Mike
That’s the reason that Enda Kenny is Taoiseach and you’re not.

The glazed look in poor Edna’s eyes reminds me of the dictator in Woody Allen’s ‘Bananas’, where the power went to this idiots head & he started making all these new laws, such as; ” everyone had to change their underwear 3 times a day, – and the underwear must be worn on the outside, – so we can check…”
Poor Edna, – a 3rd rat NT, betraying the Irish people with childish enthusiasm.

Rate, – I meant ‘rate’, – Freudian slip…

Michael have a read of Colm McCarthy’s piece in the Sunday Indo today. As he say’s there has been a big increase / boom in only one area in Ireland and that is in good news spin not based on fact or figures.

Incipid reply as always Michael..

Colin McCarthy. The lefts new poster boy celebrity economist. Whatever happened David McWilliams? You boys are so fickle?

Kerry
I just read it a few moments ago and unprompted by your advice. The interesting thing I find about economists is the rarity of any two agreeing on anything. When I studied the subject many years ago I was struck by the link with economic success and positivity. So , whether McCarthy is right or wrong there is good news out there and it won’t take much to bring back the rattle and the hum and particularly when our soft landing was so harsh.
I wonder what McCarthy thinks in respect of all those people who purchase lottery tickets every week?

I can’t see how McCarthy could be described as left-wing. He is perhaps one of the most market oriented of the better known economists along with Gurdgiev.
Neither have anything flattering to say about the competence of the current government. That doesn’t make them left-wing.

Colm McCarthy – Left wing – only a numpty would say such a thing!

Harvey- he’s Taoiseach. What have you done?

@ Vincent I’m not left wing it’s a pity you can not refute Colm McCarthy’s opinion / views but rather try and suggest that he is some kind of poster boy and have ignored what he has said. But oddly enough you are quite happy to believe the words of Kenny.

@ Michael J. Lotto tickets what that got to do with this? If your interested why don’t you email Colm McCarthy and ask him. Regarding economists you are correct many economists disagree the difference is Colm McCarthy is one and Kenny isn’t as he said himself he’s an optimist and to be honest little else.

Vincent. Look at my response to first comment please, I replied to that by accident, luv ya babe x

@kerry- Stalin would have been concerned by your left wing tendencies. I didn’t read McCarthy. That would involve embracing the cult of the celebrity economist. I will continue my search for a one armed economist and when I find him, I’ll listen to him. In the meantime, I’ll judge this Government by progress being made. All the metrics look good at the moment. When next I go to the polls I’ll be looking for the proof in the pudding. Are the Troika gone. Is the country better off now than when FG took over? I suggest you do the same. You won’t, though- because you’re still looking for the magic wand solution. Good luck with that.

@howsaboutya- I love you too. But sort of in the way you love someone when you’ve had a few beers, you broke up with the ex a month earlier, you have a new girls phone number, she’s a taxi ride away and you reckon she’s fairly gamey. It’s love. But it’s temporary. I don’t think Enda Kenny is a visionary. He’s no JFK. He’s just a decent man who is probably a better operator than people give him credit for. In that sense, he might be just what this country needs right now; a simple guy with the country’s best interests at heart, capable of holding together a coalition enough to make some hard calls and obvious choices that sets us on the right path. People call him corrupt and in patriotic on here which is a joke. You can disagree with a man without questioning his patriotism. So do you still love me? I ask because I’ll pay for the taxi, like….

I appreciate your response, and I respect the fact that you comment on this site with your opinion even though u get a lot of “red thumbs” (not that they make or break a good point) & a lot of them unwarranted. You do make some valid points.

But good enough to become the head of fine Gael is not necessarily good enough to lead this business. To me anyway.

I’ll under the bridge in 5, don’t disappoint me babe

I don’t think Enda is the answer to all our problems by a long chalk & I really take issue with some of the things the coalition have done, but until someone comes up with a better alternative………..

More importantly Kenny is T and what has he done????

@ Vincent. As as a life long FG voter (now ex) I’d not have considered myself left wing and have not yet decided who I might vote for next election. I’m hoping that some viable new parties will appear to give the voters a choice besides FF/FG/LAB/SF. BTW the main economic indicator is GNP and that is on the floor. So have a look at how that is fairing next time you go to the polls.

@kerry- and Fine Gael put the GNP there, did they? Please. As I say, you’re still looking for the magical wand. It doesn’t exist. Small steps, hard work & sacrifice. That’s all there is.

to Vincent Dolan, – I have never done anything to cost people their livelihood, or, indeed, their lives.
I haven’t betrayed or fleeced an entire nation, just to bail out anonymous bondholders & banks,
I am no Enda Kenny, Thank God…

I haven’t checked the news in a while. So I’m now fully up to speed on the Bullshitter-In-Chiefs thoughts on our country. I see also his 2 or 3 loyal leftenants are still on the Journo trying to defend what is becoming more and more obvious as indefensible.

And ain’t that just…….dandy!

What do you suggest Rob Zombie ?

I would suggest that we follow the paper trail to the private institutions that the Irish tax payers have saved and ensure that ALL of these entities are forced to pay into some sort of fund with the interest added that we incurred, + a hardship/suffering payment.

Could this work?

I’m not a financial person so excuse the simplicity but it can’t be that difficult…
Enda said this morning that he had no plan b… That seems very foolish..
Everything should be attempted..

Why does the ‘leader’ of this country have confidence in a health minister so mired in controvasy? O’Reilly is a politician who believes in sleeveen politics and no doubt would be baying for blood if n opposition which no doubt he will be after the next election.

Exactly, Kerry. The spin doctors have been selling hard recently.
Unsurprisingly, the economy continues to deteriorate under Kenny/Gilmore.

“Promissory note deal”

what’s to negotiate, it is a made up debt, BURN IT!

@Vincent.

Good evening. Enda Kenny is the T. And credit due to him for eventually getting to that position. After many, many years in opposition where he has built up a ferocious pension pot for all his efforts.

He got into power because, and only because FF made such a monumental balls of Ireland inc. that the general voting Irish person had that or a Sinn Fein party that is mired in frankly what seems to be questionable characters.

NO OTHER REASON

Fine Gael’s political compass, ethos and history is extremely close to that of Fianna Fail.

So , yes he is the T, but for the above reasons.

He couldn’t run a bath.

Now hit me with your best shot.

Yawn

Fantastic contribution as always Vincent, your mother must be very proud!

Yes, Diarmuid. Much as your mother must be proud of your capacity to regurgitate anything that was on the Last Word during the week.

I don’t even listen to the Last Word, you must be terribly insecure to waffle on and be too scared to attach your face and name to your comments!

@diarmuid- to be fair, you come across as a lightweight. So it doesn’t matter what it is you’re regurgitating.

A lightweight? What are we? Boxers is it? You’re so pathetic its actually hilarious!

Notice Diarmaid Vincent never ever reply’s to the comment just tries to deflect those commenting away from the issue. Don’t get drawn in.

Diarmaid
All you are saying is perfectly true, and this scares vincent ,his arrogance is a well taught ,well learnt tactic of the fg hacks.

Eileen
It’s beyond your bedtime.

Still engaging with me then Diarmaid. You are a hard man to figure out!!!!
Best of luck to you, I’m off to my bed.

As much as I agree with you and as much as I believe abortion would be legal a long time ago if it was men who got pregnant, I would hate to see this turning into a man v woman thing. It’s not, I’m male and believe passionately in the right to choice. The men you talk about are either conservative or religious men. I hate seeing men lecture women on this issue too, but I’d be careful about labeling it as a “male wish”, cause believe me, it’s not! That’s just my two cents anyway!

@cathy- to be clear. It’s not a male or female issue; much and all as pro-abortionists like yourself would like it to be. It’s a people issue. Some people can’t be trusted to do the right thing. Some men abandon their children. The law steps in to stop them. Some women would do likewise. And the law similarly steps in.

Vincent I know you’re just a pathetic troll, too cowardly to show your own face or name, but abortion is one topic people like you really should keep your mouths shut for! There are families, with women whose pregnancies have fatal fetal abnormalities, getting on planes because of the lack of legislation, please keep your crude ignorant remarks to yourself. Abortion debates could do without immature moronic trolls!

Diarmaid,
What in Vincent’s post did you take such exception to that you had to be so personally abusive?
You will notice that my name & photo are attached!!

@diarmuid- I hate to tell you this but Vincent Dolan is my real name. So I’m hiding nothing. I look at your picture and think to myself: how can I improve on that perfection and I realise I can’t. So I hide my ugly head. But if you’d like to engage in an argument based on substance I’ll point out to you that 22% of healthy babies in the UK are aborted. Thats a figure provided by the Uk Dept of Health via Gavan Reilly of the Journal. So while you would say legislating for foetal abnormalities is important, I would say that the pro-abortion movement is motivated by a broader desire for abortion on demand and I for one won’t vote for anything that could lead to one fifth of Irish babies being terminated. It’s pretty sad that you think that anyone who disagrees with you is a troll, by the way. Says a whole lot about you.

Vincent, not that I need to explain myself to you, someone who in the past just followed me around here and commented on everything I said, vincent is a waffler much like yourself who seems to like to comment on everything I say on here. I’ll stop short of ignoring him when he makes such stupid remarks on such a sensitive topic for 1000’s of families around Ireland, there, did I past your test?

I understand that you don’t like us Diarmaid. That’s your perogative, but you still haven’t answered my question.
What in his post did you disagree with?

@Vincent – Is there your witty sarcasm at its best again Vincent? Oh how you crack me up! Possibly the more significant reason I know you to be a troll is the fact no one follows you on Twitter, you’ve posted just 18 tweets and one can only assume you don’t have red hair and a perfectly shaped egg for a head, but I’m only guessing there!

Just to satisfy both you and Justins request I take exception to your stupid remark – “some people can’t be trusted to do the right thing” – that would imply there IS a defined right thing, otherwise presumably it’s just your twisted interpretation, which is null and void in a debate as large as this one! NO ONE is pro abortion, it’s just a stupid phrase and how can a woman abandon her “child” by having an abortion. I know it must be tough for you to deal in factual terminology, but what is in the womb until 12 weeks is an embryo and after that till birth, a foetus – no children in there Vincent!

Actually you were incoherent Diarmuid. Read your post again. That said, it’s in keeping with your other contributions.

What are you on about now? Care to address my actual point?

There is nothing stupid about saying that some people can’t be trusted to do the right thing.
I would have thought that it was such an obvious fact of life that it hardly needed commenting on. This is why we have laws & punishments for those who do not do the right thing & the same will apply to abortion as everything else.

To be honest Justin I have zero interest in discussing anything with you, cheers!

@diarmuid- is it cowardice or a recognition that you’re not fit for the argument that makes you walk away from debate with Justin. It strikes me that in this debate, as I so many others you are adept at regurgitating populist rants but when confronted with a coherent, contradictory argument you fall asunder and resort to name calling. Might I suggest you would better serve your causes by staying out of the debate entirely, as you do tend to undermine their legitimacy. Better still, perhaps you should engage in a debate beyond a superficial level so that you understand the issues well enough to defend them? Just a thought.

Vincent that figure keeps growing..
The figure Gavan have you was 20.8%, and that was the total number of terminations under all grounds from A – F under UK law. This includes as a result of rape, fatal foetal abnormalities and defects, risks to the mothers life / health etc..

Please don’t misrepresent and exaggerate figures to make your point, it’s fallacious..

Still – it’s no reason to stoop and drag yourself to the level of name calling and attacks – you gotta rise above that crap..
If we are going to have a constructive debate everyone needs to leave that sort of tactic at home :)

You speaking to me shanti? I didn’t call anyone names?

My apologies – it seems Vincent is even further off the mark with the figure of 22%.
Later in that same thread Gavan corrected himself and commented that the average figure is more likely 18.5%.

It’s here in the comments: http://www.thejournal.ie/opinion-poll-shows-majority-in-favour-for-legislation-on-x-698251-Dec2012/

My apologies for misquoting Gavan.

22% vs 21%. A gross exaggeration!!!

It was more general at everyone, it seems a lot of the comments preceding mine had wandered into strangely personal territory.. We saw how we can have a slightly more rational and grown up debate this week – we need to keep that up!

I appreciate my comments may have got more personal, however, Vincent is a troll that seems to regularly attack people for no reason, I have been on the end of his attacks many times on many issues now and the patience wears thin now and then, but I totally agree with you! However I can assure you in this instance Vincent has nothing to add to any debate, he argues with people for the sake of it and just to wind them up!

@diarmuid- seriously. I mean really. You do know how you come across, right? Master of the superficial? King of the sound bite? Your inability to engage beyond the paper thin is the defining characteristic of you comments on here. Your threat of “burying” me in debate evokes in me the image of the 6 stone weakling being “held back” by his friends from the 20st opponent shouting “let me at em, let me at em…”. It would be quite funny if it was on a 1930’s Pathe newsreel. Now, though you just come across as a clown out of your depth. Now if you have anything of substance to contribute, by all means do so. I won’t hold my breath. Maybe there’s someone else in the house who can help you out?

@shanti- just checked there. It’s 19% when miscarriages and foetal abnormalities are taken out. So what was your point again?

How many times have you addressed me now Vincent and you still can’t spell my name?

@dermot- don’t cry now, will you? Still no substantive debate, I see. Just more names; trolls etc. Nothing to add? No counter argument? No insightful contribution to make? Just rhetoric? Oh dear.

Shanti- he didn’t correct himself. He extracted miscarriages. But no matter. I’m happy enough to point to 19% as an outrageously high figure.

Ha ha! Keep going Vincent, I’m intrigued at how much an anonymus cowardly troll will lie to try discredit someone. People must take zero notice of you in real life that you have to engage in this type of carry on! The reason I will not enter debate with you is cause I feel sorry for ya and I normally don’t argue with people I pity. Off with ya now, like a good boy!

Diarmaid
For a man who chucks it about you are very thin skinned!!
All I did here was ask a couple of questions & you cut off conversation with me, now Vincent is cut out in the same way. Keep this up and you will be left talking to yourself!!!!

@daremot- and yet it comes across like you haven’t got a clue. Got that whole gormless thing going on. Strange that, isn’t it? Still. I think it’s important that people know their limitations and its to your credit that rather than embarrass yourself further you’re extracting yourself from the fray. With a bit of luck you’ll get to read a sidebar on the back page of the metro paper on the Luas tomorrow and you’ll have something to talk about tomorrow night also. Won’t that be quite the treat for everyone else on the Journal? You can never have enough banality. Night now. Sleep well. It must be great having nothing swirling around in your head while you’re trying to drop off.

Justin I don’t engage with people who have been abusive to me in any way in the past, you are one of them. I don’t and won’t debate with you, get over it! I have more respect for myself than to have a short memory when it comes to engaging with people who have personally attacked me in the past – I remember you well Justin. Don’t fret either, that club is reserved especially for you and Vincent on this thread!

Vincent, when you deliberately do stuff like deliberately misspell peoples names it does display in abundance your maturity or lack thereof. Just a heads up mate!

The use of the term pro- abortionist is extremely offensive.

@eileen- if your intent to vote FOR abortion or advocate changes in legislation to allow FOR abortion, you are by definition, PRO Abortion. It’s not conjecture or spin, it’s a literal description of your position

Thanks Derrmot. I’ll file that away with all your other gems of wisdom.

You just checked, and yet you still got it wrong..
18.5%, after miscarriages which were registered are accounted for.. No need to go rounding it up Vincent, people can go see for themselves..

Vincent
Your comment is as I have already said to justin …. Offensive.
But putting aside your bad manners and those of justin , Enda’s comments on that program today were not just about abortion , he did talk about the promissory note ,but that was only to tell us all that we are too thick and ignorant to understand any of it . What was it he said ? It was complicated ? No. It’s not . They are stealing from us and our taxes to pay the untaxed gamblers.Now we have argued these points before and to say the least ,you bore me. So I will say bye bye until you and justin can come up with more new IDs

@justin- I really wouldn’t worry too much about Daremut. You have a guy here whining about people being mean to him (ah, bless) yet a quick review of this thread shows all the abuse emanating from him. Such is the intellectual colossus you’re dealing with here. I wouldn’t lose any sleep.

Diarmaid
I suspect that vinnie here is speaking to himself when he addresses justin !!!

Diarmaid,
I have never abused anyone one this site, you included. It’s a lie & either you produce the evidence for it or retract.
As for personally attacking you, personal attacks are your stock in trade & it is laughable that you would be offended. If you don’t like personal attacks, don’t engage in them.
I have never encountered such precious behaviour in my life.

@Shanti- 18.5% is 19%. Which is in line with my 1 in 5 average from earlier. So again- your point is??!?!?

@eileen- speaking of stealing taxes, have you paid your household charge yet? And if I bore you, you shouldn’t feel obliged to address me on a thread. You should never feel obliged to do that.

@eileen- as is so often the case with you on here, you’re wrong. But bless you, you continue ranting away nonetheless. It would be funny if it didn’t quite so often diverge onto the disturbing.

Ha ha, you might want to look up the meaning of the word “irony” there Justin!!!

Eileen,
I never used the term pro abortionist. Where did you get that from?
As for bad manners I suppose it is always in the eye of the beholder but I thought I was very restrained & only asked Diarmaid a couple of questions until I was cut off.
Could the problem possibly be that I don’t sing off the same hymn sheet as most others on here?
If so it doesn’t say much for freedom of speech!!

Vincent quick question. I noticed you said ” I would say that the pro-abortion movement is motivated by a broader desire for abortion on demand and I for one won’t vote for anything that could lead to one fifth of Irish babies being terminated.” earlier on in this thread. The 4000 Irish women who travel to the UK every year for an abortion what’s your thoughts on them? Would you vote to restrict their right to travel or is it ok as long as the abortion is not carried out in Ireland?

My point is that on the other thread you started out with 21%, Gavan said 20.8% then revised down to 18.5% and you were here this evening with a figure of 22% which you reckoned was corroborated by Gavan from the journal staff.
I was merely correcting your numbers, y’know, in the interests of honesty and facts..

@kerry- I honestly don’t know on that one.

@Shanti- I think you overstated the differential. I said 1 in 5 initially ( roughly rounded- understating the 22%) but ultimately agreed to 19%, which is still roughly rounded 1 in 5. So I don’t think I misrepresented the figures in any meaningful way. And 1 in 5 is an enormous figure.

@ Vincent. Fair enough an honest answer. But consider my question if we ever are asked to vote on what you call “abortion on demand” and remember many of those who do travel are frightened and afraid and far from family members through no fault of their own.

@kerry- I’m sure it’s terrible. But that consideration can’t outweighs the right to life of the baby. Only the mothers life supercedes that. It’s a reason to keep abortion banned here and for helping pregnant girls out a whole lot more.

Do we care why it happens?

No doubt you’ll be the first one on here admitting you we’re wrong when they bring the deal home, yes.

I won’t hold my breath, do you know something the rest of us don’t? You seem very confident, ‘bring the deal home’, as if we should be excited and grateful! LMAO

The whole mess is the population’s doing. Voting Fianna Fail in three times in a row who destroyed the country, greed, taking all the money FF was throwing at them, the national love-in with Bertie.

Ill have to agree with that statement Joe. We are at partial fault for being blind to what was going on.
In 2007 I remember asking a lecturer in Kevin Street when I was doing my apprenticeship what were all the sparks going to do for work (Kevin Street alone was turning out about 150 or more qualified sparks every three months) if it ever went tits up? He just said he didn’t want to think about it.

And the corruption now continued to this day by Enda’s , O’Reilly & Gilmore’s present crop of Cowboys & Gangsters.

Agreed. It’s not an easy thing, and I very much doubt that women who make that choice make it lightly. It is something that they will carry with them for their entire lives – whether that be good or bad. It is their conscience that will inform their decision. To write women off and insinuate that they make these decisions frivolously or worse yet – would lie just to access it, is really quite disrespectful.

It’s a huge decision. Only someone with no compassion or empathy could ever suggest it wasn’t. That’s why we need to be more willing to support women – whatever decision they come to, so that they do not feel pressured and can make the decision that they will feel most comfortable with, whether that be motherhood, adoption or abortion.

In full agreement with all of that, and very well put

You’re forgetting something that I’m afraid makes your criticism of the X Case null and void.

We, the Irish people, have been asked twice if we wanted to remove the suicide ground from the constitution, and both times it was rejected.

If the supposedly pro life majority couldn’t get themselves together to vote the right way on at least the second occasion then it’s their problem. The majority won, both times. Suicide as a grounds for abortion remains in the constitution. Perhaps Ireland isn’t as pro life as you would like to believe.
Maybe we should get another vote on the 8th amendment? Seeing as how the youngest person who could have voted in that one would be almost 50 now – no woman of child bearing age has had their voice heard on that one..

Doctors testified in the Seanad this week that they are reluctant to act due to the lack of legislation, so legislation IS required, at the very least to reflect the constitution and not contradict it.

And I love you too.

Just to note regarding the terminology used in this debate. A woman does not say she “has” a baby when she is pregnant, but she says she “is going” to have a baby, which is a future tense compared to the present tense “has.” Also, no woman ever says she is a mother until she has had a child. Not that I think this terminology makes any difference anyway. But I find all efforts of anti-choice people extraordinary good when it comes to spreading misinformation. Babies who are able to survive are not “aborted” as they are delivered through early induced labor and then left in care until they join the ranks of children from which parents refused. A fetus before 12 weeks is nothing more than a clamp of cells and all cells without exception are alive, as well as grass cells. Again, I do not expect this to change any person’s mind who had undergone a brain-abortion by the propaganda of certain people nor those who think that the fetus survival level will clear their way to heaven.

@ Ian Aston
I am a passionate Irishman, my children are the 10 th generation in the one place, and I consider it more Irish to maintain our values and desires for Ireland, rather than go chasing after the failing values of other so called modern societies. My opinion is of little importance, but I hate seeing this country going the way of the culture of death.

I can tell you’re passionate Paddy and I admire that. Fair play. I don’t know how many generations of my family go back in Ireland. Probably not many. I know that my great great great something grandfather was beaten to death by Cromwell at the siege of Drogheda with his own wooden leg but that’s another story.

One of the biggest issues the young people of Ireland have is collective shame of their generation that their intelligent and passionate forebears wasted so much time on FF and the church instead of putting their energies into building a sustainable, secure and ultimately successful country. The country doesn’t belong to us, we belong to it and we should ensure that what we do is to leave a formidable legacy that our children will inherit when it is their turn.

This abortion debacle is an embarrassment. Choosing the life of a healthy woman over an unborn foetus should never have to happen – we shouldn’t even have to think about it! There is no choice to make! Those reasons could be physical or psychological and just because they are psychological doesn’t mean they are not real.

@ Ian Aston
That great great etc grandmother, must have had some worthwhile passion herself to suffer such a fate.
I don’t think your generation has a monopoly on shame, each generation has its fair share. But you are generalising somewhat, I hate to be the bearer of bad news to you but we will never have a perfect political system. Many have been tried and failed, but of course we should look at the current and continue to try and improve it.
My political opinion at the moment is that the difficulty is not in the cutbacks, but I’m the fact that our politicians have not taken it upon themselves to cut their own gravy train. What would be saved is nominal, but it would give them the moral right to do what is necessary.
You may consider our current situation, no abortion, a debacle; but it is something many people in the “developed” countries envy. We all choose what we are proud of, and what we are ashamed of.
I agree with you, choosing the life of a healthy woman over a foetus should not happen, but, that is our current situation in practice. I think the figure was 26 babies had to be induced last year to save the mother. We don’t consider that to be abortion. But we get into all kinds of quagmires as soon as you move into the psychological arena. History shows that this spectrum has been rightly abused by our modern neighbours.

He was commanding the Royalist troops defending Drogheda when Cromwell arrived… They thought he had gold stashed in his wooden leg. You’ll find him on wikipedia – Arthur Aston.

I understand where you’re coming from but we’re not going to agree about this abortion issue. In actual fact, in under-developed countries where abortion is illegal the abortion rate is HIGHER than countries where it is legal. Higher, and a lot less safe. The reasons for this are more complex than the fact the abortions are available – crime, socio-economic climate, education etc etc. Have a read of this:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/18/abortion-rates-higher-countries-illegal-study_n_1215045.html

Sorry my spell checker works auto.

yeah Paddy because when we finally get the legislation that we as a nation voted for 20 years ago we are all going to go out and have abortions enmass. congrats on your brand new fb profile btw.

Paddy
The Dublin Airport Authority together with all Dublin Airport workers and their Trade Unions facilitate abortion every time they assist a woman make her way to a Departure gate en route to a UK city for an abortion.
That’s the logic of your position and your idea of a Vigil being held next week.

Paddy why are you so obsessed with young women’s reproductive systems?

Paddy, perhaps ye might not use children in your protest this time maybe? You know cause ye care so much for them and all that. Yesterday Google informed me that they had received complaints about this blogpost, just days after a member of Youth Defence informed me they were going to get it taken down. It’s back up now again, amazing how ye don’t seem to want public to see how ye abuse childrens innocence and how against free speech and democracy ye really are!

http://diarmaidtwomey.blogspot.ie/2012/12/a-new-low-for-pro-life-campaign.html

Thanks to Paul Reynolds again for the picture – please note the fear in the childs eyes!

Off ya trot then Paddy… Here is a list of the countries where there is no right to choose:

South America:
Brazil, Colombia, Chile, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Guatamala, Haiti, Honduras, Mexico, Nigaragua, Panama, Paraguay, Venezuela,

Sub-Saharan Africa:
Angola, Benin, Central African Rep.Chad, Congo, Côte d’Ivoire, Dem. Rep. of Congo, Gabon, Guinea- Bissau, Kenya, Lesotho, Madagascar, Mali, Mauretania, Mauritius, Niger, Nigeria, Senegal, Somalia, Tanzania, Togo, Uganda.

Middle East and North Africa:
Afghanistan, Egypt, Iran, Lebanon, Libya, Oman, Sudan, Syria, United Arab Emirates, Yemen.

Asia and Pacific:
Bangladesh, Indonesia, Laos, Myanmar, Papua New Guinea, Philippines, Sri Lanka.

Europe:
Ireland, Malta, Vatican City

Pick one and go live there… They are all progressive, visionary places.

@ Caoimhe Clery
I always ask for any example of a country where having legislated for the exceptional, abortion has not become normalised. None exist. I had to change FB as I’m unable to comment using my old profile.
@ Michael J Collins
I regret the abortions in England, but I as a citizen can only affect Irish law, and our vision of a just society.
@ Conor
I’m not sure if your comment is sexist or ageist, perhaps both, but my obsession is with protecting life, what is yours?
@ Diarmaid Twomey
I have no idea where your comment is coming from. If parents bring family with them, great, it good to teach all ages how precious life is. I am not a member of youth defence.

Diarmuid, I have to disagree with you on that picture. You can’t say for sure that the child is frightened, photographs can catch people making all sorts of faces. To then accuse the pro life of abusing children is unfair and unwarranted. You mostly make excellent contributions on here and especially on the abortion issue but try and keep it fair. Both sides will be very passionate on this issue, trading insults won’t improve the debate.

I would try read the post first lads, it’s not all about a picture, in fact very little is, it’s more got to do with Youth Defence posters and kids holding placards at protests about subjects they know nothing about. My post is very fair I believe in that I feel everyone is entitled to their opinion and their right to hold peaceful protest but I stop short of being ok with children being used to peddle propaganda in any debate, especially one as contentious and adult orientated as this!

Paddy go get yourself a uterus, then get yourself raped in the most horrific manner, then 2 months later, after learning your rapist got off on a technicality discover you are pregnant – then you can pontificate on abortion.
Us men lucky as we are to never know the full scale of what I just described have no right to judge those who opt for abortion. What gives you the right to decide for others? Don’t start your answer with “and what gives you the right to take the life of an innocent unborn child”

Paddy, if your “obsession is with protecting life”, would you like to use the facility afforded to you here to publicly condemn the Pope for blessing the lawmaker responsible for Uganda’s ‘kill the gays’ law?

@ Ian Aston
Ian my question was, where has restrictions worked. I don’t like seeing the Irish public being conned into believing we can have a little abortion.
I have every intention of staying in Ireland with or without abortion. But I’m sure you would have a much wealthier list of abortion enabling societies to go to if you were to follow your own logic.

This nonsense about abortion only goes to prove that this country is a backward, third world kip. Spinsters and child abusing priests trying to tell woman how to lead their lives. We are a complete joke.

Or better yet paddy, tell me why someone who is diagnosed with a pregnancy not compatible with life shouldn’t be offered an abortion? Labour is a very risky process, pregnancy is also a risky physiological state. If the child has no possibility of surviving to term why should the mother carry it to term, go through the dangers and trauma of childbirth and then bury the stillborn. How is that just and fair? Educate me on that one please paddy

@ John
I sure you can come up with many excuses for introducing abortion, all I ask is that you remember you are destroying a life. In the case of rape, a desperate situation, I would ask you to remember that the baby conceived is not the rapist. This is something that several individuals who were themselves born as the result of a rape have said. If the law is inadequate for dealing with rapists, then I would suggest we would be better off dealing with this and not wasting our energies perusing innocent babies.
I don’t wish to judge those who choose abortion, my concern is to promote a just society where all, including the baby, are respected for the life they are.

Paddy you are using the word “baby”, a word next to “child” that is regularly used by anti choice people. It’s an embryo up until 12 weeks and a foetus after that – IT IS NOT a baby or a child that is in the womb, please stick to factual medical terminology if you want to even be considered worth engaging with!

@ werejammin
No. I have great respect for the pope who shakes hands with leaders from all over the world, even leaders who through the laws they enact lead to the killing of millions of children. Also leaders who snub them by closing the embassy.
If the pope blesses, so be it. If the man is unworthy of his blessing then it will return back to the pope. But the Pope is in a diplomatic position where he influences many people, and we know the church has many outreaches in Uganda. I’m sure he is very prudent when it comes to dealing with people, and unlike the blog world where insulting is normal exchange, he moves in more elevated circles. Both of us are aware that the pope never promoted the killing of gays.

Anytime you see terminating a ‘baby’, replace it in your head with “teenager”, “pensioner”, “young adult”, or any other term that an embryo or foetus is not, and you can see how ridiculous that labelling is.

No women is history has had an abortion with a baby. Ever.

@ John
And now the other hard case situation. The baby “incomparable with life”. Just to be clear, we are talking about a child who is still alive, but likely to die at birth or within the first year.
Our current practice is to use the perinatal facilities which cares for the mother and child to the point of natural death.
My view is that life is life, and there is no lesser, or expendable, version of life. Without an absolute truth like this, then we open up to arguing, lets kill the old, the sick, the disabled, those who do not agree with us, those of another creed of nationality. If life looses its value, then no matter how modern we are, we are just savages.

@ Paddy I wasn’t being ageist or sexist, I’m asking you why do you have an interest in something that doesn’t effect you, middle aged men do not have a uterus. Let the people who do have one, decide on their own health issues.

Nah Paddy, I was responding to your original point “Is this our vision for Ireland, its certainly not mine.”

Anyway, does it make you feel proud that Ireland is on the list above?

They closed the embassy because there’s no point having 2 embassies within a km of each other in Rome. Plus we don’t really have any diplomatic relations with a bunch of old men pontificating about bigoted beliefs, while living in gold plated palaces.

@ Diarmaid Twomey
Technically you are right on the titles, but so many use titles to avoid the reality of what they are proposing. I never asked a pregnant mother, how are you and the foetus getting on!

@ Paddy, so you’re obsessed with protecting life and blessing people who write laws to execute gays. Is a gay life worth less than a day old foetus to you?

Paddy is a gay life worth less than a foetus?

@ Alien8
Have to disagree with you here. There are many late term abortions in the UK where the baby is aborted alive. There is a particular scandal around this situation at present, as the practice is to abandon the baby and let it die. I understand this is very gruesome, but true.

So paddy is a gay life worth less than a Foetus as the pope has implicitly advocated…..

@ Conor
Yes and we should only let bankers determine what fraud is, and only let car drivers make the rules of the road, only restaurant owners set hygiene standard. I always believed it took two to tango, and society as a whole has interests that go beyond the personal interest of one group or another. The “no uterus no opinion” argument is ridiculous.

Nor did I, but that is because you and I both and of course all the pregnant women title it baby in the hope that someday that’s what it will be. One day I hope I will be an old man, would you be accurate in labeling me an old man now to make a point? Using the word child and baby is grossly misrepresentative just like the posters pro life put up are nonsense because no abortion targets a baby!!!

Did you actually just agree that a gay life is worth less than a foetus? What if that foetus is gay, is it ok to abort it then?

@ Conor
The diplomatic core of the Vatican is one of the most important in the world. They have maintained relationships with many countries who are otherwise persona non grata. This extensive list of relationships even with countries such as Iran, has greatly facilitated peace negotiations between these and western powers.
I would also point out that the papal nuncio is the head of diplomats here in Ireland. It is he who hosts events such as the coming or going of other diplomats to Ireland.
You shouldn’t let your own biases create blinkers. Even though the pope lives in grand surroundings, they are great exponents of charity. I enjoyed discovering recently that ten Jewish babies were born in the popes chambers, during the holocaust. Perhaps they knows more about babies than you might imagine.

@ werejammin
@ Conor
What I’m saying, is the Pope sends his blessing out to everyone, but that blessing only bears fruit when it is received worthily.
I love gays, and believe they are as valued as you, or I, or a foetus. I will of course disagree with many issues promoted by sectors of the gay community. But abortion is the topic of the week.

Paddy it’s pretty funny that you accuse Conor of having blinkers as you talk so glowingly about a corrupt hierarchy of a sham of an organisation. The pope and the hierarchy do know alot about babies and children alright, the know a hell of alot of ways to abuse them and subsequently cover up that abuse and interfere in a sovereign lands affairs to ensure they receive no repercussions for same! Spare me the “pope pitch”, there is only one person blinkered here and it’s you my friend!

@ Ian Ashton
Ian I’m thrilled to be on a list of countries that do not support abortion, long may it last. Better than being on a list of abortion promoting countries. Have we travelled so far in the direction of modern, that we have to apologise for being pro-life. What would your grandmothers say?

Paddy, Popes considered a foetus to not become a person until 24 weeks right up to the 1860s. Are you saying that papal infallibility only became true from the 1870? Or is it just another contradiction and hypocracy of your beloved catholic church?

1) The Vatican is not one of the most important centres of diplomacy in the world. There is an embassy in Rome, I’m sure that the Popemobile will be able to drive the small distance to it.

2) If the Pope is infallible, and gives his blessing to the leader of the “Kill the Gays” movement in Uganda. Then according to Catholic belief, he doesn’t need to “bear fruit” as what the pope says and does is seen as being infallible.

3) There is no gay community, they’re our friends, neighbours and family. If you disagree with what they say or do, then don’t be gay. What right do you have to dictate about other peoples lifes, gay rights won’t effect your life at all.

@ian- 1). who cares what other countries do? 2). Can I ask: are you Irish?

@ Diarmaid Twomey
I don’t want to diverge too much, but the church is many things. Accusing the church yet again about the woeful abuse is a poor excuse for finishing a debate, when you have poor points to make. The church is also: the Saint Vincent DePaul society, hospitals, Mother Teresa, cura, ruhama, and many more outreaches to society guided by that ” corrupt hierarchy of a sham of an organisation”, as you put it.

Sorry Paddy, but you’re the one rambling on about the pope and the vatican???

@Paddy – I think I am sufficiently developed as a human being to be able to form my own opinions without having to use my grandparents. My mam used to do that when I was a kid – “What would your nana say if she saw you doing that?” and it terrified me. It doesn’t now chief so can it. I’m glad you said you are proud to be on that list. It shows you don’t actually care about Ireland and only about your own opinion.

Oh. and Paddy – It’s Aston, Not Ashton. It’s written right there beside my posts.

@Vincent – 1. Anyone with half a brain should be interested in learning how more developed and progressive nations deal with sensitive subjects. Good question. 2. Yes I am. Another great question. Thanks for your input.

I was not the first to bring up the pope and the Vatican.

@ian- it’s distressing to hear you refer to other countries as being more developed than Ireland. Says quite a lot about you and your pontificating. And explains why I wondered about your nationality. The US allows abortion, by the way. It also allows the death penalty for Juveniles. The UK aborts 22% of healthy babies. These are more progressive nations, are they? The very fact that you refer to other countries as more progressive betrays your own sense of arrogance as by “progressive”, you patently mean nations which agree with your world view. Sad.

@Vincent. No, both of those nations are conservative. How am I being arrogant? I am not pontificating, I am suggesting that maybe we can learn from nations that have more experience dealing with these issues in a mature and sensitive manner. That is actually the opposite of arrogance.

I can’t believe YOUR arrogance and ignorance in thinking that we are the most developed country in the world. Is this really what you think? That we are perfect? If so then it’s a waste of time discussing anything with you. You’re a zealot and I’ve got babies to murder, devils to worship and sex before marriage to be having.

Don’t get sucked in Ian, Vincent is like an annoying house fly, he flies around articles ducking and diving, changing direction and just generally being annoying and loud. Now if only we had a swatter!!!

Paddy.
Abortion being illegal doesn’t stop it happening. If we count the number of women travelling abroad and the limited number of abortions which are carried out here we have a fairly standard rate of abortion. We just export it.

When abortion is illegal it makes it more risky. Women seek out alternate methods if the option of travel is not open to them for financial or other reasons. This can be risky, if not fatal.

So, in your rush to protect us from the slippery slope you perceive, you would rather continue with the status quo, which forces women who’s babies have fatal foetal abnormalities to carry to term with no respect or consideration given to the mothers needs. Denying her the right to bury her child if she travels for a termination.

You would rather leave women in potentially risky situations because doctors are unsure whether legally they can act to save her or not.

You would rather remove all control from a woman who was violated in rape by removing the choice of whether she carries her rapists baby inside her.

And you would rather women committed suicide – killing themselves, their baby and any future babies they may have had, than respect their wishes..

Funny how you talk about respecting the foetus but you have none for the women who don’t feel that they can continue with a pregnancy for even valid reasons..