You have a do Torsten in economics yourself, then, to be able to say they are muppets? Or do you just like jumping into fights without understanding the reasons behind the fight?

Do you have a degree in…

so you think the ESRI are credible? Most family dogs have a better understanding of economics than that shower of parasites.

I have a degree in computing. I have followed economics closely for years and the ESRI have no idea.

fair point

Z?… Is an ersi team member! IR is spot on.

A degree in bull is a enough if only wisdom was valued

@ Irish Revolution. No, everything you’re ranting about here is wrong. The ESRI called the property bubble before it got out of hand 12 years ago. It even recommended reducing the tax cuts and incentives which were fuelling the property market, as wll as rejecting populist FF policies, but they were shot down by Bertie & co.

Here is video evidence from RTE news in 2000: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THWbrFy5NWM

The amount of populist sh*te by people who dont take a second to research or even think things through on this site is ridiculous. Let’s hope you’re not part of our next glorious vanguard of ‘revolutionaries’.

@ TuneWire – I don’t think there’s much point replying to Irish Revolution – I have a sneaky suspicion that he/she is the new name for Rob / Tim / Too True Left or one of the others, but now they’ve worked out that engaging in debate doesn’t work in their favour, so now it’s a strategy of leaving unsubstantiated comments and not giving others the chance to refute them.it’s actually a better strategy, pure emotional response that doesn’t allow analysis. Populist to the core and quite insulting to the readership as it underestimates the intelligence of it’s intended audience.

well said my man…too many spoofers on this site that pretend that they know a thing or two because they read a headline here or there..mostly tabloids….

it would, a useless right wing think tank

Ah yes, lets silence someone because we don’t agree with them. That’s the way forward in a democracy!

But not a bullet wasted.

But they have cartridges! Lots of them!

Lol

True, the ESRI’s track record isn’t as dire as people are claiming here, and I for one am glad that they’re there; at the least, the ESRI’S is modelled on a University structure rather than a political party structure, so, at least in theory, political agendas should take second place to objective and verifiable results. There’s also a lot of strange claims here that the ESRI is a right-wing apparatus, this also doesn’t hold up, over the past 30 years there’s been quite a few left-wingers on the staff..

Heard it off some lad, yeno yer man

The lady won’t get an ounce of respect for such a childish criticism. She must articulate an alternative economic view which unfortunately is somewhat beyond her abilities.

I think you have it there…. Am I going to take advice from someone who is educatted in English Lit and Human Resoures about Economics… SF continue with any populist slogan…

Yea, the ERSI screwed up but they are right in one thing. We can’t keep spending €13bn more than we got year on year… Get that to close to €3bn and we have a negociating postion with Europe…

An interesting reference above is that the ESRI report states that the economy is at the ‘bottom’. In my language that would imply that there is no further to fall. So if that is what the ESRI thinks then it doesn’t make sense to keep cutting. It makes sense to to stimulate the economy. Anyone with any knowledge of economics would know that much.

So the fact that the same organisation said that the bank debt was manageable is completely irrelevant then. I’m no sinn supporter but it seems most people are ready to dismiss out of hand anything they say without being able to provide a constructive counter argument.

I agree that it would be better to “stimulate the economy” rather than pile on the austerity but the sad fact is that we don’t have any money to spend, remember we had to borrow with conditional loans from the troika as we could not get market loans at sustainable interest rates.

I take it the SF’s position is “increase taxes” but taxing the middle classes would also take money out of the economy. Populist slogans like “tax the rich” would not bring in much revenue, and I do sincerely hope they are not thinking of increasing the corporate tax rate and scaring away all the big multinationals.

My gut feeling is that Ms. McDonald may have been inspired by the need to deflect attention from the revelations about Mr. Adams’ alleged IRA past.

an even bigger waste is paying billions of our cash to bondholders.

We could pay the bondholders in cannabis, we seem to have a lot of that at the moment.

I agree with ye mike that has been a big problem in this country just because u support a party should not mean anything they say should be presented with open arms I’m a supporter and a member and I know il never b like that but honestly mike all party member/supporters are the same

the friends of FF/FG/Labour are very rich.

I’m quite wealthy and they are no friends of mine.

thats if they run out of banks to steal from……

nonsense, the ESRI have always spoken out of both sides of their mouthes.

I think the ersi is a worthwhile institute that we need to help get the country back in its feet. They need to change tack and realise austerity is not working.

Paul krugman advocates the continued stimulus of economies to foster greater growth of the economy hence leading to more jobs and balance in society.
This is what Mary Lou mcDonald is
saying. We have no money to invest in the economy it’s being suck out to pay bondholders. Why can’t people see this instead of squabbling among each other and unite under to demand a shift in European economic policy. This starts with getting a government strong enough to do this.

Hey mike I’m a shinner and I don’t think that ………. Guess your wrong on that :)

maybe she has a point . the country is stagnant business are closing people can’t loans for houses that are really cheap all this goverment seem to want is what Germany tells them to do. all the promises Kenny made before the election he as renaged on . or am I wrong in my thoughts.

And when an economist disagrees with their view point, party strategy is to mis-,partially, or out of context quote them into making it look like they are saying exactly the opposite of they actually said. Good going SF. This strop of course has noting to do with the fact that it makes SF economic policy look like it was written by JRR Tolkien at all.

they are more realistic than FF/FG/labour. Cheapest bailout in the world, turning the corner, labours way or Frankfurt’s way, blah blah blah , waffle waffle.

They do ……..,and wait for it …. IT’S COSTED BY THE DEPT OF FINANCE ….. Ehmmmmmm should a done your homework

Well I’m not in any party but the only manifesto that had a costed economic plan supported by international economists, rather than by paid off Irish ones was Sinn Fein. I wouldn’t share their views on many things, they would class me as a West Brit, but economically they are far more sound than the muppets who ruined the country or the current ones who are making things worse.

at least SF stood up for Ireland, unlike FF/FG/Labour when they handed the country to the IMF.

Well didnt the irish people listen to FF criminals for long enough, look were that got us.

SF/IRA ‘stood up’ for Ireland?!

They spent decades trying to destroy this State and undermine democracy, and continue to this day by using anonymous cowards who post online

The pocket history of Ireland by Sir Stephen Kearon OBE

Yep Stephen, they “spent decades trying to destroy this State” while FF managed it in just a couple of years.

Mary Lou a terrorist? Look up the facts and don’t be making up fairytales

@ Stephen Kearon. Look what your big business colleagues fianna fail did to the country. Are you one of the cats that got plenty of cream?

Exactly Victoria SF and Economics don’t go in the same sentence!

Yes the mind boggles Victoria! Adams was totally out of his depth on Primetime. Wouldn’t put sf in charge of the petty cash box.

Fianna Fail and economics?, depression, bailouts, slash services, golden circles, galway races, property crash, public sector pay up to 400,000 euro a year, Usc charge ect ect.

Oh Mary Lou would you ever de-grimace for 2 seconds and actually be constructive and give a potential alternative. Your buddy G screwed up the other night on primetime on simple questions on budget shortfall and how this could be rectified. If you guys wanna be take things to the next level you need to really give plans and visions not whinge and moan constantly. That is all

Printer cartridges …. My god do u actually realise they were for informing locals on issues the government failed to inform them of .. Anyway I will assume your just having a laugh and will now retire to my leaba ….

And that makes it ok? some seriously flawed logic there but would expect nothing less…

well done Brendan, showing support for your peers. you have been well trained just like Reilly and co, all ye politicians do is talk the talk.

Hey Amy I looked u up on f/book your nothing special yourself lol

Hey richard put down the phone and get us a pint would you. Thanks.

I need a drink. Are you still pulling pints Richard? Are you having a lock-in tonight again?

im afraid to say but you ate not too far wrong that point Mary Lou could well hold the balance of power in the near future the way sinn fein are creeping up on the rest of the party’s.labour have been sucked in by fine geal the same way the green party were by finna fall they won’t be around the next election either and sinn fein will pick up the left wing vote

Woman makes comments, man criticises woman not based on the content of her argument, but by her appearance. Bravo.

Thanks!

Soooo – are the ESRI correct or what?

@david all il say is you remind me of all the f/f heads in the good times your s loyal party supporter ….. Nothing more )

You mean the guy who said the fiscal suicide compact was economically a bad idea, but “on balance” we should vote yes?

at least she never ripped off the Irish taxpayers by charging 3500 for web hosting worth 25 quid.

more on that hosting http://storify.com/contact_ie/stephen-kearon-and-that-3250-bill-for-hosting-a-we

I bet u liked your own comment ,, as u are a f/f man after all lol
Listen get a life that Martin lad fuked up the health service and you supported him your like the David Higgins of the old days would ye ever retire and stop embarrassing some of the younger members of your party who wish to change from your old rhetoric

Ps as long as your chairing cumman meetings s/f in Wicklow have nothing to worry about …….. F/f revival my eye lol be like all them lads on the plain in America reinacting Gettysburg bunch a auld lads with nothing to offer only old story’s of the past

I heard FF kicked him out and told him he is not allowed use their name on any of his promotional material.

Seriously Stephen, FF or any of their members or foot soldiers have no right to make any comment on economics, you do realise that it was your party…which included your self promoted leader of the opposition Micheal Martin…are solely responsible for the monstrous depression this country is in?

All very well for you lot of clowns to sit in smug judgement of other parties policies (FG/Labour included) when FF’s constant stupidity, recklessness and quite frankly disastrous tenure in charge of the purse strings lead us to where we are now.

You do realise all this don’t you…. or are you inflicted with the selective amnesia the rest of your party seems to have contracted?

Those fiscal policies are enacted by the British government. Both power sharing governments have nothing to do with the budget set out to them. I suggest you, being a man from a great republican party in fianna fail, write to the British government to give these fiscal powers to the power sharing executive. Then you could cause but not until then.

Steven the annual best fianna fail employee of the year must be coming up. I see your getting in your tuppence. Michael will be so proud of his teachers pet.

@ Darren – that’s fair enough. I’m 62, and I was an active Socialist in the 70s and 80s in the UK ( I’m Irish and was born in Ireland, but I emigrated after school and later ended up as a University student there, My ( then ) wife and I returned to Ireland as we wanted our kids to be brought up here ). I stopped being politically active when the Eastern Bloc imploded, as it left myself and many other hard-line / intellectual socialists feeling conned and hypocrites. Basically our rhetoric and our beliefs were shown to have been false, and we’d been helping to perpetuate oppression. People forget now that, until the very end, many socialist states, especially the DDR, were extremely successful at pumping out false propaganda that they were efficient, caring and humanist-driven. Hindsight blurs the past. So, long-winded answer, but politically I’d consider myself left-wing, but I’m not a member of any party and I’m disgusted at much of this new wave of Irish lefties, as their politics are closer to anarchism or crypto-fascism than socialism. It’s anti-tax, anti-democracy and disrespectful of the people it claims to serve. I’m also aware, sad to say, that socialism is at it’s best as a balance and check against regulated capitalism, as socialist-dominated societies are too vulnerable to corruption and the greed/laziness factor. Hope that answers your question.

@ Darren – that’s fair enough. I’m 62, and I was an active Socialist in the 70s and 80s in the UK ( I’m Irish and was born in Ireland, but I emigrated after school and later ended up as a University student there, My ( then ) wife and I returned to Ireland as we wanted our kids to be brought up here ). I stopped being politically active when the Eastern Bloc imploded, as it left myself and many other hard-line / intellectual socialists feeling conned and hypocrites. Basically our rhetoric and our beliefs were shown to have been false, and we’d been helping to perpetuate oppression. People forget now that, until the very end, many socialist states, especially the DDR, were extremely successful at pumping out false propaganda that they were efficient, caring and humanist-driven. Hindsight blurs the past. So, long-winded answer, but politically I’d consider myself left-wing, but I’m not a member of any party and I’m disgusted at much of this new wave of Irish lefties, as their politics are closer to anarchism or crypto-fascism than socialism. It’s anti-tax, anti-democracy and disrespectful of the people it claims to serve. I’m also aware, sad to say, that socialism is at it’s best as a balance and check against regulated capitalism, as socialist-dominated societies are too vulnerable to corruption and the greed/laziness factor. Hope that answers your question.

Hey Nik …. Not that easy I’m affraid you say your socialist however not a supporter of any socialist in this country ….. What exactly would you like to see and further more how do we get it ?

Hey Nik …. Not that easy I’m afraid you say your socialist however not a supporter of any socialist in this country ….. What exactly would you like to see and further more how do we get it ?

Of course I support socialists in this country. Most of my older friends are socialists. They were the people I spent a hell of a lot of time with. That’s life. I’m not a member of an Irish political party, because the one I was a member of no longer exists. Again, that’s life. I don’t support this new-wave of left-wingers because, as I’ve said, Their arguments are fundamentally not left-wing. they are against government control and the wealth of the state being in the hands of the state. Taxation is presented as oppression. Wealth is being taken out of private hands! But isn’t that approaching a socialist state? But the money’s leaving the state to go to our nasty Foreign Shylocks. But here’s where the thorny issue of trying to balance a nationalist agenda with a socialist agenda, who should you feel more affinity with. Our good old home-grown capitalists or our fellow workers in Germany and France? The nationalist agenda has to favour the Irishman, the socialist agenda has to put the worker, any worker, as more important than nationality. And none of the various shades of left, from labour pink to Angry-as-a-bull red, can properly name who the opponent is. Us or them? But there is no US. That loose group floating unconvincingly around the ULA are closer to being embittered and disillusioned capitalists than socialists. They don’t want state
control of the nation’s wealth, they can’t have the wealth themselves, but they don’t want any other capitalistic to have it. So they spend more time bickering amongst themselves, when the basis of left-wing ideology Is solidarity.

@nik with respect to you and your history you know a lot more than me about socialism however you still failed to address my question of which all these arguments come from….. What is the way forward and how do we get there ?? When someone of any political background makes a statement u are there to either disagree or sometimes be just sarcastic . When are we going to c you come up with a solution ?

If you’re serious, the first step would be to institute a new rule about any public vote; if less than 65% of those eligible to vote cast an unspoilt vote, the result is invalid. Remove politicians who sail on public inertia. Have a two term maximum. Focus on solidarity, both at a national and international level. Accept that we’re tied into the EU, and isolationist own-currency pipe-dreams are not real alternatives in the short-term. Legalise and tax cannibis Legalise and tax prostitution.

Ok would agree with all that ,it makes sense ….. But it’s a bit light on detail about getting the country out of this mess , my point is the countrys crying out for change when anyone raises there head to say “hey I have an idea ” there shot down by people set in there own ways , face it were all the same we’re Tribal when it comes to politics that’s the first thing that must change

oooh I love this banter…..and one line comments

Willie
The ESRI are calling it correctly again. Just because you don’t like the message……

Says you Paddy!
I love informed debate.