I hear ye but its tricky to create productivity measures for public services, for mental health nurses for example, do they get a bonus for seeing more patients? But that could create an incentive to keep patients to create more appointments? Do they get a bonus for improved patient outcomes? What is the outcome? Is that outcome under the control of the treating nurse?

That said there is little incentive to save money, everything is brought back to the best outcome for the patient, any other principle of business would almost certainly lead to patients being excluded from care…

And to further cavanbytheseas remarks, would you prefer that the gardai got more money if they caught more speeders, drunk drivers, tax dodgers etc?? I don’t think so

It is a relatively simple job to appraise a person in any job. You are evaluating their job performance i.e. how well are they doing their job. The 2nd aspect would be capability, all roles take time to perfect. If the top increment is for someone is 100% capable of carrying out every aspect of the role and the bottom is someone newly qualified then it should be easy to assign an increment based on ability. I have been in several jobs with this pay structure. We had to pass exams or demonstrate proficiency to get a rise not just have a pulse. That aspect is fundamentally wrong. It doesn’t give proper appraisals or proper targets for staff to strive towards. This has nothing to do with public sector just bad management.

Its costing the taxpayer money?? We ARE the taxpayer!

@Ciara…that I do not contest but you are also the recipient and therefore have a vested interest and get a gain from this…I don’t and I don’t see my salary rising in increments for time served. Wake up to the fact that it is generally unpopular and does the country no good.

Ciara are you that naive that you think the PS is the only taxpayer?

Obviously not Darren but I think you’ll find its private sector workers who like to remind us that we are paid BY the taxpayer. Maybe now and again people need reminding that we also pay PAYE, PRSI and USC, mortgages, rent, ESB, gas, petrol, phone bills, bin charges, childcare, food, clothes and the rest. We dont live responsibility free charmed lives. We also have had to make changes and cuts and remember the majority of us are not earning anything even remotely near €50k!!

@Ciara, so to recap, the PS pays the same taxes, utility bills, life bills as everyone else, BUT the PS gets an increment increase for length of service. Agreed.

Darren, is the PS increment system new to you or are you acting like it bothers you now that perhaps youve lost your job or taken a cut whereas youd never have worked for our salaries in the first place?

If I had some disposable cash i could spend it in the private sector other than bills etc but until that day happens, i wont be spending so the private sector is going to suffer even more if people have no money to spend!

@ciara, if you took time to read my comments, you would see that I am self employed and work for roughly just above minimum wage.

The PS increment system bothers taxpayers now that we can’t afford to pay for it. That’s all.

Nice rant Daisy. You neglected to comment on the fact that you’re getting a wage increase based on length of service and nothing to do with performance or productivity.

AGAIN Darren, it IS performance based. You only become ELIGIBLE for the long service increment based on service, the increment is granted based on a performance management evaluation. If this has not been submitted or if you fail to make the required standard, you do not get the increment. Please get your facts straight

@Too true left, length of service increases are not performance based, they are wrote into contracts, the PS does not hold interviews to distribute increases, maybe you should try to become Too True Centre!, you’re not fooling anyone here.

Wrong Darren. I had to submit a performance management review confirming my work for the previous year was satisfactory before I was granted my long service increment. I only became eligible for the increment based on service, I was given it based on performance. Thats the way it works.

@too true left, a lot of ‘I’ comments there. So ‘you’ submitted a review on the work that’ you’ submitted thus enabling ‘you’ to get an increase to ‘your’ wages because in ‘your’ long time there ‘you’ completed ‘your’ contractual obligations to which ‘you’ receive a weekly wage and then based on ‘your’ submission, you get a bonus!!!! Sounds mad doesn’t it!!!!

I’ll explain it nice and simple for you Darren, as it seems to be necessary. You are eligible to be considered for the long service increment based on service. You cannot be given that increment unless a performance management review has been completed and a satisfactory ranking given by your supervisor and division manager. A current performance management report showing your performance to be deemed satisfactory by your supervisor as signed off by the division manager must be in place before you are granted the long service increment that you are insisting is given automatically.

Hopefully you can adsorb the information above without any further explanation.

@Too Trueleft

How many of your colleagues failed to get their increment?
A pretty worthless “performance management” system I’ll bet!

In relation to the pay review, I would think that the majority of staff would be in favour of it, however, as the majority of staff are on approx the average wage it may not be financially viable to do this for all levels of the sector, possibly for the top level, and something along those lines is currently happening anyway.

Alan, there is no ‘automatic’ scale of measure. Increments are linked to an annual performance management assessment with 6 monthly review.

How do you make that out how can a nurse for example be judged on work if somebody is sick and they don’t get better do you cut their pay just because person did not get better or worse still die and say they are not performing at their work

Pay increments have long been built into permanent contracts. I agree with the agenda comment, however its also difficult to disagree with others who say we cant afford this. Minister for public expenditure and public account committee didnt sent out much information on the TD’s getting circa 23/26000 additional expenses so agenda MUCH!

I don’t think we have to revert to them being on the top scale but perhaps it’s worth deferring some/allincrements to when we can afford them …

Its not a case of bashing the public sector. People should get pay increases in the public sector the same as the private sector on the basis of performance not the fact they have been there for x number of years. That is the problem. Brilliant or utterly useless public sector employees seem to get treated the same regardless

It’s amazing that these public pay debates are still characterised by puerile jousts about private versus public, public sector bashing, the public sector don’t know who easy they have it etc etc. These are all smoke screens, the only question is, can you afford it, nothing else. Entitlement, length of service, the fact that some may be relatively low paid are irrelevant because if a country continues to borrow more money than it takes to pay pay increases, don’t mind the terminology debate, that’s what they are ,then this country will go broke, simple really .Luckily, for those in the public sector the government will cut our services to the quick, tax us for everything we they can think of rather than face up to unions. So let’s all progress the debate, we know how we got here but what do we now ? Will we keep borrowing money to pay our “rightful” increments? (over 2K people will get increment and they are on over 70K considering they are already 25% higher paid than their German counterparts, its actually laughable. Oh before the “bond holder brigade” start spouting nonsense, That’s a different debate we all agree on . This debate centres on the fallout from “Berties” 8 year campaign to buy elections through successive benchmarking programs! Tell me folks what the plan ?epecially the red thumbers , what will we cut or tax to make sure the increments keep rolling

I disagree. Increments are viewed incorrectly as pay increases.

If you apply for a job and are told that the remuneration for the position is €50k but that you will start on €40k and receive €1k each year and after 10 years you will reach the full pay for the position, this can hardly be viewed as a pay increase.

I would suggest that this should be viewed as an innovative way to stagger your wage bill while at the same time keeping your employees ‘sweet’.

Remember, this arrangement is not the fault of the employees. It is simply the methodology chosen by the public sector.

13.1% deficit says we shouldn’t be making payments like these. End of story ya can’t argue it.

Nucky,you cant be serious, anyway ,it dosent matter who’s is right on the increment thing ,How do we pay for it considering we borrow already to pay for what you have? what will we cut to pay for you increment or maybe we can go back to a window tax , sorry for being flippant but if you do have an answer ill be glad to hear it ,truthfully i dont care if you all get pay increasess if we can afford it , good luck to you but dont expect me to pay another stupid tax where the only safe jobs in the country get increment despite the fact you are paid more than your european counterparts

@Tensing. Thankfully, I am not a public sector worker as I have my own electronics company. I do however have sympathy with the constant ‘we can’t afford to pay you’ nonsense spouted by social commentators like yourself.

Again Nucky , for the THIRD time , what would you do to pay for the increments? You’re a typical of those who bang on about of this that and the other but have no solutions , nothing , no doubt you’ll complain if your local hospita A&E was closed down all the while advocating this position , maybe you know something the rest of us dont. Maybe you company “magics” money .

@Tensing. The increments are already factored into the public sector wage bill. Its called a budgetary process where you know what your expenditure will be and make provision for it in your annual budget.
Remember, withholding increments would effectively disadvantage those who are not at the top if their pay-scale. I understand your frustration however it is misguided. You should be arguing for a pay-cut across the board rather than focussing on the increments which in my opinion is a red herring.
As for coming up with where the money comes from? Its simple, we borrow from the troika, the same way as we always do. Not sure which part of that you don’t understand?

In essence, you are angry that some people are getting what they are entitled to which is fair enough but I don’t think that being rude to me strengthens your argument either way.

This Country’s economy never justified paying wages at these ridiculously inflated levels.

And I don’t think its justifiable that public sector workers should get inflated wages just to pay their huge mortgages and loans to corrupt banks.

In the private sector….
If you can’t pay your bills…
Then you can’t pay your bills!

Maybe its just that your house and car was never worth what your bank led you to believe it was worth?

@Nucky: the increases are not “already factored in”. To pay the increases requires an increased budget year on year. It doesn’t grow on trees you know!

Irrespective, the public sector wage bill is known in advance each year and budgeted for. Your comment makes no sense

The public sector pay bill is not growing.

Actually Daniel it’s the other way around. The public sector is in quite a large part propping up private sector. The amount of consultants taken on by the public sector is phenomenal. And the bills or that is also phenomenal. The public service is getting ridden by private sector consultants. Look at the children’s hospital bills so far just to get through (or not in this case) the planning process.

Public sector spend our wages in the private sector so its cyclical.

Ciara – that’s not what I’ve said.

What I said is that we’re struggling to pay bills for hospitals, and public servants get pay increase. If private company can’t pay its bills – there are no bonuses, no increases. How come it’s so different when one works in public sector?

Nad I’ll say again Daniel. The public sector bill is going down. The existing staff do much more work to make up for retirements that haven’t been replaced.

Daniel, i cant afford to pay my bills as it is too so ive cut back. If the average PS worker loses anymore money then private sector will suffer as a result. People scoffed at our wages for years and were disgusted at the idea of working in the PS and now we are the enemy?

Who’s talking about loosing anything?

You guys are getting pay-rise. I’m yet to see company where 75% of employees are due one… in the middle of the recession … where employer cannot pay it’s bills as it is…

most people are down way more than that so enjoy.

Wow, I’m self employed, deliver a better service than I did last year although my wages is down by a 3rd. I would love E12 a month extra. What did you do in the medical services Ciara that you didn’t do the previous year to warrant an increase of E12?

Darren, last year I cancelled my health insurance, bill phone and ntl, I put my heating on for 1 hour every second day so maybe thats why im now up 12 euros a month!

Another point Darren, due to the embargo we are short staffed so my workload has increased dramatically as has the number of patients. I do on average an extra hour a day at least and I still get the work done so maybe thats worth the extra 12 quid?

No Ciara, you said you got an increment, so that’s why you’re ‘up’ E12 a month. By the way, good to see you making the same cutbacks as the rest of us with regards utilities.

See Darren, even us evil PS workers are struggling the same as everyone else. We arent all off on mad holidays or buying up property.

Yes Ciara, you are 100% correct, both sectors are suffering. Where do I go Ciara to get an incremental increase in my wages so the 2 sectors can continue to be more alike? We are already borrowing money for your ‘ normal ‘ wage, not to mention your increase for ‘ length of service ‘ which is not performance based. Thanks for attempting to debate with me.

@darren -human resources?

Actually Darren, it IS performance based. You only become ELIGIBLE for the long service increment based on service, the increment is granted based on a performance management evaluation. If this has not been submitted or if you fail to make the required standard, you do not get the increment. Please get your facts straight if you’re going to rail at people, instead of taking the cherrypicked snippets of information as fact.

Darren, so why didnt you go for a public sector job when so many of them were unfilled for years?
You could have one of these permanent jobs and ‘lucrative’ salaries ?

Why didnt you think about increments when you were planning your career/job?

@Ciara, I would have gone into the PS, but I had to take over a family business. No increments for me even though I’m +25yrs there. No lavish holidays taken, not even a second shed never mind a second house. No handouts for me ever, I’m guilty of just paying my taxes and getting on with it. But thanks for your concern and don’t worry, as you gain life experience, you will become a better debater.

Darren, you ‘had’ to take over a business? This isnt the 1950s. You made your decisions to take over a business. Everyone is doing what they can to make ends meet.
I havent had a holiday since 2005 and Im 35 and still renting because i cant afford to buy and certainly couldnt afford to during the boom but like you, Im just getting on with it.

Stephen, what are you on about… your party brought in Croke park … Bloody cheek you have now claiming it should be reformed.

Id get paid more in the private sector.

Ordinary bank staff haven’t gotten any pay rises, their pay is all down significantly in fact, and that’s for those that still have jobs.

Are you certain you could even get a job in the private sector Ciara – there’s a lot of competition out there. Just sayin’…….

Hopefully the public service will have sufficient maturity to realise that the nation cannot afford to pay these increments when so many of their fellow citizens are in dire straights.

If the public sector workers were to refuse to accept these increments as a mark of solidarity with their fellow citizens, and absolutely insist that politicians follow suit: the benefit to Ireland, in terms of raising the spirits of the people, would be much greater than any savings valued in Euro. This is an opportunity for real leaders to step forward and lead by example.

Can only live in hope, wishing for an outbreak of common sense all round the table…….

Micí, Ive had 2 job offers in the private sector over the past 18 months but i went for the job security instead.
I personally wouldnt have a problem with a pay freeze or increment freeze etc, Id also have no issue with 6 monthly appraisals in fact id welcome appraisals as we’d definitely weed out the slackers and dossers from those who work for their pay.

Thanks for replying Ciara, it’s good to hear that people are getting job offers, encourages me to redouble my efforts.

The flexibility you demonstrate in being prepared to accept an increment freeze + appraisals at this time shows an empathy with your fellow citizens and leadership qualities which are sadly lacking in the upper echelons of the PS. You have done something towards restoring my faith in humanity Ciara, I thank you for this….

If thats the case Ciara do us all a favour and take your wages off the Public Sector Pay Bill thanks very much. When the public purse that has to cover it all its a very hard pill to swallow – ESPECIALLY when you consider the “job safety” aspect you just mentioned. Nonsense.

Its a shame that most people consider the public servants all to be office 9-5 workers on 60-100k per year, many of our public servants are out providing an essential service to the public, fire-fighter / paramedics/ nurses and garda , yet we are all painted with the same over paid crap sprouted weekly by reporters who are too busy trying to cause the public/private sector row…neither one cause the problems we find ourselves in , it was the chosen few , who havent nor will ever feel the burden of wages cuts .. these so call reporters would be better turning there attention to the few that caused our debt… instead of blaming public private sectors and their so called greed

@james – you nearly did it there. If you had only mentioned ‘tear up the CPA’ in you post I would have one in my Anti-PS rant bingo game. Every time a tired old point is trotted out you mark off a square. It’s great fun. You had most of them by mentioning the secure jobs, suggesting a pay freeze etc but let me down by not getting the CPA in. Another time I’m sure.

we are happy with permanent pensionable jobs which are the very jobs people like you wouldnt take because they didnt pay enough!
You chose to work in the private sector. Id get paid more if I worked in a private hospital but I went for permanency over cash.

Apologies James, but increments are around 2-3% per year, slightly above inflation. The pay cut amounted to an average of 15% in one go.. But, please, don’t let the facts get in the way of your vitriol fuelled rant.

@Ciara…there are many reasons that people do not work in the public sector but lower salaries is not one of them.

@ Grant. Take it from somebody who works in the public sector alongside private sector contractors, they would not do my job for the money I’m on. Not even close.

@TooTrueLeft

I have worked in the public sector and the private sector and in the main I have not found this to be the case. I accept that your own situation may be different but my main point was more about balancing the books. It does not make fiscal sense to continue down this route.

I do appreciate that not all public sector workers get paid above €50K a year and that times are tight for everyone. However, it makes no sense to continue down this route if everyone has to pay the price for it. A freeze on increments for an agreed period of a couple of years would allow for some breathing room and contribute to lessening the pain that we are all currently experiencing.

@ Grant. Further cut the pay of 10% of the Irish workforce and we ALL pay the price. Most of the 300,000 people employed in service to the public hav ehad their disposable income wiped out with devastating kniock on consequences for the private sector as a result. Taking even more money from people who HAVE to spend it in the economy is going to help how exactly??

Cut the PS jobs, and put them to work in the real productive economy.

Is this the ‘lucrative’ pension again? If you wanted one, why didnt you get a public sector job?
My pension plus state pension will give me less than €400 a week when I retire.

The jobs were there James and you didnt bother with them even when you knew there was a pension involved.

James, if you are talking about the pension levy, again you are wrong. The pension levy is deducted from our wages because the government keep borrowing from the pension reserve fund, leaving insufficient money to pay the pensions of those currently in retirement. It is NOT a contribution to our own pensions. Please check your information, you’re starting to look ignorant now.

@Ciara…thats not the answer is it?

“If you wanted one, why didnt you get a public sector job?”

You are displaying all the hallmarks of the “I am alright Jack” philosophy which does not feed the greater good. Self protectionism is fine if it has no consequences but I am afraid incremental increases do have an effect when we have to borrow more as a country to satisfy an agreement or agreements that were made which would never hold water in a pure commercial or economical sense.

I don’t agree with James’ pension remarks even though I know that pre-1984 superannuated pension schemes are still killing this countries economic landscape due to the outrageously high levels that are being paid out.

I have accepted that my own situation is that I won’t get any pay rises, increments etc… in the near future and that I am fortunate to have employment so why can’t you? If we want to get out of this mess then everyone has to do their own respective bit to ensure it happens sooner rather than later.

Grant, the greater good? Now Youre starting to sound like the politicans who are telling us that the house hold charge, water charges, handing our money to the banks and bailing them out is for ‘ the greater good’!

Should i take another cut just because you might have? Everyone having no job or money wont make the situation in the country any better, it will just make it worse. People need to be able to spend some money in the private sector to get things moving but if no one has any money then the private sector is well and truly shafted.

@Ciara…who mentioned anything about cutting your salary? I didn’t. I merely said that taking a freeze on increments would contribute to making a very bad situation a little better. Yourself and @TooTrueLeft seem to forget that others don’t have the entitlement that you do.

And that is the key word “entitlement”.

Why should you and other public servants be automatically “entitled” to an increment due to length of service? What a ridiculous proposition!

As I said in a former post I have no problem with people receiving pay rises if it is warranted by business and personal performance as a direct result of the staff in questions contribution that has been measured by KPI’s and over an agreed intervals and a period of time.

That is the core of most peoples issue with this is that 63% of those in the public service will receive an increment on their salary yet I and many others do not benefit, only pay for it.

Incidentally I still believe in the greater good, which unions have so proficiently harped on about for years and not self protectionism, which is more like their real agenda. Ask your union rep why they do what they do and what they get as payment apart from their salary for representing you and maybe ask your union president what they get for a salary and who pays for that.

I have nothing against public sector workers in general but I do have a problem with the demands made upon all of us by the people that represent you without a thought to what the consequences of that might be.

I have already said that Im ok with pay and increment freezes. I dont get pay increases any way and my increment arent worth the paper theyre written on.

How do you suggest we appraise nurses, doctors, physiotherapists, occupational therapists, scientists in the Public sector though?

@ Grant. Nobody in the civil service is ‘entitled’ to an increment. They can be deferred or refused outright if you are not satisfactory.

@Too TrueLeft: so give us the stats on how many had their increments refused or reduced due to poor performance.

sounds like a challenge ;)

Where did I say that, James? Any of it?
Yes, I will have a pension when I retire, to which I contribute every month. AS WELL AS THIS I pay a pension levy contribution every month. This is not a contribution to my own pension.

Sarah, Im glad you feel that way cos anyone Ive spoken to are in agreement with each other. There will be no pension there for us. I wont have 40 years contribution as I didnt start working till I was 30 so 35 years contribution will be gone down the swanny by the time Im retiring.

I live in hope, Ciara!

You’re using a jesuitical argument. The truth is that your payments are contributing to paying for the cost of public sector pensions, just as your pensions will be funded from future contributions. You’ve got a pretty good deal for the money spent.,

Hows this James: The CPA came about after public servants took a 15% hit on their salaries to ensure they would not get hit even more for the term of the agreement. How about everybody with a job pays 2% extra income tax? Should net the same as hitting public servants for ANOTHER 15%. Got a problem with that way of doing things?

Are you SERIOUSLY contending that a few years of these increments have cancelled out the average 15% pay cut civil servants have experienced?

James, that’s a ridiculous thing to say and it proves how little you know about the topic. I have lost €1000 per month take home pay since the start of the recession. Similar to Ciara, my increment is worth about €15 per month. Try doing a little research and maybe your comments will hold a little water…..

@too true left, what will replace the 15%+ cuts that everyone outside the PS gets? We don’t get an incremental increase because of length of service.

Neither do we Darren. We become eligible to be considered for it based on service, we are granted it based on performance. Now, I know you think repeating the same misinformation enough times fools people but it does not. I work in the civil service and know how it works.