Totally agree Derek. As long as the Gov keeps shiteing on the majority of people in this country, and crappin as hard as they are,,, then they’re fools to think that the people won’t attempt to push back.

And there was me thinkin that the gov was there to look after *and* protect the majority of people.

And what about VAT? A tax on the food you eat to survive. How disgusting is that. And income tax? Legalised theft of your hard earned money.

Funnily enough I don’t have to pay this home tax you speak of as it is only for property owners.

Those protesters ought to be arrested and dealt with by the courts. They cannot be allowed to interfere with public
business.Enough !

Mule there’s no vat on food.

People who never cost the State a cent to house them. And are being punished financially for it.

And you obviously don’t own a house?

Only for some foods Norman as I’m sure you are well aware.
http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vat/rates/decision-detail-01229.jsp

Mule the basic foodstuffs are excempt that is my point.

So no one is allow protest now. Will we just do away with democracy altogether and be done with it

these people are heroes, show some respect! Half the country should be out with them!!

Sean, we the sovereign people signed up to nothing last week. This odious debt has been forced on us. We didn’t choose it.

What about the right to free speach?

You can roughly work it out. http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/exchequerstatements/2012/exchfinaldec.pdf
See that 14 billion deficit last year? All going well that will go down to zero in about ten years. When that happens then we need it to go to -3 or -7 billion per annum as by that time we will have about 200-300 billion of debt amassed. All going well we can pay that off in 40 years or so. So you are looking at most of our lifetimes. And remember, this is what you all wanted. Team Bertie all the way. Lets get rich from debt!

Heard it, FG consigning future generations to “debt”.

A low-tax low-spend economy eliminates the so called need to “broaden the tax base”.

It Will Last As Long As We Let It Go On. We Are As a People The Most Cowardly SPINLESS People On The Face Of The Earth. The Government Will Continue To Keep Bleeding Us Dry As Long As We Sit On Our Fat Arses And Do Nothing But Moan Moan Moan. We Deserve Everything We Get Thrown At Us Because We Are Too Lazy To Get Out And Show The Government And The Troica That We Have Had Enough And Are Not Prepared To Put Up With The Punitive Savage Cuts Any Longer.

Amazing. It was of course ‘lefties’ among others who won us our democracy. Now we have lefties who disrupt the democratic process because they don’t like policies democratically decided.

But Dave because you disagree with our glorious leaders, their supporters dismiss you out of hand as being a leftie,or use some other ignorant term.

@Paddy Murray
they look like hardworking decent irish people to me
but i suppose your looking at them through pro government tinted glasses
get your eyes tested man

Paddy just so there is no confusion,democracy does not exist under a “whip system”.TDs are not allowed vote against the party or they’re expelled.How many times have we heard calls for a free vote.
Last week was a prize example of lack of democracy,a bill converting 28billion of private debt into nearly 60billion of sovereign debt(when fully redeemed) rushed through the Dail with little or no debate.

Peaceful protest is a right. Disrupting a Democratic process is not.

Frank Cluskey. Can you point out a single pro government remark of mine? Typical left. Getting it wrong. Chucking out inaccuracies. Plain wrong

Of course they don’t have to obey ‘the whip.’ But they tend to chicken out, with a few exceptions, for fear of losing the logistical support of ‘the party.’ There is no law against defying ‘the whip.’

yes paddy your correct apologies
fair play

They get kicked out of the parliamentery party,this causes one serious problem for them at election time no party machine behind them.So seriously reduced chance of reelection

Not one new policy in this country has been democratically decided! They have all been dictated to us!!

Lefties are a growing force…. By the day and by each unwanted policy. Maybe being a lefty is the new righty.

Dictatorial process I’m afraid

You had no cause to apologise.

Dictated to us Rob? By whom? By our democratically elected public representatives. Rob, that’s how democracy works. If you don:t like it, well change it all at the next election, otherwise it’s fascism and thuggery. And read a book about “dictating”. We may have an unpopular government but they are elected.

I believe you should read more about what democracy and republic actually mean before you start calling people part of a rights movement fascists… and look at who is in power – Fine Gael, a stronger history than any other with fascism in Ireland.

James — your view of democracy is utterly flawed if you believe that an unelected minority has the right to disrupt elected representatives from going about their business every time they disagree with decisions reached democratically. Fine Gael and fascism? Oh how desperate you are to find something to say! If there was a link half a century ago they had the sense to break it. Paul Murphy (unelected) seems to have taken up the fascist baton with enthusiasm as he desperately campaigns for legitimacy.

Paddy,

Paul Murphy is elected. When the electorate voted in Joe Higgins as an MEP they also voted for his substitute list which included Paul Murphy. As you probably know, Murphy replaced Higgins as MEP when Higgins was elected to the Dail in 2011.

I have spoken to many, many people who voted in the last European election. Not one, not a single one had any idea that Paul Murphy existed when they voted. They had no idea that this publicity junkie was on any kind of ticket. He was a disgrace on Morning Ireland today. He refused point blank to answer questions put to him and instead kept chanting his cliched mantra. He would have done any FFer or FGer proud with his evasion. He went on about one of his fellow trespassers having his head ‘bounded off a wall’ by a garda but wouldn’t even admit that his unruly mob of lawbreakers had assaulted a council official on their way in to disrupt the democratic process. He is anti democratic and is, sadly, doing more and more damage to socialism every day. He is discrediting socialism . He is damaging the cause. If I had anything to do with the left, I’d off load this ego maniac now.

Paddy,
So you accept now that Paul Murphy was elected?

I certainly do not! How can you elect someone who’s name isn’t on the ballot paper? Man’s out of control in his bid for votes. He issues more press releases than the GIS, FF, FG, Labour – and even the Shinners put together. Desperation. And he is utterly undemocratic and totally refused to answer questions put to him on the radio this morning. And don’t forget, he’ s the one who went in there to be interviewed. Evasive. Cowardly. An enemy of socialism. I’d say right wingers love him.

Paddy,
You are heavily criticising people on this thread for not respecting the democratic process as you see it, and yet you are guilty of the same disrespect if you don’t accept that Paul Murphy was legitimately elected under the current MEP voting rules. There are no by-elections to the European Parliament. If an MEP resigns from office or dies during his or her mandate, the vacancy is filled from a replacement list, which is presented by parties or independent candidates to the returning officer in their constituency prior to each European election. Those are the rules and they apply to all parties and not just the Socialist Party and Paul Murphy.
The replacement lists are readily available to the public. I’ve pasted the Labour replacement list for the Ireland South constituency 2009 election below. As you can see, Phil Prendergast has since replaced Alan Kelly as the Labour MEP.

Labour Replacement Candidates: South Constituency
1. SPRING, ARTHUR J.
2. PRENDERGAST, PHIL (replaced KELLY, ALAN in 2011)
3. LEDDIN, JOE
4. O’DOWD, VIRGINIA
5. KHAN, MARK

Do you accept that Phil Prendergast was legitimately elected?

No. I don’t. The system is a farce. Maybe that’s not Paul Murphy’s fault. But it doesnt’ alter the fact that he was NOT elected and still has the gall to bleat on about ‘democracy.’ This is the same guy who, after flying to Greece at someone or other’s expense to campaign for the left in their election, threatened in a statement after their disappointing result, to help make governing the country impossible for the parties freely chosen by the majority of the elctorate.

Paddy,

It seems you won’t admit when you are wrong. You are correct though when you say the system is a farce.
The democratic system where FG campaign vigorously on an anti Property tax platform and Labour on a manifesto of burning the bondholders and then both reverse their positions 180 degrees once elected is a bad joke. They do not have the mandate to implement these policies. They were elected on a platform of lies. They must be held to account and these protestors are attempting to do just that. It’s democracy in real time.

Democracy is predicated on elections. But you seem to have no time for them Dave. Your democracy is bullying, shouting cliched slogans, disruption and defying the rights of elected representatives and those who elect them. Arrogance beyond belief not to mention stupidity. If we don’t like our politicians, we chuck them out at elections. But Murphy’s Mob – he never did win an election – aren’t satisfied with that. They pick and choose what laws, democratically passed laws, they wish to obey and start talking nonsense about their ‘right’ to break the ones they don’t like. It’s anarchy bordering on fascism. Anyway, how is his old buddy Iosu Uribetxeberria getting along? He’s the Basque prisoner for whom Paul campaigned. Paul wanted him released, and all Basque ‘activists’ released, because Iosu is terminally ill. Nice guy Iosu. He kidnapped José Antonio Ortega Lara and held him for more than a year leaving him, in the end, to starve to death – but he was rescued just in time and described as looking like something out of Belsen having been locked in a tiny cell and starved by Paul’s buddy. His crime? He supported a party opposed to the Basque separatists. Democracy. Isn’t it?

If you complain about the quality of your water, it may strengthen the introduction of water charges. Usually, reaction to such statements about “chlorine” in the water brings in more charges. I am happy with the water supply provided no water charges are introduced.

Are you prepared to pay ~€500 a year on water? Be careful what you wish for….

Chlorine is in ballygowan and most other bottled waters,a recent 22 year study by harvard university has concluded that fluoride which is in most of our water supply is one of the most dangerous chemicals around and is attributed to most of the diseases and conditions we have unusually high rates of! fix the pipes ,no!stick more chemicals down there!

A substantial amount of piping has already been upgraded and water treatment is an automated process to eliminate costs. If more piping needs upgrading, a one-off charge should be considered instead of a permanent water tax to keep a big government. People would have no quibble with this option (in my opinion).

Vote for Seamus McDonagh( The Workers’ Party ) in Meath-East, firmly against household/water charges. Your only man.

The same Workers’ Party that gave us Gilmore and Rabbitte?

No thanks.

Spending cuts would compensate the need for a property tax / water charges.

Good in theory but the current liars in gov said they were against the PT and they ramming down our throats.

Rubbish, Gilmore and Rabbitte are their own creations, treachery and double dealing being their trademark. If you really want an alternative to FG/LP/FF bankrupt politics then Seamus McDonagh of The Workers’ Party is the one to vote for.

@David, strawman argument, your party gave us a fascist who fought for Franco in Spain, remember remember and all that….

Did you get clearance from hq for that comment Dave?
We know anyway yous will transfer votes to each other on elimination i truly hope independents in meath east use their transfers wisely to ruin your chances :-D

@Reginald “Spending cuts would compensate the need for a property tax / water charges.”

What would you cut? Not necassarily saying you are wrong now, I’m just curious as to what you think can be done away with that would compensate enough to do away with the two taxes.

So the next government will reduce taxes and increase spending all on massively borrowed money. How will that work out when the markets/IMF tell us to f**k off and live within our means.

So Con, FF doubled public spending in ten years with the taxes on money borrowed from abroad. Can you remind us all briefly where that got us again.

How can we live within our means when the Taoiseach earns €200,000, ministers €170,000, special advisers €130,000 and TD’s over €90,000. We also need to scrap ALL expenses. Bankers earning half a million and more … no wonder we’re broke.

You could pay them all a million a year and it would make no perceivable difference. We need good, sensible governance.

@Father Reg. Fianna Fail should not be let anywhere near the corridors of power for another 50 years. We should live within our means and balance our budgets every year. We can be a wealthy country in a few years if someone in power has the common sense to use our oil and gas wealth on behalf of the Irish people.

Mule any idea when we’ll get it?

I don’t think we will for a long, long time. Our governments are a reflection of the Irish people. Fianna Fail wouldn’t have lost a huge amount of votes if they reigned spending in and did anything to harm property prices which the many people used as their wealth generators. I’ll hopefully be out of here in the next 6 months. It has genuinely taken its toll on me since I started tracking this debacle from 2006.

Mule in your distaste for FF you have forgotten FG were no better during the boom years.They too were shrill in decrying budgets that didn’t give away enough.
We are governed by fools whose only goal is to enrich themselves and their close supporters.

@norman- I’m interested. What would have happened Fine Gael if they had stood opposite FF during the Celtic Tiger and said : Stop lowering taxes. Stop increasing benefits to the old, the sick and the unemployed. I’m seriously asking- based on voting patterns since independence what do you think would have happened FG?

Vincent i was going to respond to you,but i don’t see the need to allow you twist my reply into a lie.

Maybe actually TRY living within our means?

@norman- it’s ok not to have an answer. I didn’t expect you to have.

Eamon, im well up for living within our means, but so long as we have very little, or no, control over the currency we use…….we will always be subject to those who are in control of it.

I had a lengthy answer,but as i said why give you opportunity to twist it into a lie?Nah you’re not worth it.

@norman- “I know the answer but I’m not telling you”……think the last time I heard that line was in a playground. Game of conkers, later? Relax. I expected no more.

Con, SF have no intention of repealing these taxes. Hence the somewhat muted opposition. What they want is to be able to blame someone else for them…

SF will likely abolish it and replace with a wealth tax. Taxes on the top 10% are currently at a 25 year low (since the 1980’s). Tax breaks should be rolled back.

Regonald, that didnt work out to well for the French. Mind you, don’t think many wealthy would stick around with a SF gov. Then we could all be equally poor. But we’d be happy, wouldn’t we?

All they had to say was, who the hell is keeping an eye on our reckless banks?? public spending is a fraction of the problem, which is mainly due to letting the banks be a law unto themselves!! But they were all asleep.

Vincent you need to read what i wrote,not what you thought i wrote.l just said i wouldn’t answer you,big difference.

@norman- it’s why you wrote that, not what you wrote. You’ve no answer. So you’re bulls*tting your way out of it. That’s fine. That’s your prerogative. I’m just pointing it out. Though its pretty apparent. It’s ok, though.

Not BSing just preferring not to respond to a proven liar.

Dont see much of that ,action but instead come on the journal and give loads for what a few green thumbs

Cut government spending and compensate by abolishing property tax and water charges. Close tax loopholes, close tax breaks on the top 10% such as the rebate on company cars, tax relief on businesses, group company tax breaks, and the ‘double Irish arrangement’.

O Reilly she also came out from behind the keyboard,would you be willing to do the same and call her a “fruit and nut case”then?

Norm, I’ve acknowledged her actions. Eileen got up off her ass unlike many here. Dont agree with the action though. Paddy got it right. Plenty to say, but no solutions…

O Reilly from what i have had to listen to at various times unless solutions come from within they are always dismissed as rubbish.

How about fighting it by living within our means? And paying people wages that the country can afford?

And cause a brain drain… thats what the country needs.

How about getting the multinational companies to pay tax like the rest of us?

And watch them relocate. Yes thats a genius idea.

I’m watching are young relocate now that’s genius.

Phil corporation tax is 12.5% it would be nice if they paid that amount at least.

Here here, taking billions of euro profit

Erm, irish employees at my multinational pay nearly half a billion in employee tax, on top of the same again in corporation tax. Every single global meeting, we fight tooth and nail to keep these jobs based on the the quality of ireland based employees. Corporation tax rates are low down the list, but on the list, nonetheless so don’t think that increasing this will increase the tax income, because it will 100% reduce it.

The problem we have, again and again… is there are too many people on inflated salaries based on this private tax base. Not the graduate nurses, guards and teachers, but everyone else on the gravy train. Introduce true austerity (reduce high public salaries, and increase taxes on those of us in the private sector who can pay) and then we can balance our books and be competitive, but until then we are digging and digging our way to mass emigration and unemployment.

The only section of the economy not touched so far is the multinational sector.

What about the Travelling community, that sector hasn’t been touched.

Used to work in a multinational. Sat around scratching, waiting for the pager to go off watching movies. Paid €65k per year.

Everyone I know is still on that money, none have taken any kind of paycuts etc. Meanwhile the multinational company walks away with billions each year.

Sick of listening to the corp tax, ‘we’ll leave if you tax us’ crap. Support start up and small Irish companies. Tax the HPs and Intels 17.5, 20%.

Oh sure lads it would probably be against their Human Rights To Ask the Traveller Community To Pay Tax. We Would Probably Be Accused Of Racism. They Don’t Keep Records Or Give Receipts On Any Of Their Dealings They Hide Their Faces If Ever On A Program On TV. They Could Not Possibly Pay
Tax On Any Of Their Shady Dealings That The Whole Country Knows They Are Up To. Sure Wouldn’t it Effect Their Dole And All The Other Scams They Are Up To. The Government Have No Problem Going After The Settled Community To Bleed Them Dry Of Their Honest Hard Earned Wages Etc But Its a Different Story For The Traveller Community They Can Get Away With All Sorts Of Scams and No Government Dept Bothers To Investigate Where They Get All Their Money.

They employ people, create knock on business and jobs, so they pay enough tax. It would be in our best interest to have no corp tax rate at all, attractin more multinationals, and encourage people to set up businesses.

All these taxes are being brought in so our lazy gov don’t have to work on a budget. 50% of our taxes are wasted by gov and civil service.

Just reading the comments here,
Divide and conquer is truly working

Pablo
Easy to see why you don’t work in the sector anymore!

That’s why Fine Gael/Labor will loose the next election, going by recent polls.

At least some are fighting it, we can’t be always pushovers. Keep the fight going!! It’s the most unfair tax introduced to this nation along with VRT.

So no has a right Paddy to protest against what they percive to be an injustice?Just dismiss by labelling them a “leftie”.

They have no right to disrupt the business of democratically elected councillors. If they want to run the council they should stand for election. Oh. They did. And hardly any were elected. As for this nonsense about habit ‘the right’ to protest that does not include defying democracy, bullying TDs in their clinics and invading council buildings.

Paddy that is your opinion,which alot would agree with and as many would disagree.

Even judging by opinion polls, leaving elections aside, the left is making little progress (and this might surprise you) unfortunately. Why? Because of destructive actions like tonight. Because they think publicity is more important than substance. Because they have come up with no workable solutions. And, yes, because they milk the system for what they can get from it. Gerry Adams flying first class for private medical treatment in the States. Boyd Barrett using public money to get his car fixed.
Doherty claiming ?5000 a month expenses.
And we don’t even need to include Labour in the left.
The left us eating itself and is its win worst enemy.

The left *is* eating itself and is *it ‘s own* worst enemy

“They milk the system”? I think you’d want to have a wee look and see who are consistently the biggest expense claimants again.
As for the left eating itself,time will tell.

I am a middle class person and object to property tax and water charges because we don’t need them. The government needs to cut spending instead of property tax/water charges.

Check out the expenses claims on the Oireachtais website. The left are as bad as FF and FG. It’s a gravy train for all of them. At least we knew what to expect from FG FF and, sadly, Labour. I for one had hoped for better from ‘the left.’

Paddy now i will agree with you, to use a cliche “they’re all the same”.

If there was a vote in the morning any sane person would abolish 90% of councillors’ positions.

They are like drivers who slow down to stare at accidents- they only waste time and money playing at politics and staring into potholes

Okay Paddy, people are outraged and angered by the fact they will be subjected to local taxes. Property tax is in effect a tax on employment – just a different name. Water charges infuriate me because I see it as an attack on the interests of Irish voters (left and right). Such taxes should be abolished like in 1977. All the taxes won’t do anything if we don’t cut spending. Unfortunately, the politicians don’t want to do this.

Paddy democracy was defied last Wednesday when those traitors sold this country out.

If only this protest did get proper publicity then maybe it would have more chance of success.

@ Paddy. Effective protest has to create some form of disturbance, everyone else in the world thinks we’re fine because there are no newsworthy protests taking place. All we seem to have are polite over organised Trade Union marches that might as well not have happened. A protest is a waste of time unless it gets up official noses, If you dont get up peoples noses now and again you just become an invisible doormat.

Wasters because these protestors were exercising their democratic rights and had the gall to fight and stand up for what they believe is a very unfair and unjust tax. Why don”t YOU just go away. At least Paul Murphy and others have the courage of their convictions. Which is more than what I can say about the present bunch of cowards we have running the country. It doesn’t matter which political party they belong to they should be applauded for standing up against the injustices that this government are perpetrating on the good citizens of Ireland. What are you doing about it Paddy? Have you checked out our Consitiution yet…oh wait..you said last night on the Examiner
that you knew ALL of the Constitiution then if that is the case you know that what this government are doing is totally against it and not in the interest of the people of Ireland

I see your still in love with eileen,vincent will you be sending her roses on the 14th?

Sean is “stalking” a sign of love?

I’m going to pay her household charge instead. Simultaneously do something nice for her & remove her Raison d’être . That’s how I roll…..

How much to stop hearing from you Richard , I mean Vincent?

More than you can afford, Brian.

Your not worth a fiver Vincent.

You’re, Ryan. You’re not worth a fiver. Simple stuff.

Vincent “Iooked at your profile. You’re a stalker” Dolan?