squandered that chance and the investments we made in terms of trust, education, partnership and not to mention financial were piddled up against the wall by a a few…. I do not hate the Republic i just think it has and continues to fail… I think it was Kissinger who when asked if he thought the French Revolution was a success replied ‘it is probably too early to tell’…. But I digress… Those soldiers, i really see both sides… There was a greater evil that had to be fought and if a man genuinely did desert to do that i will never fault him for that… And oaths be damned…. No oath was going to protect Ireland if we had been alone against Hitler or Stalin….

Luckily it is for a very few of them. Personally I think they should be given compensation as the starvation orders really were starvation orders these heroes came back and their entire families were blackballed not just from state jobs but were shunned from most jobs if found out that they deserted during the war

For good reasons. In times of economic hardship Irish people preferred to employ those who were loyal to the Irish State.

If someone leaves you in the lurch at your greatest need then you are not going to trust them again. That is why they were blacklisted. Lets not have people held accountable for their actions, that would never do.

Compensation?…. And if they had deserted the British army, they would have got hard labour!

Green Monkey…back to the trees with you. Not ready to evolve just yet.

I dunno if I would call these soldiers heroes, maybe they just needed work and wanted to get our of what was basically a 3rd world country.

I would like to know what the thoughts were at the time.

How many were of English/protestant descent etc?

Most of the soldiers who deserted said it was for the money and were quiet clear on that. An aversion to Fascism had nothing to do with it for the vast majority.

well said green monkey

it’s so sad to hear Irish men and women forget or cast aside our fellow country men in the north.

Remember it was 27 years after the end of WW2 that one man, one vote was introduced in the North of Ireland. Many of the politicians that called for Irish men to join the British army and spoke against the treatment of the deserters never called for one man, one vote, never called for equal treatment in society or before the law.

well said and spot on.

He stole funds from the IRA and the Irish Republic when it was fighting for its life. He used this money to enrich himself and hes family.

I do not care how he was portrayed in films.

When his colleagues were being tortured to death and shot in ditches he was living in a hotel in America pocketing our money.

He should have been shot and a note pinned to him.

Apart from that I agree with your post, and most of Ireland did at the time as well.

Were we a part of the Commonwealth back then? If so, it cant be treason…. Can it?

@Richard Barry,

Ireland fought for hundreds of years to free itself of the tyrannical British oppression that plagued our country, Ireland and its people never wanted to be part of the commonwealth, you attempt to assert their was some willingness on behalf of Ireland to accept the commonwealth as a valid entity, this was not the case.

Just like to forced colonisation of Ireland it was put in place without the approval of the Irish people.
Membership of the commonwealth was forced on Ireland pre, anglo-Irish treaty in 1921 which was also forced on the Irish people by Britain under threat of war.

These men were deserters who fought for the highest bidder, they deserve no pardon, they deserted Ireland to become British soldiers, they should have had their citizenship revoked and spent a long time in jail.

That is true…. However I see no recognition at all from you that Ireland could have taken on the Nazis….

Membership of the commonwealth was Collins idea…

…and your point is?

I dont believe anyone can deny the paradox there. Personally I’m very proud of the Irishmen who fought in both World Wars and other conflicts and peackeeping missions. But it is a head scratcher that in both World Wars Britain was effectively fighting for the oppressed victims of foreign invaders…

I see Green Monkey you may have a more Republican agenda than I do judging by your previous posts and your Twitter followings. Just as Dev considered those brave enough to leave and fight Nazi aggression as deserters, you continue to trot out the old, dated line of British aggressors etc. It’s 2012 my little simian pal and your knuckles are dragging.

Silentbob you have a problem with me because my Heros didn’t fight Kusk or Normandy but at Macroom and Crossmaglen???

No most of those on record never claimed to be fighting for freedom, they did mention money and adventure.

Did you talk to them all Stephen? Where is the source of your claim?

Common Stephen Lynch you must have links to that claim? Did you speak to my grandfather or my father when you came to your conclusions? Do you have any idea of what you are claiming?

BTW for the politically correct neither of them ‘deserted from the emergency forces’ in case you were wondering.

I wouldn’t say heroes, more like foolish young men, lured by the thoughts of a shillin, manipulated into risking their lives fighting as mercenaries in a war started by colonial elites who never even got as close as 1000 miles from the frontline, nor did their sons. As usual it was mostly poorly educated working class men used as cannon fodder in pointless wars.

The Irish of both Green and Orange suffered the highest per capita dead of any force on the Allied side. The Scots were in second place. Bullet stoppers, that is all they were viewed and treated as.

What about the other ‘colonial’ forces such as the ANZACs? Think you might find the per capita was highest from Australian and New Zealanders.

No Bob, the facts do not bear that out. You need to read a history book, instead of just getting your information from the movies.

Why is it you never hear much about the (Southern) Irish 10th (Gallipoli) or 16th (the Somme, Passenchendael, Ypres) divisions in WWI?

Because they were effectively wiped out…. convenient, eh? I’m glad the days of supplying cannon fodder for our foreign overlords are well over.

Tom Rooney I’d suspect your don’t have a clue about what you are talking about.

Censored. My grandfather served in Gallipoli. What’s your point many Irish people would be aware relatives served in the areas you mentioned.

I think my point is clear, as is Tom Rooney’s. It’s just a pity you can’t see it. Respect to your grandfather, but did you ever hear the phrase “lions led by donkeys”?

I agree that some were…. Some might have been following their own honour or family history… Maybe they should have simply quit and emigrated….

@Stephen-Lynch I would appreciate if you can you supply a source for the following statements
“The Irish of both Green and Orange suffered the highest per capita dead of any force on the Allied side.” and “No most of those on record never claimed to be fighting for freedom, they did mention money and adventure.” and “Most of the soldiers who deserted said it was for the money and were quiet clear on that.” Thank you

Religion and nationalism…quite a heady mix here this evening. What matter a person’s faith or none? What matter those who fought in foreign wars and causes? It’s the old opinions that seem to be still present in Ireland…anti British, ultra nationalist and now hints of anti semitism. Back under the rock you individuals crawled out from.

R. Fanning wrote: ‘One might question [...] the liberating value of war for a people who has so recently emerged from revolution followed by a civil war and in whose midst the IRA still propounded the creed of violence …

What had WWII to do us? The last clash of dying European imperialists.

“Army law ” lol isnt the ” law of the land ” it only applies to legal fiction army personal numbers ! , I await your rebuttal as Alan Shatter has already acquiesced :)

@Joe Power, of course Military law is not the law of the land, but it is the law of the Military, which these men signed up to out of their own free will, they also deserted their country out of their own free will, desertion is one of the most serious offences in the Military and these men were nothing but opportunists lured by money.

They had no qualms about deserting Ireland during an emergency and they should never be pardoned, Shatter should be ashamed of himself for even attempting this, it is a disgusting act by a gombeen self serving politicians, an abuse of power.

did this history class also include invasion plans by both Germany and England ?

Did you read that in the Daily Telegraph “Joe Sixtwo”?

No it is only an opinion that I formed based upon what I know about him.

And I’m guessing you ‘was’ ?

Ha ha, clowns if you have a different point of view, very mature……

Chelsea joe, I was in Bosnia in the 90s wiith the US special forces for your info.

@richard your an awful spoofer lol

Sure that Pub Richard harks from is only a warzone.

Tom…you seem to be spewing well worn phrases and comments there…colonialism, 1916, The King’s Shilling etc etc. Have you not at least moved onto Maoist rhetoric by now? Maybe Post Colonial? Is there anything original from the Republicans visiting The Journal tonight? We’ve got far more important issues than crying into our pint about past wrongs.

bob I’m not a socialist, if you knew anything about Irssh Republicanism, you would know.socialism only crept into main stream Republicanism in the late 1960’s. You’re here pushing an anti Irish agenda trying to defend deserters from the Irish Army, do you regularly defend criminals, or is it just the ones who happen to fall on the side of your agenda?

Tom…is that your Mam calling? It’s way past your bedtime and tomorrow is a school day! Santa’s watching you young man (or maybe it’s the Branch).

The branch would be more concerned with internal threats such as people pushing agendas contrary to the Irish constituion and the validity of Irish law. I uphold the validity of these, it’s the very basis of my argument.

Think its better you stayed silent, bob

silentbob2012 I wouldn’t worry too much about auld Tom. His convoluted writing and funny ideas soon devolve into ad hominem arguments and the assertion that any other viewpoint is somehow “anti-Irish”
You really shouldn’t feed the trolls..

@Glen, your hypocrisy is hilarious, in one breath you falsely claim I made ad hominem attacks (I doubt you know what that phrase means) and in another breath you attack my character without addressing the valid points I made. Try some critical thinking, stop getting emotional and use some logic, but I suspect that might be an alien concept to you.

Tom in your reply quod erat demonstrandum. Thanks for validating my point.

@Glen, your agenda is clear, much like the other descendants of Irish deserters, you’re clutching at straws in a pathetic attempt to justify the opportunism of your Grandfather or some other relative and falsely try to dress it up as heroism.
There’s nothing heroic about deserting your country during an emergency to go and fight in wars on behalf of foreign governments.
I too have relations who fought in both WW1 and WW2, I’m not sure if they deserted from the Irish Army in order to do so but if they did, they deserve no pardon for it.

Tom, wrong, but it must be comforting living in a world where issues are so black and white and history is distilled into cliches. Take a broader look and consider the historical context…

@Glen_Straiton, Your pro British, Pro Union, Pro monarch view is clear for all to see.
A simple Google search of your user name gives an insight into your agenda.
You jump at the chance to attack all things Irish, begs the question, why would an English guy who lives in London be so concerned about Irish affairs? Well Glen Straiton, why?

I’m not English and I live in Dublin. I’m not ‘anti-Irish’ just anti-ignorant.
You attack anyone that doesn’t share your narrow view of the world, using convoluted language.
Tom, I’m sure in your universe it’s great,and everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts. Your opinions are ironically anti-Irish.
Good luck Tom

your comment just shows how backward some people are in this country, this pardon is long overdue, these men risked their lives to fight against an enemy that was rampaging it’s way through Europe and the government at the time couldn’t get their heads out of their backsides and see the bigger picture. those men didn’t deserve the treatment they got when they returned.

Well theres a foreign power in charge now based out of Berlin and funny thing is FG aka Frankfurts Gestspo see no problem in this as afraid of loosing ends quisling kenny his gold star award.

James
desertion is desertion if the same thing was to happen today they would rightly be charged with desertion not worshiped as hero’s.

WWII wasnt some glorious war against evil. your very native not to realise history is written by the victors and the victors will don’t highlight their own monstrosities.

I’m not attempting to say Hitler was good but why do you think the German people backed the Nazi party you should read up on these things before champion deserters who sold out for a few coins from the English crown.

so are you trying to tell me Hitler and the Nazis were not evil, if Germany had invaded Ireland where would we have gone for help, England of course. desertion is not a matter that should be taken lightly but for a civilized country these men and their families should not have been treated the way they were

These men made it easier for Ireland to be invaded by Germany or by the British Empire, by deserting their own people to fight for a foreign army.

You’re the who’s backward, the sun set on British Empire long ago. Some of us are proud to be Irish and looking forward to the future.

Andrew, it is completely ahistorical to assume that the deserters were motivated by anti-Fascist attitudes. All the contemporary accounts suggests that the higher wages and a sense of adventure were the prime motivations. It might surprise younger posters to know that anti-Fascism ,per se was confined to the hard left , Communists and their allies in 1939.Most British soldiers were fighting for simple patriotic reasons or for the British Empire as Churchill urged.

Agreed Brendan. There is a lot of historical revision here. People are trying to assign values and motives to these men that they never exhibited and that were not prevalent at the time in Ireland or Britain or America or that most of them never expressed in writings.

Schlock Television is the driver behind most of this.

It is quit untrue to assert that opposition to the Nazis was confined to the “hard left” by 1939. “sense of adventure”! That might have been true in 1914 but not 1939. It was less than a generation since WWI. People did not desert their own army which would mean criminal sanctions and discrimination at home out of a mere “sense of adventure” or “higher wages”. This is self-serving refusal to recognise Ireland’s share of war guilt. After Pearl Harbour Roosevelt tried to get De Valera to join the US in the war in which thousands of young Irish Americans were fighting in the Pacific, without success. Standing aside while millions are exterminated is not a morally defensible position.

Pilip

Spelling and manners could both be improved.

*would have been

In which country in any of the years 1939 to 1945 would they have been shot Pilib?

And In Hilter’s Germany you’d have been shot for voicing your opposition to the Government like you are now…

You seem to like the benefits of what these guys fought for…

Pilib do you reckon those men committed treason? On the individual level they were offered better pay and conditions by joining the allies, the bigger picture is they fought a very just war against a fascist. While this war was happening deValera was passing legislation regarding the use of tampons in this country which is why there is a luxury tax on tampons now. It is a disgrace how this country treated these soldiers and just another blow to dev’s reputation. A pardon here is long overdue

Robin, US soldier Eddie Slovak shot in France by his own regiment in 1945 for desertion. German and Russians where shot on site for desertion.

The maximum penalty in today’s US military for desertion is still death, although usually it’s around a two year prison sentence.

These Irish deserters should be celebrated for their part in World War 2. Their crime of deserting their country should not be forgotten. Operation green was Hitler’s plan for Ireland. If he had of succeeded. What resistance would we have had.

Robin,

The Soviet Union shot any soldier on sight who was deserting. Many other nations during the war would have either shot or imprisoned those deserters upon arrival.

In fairness Pilib makes a reasonable case with regards to desertion. Desertion is one of the most serious crimes in any military force. The men in question could have court-martialed for their actions in deserting, with far more severe consequences than the loss of pensions or access to public jobs. There was a genuine fear of Ireland being invaded early in war.

Look up the definition of desertion –
the abandonment of a “duty” or post without permission and is done with the intention of not returning, from an area of danger to an area of relative safety.

So while many Irish soldiers deserted their military posts they were going to an area of greater danger.
Also many Irish fighting with the allies weren’t enrolled in the Irish military, however they were still ostracised on return from the war.

Desertion in military law is the desertion of your post without lawful authority. However, as you rightly point out, these men put themselves in danger by fighting for the Allies. For this I think a pardon is right & reasonable. The need for an apology, I’m not so sure about. However the Minister feels the need for it to be said, so be it. I wasn’t aware that the State ostracized non-deserters for fighting with the Allies. That of course demands an apology, if it was the case.

While i welcome posthumous pardons for perceived wrong doings, what sickens me is to see people commentating that only for these people, we wouldn’t be able to express our freedoms. Tell that to the Pat Finucane family, Rosemary Nelson family, Ballymurphy and Bloody Sunday families….
All of these murders were carried out by the British army or as a result of collusion with the British Army, who did not like the views or civil rights aspirations of the very citizens they claim to have fought a war for.

Our own Governments also murdered people during and after the second world war, for trying to fight the oppression of almost half the population in the North.
So in summary, people who say that we should applaud the Government for their belated actions, and how much we owe to these people … need to know what we should be thanking them for overall.

@Pilib & Jason Desertion from the military was not an offence punishable by death. The cases you refer to apply to desertion during combat which is an offence in a different category, this country was officially at peace between 1939 -45.
@Pilib Ireland was not a belligerent in WW2 we had an Emergency we were at peace and Irish soldiers were kept busy cutting turf and doing other menial tasks. There was never a danger of German invasion after September 1940 and the case for invasion by the Allies is way overstated by the “what if” brigade.
The vast majority of the soldiers that deserted did so when it abundantly clear that Ireland was not going to take part in the war and that the Allies were turning the tide. The sense of injustice was not that they did not deserve to be punished for the crime of desertion, they did desert and they should have been tried and punished for that in the normal manner. Instead these men were subject to a vindictive piece of legislation that was also very unjust, just read the debate and you will see what I mean.
http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail1945101800027?opendocument
What I do find laughable is that this Act could be passed because it effected ordinary mainly working class men (Officers were exempt) and that during the present economic crisis that the governments since 2008 have constantly cried that they could do nothing about those who really brought this country to its knees committing economic treason (Officers/Bankers exempt clause). Some things never change.

@Stephen – While you rightly point out that deserters from the DF would not have been executed if found guilty, would you concede that these men could potentially have been imprisoned for their actions?

And thanks for the info that officers were exempt….some things never change. :)

@David Of course they should have received the proscribed punishment at the time whatever that was. There are cases where some of these soldiers came home on leave during the war and were arrested tried and imprisoned by the Irish authorities. Then after serving their sentence these men were arrested tried and imprisoned for desertion on returning to their units in Britain. After the war these men still had the starvation order applied so in effect they were punished on the double.

@Cal1 and what sickens me is people telling one half of a story………

@Stephen Gill @David Durnin That is a disgrace to have a go at Officer’s of the DF and compare them to the bankers that have destroyed our country today based on an absence of facts. If you can show me one example of an Officer who deserted during this period I would be interested to hear it? I don’t know but I am going to guess that there were none and that there was no expectation of any occurring either and perhaps that is why they did not need to legislate for it. Army Officers always have been and still are extremely loyal to the state and would have found it extremely reprehensible that someone would desert their Nation in a time of grievous emergency.

Essentially this is a philosophical dilemma. If somebody does something either for money or out of naivety and inadvertently achieves something heroic does that mean they are a hero? What if they committed a crime in order to achieve this inadvertent heroism? What if they commit a serious crime to achieve it? What if they betray their own people in one of their greatest hours? But remember they achieved heroism, tough one isn’t it?

@Conor Connolly I really think you need to reread my post again I did not have a go at officers of the DF or compare them to bankers. What I did compare was the perceived absence of equality of treatment and justice for all classes of people in both eras. What matters in this case is the fact that officers were exempt from this legislation not whether they deserted or not. In the case of bankers because of the long delay in making cases against them (5 years on)do you really believe they will be called to answer legally for their deeds. Hopefully I am proved wrong.
Well Conor, maybe if you had read the post properly it would not have upset your sensibilities, and you would not have needed to have a go at me for knocking your heroes off the pedestal. I clearly stated that those that deserted should be punished as proscribed in law. The law must apply to all equally and it could easily be implied from your post that you believe certain people are above the law because they hold a perceived status in society. As we have seen in recent court proceedings in this country people of perceived status solicitors, barristers, and a judge called to account for breaking the law.
Officers of the DF are human, just like the rest of us and are subject to the same human failings as the rest of us, their honour or loyalty was never questioned by me, so less of the cheap shots trying to put words in my mouth.
And lastly there was a very serious case of an Air Corps aircraft with its Irish crew trying to defect to the Luftwaffe during the war and the pilot at least was an officer who later joined the RAF and remained in the RAF during the Cold War. As to the exact details I am not sure but if you are really interested contact the Air Corps Museum.

@pilib. I agree that their desertion technically left them open to sanction. however as regards the Irish defending against the Germans, a German invasion would have brought the British back into Ireland as they could nit have afforded to loose the ports to German ships. As for the Irish, I’m sure manybif then would have been making tea for their new masters. anybody but the British, the old story.

@Conor-it was tongue in cheek! Relax. Most enlisted men have gripes with officers getting it handy(mostly just perception) in any military organization….all part of the barrack humour.

Thanks for the info Stephen on the Air Corps incident.

Why is it being issued in the first place. They walked out on their duty and an oath they took, they came back faced no penalty from the state but being considered unreliable employee’s. People who stayed and struggled and worked for the country looked upon them as mercenaries.

They received no punishment above that, that was the extra allowance that was given to them.

The great irony is that many of the men that called for Irish men to join up were the same men that spent the previous decade saluting Hitler and praising Mussolini and fascism.

They were held accountable for their actions.

There is a lot or historical revisionism on at the moment that these men were strident anti-fascists. Were is the proof, why do people think that. Their greatest supporters in the 50′s were men who were clearly pro-fascist in the 30′s.

They gave no more a toss about his death as they did Hitler’s life.

You could be right Stephen & by the time Devs’ death came they wouldn’t give a damn. Fairly sure they had seen enough by then….

They were not innocent. They did in fact desert. Did you not read the article?

On his death deValera, as Ireland’s first elected leader, was seen in small countries as someone who stood up for the liberty of small countries, particularly at the League of Nations.

Who had seen enough by then? He was democratically elected Taoiseach several times.

They chose to desert the Defence Forces. They lived with the consequences.