Thanks, Hugh. If true, it will b interesting to hear their response.

No-one jailed or even charged for the murder of over 350 little children in Gaza. IOF terrorist filth.

Ha Ha! You can’t beat a pre-emptive strike can you! :-)

Well, they are all red herrings. So, what about them? Most of the above is internal strive. The Israel/Palestinian issue is a dispute over illegal occupation and control of another people’s territory.

It would be like saying to someone who’s helping a homeless man with shelter – “But what about that old lady crossing the road?” Israel could end this today if the ended all settlements, moved back to the 67 lines and made members of the IDF more accountable when they kill civilians.

It seems British Airways refused to take 7 of the so -called Irish “activists”. That’s why they couldn’t leave. It’s up to BA to answer that one. It seems these so-called activists could have left earlier when the Canadians did & per reports, our Irish officals in Israel have not & never had any probs or issues with their detention. Once again it seems that many will do almost anything to taint Israel in a bad light. Very little seems to be balanced, fair or just when it comes to this country. I’m braced for the thumbs down. Just gimme a sec till I make a cuppa T !!! Plus – there was “no” humanitarian aid on board the flotillas at all. We have enough probs in our own country we ought to be concerning ourselves with. Let the Israelis & Palestinians work out their own probs.

they arent trendy enough topics

You took the words out of my mouth. These guys have yapped on about Israel for years blindly ignoring the fact that Israelis look like models of humanitarianism when compared to their neighbours. One sided. Their agenda is oh America supports Israel so we must highlight all their ills. The plight of the people of Gaza is a genuine cause but only when taken in context of the overall conflict. This is using genuine human rights as a political beating stick.

Declan did you take the same attitude to the south African apartheid situation too? Israel is a bully who the rest of the world needs to stand up to. They have a Nuclear bomb why? These weapons will be the end of all life on earth. Why does every one focus on Iran for developing nukes? Why not invade Israel?

No, Naill C. I didn’t re S Africa. Iran is the bully here. They have threatened to nuke Israel off the map. They will do it if/when they are able to do it. Now – that’s what I call bullying. Not only would a nuke affect the territority that is Israel, but it would also wipe out Gaza & affect many other countries in the region. Think of all those deaths. Muslim, Jew & Christian alike. A nuclear hit doesn’t discriminate. Muslim, Jew & Christian do get on in Israel. Let them sort out their own probs themselves. As I said before, we in Ireland have our own probs. Let the Israelis & Palestinians sort out their own themselves.

Sorry, in case anyone hasn’t seen the many many previous threads on this topic, that opening post was ironic.

Declan, we both know that the “no aid” line has been shown to be false. And I don’t think it’s good that the rest of the world turns its back on rights abuses, remember the holocaust.

Cyril, makes no difference whether Israel is a shining paragon to the rest of the world on all other issues, and its neighbours cesspools of barbarity, on the issue of the blockade they’re in the wrong.

G’day, Niall M. I don’t think any1 is turning a blind eye to human rights violations at all. I argue for balance, fairness & justness & I also argue to let the Israelis & Palestinians work out a solution among themselves. Muslim, Jew & Christian “do” get on & let leave thm to it.

“let’s leave them to it”. Gremlins at work here at the mo.

Declan, I like to think of myself as pretty balanced on this … at least my mammy tells me that I am. And I think you are too. But I can’t see any justification for this blockade. Ideological concerns aside, I just think it’s a travesty.

The broader solution is something that’s beyond the scope of this discussion, but the I think that lifting the blockade would be a good first step.

Got the 1st skud in !!!

Sorry, Naill M. That was meant as a comical remark for your 1st comment after Brian War’s reply. Slip o’ the finger. I gave u a thumbs up for your last reply as I do agree with what you say. If the blockade is to be lifted, it’s up to the Israelis & Palestinians to work it out. That’s it.

Hi Niall, Jasyus you’re a great man for the cuppa T! I presume that was another slip of the thumb when you referred to me as Brian War’s! :-)

Mr.Gilmore should have put a stop to this ridiculous attention seeking journey in the first place,with his position he certainly should not be advocating Irish citizens attempting to break the Law.Trouble makers, and they had their flights home paid for by the Israelis, they did not refuse that help from Israel did they? If they care so much for the people of Gaza,how come they did not bring all that “well needed”(as they say) aid over and actually get it to Gaza the LEGAL way,instead of making a show of themselves,furthering foreign tensions and embarrassing this country even more than they have already.

Naomi why shouldn’t Israel pay for the flights? The protesters didn’t want to go to Israel in the first place. Their ship was boarded and commandeered in international waters and the passengers taken against their will to Israel. There surreal thing is that after been forced to enter Israel the were then charged with illegally entering and told that they were being deported! It’s much the same as the Gardai stopping me on O’Connell Street, throwing me into a shop and then arresting me for trespassing! The Navy boarded the ships, could find no weapons on board so why not allow the ship on it’s way? What will the Israeli Navy do next? Wait off the coast of Ireland to stop ships in international waters and send them at gunpoint back to port to save Israel the cost of deportation.

If Israel are whining about the cost of sending these people home they shouldn’t have brought them into Israel in the first place!

Naomi they were going to Gaza the LEGAL way. They were not going to Israel and had no intention of doing so. They had their boats hijacked ILLEGALLY in International Waters by Israel and were ILLEGALLY kidnapped and taken against their will to Israel. The Embassy of the criminal Israeli state should be shut down and all staff on the next plane out of Ireland for good.

Ah sure missed flights or not won’t the poor dears be back just in time to mount a demo outside the American embassy in support of their good friends Iran? A good time to get into the Iranian flag printing business…

Heh, fair play Declan for booting through the pre-emptive strike goal. Was wondering how long it’d take. I just want to point out something before I go and do some work:

” The study showed that the prevalence of anemia was 72.8% among children. Anthropometrical indices showed that the prevalence of wasting, stunting, underweight were 34.3%, 31.4%, 31.45% respectively”

http://www.springerlink.com/content/921411r614888501/
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13623699.2011.562395

These are peer-reviewed, scholarly articles. Not propaganda. This is what we’re talking about here, anything else is a discussion for another day.

If anyone thinks that military tactics that lead to child starvation can be legitimate, they need to go take a long hard look in the mirror.

Exactly. Check out the other thread.

thank god, weve enough to be embaressed about

Your spelling and punctuation to start with.

Noel they were not going to Israel. They were going to Gaza. The only reason they ended up in Israel is because Israel hijacked their boats and kidnapped them in International waters and brought them to Israel against their will. Do you support Israel hijacking an Irish boat and kidnapping Irish citizens?

Hey Cal Mooney, if you only want to read stuff you agree with stick to the mainstream media.And as for supporters of Israel (not necessarily its Government) being paid for posting on Journal.ie? If only….

Very weak attack, Cal. “Propaganda”, as u say, can b a 2 way street used by all. As for me, I speak for myself.

Don’t know what all the fuss is about. Dozy twits fell asleep and missed their free flights.

Well informed as usual Dario. They must have been sleepwalking when they frogmarched off the plane.

Do you just have a daily one size fits all comment that you copy and paste about the place? Lazy, lazy, lazy.

So you support ALL UN reports then Barry ??? Didnt think so, you cant pick pieces of some reports that suit your view point while ignoring others. I asked you on many other threads, have you ever been to Gazza or to the Westbank ??? I have, and i know Bulls*it propoganda when i hear it…

I’ve answered that question and said yes.

” Didnt think so” How hugely arrogant of you and a complete load of “whataboutery” as Niall would say. Are all of them correct. I’d say on the outset they’d most likely be so. The background of the composer of the reports would have to be investigated. eg.Libya when it was head of the UN HUman Rigjts committee was in no position to lecture anyone on human rights. But this was a very mixed committee with both Israeli’s and Turks and New Zealanders involved.

I am not ignoring others.Your presuming I am. The fact STILL REMAINS. The Palmer Report found the Gaza Naval blockade legal.

Look you can lower the tone all you wnat Cal with your irrational foul language.I have no desire to go down to that level. Thanks

Desmond Tutu who has experience of fighting apartheid disagrees with you Barry. Israel IS an APARTHEID state!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1957644.stm

Wow.Yes the BBC. Whose only Regulatory body found it biased against Israel is a great source.
Judge Goldstone. Who was part of the Truth and Reconcilliation process in S.A said it’s not. So you’ve one who says it is and can find many more.I’ve one who says its not and can find many more.

A country with Arab judges,Arab politicans,Arab mayor’s,Arab Ambassador’s, Arabic as an offical language and the Islamic calender is an offical calender ,Is nothing like South Africa

So lets just agree to disagree

Barry nice attempt to avoid the issue. Its not the BBC saying it – it is Desmond Tutu a longtime opponent of South African Apartheid who said that ISREAL is an APARTHEID state. Also interesting that re the Palmer report you ignored completely the fact that former Colombian President Uribe was one of those who composed the report. As with your comment re Libya, do you think that Uribe who is an unstinting supporter and ally of Israel, who has an appalling human rights record, who has an appalling record of repression including kidnapping torture and murder against trade unionists and other political opponents and who many human rights organisations believe was involved in and responsible for countless war crimes, is suitable to comprise any report relating to human rights or war crimes violations?

I’m not making any comment on this issue, have done enough of that over the weekend.. I just wanted to make a small point, with respect, if I may..

With regards the articles posted and rejected above..

The BBC is rejected as a biased source (despite the article being about Desmond Tutus’ views), but an article from Haaretz (Jewish media) and Jewishideas.org (perhaps self explanatory) is considered non biased?

If you were to apply that rationale of the address in the link vs the content of the page they could both be deemed biased..

No kettles or pots here!! Just sayin :)

Great to see the brave Blocade Busters having success already: http://www.tahrir.ca/content/israel-announces-easing-ban-some-exports-gaza

Every naval blockade, without exception, takes place in International waters. It would be impossible to maintain a blockade otherwise. The arsonist and the firefighter are not morally equivalent. Nor is the criminal and the police officer, Your Somali pirate/IDF equivalence is BS.

Were any on these flotillas unable to return to their own home towns due to the Pogroms? I’m not sure we share the same sense of humour.

These who would be people fleeing post Holocaust Europe?? Hardly the same as a Former TD who is happy to be shaking hands with the President of Syria.

Considering that this was 1947 and a lot of these ships were coming from France and some from the US I don’t think that using the Pogrom excuse is valid. Sure, during the War getting the hell out of Europe was essential but after the defeat of the Third Reich what excuse was there for breaking the blockade? Don’t get me wrong Draken, I’m not laughing at others misfortune I am merely ironically and somewhat cynically amused that this is another example of one rule for Israel and another for everyone else.

They are not even in the same league. How you think they even are makes me laugh. The mass extermination of Jews had just ended, Yes some were coming from the USA and France because they had fled there and now wanted to head to the one place where they knew they could be safe. They’d lost everything else. They’d nothing. The ideals of a Jewish homeland was probably the last thing they had to hold on to. So please explain to me.How a former Rugby player and a Ex TD is in any way similar.

The defeat of the Third Reich did not mean that Jewish people who were in concentration camps were just allowed home. A huge number were killed on returning home after their “liberation” from the concentration camps. It was not a case of just returning home and everything would be OK. Thousands were held in camps in Cyprus for minimum of two years after their “Liberation” so it was not just over when the Third Reich fell.

And its not comparable to these Flotillas.

Barry what were they fleeing in Europe? Germany was defeated and order restored so where was the threat.?
As for shaking hands with the President of Syria maybe you would also condemn Rabin shaking hands with Arafat, Rumsfeld with Saddam, Mc Guinness with Robinson. It’s easy to condemn symbolic acts like a handshake but in the real world if you a going to be petty about things like this then you will get no where in diplomacy. If it took shaking hands with Assad so that I could pull him up and take him to task for the atrocities that he is imposing on his people then I would gladly do it.

Brian, You clearly are well-informed about Middle-Eastern affairs in the 1940s. What’s your take on Palestinian support for Nazi Germany? (I’d say the Grand Mufti had many symbolic handshakes with the Fuhrer).

Draken the reason that they were held in Cyprus was because they tried to break through the British blockade which is exactly the same thing that the Gaza flotilla were doing. The way you make it out is that they were hearded into the Cyprus camps for no reason which is not the case.

Barry if these people had nothing as you say how did they pay for passage? Were they not safe in the US or was there pogroms gong on there that I never heard of? “France became a haven for postwar refugees and within 25 years its Jewish population tripled.” http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/France.html#Post-Holocaust%20Era sounds safe enough to me.

How does it relate to the Gaza flotilla? As I’ve already stated Israel seems to think that there is one rule of law for Israel and another for everyone else.

Ha Brian, That is very mislead. Not every single ship tried to break the blockade. There were only a handful. But even when there were ships filled with post holocaust refugees who did not try to break the blockage, the Jewish people were detained. You are only using half the information out there.

Well Charles considering that the Nazi’s and Hitler supported the Haavara Agreement and Lehi proposed working with the Nazi’s to expel the Brits from Palestine in exchange for an independent State, I would say that no one is free from criticism. Adolf was clearly playing both sides with Lehi on one hand and the Grand Mufti on the other. Whatever about the Mufti the fact that Lehi proposed an alliance with the very monsters that were exterminating their fellow brethren is truly bizarre.

Draken I am going by http://israelvets.com/home.html which I am sure you will agree is decidedly on the side of the Israeli “clandestine” (illegal) immigrants. The point is that they tried to break a blockade that was in force and then got interned in Cyprus as well as other places. Why is it OK for Israeli’s to break blockade’s that they felt were unjust but it is not OK for anyone else to take the same stand? You saw the size of the Irish boat so can you tell me how the could conceivably conceal weapons on board even if they wanted to? Are you telling me that the British blockade was illegal because if it was then how were the immigrants “illegal”?

There’s something in what you say about Lehi Brian, but basically you’re comparing apples and oranges.The Palestinian leader of the time seems to have been pretty comfortable with the Final Solution.

I know where you are coming from Mark but I think that it’s fair to say that during war the strangest bed fellows are made. The Grand Mufti rightly deserves condemnation for sucking up to Hitler but I’d nearly expect it from him. Lehi on the other hand, well what can I say. I have to admit that I am not too well up on that period and theater of operations at that time. The whole area was a mess. I mean Sir Herbert Samuel appointed Haj Amin al-Husseini as Grand Mufti. Samuel was a non practicing Orthodox Jew who appointed an Arab nationalist extremist to a position of power. The Arab extremist tried to do a deal with a Nazi fascist who in turn had done a deal with Jewish Zionists to get rid of British imperialists. It’s going to take me a while to work all of that out!

Confusing indeed Brian. Unlike the contemporary eliminationist rhetoric emanating from the leadership of Iran,puppet-master and would-be arms-supplier of Hamas.

Brian, you seem to base things off just a handful of websites. Have you ever talked to people who were on those ships or in those camps in Cyprus? Heck, there was a documentary in the BBC a few weeks ago that covers the topic better than you. Even Wikipedia, which isn’t a very reliable source of information on most topics, doesn’t think that tens of thousands of people on several boats all tried to break a blockade. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_in_British_camps_on_Cyprus)

The biggest difference is that those people who tried to break the blockage (and that’s not a majority of them like you seem to think they were) were not doing is as apart of a publicity stunt.

As for the size of the Irish boat. If it didn’t have sufficient room for weapons (I never said anything about weapons at all but whatever), then there certainly was insufficient room for humanitarian aid.

Considering that it was 1947 and my parents were only 2 years old at the time it would be hard for me to talk to any of those people all though I don’t see what purpose that would serve any way. The figures that I have found vary from 73-100,000 people attempting to illegally enter Palestine and by your own link 51,000 were detained in camps. The last time I looked 51,000 counts as tens of thousands in anyone’s language.

I referred to weapons because that is supposedly why the ships were diverted and I didn’t mean to imply that you had brought it up, my apologies if I gave that impression. I certainly do not claim to be an authority on the blockade running of the time however the sites that I have cited are all non partisan and in fact are actually sites that could be said to support the actions of the time. I deliberately picked those sites so as not to open to criticism that I had gone to the usual crackpot sites that some people use to justify their claims. The Jewish Virtual Library and Israel Vets surely cannot be accused of providing an anti Jewish or Israeli agenda.

As for the people on the boats they were running a blockade which has been my point all along. While I am repeating myself again the running of a blockade is illegal according to Israel and stopping and boarding ships in International waters is perfectly OK unless of course you are an illegal Israeli immigrant in which case a different rule of law applies. Why is this the case? Why is there one rule of law for Israel and one for the rest of the world?

The blockade on Gaza now is to stop the transport of weapons to Gaza (which is a real threat). A blockade means no ships get through. Its the only way it can be effective (and if its a semi blockade, there is a high risk os smuggling in strange and unexpected ways).

The blockade from the 1940’s was specifically against Jewish people. But then, in the British Mandate, there were so many laws against just Jewish people. (Did you know that other groups were allowed entry to the British Mandate, so long as they were not Jewish?). Paint it any way you like, the situations are very different.

As for the international waters issue that so many people complain about. The idea of a marine blockade is to stop marine vessels from entering national waters and then to stop it making it to land. That is the idea of a blockade.It doesn’t make sense to wait for them to be in national waters.