You could say that about any subject they study in school.. but i do agree there is no need for religion to be taught at school. May be in a historical sense when they get older but the choice to teach your children about your faith should be left at home to the parents

Agreed,
The very fact that at primary level religion is thought just as much as English or Maths is frankly insane, in addition Ireland spends twice as much time teaching religion at primary level then the EU average.

Very bad use of school time,

I honestly think if would be the death of the church, if they couldn’t indoctrinate during school hours….. Which is nice.

How about replace religion classes in primary and secondary school with programming classes ?. Would be productive and provide very useful skills for later life, I imagine an entire young population of at least intermediate programmers would be very attractive to investors. That or teach a foreign language instead of it . Either would be more beneficial to young people and probably more appreciated.

There’s a difference between teaching about religions and teaching religion as fact. It would be almost impossible to understand why Ireland is the way it is without reference to its religious history, & the same applies to most countries.

Still, there’s way too much time spent on it.

Nonsense literacy time is approx 10 hours per week, religious instruction 1 hour 40 mins.

Even better substitute it with a programming language.

Oh ye of little faith. Why don’t ye just bunch together and educate your own children any way ye like. Children love learning and the fun they have preparing for first communion etc is mighty and part of the package. It also brings parents together at meetings which benefits them greatly. I’m just sick of the same old few bashing the catholic faith. We all got a great education from the nuns, brothers. If they didn’t teach, most of ye wouldn’t be able to read and write. Instead of criticising religion the whole time, why don’t ye protest up at the Dail over property tax etc. bullies pick on easy targets, just lay off it gets very very boring yawn yawn yawn. Red thumb me now. I’m catholic and proud and I love it and I most definitely want religion to be part of my children’s curriculum.

Maire could you kindly share how religious indoctrination has benefited you in your life and what learnings you may bring to the table for the rest of us?

I’d distinguish learning about religion from religious education. For example, as part of my literature class, we read quite a bit of the Bible, which is incredibly helpful to enhance your understanding of art and literature. But we looked at it as a literature text, similar to Beowulf and the saga of Gilgamesh.

Ironically, it probably served the opposite effect as Catholic schools would intend: familiarity with the Bible breeded contempt for a lot of my classmates!

Hi Maire,

How’d you feel about children being prepared for a Jewish or Islamic ceremony instead of a Catholic one? Children love learning and I’m sure they’d have as much fun preparing for a Bar or Bat Mitzvah. It would also bring parents together at meetings which benefits them greatly.

‘Most of ye wouldn’t be able to read and write.’ I flippin’ love irony!!

When I went to school there were two non Catholics in the school, they had to sit outside during religion classes. So during these classes they learned nothing.

Made no sense, sooner religion is taken out of schools the better

Couldn’t it also make them targets for bullying?

Well, you might want to throw in a couple references to the effect it’s had on art and culture. I was baffled to have to explain what “road to Damascus moment” was to my religious Catholic partner a few weeks ago!

The art and culture it created was just very well executed (artistically speaking) propaganda at the end of the day. If you have the money, you can get the best talent and they did. Ill leave that to the art history teacher.

The art and culture it created was just very well executed (artistically speaking) propaganda at the end of the day. If you have the money, you can get the best talent and they did.

Motivation is irrelevant – a basic understanding of Biblical fables is helpful from a cultural perspective.

10 fold? WOW

I love the exaggeration!!

Yes ten fold, he’s struggled academically for years but this year he’s been top of his class on numerous occasions because of the extra hours not wasted on religious studies. Most parents don’t know (or don’t care) that their kids are wasting valuable study time in school being brainwashed about a faith that is dying out. If parents encouraged their children to think for themselves without the fear of reprisal in an afterlife that doesn’t exist the world would be a better place.

As Carl woud say “bull sh!t!”

Paul, you do realize “ten fold” would mean he was getting less than 10% in every test previously? So for him to be getting A- in a subject now would mean he was getting 8% or 9% in that subject before. Or to be getting Cs now, he was getting 5% before.

However, that’s not to say he isn’t experiencing a significant improvement. He may well be. But “ten fold”? That seems kind of implausible in any circumstance, let alone simply an extra 1-2 hours study a week.

I was excused from religion and used the time to get my homework done, the other kids were well jealous

Can I ask those demanding it be taught outside of hours: have you children and have they received the sacraments? With your consent? Nice to see the old “superstition” BA being trotted out again. Some things never change.

BA = BS

What exactly does that have to do with it? I’d like to expose my children to my religious values, but it’s important enough to me that I’m planning to sacrifice some time every Sunday to do so. It’s about parenting priorities – if you’re not that pushed on teaching them yourself, then it probably isn’t a priority to you.

Fortunately my sons teacher is extremely religious so he’s gained several extra hours per week with his resource teachers. Ten fold may have been a slight exaggeration, but only slight. His improvement has been significant now that he doesn’t have to listen to ghost stories about ‘zombie jews’ and ‘eternal life’.

Paul extra classes? 20 mins a day , must have put that free time to great use , please don’t distort issue with gross exaggeration

It is incredible that they still teach religion in schools.

I was never taught science which I would have loved, instead I know all about Mary and Joseph and poor little Jesus!

Never learned about evolution from the secondary school I went to, never mind the primary school. I did my Leaving Cert in 1991. I learned about it later from an Irish Times foldout I recall and also from a book I borrowed from a library in Athlone in 1991/1992. I was attending Athlone Regional Technical College at the time.

This is all anyone needs to know about religion and it only takes 30 min

http://youtu.be/oZgT1SRcrKE

I learned about evolution from a book I borrowed from Athlone library in 1955. Looks as if the censor was not quite on the ball at that time.

There’s a simple solution. Send the children to educate together schools. When things get bad enough, we do rely on faith. Don’t forget that!

Speak for yourself Dmc. I rely on my friends and family. I find I get much more of a response.

It is hard to understand.

I think the most damaging part is when we’re told that if something doesn’t make sense, “it’s a mystery” and shouldn’t be questioned. “I don’t know” is a perfectly acceptable answer. “I don’t know – can we think of some ways of trying to find out?” is a better one. “Shut up” is why we had the Dark Ages.

He is busy red thumbing

I know – great ”fun”
You are really showing the true colours, Superfry

Why would any sane person allow their innocent child brainwashed and handed to a corrupt organisation that abuses children?

It’s not really the teachers choice!

In secondary I had a teacher that explored all faiths, pretty much the same bulls**t but at least I got a better understanding of different faiths.

That’s what I remember of religion class in secondary school. Generally the teacher would make an effort in that direction for a couple of classes at the start of the year, and after that it would become a class to do your homework in.

Irony

Was just thinking the same

There have been a couple, though I disagree with them.

For my part I’d suggest the red thumbs are probably because some posters are being so hyperbolic and extreme in their comments that even many/most people who are secularists would take issue with them. Just because someone agrees RE should be done on students own time, at the parents/church’s expense, doesn’t mean that they’re going to agree that society should be purged of religion, or that religion is the font of all evil in the world.

They red thumbs are because people can see whats going on here.

They have a second article on here today, ”should less time be given in schools for preperation for the sacraments in religion class” – & quoting statistics that ” too much time was being given”.
Needless to say, – followed by (the usual), hundreds of anti catholic outrage & hatred.
So for this morning its ”lets attack religion in schools
Tomorrow it will be something else
They can headline, emphasise, or highlight whatever they want, – & the commenters will duly oblige.
Most people are not stupid, they can see whats happening.
Hence the red thumbs.

I would imagine that the red thumbs are a result of the comments section being filled with the usual anti-theism. Arguments for a secular education system don’t need to be wrapped up in the “zombie jews”, “sky fairies” and “brainwashing” comments do they?

sorry posted a reply as new comment accidently

The UK’s not secular. They have an official state religion and the head of state and the head of the state religion are one in the same.

I never called him a dangerous individual. I implied that if he agreed with state sponsored religious indoctrination of youth then he would be and I stick by that. I would be shocked if anyone came to any other conclusion.

Also, I have not in any comment above disregarded anyone else’s opinion, merelt sought more information and opinion to foster debate and clarify position.

My vitriol is not direcred solely at Catholicism mind (nor at individuals) but at all forms of organised religion. In this instance the topic is catholic education in state sponsored schools – something I am passionately against. I have a right to my opinion but more importantly you have a right to ignore me should you see fit. It would however seem most are in agreement with me, as per the swathe of green thumbs above.

I enjoy debating religion with anyone however quite often it seems I am more educated in catholicism than most “believers”. I find them incapable if open and honest debate. This saddens and angers me as I know that were their eyes opened they could enjoy this world for what it truly is and learn to love others unconditionally.

totally agree Carl,
but as you say, to generate the maximum anger & slagging, – thats the idea.

Stop totally agreeing with people and think for yourself!!!

Not many alternatives available, jimmy, unless you want them to emigrate, that is.

Jimmy doyou believe the state should be funding the religious indoctrination of Irish children?

Plenty of educate together schools out their to facilitate their needs

Answer the question Jimmy

I’m not aware of what schools are doing this but I do agree that religion should be taught on a curriculum that covers all aspects of different world religions like in the junior certificate programme but its key to still uphold the catholic ethos of the school

Nonsense Jimmy,

As for other choices, for the vast majority ther choices are very few and far between,

Also ask yourself this,
- The church gets to run the school to push its religion
- The church doesn’t have to pay teachers..the state does
- The priests that visit the school are paid for by the state, if this funding alone was cut we’d be able to employee approx 250 new teachers in Ireland!

So given the tax payer pays why should the catholic church get to decide how the school is run and what religion is in it?

In the primary school sector, there are 65 Educate Together schools and over 3000 denominational schools.

Jimmy do you understand the difference between education and indoctrination? Expecting children to uphold a catholic ethos and not question or critically analyse that which they are being taught is indoctrination. Why should the state, and hence the taxpayer, pay for this?

I agree there has to be a revamp of the subject but definitely it’s key to hold the ethos of the school, it will cost the state millons to buy all the schools as they are owned by the Christian brothers etc, those who set up the great educational system we have today

Jimmy, really, there’s plenty of educate together schools? Sure about that?

I know atleast two sets of parents who are atleast 30miles from a educate together school, their local schools are literally 1-2miles down the road.

What do you purpose for these parents?,

Should they throw the kid onto a bus for a 2hour+ round trip each day for school (if a bus service even exists), perhaps the parents should drive the approx 350miles extra per week to drop their kids to school?

Or it would make far more sense to have state funded schools not run by the catholic church and not pushing the catholic ethos.

Jimmy again I would ask you to answer the question – Do you believe the state should pay for religious indoctrination of Irish children?

Jimmy, there’s an easier solution, the state doesn’t have to buy any school.

The church merely tells the church run schools that teachers that the state pays for won’t be teaching the catholic ethos and that the school education plans will in no way by used to push the catholic faith like it is.

The church can take it or leave it, if they leave it then they are stuck with a bunch of empty buildings and land.,

The state pays for these teachers as such it gets to call the shots here,

If the church wants to push its own religion it can do so outside of the normal education plans and outside of school hours,

Jimmy given your lack if response then let me answer for you.

If you answer no then you are a hypocrite.

If you answer yes then you are a dangerous individual who strongly needs to question his morality.

By failing to answer you have shown yourself to be an individual of no moral conviction.

I hope at the very least I might have opened your eyes slightly and you may begin to question your own beliefs.

Well said Jimmy. Short memories indeed.

By my clock it’s 11am in Ireland, you lads seem to have a lot of free time on your hands.

The morning commute allows plenty of free time

Batman works nights Kevin.

Please learn to use quotations correctly. None of your observed quotes have actually been used on this thread ergo you argument is now invalid.

I was using hyperbole to mock the usual intolerant mob of bigots sorry have upset you Batman.

hyperbole, you hit the nail on the head there Carl.

p.s. intolerance of bullshit is not bigotry.

agree Carl
It will be a different topic tomorrow, – followed by the USUAL hundreds of comments, of anti catholic hatred.
-all along the same lines.

It is not unreasonable that so many here are so anti religion,
when you take into account the history of the catholic church and the fact that most of us in this country were “educated” with a strong creationist philosophy from a very young age.
My experience was in a rural catholic primary school which I presume was similar in its teachings as the majority of Irish citizens. We were taught biblical mythology as undeniable historical fact, it is no mystery why so many people become angry once they develop the ability to reason and think for themselves (sadly many never seem to achieve this incredible ability)
The truth is that the only reason most people remain or consider themselves catholic is because of a sense of tradition and identity, and also probably the fear of god which was instilled at such a young age.
It is morally unjustifiable to fill young minds with beliefs dressed up as facts especially when they are led to believe that the fate of their eternal soul rests on them accepting them without question.

Paddy,
we can be ‘brainwashed’ – & our opinions & valued shaped in all kinds of ways OTHER than ‘religion’
The media for example,
– they can profoundly shape our society, with the power of words & headlines. Have you ever thought about the power & influence they have?
There are numerous ways that we are ‘brainwashed’ on a daily basis, – & far more subtle & effective ways than ANY religion.

Zoe are you incapable of defending your faith? Or is The Journal not an accurate snapshot of society that we can safely say this is how the majority of people truly feel?

I’m sorry Zoe, I don’t understand what point you are trying to make or how it is connected to the teaching of religion in schools…..
The media is generally concerned with the dissemination of information, usually dealing with factual and current issues.
Granted it is created by individuals who may have their own agendas and opinions,
most people realize that all media is subjective and fallible.

Are you saying that you are anti-media but pro-religion?
is religious brainwashing ok but all other forms are bad?

sorry I don’t get it..

Alan – if you want to believe whats here is an ‘accurate snapshot of society’, – then that fine
Thats your choice.
But all I’m saying is everything in the media can be ‘spun’, headlines, opinions, commentaries, quotes.
Most media has that immense power, to influence our society attitudes & values.
Religion is ‘old hat’. There are far more powerful & subtle ways influencing our opinions than mere ‘religion
Don’t necessarily believe everything you read, – & read between the lines!

Zoe – you’re preaching to the coverted here (for want of a better expression) on media influence and bias. The greatest lesson I was ever taught was to question everything. Before forming an opinion on anything you must examine the facts and research for yourself. When I applied that teaching to my religion (at age 15 when I actually sat down and read the bible front to back twice) I realised it was all bullshit, some good stories but mostly bullshit. I realised that I had been lied to my whole life. My eyes were opened and honestly reading the bible was the best thing to ever happen to me.

you seem to be wandering off topic there Zoe,
I thought this was a discussion about teaching religion in schools,
not about the medias ability to shape public opinion..
the media is a tool for discussing and expressing opinions.
Is it that you are angry with the media because it sometimes questions
or is in opposition to your personal beliefs?

“Don’t necessarily believe everything you read, – & read between the lines!”

OYG!!!

You,Zoe,defender of the faith are seriously suggesting the above and you don’t recognise the irony of your words ??? Thanks,that gave me a good laugh :-)

Paddy
the word ‘brainwashing’ was used by a few commenters, to describe the role of the church in education.
There is a second article in the Journal earlier this morning, regarding the church in schools.
All I am saying is that there other factors, that can influence our opinions in society & our education.
And that can be done in a far more subtle & clever way, than religion could ever do.

well in fairness it is brainwashing when you take a young child and construct and ingrain metaphysical ideologies into their consciousness and convince them that this is the only truth and to question or deviate from it will lead to eternal damnation..
I don’t know of any other “factors” in our society that do this..
perhaps there is but they are just too subtle & clever for me to notice,
you tell me, what are they?

easy, – just look in front of you.

I see an article about how more teachers are becoming unwilling to teach something that they do not believe in or agree with and people sharing their opinions in the discussion..
what do you see?

you see whatever you want,
& no doubt ‘the Journal’ will supply more of the same tomorrow.
- no further comment.

good point Zoe,
I may have to rethink my opinions after this thought provoking debate.
thank you for showing me the error of my ways. x

that’s cool the way you like your own comments before anyone else sees them…
well done you !!
twas a great comment in fairness though

It’s the Holy Ghost at work.

Because I was brought up a catholic? Sorry I fail to see your point. My point is I stopped believing in a God for my own reasons, which I’ll not bore you with. There’s so many things I learnt that science can’t explain for example, what happened before the ‘Big Bang’. Everything has a beginning which I’ve learnt. I’ll not tell you the main reason I came back to religion because again, it’s personal to me and I’m too tired to be ridiculed.

if you are interested in the opinion of someone who is not without a developed sense of spirituality and ideology,
I would have to question the so called christianity of the catholic church.
It seems to me that the church is what Christ would have been fundamentally opposed to.
But perhaps that is only the christ that is in me.
It does not resonate,
in fact it disgusts me.

So where does ‘God’ live then? (and what does he do with all the money?)