FYI. Palmer has been largely discredited. A report forwarded before the UN General Assembly, Human Rights Council on the 27th September 2010 declared that “the Mission is satisfied that the blockade was inflicting disproportionate damage upon the civilian population in the Gaza strip and that as such the interception could not be justified and therefore has to be considered illegal”. Also with regard to the attack on the flotilla on May 31st 2010 the same fact finding mission said “no case could be made for intercepting the vessels in the exercise of belligerent rights or Article 51 self- defence. Thus, no case can be made for the legality of the interception and the Mission therefore finds that the interception was illegal” You say the embargo is legitimate, how familiar are you with the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (1982) or International covenant on civil and political rights (1966) or The London declaration (1909) or perhaps San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at
Sea (1994). For you to infer its a legitimate embargo I’ll assume you’re an International Lawyer or at best a student of International Law. Also I’ll assume you’ve read Palmer and he has informed your decision. Have you read the report of the international fact-finding mission to investigate violations of international law, including international humanitarian and human rights law, resulting from the Israeli attacks on the flotilla of ships carrying humanitarian assistance. Hudson-Phillips. UN Human Rights Council, Fifteenth session, Agenda item 1, 27 September 2010. Its a good read. May help shape your adept legal analysis of the Gaza blockade.

Sorry Frankie — The UN Human Rights Council has no credibility: in May 2010 it actually elected Gaddafi’s LIbya to its chair and has had Iran as a member. Its report of Sep. 2010 on the flotilla incident has no credibility either. It examined no witnesses to the event and had its report ready within a month of the incident. Its conclusion was entirely predictable given its built-in anti-Israel majority drawn from the group of nations that can always be relied upon to pass anti-Israel resolutions.

On the other hand, the Palmer commission was commissioned by UN Secretary General Ban Ki Moon, was headed by a former New Zealand prime minister, took a year to do its work, examined all relevant witnesses and was overseen by reputable international observers. No comparison. Its report upheld the legality of the blockade in line with the San Remo Manual and other legal indicators, while also criticising the IDF men for using excessive force in defending themselves.

Easy to say that. I don’t buy Palmer, the UNHRC isn’t the bunch of rogue states you make it out to be.

Dermot, it’s plain as day that the UN has credibility in you eyes when it supports Israel, and none when it doesn’t. Take off the blinkers.

What astounding ignorance! Only yesterday came the news that Moshe Katsav, a former president of Israel, had his conviction for rape confirmed by the Israeli Supreme Court, one of the members of which is an Israeli Arab judge.

Learn some facts please before you parrot slogans…

I honor your Falsetinian proPALganda and your right to stick to it. But I and many others prefer to support the right side of that story – Israel.

“Alienating middle ground”, Adam L ? I think people are becoming tired of these so-called attention seeking “activists”. Look at the time, energy & money they wasted. I’m cynical re Chris Andrews involvement. I suspect he is doing this to earn some brownie points with the “right on” trendy lefties here. Gimme a break !!

I’m feeling pretty alienated by the attitudes I’ve seen displayed on this site.

Honestly, to listen to some of you, you’d think that there was only one side to this conflict.

Not talking about you, Declan, just an observation.

Bonjour, Naill M. As Dolly Parton sings – “Here We Go Again …..”. Enjoy the ride !!!! On a serious note – long live difference. Makes life much more interesting. U have a nice day now, y’hear !!

You too, chief…

Israel is not so “selective in this area” and treating her enemies the same way. So the Falsetinian terrorists are responsible to the Israel self defending actions and its consequences.

God, Petra, I really need to learn to leave this stuff alone ….

“Palestinian children are at high risk of health problems related to malnutrition. Informing Gazean families about the importance of following healthy dietary habits especially breastfeeding could improve child’s nutritional status in parallel with overcoming the devastating economic condition.”

http://www.springerlink.com/content/921411r614888501/

Let’s repeat that – “devastating economic condition”. Nobody’s saying that the blockade is the sole cause of malnutrition in Gaza, but it undoubtedly a major cause.

One of the pro-Israelis thought he had a great point on another thread, albeit without particularly strong evidence, in saying that anaemia prevalence in Egypt runs at 50%, while Gaza’s, per that study cited, runs at 72%. Even taking that argument at its height, that’s still a massive, massive difference.

Would be interested, also, in seeing statistics for child malnutrition and anaemia in Israel. I think it’s a valid reference point, if we’re to also accept Egypt as a valid reference point.

Think I may be engaging in a small bit of whataboutery there … speaking of which, nobody’s saying that the things you mention aren’t human rights abuses. What’s at issue here is the fact that the Israeli blockade is a human rights abuse.

There are rules, even in war. Collective punishment is a war crime, per the Geneva Conventions.

Blue in the face saying this by this stage, but if you think military tactics that lead to the brutalisation of the civilian populace, particularly malnutrition among children, can ever be legitimate, then you need to take a long, hard look in the mirror.

And rights abuses anywhere in the world are everyone’s concern – people saying “it’s an internal affair, none of our business” is a basically a tacit endorsement.

Totally, Petra O’Toole. Especially your last sentence. We have enough probs of our own here to deal with. Families who “are” on the edge & who “cannot” make ends meet. Let the Israelis & Palestinians work out their own probs & they can & will if/whn left alone to do so.

Petra, Who is responsible for most of the framework of Public international law? I think it impossible to argue a case of legality/illegality in Public International law without once referencing the UN. Is that not fair to say? You do know what the UN is right, they’re not an NGO and very much not “holier than thou”.

I argued with his declaration of illegality not with the rights and wrongs of the blockade, morality and Law are two completely different things. But furthermore the MV Saoirse of Tahrir didn’t get to involved in the war it was an Aid Flotilla, Do you think the ICRC should be deported and arrested for interfering in conflict zones and delivering humanitarian aid?

The heavy handedness of Israel on the high seas (a minor part of their complete disregard for human rights in Gaza, The West Bank and supporters of palestine in general) is not even comparable to even the greatest human rights violations here in Ireland.

Ireland has membership to the UN, EU, WTO, ILO, WHO, IMF, UNESCO, CTBTO, OPCW, OECD, International Civil Aviation Organisation, Universal Postal Union, World Bank Group, International Atomic Energy Agency, Council of Europe, International Maritime Organisation, World Intellectual Property Organisation, International Fund for Agricultural Development to name just a few, does membership of these organisations not kind of dictate we should have an interest in the what other member states do and how they interact on an international scale or should we as you put it “keep our noses out of other people’s business” and leave all these organisations and assume absolute sovereignty over all our affairs and stop dealing with other countries, stop trade and treaties?

Just interested to know what dozen countries you would cease relations with before Israel?

So Declan, Nazi concentration camps would have been an internal matter, and none of our business, by that logic?

I think we have a duty not to turn a blind eye. And yes, this includes Hamas, Syria, etc.

Interesting point Declan. Should US stay out of it as well as Russia? Maybe the EU should just walk away as well, I mean what business does it have in imposing sanctions on Iran seeing as that (Iran’s belligerence towards Israel) is none of our business either. Lets everyone from the UN, EU, US and everywhere else just leave them to it and let them sort it out them selves.

I’ve visited 3 Nazi concentration camps, Niall. Including the awful Auschwitz. Very sad places & the ultimate symbol of one’s intolerance towards another. The Nazis perfected it & I strongly disagree with your comparison. ( A nice wee skud thrown in there btw !! ). Israel does help, assist & live in co-exixtence with their Muslim & Christian neighbour. See http://www.haemek.co.il. Impartial help does exist in Israel towards Muslims & visa versa. That’s just an example.

Of course they need international help, Brian Ward ( got it right today !! ). What all don’t need is interfering busybodies.

@Niall, you you got it 100% on the money :) Declan and Barry, having visited Auswich etc, should know 100% how badly humans can treat each other, and unfortunately, the Israelis are treating the Palestinians as sub human. Am i right in asking, did Declan and barry have issue with the IRA forming to fight for the rights of the Irish in the North of Ireland? Would they have an issue with the people of Syria rising up against an oppressive regime, using guerilla (or terrorist) tactics there ? I dont think so… but when it happens in your own back yard, then you are so quick to condemn the perpetrators…. shame on you.

With respect to our Lithuanian fellow-Europeans, I don’t think they should get involved in comment on the war fought by the IRA in Northern Ireland without learning a lot more about it. Just one small fact to get you started: the IRA was not ‘fighting for the rights of the Irish’ but fighting to put one community of Irish people under the rule of another community of Irish people without their consent; the IRA never had the support of a majority of their own community in waging this war — they were a minority within a minority.

It’s also fair to say that citizens from a country with a very bad anti-Semitic record, whose large Jewish population was annihilated in 1941-2 in horrific mass shootings carried out by Nazi Einsatzgruppen aided by willing local collaborators should be slow to condemn the state founded by the survivors with unfounded allegations such as ‘treating Palestinians as sub-human’.

With respect to the Zionist lobby, play the ball not the woman.

And don’t state your biased, Thatcherite reading of the troubles as fact. If you want to be like that:, it’s actually a case that one community had been placed under the thumb of another before the start of the troubles, oppressed by the full force of the British state. The IRA campaign was never an attempt to subjugate the Unionists, but to attain political civil and political equality. Never heard of “parity of esteem”?

And it the IRA never had mass support, how come Sinn Féin are the largest nationalist party now, when everyone knows that they’re tied to the IRA? Do you think they put guns to people’s heads in the polling booths?

I am afraid not, Petra, I’ve posted evidence – peer reviewed, scholarly papers – as to malnutrition among Gaza’s children on previous threads, check the #Gaza hashtag.

There is a difference between “war crime” and illegal.

“The Palestinians have plenty of what they need” please do elaborate?

and just to be pedantic… “their” terror attacks and deadly missiles.

Petra they didn’t conspire to enter Israel illegally as you say they were forced to enter Israel at gunpoint, big difference!

Fantastically un biased source there the Israeli Defense Forces youtube account.

Are you trying to say they made it up?? We are constantly shown videos by Palestinian activists. Do you show the same level of suspicion of bias with them??

Of course, every belligerents media sources and publications are obviously going to be biased towards their agenda. Its just funny that the Israeli Defense Forces ( a military that prides itself as a strong, efficient fighting machine) would stoop so low as to post a video of them being attacked with “metal rods” on the Mavi Marmara, a vessel they boarded armed to the teeth with weapons, as justification for opening fire and murdering 9 people.

Think about it Frankie… How do you abseil down a rope from a helicopter ‘armed to the teeth’? How do you deal with half a dozen guys waiting for you below with metal rods cut from the ship’s railings (captain’s evidence)?

Read ‘Bloodstained Mavi Marmara’ by Sefik Dinc for a full account — not IDF propaganda but a Turkish journalist, something of an admirer of the Islamist ‘charity’ IHH.

They “abseil down a rope from a helicopter ‘armed to the teeth’?” Because they’re trained to. It’s not impossible don’t be silly. Armed to the teeth is just a phrase, M4s or what ever is standard issue is enough to consider them heavily armed. And you “deal with half a dozen guys waiting for you below with metal rods cut from the ship” with similar force not murder. No justification for that at all.