She didn’t advocate that if you properly read the article.

I don’t think he was suggesting that she was. I think he was pointing out the madness of government policy of increasing direct taxes as well as indirect taxes and the also funnelling the raised revenues out in the form of future debt repayments not to mention interest payments. How someone can talk of growth in that environment is simply madness

Cheers Ian I was commenting on current government policy. Oh and me heads still wrecked.

The wealthy are feeling defensive about their taxes.

Can I say this ….. ?

One thing we should stop is talking about “taxing till we bleed” and that low taxes are the only way. All the countries that are being bailed out, on verge of collapse are low taxes ones, all being bailed out by states with progressive taxes, incredible public services from cradle to grave and Govts that are not obsessed with tax breaks and loop holes for the wealthiest.

The state here is run as a cash cow for a very small no of people, and they have the cheek to call that free markets and capitalism. It is cronyism and favouritism and it needs to be done away with.

Do Taxes Narrow the Wealth Gap? Historically, yes. Yes. Yes. When tax rates have been higher on the top to counter-balance varied generous deductions and accounting methods, not only has the gap decreased, the middle class has become most economically stable in the history of the world. And the rich continue to do very well. End the FG “tax cuts” today and the economy will turn around immediately.

Now there is a suprise Trueleft..You agree with her!!!

@rob, up to a point you are correct, the question is does a top tax rate of 53% indicate the we have already surpassed the high point, or will further increases in both direct and indirect taxation continue to raise revenue indefinitley?
http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielmitchell/2012/04/15/the-laffer-curve-shows-that-tax-increases-are-a-very-bad-idea-even-if-they-generate-more-tax-revenue/

Do you not get tired of posting the same comments over and over again? SF really are marketing themselves as a party of sarcasm. Another idiotic comment from the lefties!

There’s no choice but to raise taxes further. The government failed to get any write-down in the debt.

As Kenny famously stated in 2011: “We have not looked for a write-down”….

Tax codes are skewed in the Rich’s favor. In order to fix the country’s deficit problem, we must increase taxes on the rich. I’m saying that its still our country that makes these people rich. They need to pay their fair share of taxes. High tax rates for the top percent encourages people to reinvest into their companies instead of just pocketing the money.

@ Joe. Wish I was rich and wealthy enough to be ‘taxed and punished’ under sinn feins proposals. I’d still me incredibly better off than I am right now, as would 9 out of 10 of us.

Yes Randy!

A third rate of ta above 100,000 isn’t going to make anybody bleed. Household taxes and water charges, however, will.

I don’t think she was advocating that either Damocles. Targetted tax rises for those that can afford it most, is the way to increase a capital spending budget. Unfortunately, FF/FFg/Labour have been doing the opposite. Taxing the most vulnerable, disproportionately and reducing spending at a time when we need the opposite.

Actually Cal from the report she was talking in entirely nebulous terms as she doesn’t want to detract from their “plan” to be unveiled later in the year.

So I can guess.

And I’m guessing she’ll say they’re going after the rich and will actually go after the slightly well off.

@Cal Mooney,

Which is it? Tax the rich to pay for stimulus? Or tax the rich to reduce the deficit? Mary Lou seems to believe there’s enough cash in the money tree for both.

Growth based on government stimulus and capital expenditure is not sustainable. It’ll put money in people’s pockets for a while, but the bottom will fall out of the economy again soon after.

People need to realise that government spending and income from 2002-2007 was atypical. The income has reverted to mean, and now the expenditure does to.

Exports are the only way we will actually *bring extra cash and long term jobs into the economy*. This will create *natural* demand internally and improve GNP along with GDP. Government stimulus just temporarily pumps up GNP on borrowed money.

IDamocles: it is clear that Ireland needs changes to narrow the wealth gap. Even though one is smart, one do not deserve a wage 300 times higher than the average level. Therefore, it is fair to tax on the richest people. However, the way to tax it and the future use of tax is still under debate. Personally, I prefer an effective step to settle the wealth distribution problem. Wealth taxes are progressive.

Rob you queered your pitch yesterday when you admitted to tax evasion.

You have nothing to bring to any debate on taxation.

We ARE being taxed till we’re bleeding!
You CANNOT grow the domestic economy whilst taking money out of it. If people dont have money they CANNOT buy goods.

Ireland has a very progressive tax system. The more you earm the far more you pay…Someone on 100k is pay well over 30k in tax. Someone on 30k pays less than 5k….
Very small cohort earning over a 100k for the record so increased tax will kill ambition and yield f**k all…

Yvonne,

Deficit spending is putting money INTO the economy. Reducing the deficit is not taking money out of the economy, it is stimulating it less.

We are currently experiencing massive government stimulus in the form of:
- not taxing those earning under a certain amount
- not taxing the wealthy effectively (too many loopholes, tax breaks)
- not taxing capital wealth effectively (we take .6% per annum from a PAYE worker’s pension but we don’t tax property)
- we are still giving tax breaks on property (section 23, mortgage interest relief)
- we are paying more public sector workers than we can afford
- we are paying public sector workers more that we can afford
- we are paying social welfare recipients more than we can afford

That’s ALL stimulus. And it needs to be reigned in.

I’m not advocating on cut over the other, or one tax over another. I’m just saying that the deficit is there because we never had the money in the first place to pay for everything we’re paying for now.

Damocles and Rónán,

I forgot, FG cut taxes on the wealthy then complain about the debt going through the roof. They never worry about lost revenue. That is what Blueshirts have become. Geniuses every one.

@Tim,

Why don’t you address the points, instead of reverting to soundbites and strawman arguments?

I have not indicated support of FG policy in any statement. In fact, I’m dead against what they’re doing. Don’t try and polarize what is not a polarized argument.

I can be against both the government and the opposition. Thankfully this isn’t America, and I’m not forced to vote for one side or the other.

What Rónán O’Suilleabháin advocates is a Fine Gael government that gives tax breaks – a form of corruption. We need to invest in much needed public transport like modern buses, trams and proper trains. Under FG and LAB, the country is cutting basic services. Taxing the super-rich would help close the deficit.

- Since the 2010 budget the top 10% paid just €880,000 in taxes to the state.
- wealthy Irish tax exiles earn more than €1 million a year and also have assets of over €5 million in Ireland

http://www.thejournal.ie/guess-how-many-irish-tax-exiles-have-paid-the-new-rich-tax-273724-Nov2011/

Nothing generates as many comments as an article on taxes. Here are mine: We don’t have a revenue problem; we have a wealth problem. Start introducing an assets tax on the super rich.

Regonald,

Where did I advocate that? Nowhere. Why don’t you address my points, instead of taking the Strawman position.

I don’t believe in tax cuts as stimulus, as it happens. And I think we’re undertaxed. But that includes everyone. I don’t believe in having people “outside the tax net” and celebrating it.

I love the way people come on here and state something as fact without backing it up; Regonald Timpson just stated that: “- Since the 2010 budget the top 10% paid just €880,000 in taxes to the state.”

Now anyone with any sense would know that this is a complete load of horse manure.

Reg,

Are you serious? You can’t be bothered to read the source in the link I provided?

Regonald,

The tax exiles mentioned in the link do not represent the entire top 10%.

The revenue since that article in 2011 will have increased since then.

Damocles,

Those are the most recent figures available from Revenue. The next tax return deadline isn’t until late in the year.

Regonald – the link you provided referred to tax exiles. According to the linked article the €880,000 is the amount received from five exiles.

You said: “Since the 2010 budget the top 10% paid just €880,000 in taxes to the state.”

This is simply not true.

Tell the unions to F themselves for starters.

Are the 10 percenters paying more tax Barry? Did you notice that the top 10% now earn close to 30% of the TOTAL INCOME in this country. While real income for the middle class shrinked?

Thats been one of the problems……Ireland nor any country for that matter is not a business. I’m fed up to the back teeth with greedy self serving Fine Geal types using this analogy. Ireland is a Nation State. Its people are a SOCIETY. We are NOT economic units!

Yvonne Byrne, I’d rather you don’t label me as i certainly don’t support FG….I am however a realist

Ok, so say we’;re not a business, just where do we get the money from, we can’t magically just create jobs and growth by forcing people to buy stuff they may not want or afford. We can’t just force company’s to invest in Ireland.

We are a society but then you have to ask yourself then why deal with some of our citizens different to others?

If for example I worked bloody hard all my life and did well in school, college and work and was pulling in 100k a year (I only wish I was) why should I be hit for this but somebody who decided to do next to nothing with their life ?

Its all fine and well saying tax the rich but you keep trying to do that and they’;ll just leave

Yvonne, how I wish you were right. But that’s not the way it works, no matter how many time you click your heels together, you have to make the sums add up. End of.
Barry – spot on.

“Answers on a postcard please”.

It’d have to be a pretty big postcard.

Higher taxes for those that can afford it, PPPs, targeting our diplomatic efforts in Europe towards investment and growth as the best way of getting us back to growth and out of bail out land

Who exactly are those people Joseph?? People on here seem to think that half the poulation earns 100k or more…

As you can see Declan it is only one of 3 possible suggestions I made I don’t think there are several mystical billions out there to had but with there being 10% of the country whose wealth and income have increased while the rest of us are suffering there is revenue to ve generated and furthermore there is a compelling moral justification for them to give more.

How about a growth plan by cutting Government / Cutting waste & cutting public sector pay.. and giving the saving to Taxpayers via Tax cuts A really stimuli to the economy. rather than some central planned great plan..

And who are these “mythic” ten-percenters you keep mentioning? When you speak of income, do you been gross income or net income. Until you properly define and set clear, verifiable boundaries for the definition if the shadowy “super-rich”, they will remain in the realm of rhetoric, as real as the bogeyman and the Easter bunny.

Karswell,

The top 10% are the filthy rich who cheat the tax system in Ireland. Their assets in Ireland which aren’t taxed while their income is declared in another country because of favorable tax codes. The ‘double Irish scheme’ reduces tax liabilities:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement

“Ireland does not levy withholding tax on certain receipts from European Union member states. Revenues from income of sales of the products shipped by the second Irish company are first booked by a shell company in the Netherlands, taking advantage of generous tax laws there”

Also, we have one of the lowest corporation taxes in the world. Wealthy corporations who can afford to pay their fair share.

Again, a nebulous and unworkable definition that relies on emotive language rather than objective fact an evidence. Would you like to try again?

We’ve had a deficit since 2001? Really? The deficit was created by increases in government spending that were based on boom-time increases in taxes based on VAT, Stamp Duty on construction and PAYE on unsustainable building jobs along with multiplier effects on consumer spending. Foreign money was pumped into the country and the velocity of money in Ireland increased.

The FF lead governments went on a vote buying spree by eroding the income tax base, increasing public sector numbers and wages, and fanned the flames of the economy (read: housing bubble) by offering further incentives to property buying, extension of section 23 etc.

Meanwhile we ignored our export-led economic success of the 90s and didn’t further invest in these areas. To complicate matters further, our rapidly increasing cost base meant that we lost a lot of manufacturing. We didn’t care though, because we simply replaced everything with construction jobs.

The deficit is where it is because it is structurally unbalanced, we were over-reliant on construction jobs, and we have failed to rein in the increased public expenditure from 2002-2007.

There wasn’t a giveaway to the wealthy that lead to a 20billion deficit. The bubble popped. We are back to 2002 revenue, but we’re still at bubble expenditure. The economy reset button has been pressed, and it’s time to go back to doing what we did well in the 90s. Sadly, we now can’t afford to stimulate that area like we did previously with free college etc. This is why we’re in for a lot of pain over the next few years, no matter what we get done about the bank debt.

The math is easy: the budget over the next decade cannot be made to square without raising a lot more money. If reducing the deficit were an important goal, surely it is more humane to do so through moderate tax increases on incomes of those who have large incomes than to reduce the tax take on the top 10%, already thoroughly riddled, for those in poverty or who would fall into poverty with job loss or high medical costs. Maybe a progressive total assets tax for corporations and individuals would be even better. Currently, it is far more important that we stimulate the economy through expansionary fiscal policy so as to increase employment, production, and incomes, particularly at lower income levels; this will happen with spending increases by the government for direct hire and production or transfers to counties and individuals, so that they can spend more. Worrying about deficit reduction in our current situation is a total distraction from the real problem.

No one is talking about confiscatory, incentive-eliminating tax rates. After the tax increases on high incomes and tax credit increases for low-income filers, we continued what became the longest economic expansion ever documented in this country, and we balanced the budget, and poverty rates decreased, and median real incomes rose, and the wealthy and the poor got wealthier.

I urge Leinster House to do the right thing: let the tax cuts for the richest 10% expire at the end of the year. I also believe they should extend the middle class tax cuts for The 90% of households that earn less than €70,000. Our nation borrowed over €5 billion since 2002 to allocate tax cuts for the rich – and we can’t afford another €5 billion, including interest payments, to extend them for another 10 years. After a half century of reducing taxes for the richest 10%, it is time to rebalance the tax code and ensure the wealthy pay their fair share.

Mark the Maths are indeed easy.

1. We used to take in ~30billion and spend ~30billion.
2. Then we had a bubble and took in ~60billion and spent ~60billion
3. The bubble was fueled with foreign money >>>> into our economy
4. The foreign money is gone. It’s not coming back.
5. The bubble has popped
6. Now we take in ~40billion and spend ~60billion

The ~40 billion we take in is sustainable. It is ultimately driven by exports, tourism and anything else which brings money into the country, along with production from our own natural resources – agriculture, burning turf to create electricity etc. The banks create further wealth by lending money.

You cannot magically grow that ~40 billion into ~60 billion by raising taxes. It was never really 60billion. It was fluff money trickling back in taxes from a fluff economy based on building houses.

We might, through increased exports, grow jobs to increase the income a bit. Furthermore, we can start to repair the tax base. This however, means that everyone needs to contribute like they used to, as well as closing tax loopholes for the wealthy. But with a unemployment unlikely to go below 10% in this decade, and growth likely to be anemic due to the global economy, we can only hope to grow income by a small margin.

I believe we need to grow income to 45 billion, slash expenditure to 50 billion. That means pain, pain, pain. For everyone.

This hangover is only really kicking in now. We need alka seltzer, a fry up, and old DVDs. The left wants us to go down the pub, open a tab, and hope that somehow it’ll all work out.

Ronan, you are a 100% realist. I see a lot of red thumbs for you comments, but not a single cogent argument to undermine them.
A lot of wishful thinking I fear…

Well done Rónán O’Suilleabháin, some very good posts. It’s amazing the number of Irish people who still don’t get it.

Ronan: I love watching that right wing paradise known as Rónán O’Suilleabháin go down the drain. If anyone wants to know what rule by the Fine Gael Party means, just look at Leinster House, where the Fine Gael Party has controlled the state legislature since the late 2011. BTW, stupid rightists don’t seem to understand that the rich can pay more; all that can be raised from the ordinary people will evaporate when they become unemployed. LOL.

Maybe if they ended tax breaks to wealthy corporations we wouldn’t be in this mess:

08/02/2012

”Top executives of some foreign-owned multinationals could earn up to €650,000 tax free”

”Finance Minister Michael Noonan has been fiercely criticised for a 30% tax break for the highest earners included in the Finance Bill”

”The Special Assignee Relief Programme will cut tax bills by 30% on money earned between €75,000 and €500,000 for employees moved to Ireland to work for at least one year.”

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/reforms-offer-top-bosses-tax-breaks-539091.html

I take it from your posts around here that you’re one of those ‘well off’ people damocles?

I’m not all that interested in what you “take”.

Ok, so its well heeled guy has a problem with higher taxes and what the unwashed masses considers rich.

Shocked I tells ya

Not entirely sure why you extend my comment to other people.

@ TLL – you ask ( i.e. accuse ) Damocles of being one of the “moderately wealthy” ( i.e the decedent bourgeoise ), presumably as a means of invalidating his argument, yet you don’t offer a quid pro quo. You haven’t stated yourself that you a not also one of the “moderately wealthy”. Given that you have the technology to access this site in a daly basis, and have the vocabulary and language skills to assemble rhetorically-heavy comments, you clearly have had the liberal education enabling you to do so, probably to a university-level standard. Everything points to you yourself being a member of the middle-class, the moderately wealthy who you wish to take the Lion’s share of the tax burden. If I am wrong, please let me know.

Trueleft. You are quite nasty at times.. In future I dont think i will comment on anything you say and I would prefer if you did the same…

@ Declan – personal insults are simply an admission that one cannot defend their own position through rational argument and objective fact. All all-too-common occurrence in this new version of the Irish ( not really ) leftist supporter. Reason is optional I’m afraid.

Wow what a ignorant viewpoint, the irish people didnt ask the neocons to give the rich tax breaks.

Rob, not ignorance – fact. Their TD’s are forced to take an AIW, which when you convert to the hours a TD puts in amounts to less than the minimum wage per hour. Yet they claim to defend the low paid… a large portion of their funding raised in the US is spent on travel, accommodation, restaurants. Sinn Fein leadership are regulars at the top hotels and eateries. Yet people follow blindly. and they call us sheep…

@ Rob – the Irish people did not give to OK to people to believe that they are above paying tax while simultaneously demanding that taxes be raised for the “super-rich”, a term that has yet to be clearly defined by any commenter here.

To opt for the low taxes someone really has to believe in the supply-side mantra, something that even Reagan’s own economic advisors no longer find to be a credible economic reality…

Once again you are mislead. I’m tired of the FG’ers making the wealthy wealthier by giving them tax credits when they make so much more than the middle class! We need to STOP this in it’s tracks and start taxing the wealthy more and stop treating corporations like people because they are the largest source of campaign donations. NO MORE tax deductions for the 10% and no more tax loop wholes for large corporations, the only tax credits should be for companies that bring jobs back to Ireland. Greed is destroying Ireland, not Sinn Féin!

Senate votes to end Bush tax cuts for the top 2 percent:
http://video.msnbc.msn.com/hardball/48328155/

@ David. A member of the party who lied themselves into government accusing another party of dishonesty is like Quasimodo accusing somebody of having bad posture i.e. laughable

And here’s Tim, citing an article that mentions only one Irish person, and him suggesting that a “super rich” tax should cap at 50% lower than Tim advocates and lower than the highest rate at a far lower cut off today.

But Tim’s plan doesn’t target the super rich, it targets the moderately well off. And his plan wouldn’t cause any detriment to him at all that he’ll admit to.

Another ‘socialist’ uttering the mantra “Let others pay so I don’t have to. Let others pay so I don’t have to.”

Damocles, all civilized countries have taxes, it pays for roads, military,seniors,school teachers, etc.
Maybe you would be more at home in Somalia. You know where the Airport is…

Yes, all countries have taxes. That point was never in contention.

Cheers David, the numbers don’t lie. We are being robbed blind by this criminal government.

Deficit not “dificit”.

And the difference in spending over taxation is THIS year, not in future years. And that has been caused by a fall in the amount of tax the government takes in, following the collapse of the housing market. The reality is that even if the bondholders were burned, we’d still have a big gaping hole in the public finances. Furthermore we’d find it near impossible to patch that hole (i.e. borrow money on the markets or from the lenders of last resort) so there would be overnight austerity instead.

Incorrect. Irelands ability to borrow on the open markets and rates available are based on ability to repay those loans, not whether or not we makes gamblers accept their losses on bad bets.

Oh, and can the spelling police stuff, its unbecoming.

Living in an economic fairytale isn’t becoming either TTL. And surely if someone wants to be taken seriously they should at least know how to spell or invest in a spell-checker.

Nice non-reply ryan.

There is nothing socialist about taxing the rich? Really? I think most card-carrying socialists would disagree with you. Redistribution of wealth and all that…

Karswell,

The proper role of tax policy is to function as the means in which to fund required government functions, not engineer such elusive and arbitrary tax breaks.

Yes, tax funds the government, but the government should be seen as the executive arm of the state, the state being the entirety of those resident in the nation and the wealth that they collectively possesses. Taxes are set and collected on behalf of the people for the collective good of the people. So, a society with a high reliance on tax is putting the greater good of society on a higher level than the individual good. That’s a position that leans far more to the left than to the right.