The referendum commission is a feckin joke, It has never done anything to inform the electorate and it only ever contains the text of each treaty. Does the commissioner get well paid for this, if so huge waste of money.

All the politicians have been lying to us…i dont know why we bother…

Mensah Mensah
We bother because we care .

Ann, the Government Booklet is separate from the Referendum Commission. The Referendum Commission have to be completely independent and so they have nothing to do with this. Their website is “referendum2012.ie”.

@susie,i dont care anymore even if they pay me to vote…i wouldnt..

I’m going to bet Gary that the red thumb was from your good self.

You know I believe it was. If I have time I will explain why though, if that helps.

@Fagan’s a well made point…its a done deal. The rest of Europe is waking up to the fourth reichs intentions. This will be a resounding NO in Ireland.

Look, I’m a no voter. But the anti-German/4th Reich idiocy gets me going. Do us all a favour.

Why do you care you already made you’re mind up on what way you are voting

John regardless of my voting intentions as a registered voter am i not entitled to the treaty information that the act governing referendums says i am?

They know we are telling the truth and are comfortable with it . They are flogging a dead horse !

So the fact they have said pretty much the exact same things for every EU treaty is not enough?
Sovereignty eh?
2012
““We in Sinn Féin have already commenced our campaign against the Austerity Treaty and I urge everyone here to play their part. Bring the message to every door in Dublin and ensure a massive ‘NO’ vote on 31st May. Let us assert, in the words of the Proclamation, our ‘right to national freedom and sovereignty’. Reject this Treaty, reject austerity, there IS a better way.”.”

On Lisbon in 2008
“Sinn Féin was the only party to oppose the Lisbon Treaty, pointing out the dangers for our sovereignty.”

Eu Constitution 2005
Sinn Féin European Affairs spokesperson in the Dáil, Aengus Ó Snodaigh TD, has said the Government’s draft constitutional amendments go further than ratifying the EU Constitution and would rule out almost any future referral of fundamental matters of Irish sovereignty to the people.

Nice treaty 2003
“We saw in the Nice referendums how many people share our concern at the pace of European integration. People are worried about our loss of independence, the erosion of our sovereignty and the disappearance of Irish neutrality.”

etc etc etc. Yet in an ironic twist it was us going mental fuelling a property bubble that has brought here and now. All the while the EU warned us about it but had no actual power to stop us.

Can you describe how your examples relate to your claims that sinn fein were ‘misleading the irish people’?

Thanks

One last go… They have said the exact same things about every EU treaty and these things have not come to pass. And if we want to believe they are happening now it’s because we fuelled a property bubble and wrecked the economy, but the twist is even thought SF claimed we had lost our sovereignty at very turn the EU had no power to actually stop us. It’s be funny it we weren’t in the shít.

@Gary: remember the old Lisbon treaty slogan “vote yes for jobs” which FFg were promoting?? Could one infer that this may have been misleading now in hindsight? As far as I remember Sinn Fein were correct at the time in their analysis of what the ratification of the Lisbon treaty meant for Ireland. This is just one glaringly obvious example of many why your tangental argument here is not well supported.

Just the same way , FG have been saying the same thing for the same referendums that you mention. So Gary it is swings and roundabouts … Funny that SF could get over so many past hurts but FG/Lab and FF are all still fighting the civil war and where on the surface we can all get on , but when something like a referendum like this comes along then all the old hurts resurface …..

Complete crap gary. Take lisbon, guarantees on our soverignty had to be given after sinn fein successfully campaigned for the no vote on the first run. And wheres the jobs? You haven’t backed up a single claim gary.

Thanks for playing.

Gary, don’t vote yes just because you don’t like Sinn Fein and the motley crew of causes that are campaigning for a no vote.

Judge this on the facts!

Just because the Greeks are wrong, does not make Merkel right.

Trueleft. Yes guarantees had to be given on Lisbon as so much crap was talked about the contents of the treaty. We voted no for the most part on things that weren’t in the bloody treaty. For this kind of shíte http://www.coircampaign.org/index.php/materials-documents/posters

Now I’m going to try to explain this one more time for the slow out there. I do this about once a week but it doesn’t seem to sink in.
Recession/bubble bursts = Mid 2008
Lisbon treaty law = December 2009
How the fluppin hell could the Lisbon treaty make up for the hundreds of thousands of jobs that were lost in the recession/bubble *before* it came into force. Is there something you don’t get about this?

cencoered. I couldn’t care less about Sinn Fein or any political party. Well as long as Sinn Fein never get to try out their economic policies in the real world.

Jamie Judge. Nothing Sinn Fein have said about *any* treaty has actually happened. Yet they keep saying it and some people keep listening to it. More fool them.

Very presumpuous of you to state why people voted no gary, did you conduct a private poll or do you have crystal balls?

Trueleft. Do you recall the opinion polls that were run at the time. The ones the government used to get the guarantees on. Ring a bell?

It’s funny I’ve been called Garyclowny in primary school and twice in the Journal. I think that sums it up.

Hmm I wonder what other exporting nation would gain… oh wait it’s Ireland.

Shayno: Care to explain how Germany grows stronger financially, the weaker the peripheral countries are? We are all in the euro. Therefore, their exports don’t become cheaper. They stay the same price. Germany grows stronger, we grow stronger too.

The No side are weak at presenting the facts. Vote Yes.

We would gain more by exporting with our own currency which would be weaker than the euro, we could set our own interest rates and devalue when needed

And what about all our imports?

Paul, the Euro is weaker than the Deutchmark because the PIIGS use it, this means the Germans gain on exports, they loaned money to the PIIGS which we used to buy German products ( VW, Mercedes, Siemens) so they gain twice. There was a very good programme on BBC on Wednesday night explaining this you should check it out, also this article from Dave McWilliams explains it too.http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2012/05/07/lets-talk-about-germany

Imports! You want your exports cake AND eat it Gary?
Buy Guaranteed Irish

Vote NO .

Oh, good grief! Devaluation. Yes, we’ll certainly devalue if we readopt the punt. Then Fianna Fail will come roaring back in future elections because they were the masters of making all sort of lavish promises, devaluing the currency once in office to pay for them all. The catch-all party, remember them, that we now know to be the corrupt party. The primacy of the parish pump will be reasserted.

We’re the only English speaking country in the Eurozone. That is a VERY STRONG selling point for us, remarked upon recebtly by those with money, not the Yanks, I mean the Chinese.

Vote Yes.

Paul FG & FF have made the same promises in all the Euro referendums.
Where’s the jobs?
Where’s the security?
Where’s the investment?
If you want lavish promises look no further than FG/Lab at the last election!

Ahhhh ……
another good grief man.

Paul, i must try to introduce you to my
old friend Felix Causidy.

You may yet find yourself alone at a closed polling station.
And I know if it does go ahead more and more people are waking
up to the farse that is the Fiscal Treaty.

Personally, i hope it goes ahead.

John O’Donoghue has got the Fianna Fail slogan prepared for the next general election: “You tried the rest, now bring back the best”.

If thats what you believe then you can’t really have
much of a finger on the ‘pulse’.

One small example, did you read the article about the english geezer
walking to dublin wanting to hear from people about setting up a new
political party.

There is a real sense of change being afoot.
It will take time, several years maybe,
but it’s a comin me boy!

@paulcarr
That slogan is fcuking laughable !! And I’m laughing, a hard thing for me to do! Next joke please

Shayno, If Germany were motivated to increase their exports they would let the euro devalue. This is precisely what they DO NOT want to happen. The last thing Germany under Merkel wants is inflation. This is why they haven’t allowed the ECB to pursue a policy of quantitative easing by printing money and eroding the debt that way.
It makes sense for Germany to have stronger “peripheral” (whatever that means) states as then they have markets that can afford to buy their exports.

Fianna Fail are down but not out. Their first defeat in 80 years last February still hasn’t sunk in yet. And to come third!

If Fianna Fail win no seats in the Dail in the 2016 election with Eamon O’Cuiv at the helm, then I’ll tentatively offer that Fianna Fail do indeed appear to be in some difficulty.

The Euro has been a good thing for us.

To those who are calling for restoration of the punt – on very dubious arguments:
1. a stable currency is good for business
2. our debts will still be in euros
3. you want to put the cretins in Dail Eireann in charge of our currency????
4. we are a small country and would be very exposed to currency speculators

This devaluation argument is just nuts. We should vote no to the fiscal compact because it’s a bad idea, not because we want to destroy the EU (or our country)

Germany grow stronger under the Euro, if the euro fails which it is destined to do then Germany will have to go back to their old currency. Which will be worth far more than any other currency in the EU due to their economic strength. Therefore staying in the cheaper Euro maintains their competitiveness to trade with their number one exporter Europe and their second China.

The Deutschmark would also mean it is more expensive for Germany to secure debt from the markets. Which means it’ll lose even more money when shoring up all of it’s bad banks debts across Europe.

This is the main reason why Germany are championing the fiscal compact. It only benefits Germany while subjugating the rest of Europe to ensure Germany remains strong and the most powerful nation in Europe.

And that is why we should all vote No. McWilliams and Kruger have more data and financial jargon on the above.

Given that in all likelihood the treaty is going to be amended, the goalposts have moved. We’d be nuts to vote on a treaty whose contents are going to be changed.

Ignoreland
If you don’t get it ,you can not be taught it . It is something you feel , it is part of being a true Irish person.
another good book to read is one written by Paul Murphy MEP -Austerity Treaty explained . Very comprehensive explanation.

Soz, not the Commission, the ECJ can fine them if the Commission brings a case before it.

Soz it”s the ECJ that issues the fine, not the Commission.

Up there with http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1117/economy.html Stephen.

The fact is we believed them about Lisbon 1 and 2 – pile of lies all of it – were are the great friends in Europe now, all the jobs? The only places with jobs are Australia and Jeopardy. More jobs are in jeopardy every day

Ah but that pile of dung they sent out doesn’t count as it’s looking for a no vote. It’s only scaremongering and exaggeration when it’s promoting a yes, didn’t you know?

Nigel Farage is a very wise man and stands alone in the European parliament in condemnation of the elitist policies the european integration project are being based around. Look him up on YouTube and watch some of his speeches. He tears Gay Mitchell a new one in a recent debate, which is quite entertaining to watch ;)

Do you have a link for that Jamie?

Loved the irony of getting a leaflet from Nigel Farage telling me not to do what foreign politicians tell me to do!

The ironing is delicious.

Shame on the no side ? Are you for real ?
Tony Stack . Phil Hogan has every thing to do with the austerity treaty . higher taxes to pay off dead banks and Crooked bankers and unsecured bond holders ….. All are connected .Like the bones in a body … This government got in on LIES , LIES and more LIES. Kenny is proven to be a coward and the hoghogan is as in ept as they come except for veradkar and every other minister in cabinet. All they want is austerity and they want to sign it into our constitution forever and a day…..
Shame on the Yes side more like :VOTE NO

There are just as many nutters on the yes side, as there are on the no side. Unfortunately, one of them is our “leader”.

Sure after reading the treaty I’m going to vote yes, but I have to say if Nigel Farage from the UK Independence party and his buddies in Europe were on my side I’d really be wondering about what I believed.

censored. You can argue back and forth about government leaflets being ‘biased’ but I’ve only heard the really crazy stuff from no campaigners. And it’s the same with every treaty with Europe.

Adams is the head of the no side. He requested a debate with the head of the yes side. Perfectly reasonable. Martin is the leader of the 3rd biggest party advocating a ‘yes’ vote. The only reason he’s been so active in the media is to head off a leadership challenge in his own party by being seen attempting to drag the party out of irrelevance on the political stage. If kenny believes in the treaty, he should sac up.

Who’s Michael Martin again?

As you are claiming they are past masters at misleading the public gary, I guess you can list some examples for us all?

A look over there post.

Well I can start with a week ago when they very selectively quoted economists to make it look like they were promoting a no vote when they were actually seeking a Yes vote. You really want to play this game?
And keep in mind that Sinn Fein (the pro-EU party!!) have campaigned against every referendum we’ve had on Europe, while saying basically the same things about each one. If that doesn’t show dishonesty I don’t know what will.

Love it Gary, lets not debate the issue on the news-thread that the Government are again deliberately using Tax Payers resources to mislead the public, lets throw more mud at the No side and try to confuse people.

Cal the point is that *Sinn Fein* are claiming the leaflets ‘mislead the public’. As I mentioned I haven’t seen the leaflets but given Sinn Fein’s previous form I’ll take what they say with a very large pinch of salt. Aside from the fact they are really past masters at spin and fudging the issues themselves.

Gary, once more for slow readers… The Government just used Tax Payer money to send out supposedly “independent” information leaflets to ‘inform’ the public… This news item highlights that they very very conveniently forgot to include crucial details like ‘big fines’ that could be imposed on the Irish people, if we don’t manage to meet the EU targets. You really don’t see anything wrong with this?

Again I haven’t seen the leaflets. But (again) I’m not going to take Sinn Fein’s word they are biased, or yours for that matter. I’ll look at them and decide for myself.
And the fines are only an issue if we break the rules and then don’t attempt to sort it out. Why the hell would we do that?

Wrong gary. They did not ‘selectively’ quote economists to make it look like they were promoting a no vote. Nowhere on the literature did it even suggest the economists in question were voting ‘no’. Two of the three economists in question admitted on the radio that the quotations were accurate. Fine Gael spin aside, it was manufactured outrage that just so happened to appear the same day sinn fein brought attention to the bias fine gael inserted on the official referendum website.

Anything else?

Jasus,
are yis still goin on about this treaty.
it’s dead in the water, a goner, bye bye.

What are those jasus eejits in gubbermint thinking?
It’s over gary.

Trueleft. What they did is *exactly* what selectively quoting is.
They quoted Karl Whelan “… the economics of this treaty are pretty terrible …” Sounds like he’s suggesting a no vote.
But he said… “All that said, although I think the economics of this treaty are pretty terrible, on balance, the arguments favour Ireland’s signing up to it.” Not a ringing endorsement but a definite support for a yes.
They also selectively quote Colm McCarthy (“Voting No is a Leap in the Dark that We Can’t Afford“) and Seamus Coffey (“there is little to be gained from rejecting the Treaty“). These both sound like they are looking for a no but they are actually seeking a Yes.

On Sinn Fein’s website it says “Sinn Fein is an Irish Republican party. Its objective is … British rule in Ireland.” And since, according to you, selectively quoting doesn’t matter I’m shocked at their sudden change in direction.

Gary, man… you are just proving my point… you cant debate the news story… :D We all see through your tactics, you better come up with another one before polling day ….
I shouldnt offer them…. but here goes…

1) Get Germany to write off the 70 billion euro private banking debt (similar to what is going to be offered to Spain to bail out their banks).
2) All Government ministers and Taoiseach reduce their salaries to the average industrial wage until such times as we meet all the treaties requirements… Debt to GDP ratio of 60% and the 0.5% budget deficit.

I would be very very confident you could get the majority of people to vote YES if you do these two things, otherwise you can shove your YES vote.

Poor gary, still hanging onto the manufactured spin from fine gael that emerged just before the evening news cycle on the exact same day the main story was going to be about fine gael unlawfully placing biased material on the referendum website. The sinn fein leaflet stated the economists opinion of the treaty, not what their vote would be. Beut we all know that. Only the most rabid government apologists are still waving that non-story about.

Right, so thats one ‘example’, if you’ll call it that, I certainly don’t. Wheres the rest of your examples of sinn fein misleading the public.

Cal. 1. The ‘banking debt’ as you call it was made sovereign debt by the last government a few years back, basically all the original bondholders have been paid off. Why would ‘Germany’ or anyone give us 70 billion for that? Hey it’s a nice idea but why should they. Would we give them the money if the roles were reversed? I really doubt it. The problem here is the myth that we paid the money to German banks is still floating around even though there’s not one shred of proof for it. Want to see the real figures… http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=78616401&postcount=307 (all taken from our Central Bank figures)
2. Okay how much will that save? And if it’s more than 30 million I’ll be very surprised. We have a deficit of 14 billion this year alone.

Trueleft. Have you lost the plot? I quoted you exactly what was on the bloody leaflet Sinn Fein put out. And you’re calling it Fine Gael spin… what!?!?! It was the economists themselves that raised the issue… http://karlwhelan.com/blog/?p=359
I also clearly showed how selective quotes can be used to change the meaning of what someone said or the conclusions they came to.

gary,
are u not happy that this BS treaty is more than likely
goin to go down the toilet?
And hopefully go that way not by our hand?

Joseph. If the treaty falls by the wayside it will be replaced by another one, but that would take a good while to sort out. That would create uncertainty in the EU, which is not good for anyone. Creating a treaty between 27 different countries is a large and painful job, I’m almost surprised any ever get agreed on. Most countries appreciate how difficult these treaties are to negotiate so they will most likely just tweak a few things which we won’t need to vote again for. Only my opinion of course.
Besides If we need a referendum on a new treaty we are likely to be handing over new competencies to the EU and you guys will always see that as a loss of this mythical ‘sovereignty’ and will vote no.

Correct on one point
I will never ever vote to give the EU more power over me.

EVER

Gary, can you show us where the leaflet mentions that the economists will be voting no please. They were quoted on their remarks relating to the content on the treaty, not their vote.

So, wheres your other examples?

Trueleft if you can’t see what Sinn Fein did as dishonest then there is no point in discussing it further. I posted one set of examples below where you asked. I can keep going if you like, though it’s pretty boring.

Joseph. That’s the thing though isn’t it, you’ll vote no for this mythical sovereignty no matter what. I’m reading the thing and giving it an unexcited yes. And if a new one comes along I’ll read it and decide but you’ll still vote no.

Gary,
an unexcited yes???
For an unexcited man you do spend a lot of time and energy posting
on all matters fiscal treaty.

Of course ill read any possible future treaty,
i’m quite selective these days about what ill wipe me arse with :-)

Again Gary. Please post any reference, no matter how small or insignificant, on the sinn fein flyer to the quoted economists voting ‘no’ rather than their opinions on the treaty itself.

Take your time….unless of course there is nothing for you to post.

Trueleft. I spelt it out in black and white what was wrong with what they did. And I can guarantee you’d be screaming from the rooftops if the government did it. So I can either assume you’re an idiot or being deliberately obtuse as it suits you. Little bit of column A, little bit of column B perhaps.

Joseph. I do, you’re right. Someone asked me the same question the other day. It’s because I give a shít about this country and I want to see people get a balanced view of what we’re voting on. It’s certainly not for all the names I get called you can be sure.

Anyway lads I’m off to the pub to have a life.

Folks, please try to refrain from making attacks against another user (as opposed to attacking their arguments).

Play the ball, not the player, etc.

Gary, I suppose you haven’t heard the electoral commission radio ads which are blatantly pro Yes, the yes camp are using every dirty trick in the book (including mobilising their minions online)
If they have to resort to propaganda to sell something then that something is rotten.

Enjoy the pints Gary,

I do love ya you silly aul sausage!
Ur right tho,
I’m sure we can disagree without being disagreeable!

Catch up with ya on a different thread tomorrow

Gary, as usual the figures you quote do not include the cost of NAMA.
A manageable sovereign debt has been made unmanageable by socialising bank debt.
And don’t say “you haven’t got a time machine to clean up spilt milk”
We are a sovereign nation despite what FF did or FG say. We can repudiate this debt if we wish and start again with IMF backing like Iceland

In fairness Gary, they quoted economists who were very selective with the truth – they said:

1) on economic grounds the fiscal compact is a bad idea
BUT
2) on balance it’s a good idea.

So they said it’s a bad idea based on the economic facts which they are qualified to comment on.

However, there’s some other reason (the magical confidence fairy?) which makes it a good idea. What is that other reason please?

Check the Maastrict treaty David.

The principal is good but once we are out of trouble first. Fix a problem then put measures in place to ensure it doesn’t happen again.

2015 is a bit away.

What is they say
A week is a long time in politics.
As has been demonstrated this week alone.

I’m on welfare and I will take my chances, I’ll take the hit for the sake of this country !! Question how big of a hit has can’t think for himself ( kenny ) taken the ginger sell out… No back bone ….

We’ll get it from Europe david. The ECB and Eurozone are not going to risk bringing the house of cards down by Ireland suffering a catastrophic default, rather than extend a smaller further loan to the people who are obediently making their targets and paying back the program loan. It is absolutely inconceivable. They threw a chunk of money at greece they know they’ll never get back andd gave them a huge debt writeoff rather than upset the applecart. Really think they’ll shaft the star pupil whose being a good boy?

We are being blackmailed but the threat is empty. Don’t fall for it.

That argument is wearing thin and its all the yes side have! Do you genuinely think they won’t give us funding with better conditions when the other alternative is being bankrupt and defaulting on the multiple billions?? They will rewrite the rules as they have done already!
Life is not going to get better here unless you fight for it!

Exactly Shayno. A manufactured threat from a government of liars. Its their best hope of getting people to vote ‘yes’ to cripping austerity.

I will take my chances and vote NO . It is all scare mongering by the Yes side don’t you know. We need jobs and an increase in growth . not more taxes and we as hell do not need any more bail outs . I trust what I know to be true , I trust what I learned myself .

Hang on a minute Dave, do you mean to tell me that we’ll need a second bailout?!!!

I thought the austerity was working!