Agreed, as the older generations die off in Ireland the church will be in a massive crisis as there is no longer a large percentage of believers left in this country.

The age of the catholic church trying to run our country is coming to an end and they’re is nothing the Vatican can do about it anymore.

The figures and changes speak for themselves, church closing, not enough people joining the priesthood, numbers in churchs down in a massive way. People wanting religion out of schools.

Whats “God” got to do with the Cathloic Church ;o)

Well said a good one, really really true!!!! ;-)

They should stop having sex with children

Looking at the poll 2hrs into the thread and 68% strongly disagree. Given the demographic of the readership it looks like it’s thumbs down for the Romans!

burn it too the ground, lets start a new church that preaches about the evils of wealth accumulation and politicians and doesnt live by the code “do as i say not as i do”, p.s. the remaining congregations are deluded

Unfortunately I think they will recover!

the catholic Ard Feis this year will be an eye opener.

I think perfectly summed it up for most people! The Catholic Church is a corrupt and oppressive organisation. People can still be Christian and have Christian values but not be members of the Catholic Church! There is a massive difference

Well said Barbara. St Patrick was sent to Ireland by the Pope Celestine to rob Ireland of its inherited spirituality. The Irish were always very spiritual and in tune with Mother Nature.

Someone must be pressing the report button maliciously.

The comments seem to be going in all over the place.

If the state takes over the schools and makes them all multi denominational that will happen Caoimhe but currently parents are basically blackmailed into baptising their children to get places in local schools.

@ Caoimhe
You’ve hit the nail on the head!

@ sandra.

NAIL ON HEAD & ITS A SAD SITUATION. IT NEEDS TO BE CHANGED ASAP

As Sandra has rightly said parents are black mailed into the situation, they have to baptize their kids to ensure they will get into local schools, these schools are STATE FUNDED so this certainly should not be the case.

Pull religion out of schools and watch the situation change

@Aidan. In the past people lived in fear of the priests. The younger generation simply have no idea what it was like to live in a country where the local PP could strike fear into most of his parishioners. The notion that one
might speak back to this Man of God was unthinkable. In many quarters it was considered “unlucky” to have an argument with “a man of the cloth”, who might inflict a “curse” on the family!! I kid you not!!!! :(

I did the same as you Regina. I knew by my teens that I couldn’t be part of church that treated women as second class citizens even before the abuse issues came to public attention in the 80′s. I ensured where possible that my children were not indoctrinated by the RCC especially in their younger years but with the shortage of school places now an issue and preference being given to Catholic children I can’t blame a parent who goes along with the system. I just hope more demand the system changes.

Well said Regina. Attendance and participation is enablement of a misogynistic, pedophilic organisation. I feel sorry for the truly decent priests who are left within the confines of a seminary they do not sincerely believe in.

Well said too Sandra-
the treating of women as second class citizens is another major reason why the church is doomed.

Cause it gets your kids into some schools for FREE in some situations. Thats the only reason.

Most parents don’t have a choice Orlaith, if they want their kids to go to school.

If they don’t baptise their kids then often they have next to no chance of getting the kid into the local STATE FUNDED school because its catholic, ok there is educate together schools but that could be 30-40miles away with no public transport.

Essentially its a monopoly and one that is funded by our taxes, if we are going to fund catholic schools in this manner then its only fair we fund Muslin, Jewish, protestant schools also…..this of course won’t happen.

Easiest way to fix this is take all religion out of school and leave religion up to the parents, priests or pastors and to church or so called sunday schools. Teaching a faith is not the job of any government, unless of course they are going to teach all faiths equal.

Personally speaking, one of the reasons I had my child baptised and will have no qualms for communion or conferring is that it makes life easier Ito the future for him, even though I’d rather not be accused of hypocrisy. I do not want my child to feel isolated or victimised at any point in the future simply because I refused to let him make partake in any of these catholic rituals (?), based on my beliefs. He deserves to feel included in anything his class mates are doing ..

Orlaith, the lads reasons aren’t the only reasons. They are old pagan ceremonies that were hijacked by CC. Most people believe in something whether it just be life, Mother Nature or the good in Humanity. Those occasions are family/community celebrations and we Irish like a bit of craic. ;)

what is there to get??? i baptised my children… they will receive communion and confirmation and hopefully if they wish get married in a church….am i to be condemned for being a catholic… which i am by my own choice…. who is anyone to tell another person that they should not have a religious element to their lives…. i thought the day for ethnic cleansing was gone…… don’t judge others…like in turn you wouldn’t want to be judged….

People still believe in their faith, they just don’t believe in the organisation who’s over their faith.

This is the part I don’t understand.
By allowing a child to be baptised into the Roman Catholic Church, you are undertaking to raise that child as a Roman Catholic. Further, during the ‘rite of baptism’ you promise to follow the teachings of said Church and to ensure your child follows same.
Anyone who does this, despite having lost faith with the R.C.C., is nothing short of a hypocrite.
If enough parents make enough fuss about their child(children) not having a local school (non denominational) to attend then maybe, just maybe, the government, however incompetent, might just fast-track the process of claiming back the majority of schools that the Roman Church has been allowed to use as a primary means of indoctrination.
Either stand for something or fall for everything!

No Michael. We are rule breakers and we inherently know that the Church and our Spirituality belongs to us. As I said these are ceremonies that we like to fulfil. It’s time we took our Spirituality back too as well as our churches and schools. The wealth of the CC in Ireland belongs to us. It should be used to compensate those that paid the price of the Church’s absolute power.

@ Reada
“ceremonies we like to fulfil” – why?
Baptism – you can have a ‘Christian’ baptism without the need to be part of the Roman Church
First Communion – you are allowing your child to partake of the MOST divisive ‘sacrament’ of the Roman Church (which teaches that only it’s Communion is valid, i.e. it alone has the monopoly on God)
Confirmation – by it’s very nature you are allowing your child to say publicly ‘yes, I am a confirmed Catholic and I believe in the Roman Catholic Church’………….do they? do you?
To me it’s akin to a husband/wife taking the marriage vow but really not meaning a word of it!

I know what you mean Michael. We’re gas. I’ve said already that I don’t mind people having their religious beliefs. My main problem is with the Vatican and their rules. I’d love if people would carry these ceremonies on a hill top somewhere. ;)

@Martin Mac – I’m not even Christian, never mind Catholic, and my kids are not baptised. They are educated for free in the local Catholic school. Even if what you say is true, then that’s a scandalous state of affairs, and should be addressed. Ordinary people are propping up the RCC because they count everyone they could ever get their claws on at whatever age as members. They then use these inflated, false numbers to muscle into positions of power all over the world.

Tis more of a cultural thing. I did my confirmation at 12. All that money. It was great. I have nothing but disbelief for Catholic doctrine and they will no longer allow us to defect. If I die my parents would probably have a church funeral. Why? Because it’s kinda the norm. Neither of my parents are religious.

Kop,
Its not you or your faith people are upset about, its the way the church is run by corrupt leadership that is the problem

Not reading all that? How do you form your opinions, from just headlines or what you see as graffiti?

If you dont believe in who cares?
Let them demolish their own church with their own stupidity

Gotten over what?

Good point, Paul. But not me! I formally defected (when you still could) and have never had my children baptised. They have, however, been exposed to all manner and form of religions as they grew up and I’ve always believed calling to a particular faith or dogma should occur when one is a fully mature adult. I only set foot inside a church these days for the odd family or close friend funeral, and that reluctantly! I do agree one should walk the walk and not just talk the talk. I think the real silent majority are the “2-percenters” who still do the minimal shtick to appease families and whatnot. And that’s a shame. If you don’t buy into it, don’t be a hypocrite. Walk away.

Maria, your post made me think of the old hymn we were taught back in the 60′s, “They Will Know We are Christians by Our Love.” And it reminded me of the current battle cry of Catholic Church leaders in the US that they’re being “persecuted” because the government wants to insure that women’s health and reproductive prescriptives are provided by US insurance companies. Anyone is (or should be) free to believe and practice as they see fit and not be persecuted. But there’s a difference between true persecution, or “bigotry and hatred” and simply calling the Church on its own history of abuse and persecution. Or in the case of religious leaders fighting against women’s healthcare (blurring the lines between separation of Church and State), not getting everything their way. What you’re seeing here are the posts of those who hate what the Church has done to them, and to their families. If you live your life as Jesus would, show compassion and love, tolerance and understanding, no one would ever show you bigotry or hatred. But that also means your spiritual leaders must act the same way. And it is up to good Catholics to call their leadership on the carpet when they don’t. In fact, it should be a moral obligation on the part of every Catholic. And if they can’t, then absolutely they should and will be rooted out like a bad cancer, and good riddance. If anything, given the sparse weekly attendance at the Pro Cathedral, I’m surprised the numbers aren’t higher for those believing there’s no hope.

I’m not sure if you’re right, Mari- Jesus himself led a life of compassion and love, but was subjected to bigotry and hatred. There are people who want to discuss issues that they have with the Catholic Church, but there are definitely others who view religion of any sort as just so much rubbish and are not slow to spew their vitriolic derision.

Dermot martin is a breath of fresh air but he has had to publicly bring the rest of the hierarchy kicking and screaming into the 21st century. He is a man of morals but he is in the minority. With regard to ur comment on being fed up with people using the child abuse scandals to spout their christian phobias, I think the word is anti catholic sentiment. The memories for the people who were abuse d don’t just go away to ensure that you don’t get fed up. These people have to live forever with the memories of what they went through. Would you prefer it if all the abuse scandals were kept quiet just to prevent you from getting fed up?

Sean, you’re only still a wee lad; not a fully-formed, thinking adult. I have socks older than you. Give yourself time. You didn’t grow up in an era when paedophilia, child-selling, rape and torture was rampant (lucky you). The last Magdalene Laundry closed just two years after you were born. I’d recommend a bit of catch-up reading on your Church’s history before spouting off about “christianophobia.” Your self-righteous outrage is based on nothing but a sheltered life, lived comfortably far away from the zenith of the Church’s abuse in Ireland. Stick to the Justin Bieber boards, where your comments may have some gravitas.

Sean,
The child abuse scandals are only the beginning of the problems. After that biggie there is the treating women as 2nd class citizens, an unholy fixation on contraception, actually an unholy fixation with sex altogether, not to mention the extremely bloody history of the church.
Then there’s the fact of a huge shortage of priests and the age of true believers is getting older and older.
People have stopped believing in imaginary friends in clouds

Fergal
I was an operational Fire Officer for 15yrs and never saw a roman catholic clergyman at the scene of a road traffic accident.

Working for their communities is fine but doing so while part of that corrupt state is not. They should speak out and say they no longer can prop up the Vatican State.

I feel for the local priests that do good work I really do, the problem is they will only be seen as part of the problem unless they speak out and distance themselves from the actions of the Vatican,.

The underlying problem is is that their faith is in the pope and vatican so thats sadly not going to happen, such a shame that some very good and smart people won’t get away from such bad people that run the organization.

Joe

Other countries have a flourishing charitable sector while allowing the Catholic church to slowly wither away. It’s totally untrue to say that there’d be no charity in Ireland if there were no church.

In fact, if the charities you listed became less bound to the Catholic church, they might find new volunteers and flourish even further.

Silencing the church would also allow more diverse voices to be heard.

It’s time for the Catholic Church to leave Irish society and allow a more diverse, more caring and more responsible civil society to take its place.

Weird, my comment went in above rather than below your’s.

Thats all very well, but nothing you say negates the fact that the Catholic church in Ireland as an organization is in the last stages of decomposition. You guys all sat silently whilst your church facilitated in the rape and buggery of thousands of children. Now that your church is finally on the way out, you somehow manage to have found a voice to defend your institution.

Where were you guys when the truth finally made its way into the light of day?

As a congregation you sat silently, and now you want public support. It’s not going to happen I’m afraid. You had your chance and you guys blew it.

I have to agree with you there. unfortunately the church plugs the massive gaps in services that exist in the provision by the goverment. The daughters of charity for example provide an excellent counselling service for families in distress through suicide or bereavement. That service is just not provided by the goverment (hse) and the hse will actually refer families to this service despite the fact that they are voluntary and underfunded but they provide an excellent service.

But the problem I have with the abuse scandals is not only was there horrific systematic abuse and cruelty but those in charge covered it up. These children reached out for help, they were vulnerable and often had no one else to turn to and they were ignored at best or told they were lying at worst and returned to the abusers. That is what bothers me. They protected themselves and not the children.this is why I have turned my back on the catholic church. They have proved themselves to be morally corrupt.

replied to you but for some reason it went down to the end. Anyway see below ;)

So basicly, we can’t protect our children because otherwise services that that state is supposed to provide (and which in the case of groups like Trocaire, other states *do* provide – because I doubt UNESCO is run by the Vatican), wouldn’t be provided by people who shelter paedophiles.

Joe, you’re defending the indefensible. If good people want to do good in the world, they don’t need to do it from within the folds of a group that does evil with the left hand and good with the right. They don’t need to choose between not helping the poorest communities in Africa or helping them but not giving them condoms to prevent the spread of AIDS; or between not educating children and only teaching them what the Church allows; or between not helping the poor and only helping through the mechanisms of the Church.

Your entire argument is emotional blackmail designed to protect a bunch of predators. Shame on you.

The separation of Chuch and State is very different to the abolition of a church. How can that happen when there are so many devout and committed Catholics anyway? Ireland has changed and It is also worth noting that there are many secular variations of the charities and services you describe. It is disingenuous to imply that the removal/collapse of the Catholic Church would essentially mean an end to charitable works, marriage counselling etc. There are more than Catholics doing good works. what is important is that faith is personalised rather than institutionalised. I am not Catholic, so why should *your* religion be the basis for the laws of the land that I also inhabit and which I support with my taxes? Why should my children sit quietly at the back of a class while yours are prepared for their religious rites (communion/confirmation) during school hours? Why should a devoted teacher fear dismissal is s/he is gay or if she is an unmarried mother? In the latter case, she is likely to be teaching the children of *other* unmarried mothers and, in the former, will be teaching children who will grow up gay. As for that being down to the Catholic ethos of a Catholic school then why isn’t the church paying the teachers’ salaries ?

Faith and spirituality are very important to very many people. But giving one faith dominance over every other is unacceptable and unfair. Why can’t parents take responsibility for the indoctrination of their children in their faith? Surely it would help build family relations too. And while you are right about the knee-jerk reactions of some people whenever the (catholic) church is mentioned, you must surely understand the anger at the heinous crimes that were perpetrated by the few, covered up and enabled by the hierarchy and for which there seems so little redress.

So basicly, we can’t protect our children because otherwise services that that state is supposed to provide (and which in the case of groups like Trocaire, other states *do* provide – because I doubt UNESCO is run by the Vatican), wouldn’t be provided by people who shelter paedophiles.

Joe, you’re defending the indefensible. If good people want to do good in the world, they don’t need to do it from within the folds of a group that does evil with the left hand and good with the right. They don’t need to choose between not helping the poorest communities in Africa or helping them but not giving them condoms to prevent the spread of AIDS; or between not educating children and only teaching them what the Church allows; or between not helping the poor and only helping through the mechanisms of the Church.

Your entire argument is emotional blackmail designed to protect a bunch of predators. Shame on you.

That’s all very well and dandy Joe and you have a point.
However secularists such as myself would take the view that the teachings of Christianity are about charity, morality, being humble and contrite etc. and that, in keeping with their choice, should be their way. This, though, is in direct contradiction of the corrupt, devious, criminal behaviour of the institutional church in it’s dealings with matters in which it has been caught out.
Secularists like myself also find it a unacceptable that the same corrupt institutional church uses it’s power and influence to dictate matters through supporting laws that adversely affect my life and choices.

The fallacy behind this impressive list is the “is/ought” one – the way it is, is the way it ought to be. Yes, these are great services, but they need not be provided by the RCC. The fact that they are is a consequence of history.

Joe, every single one of those organisations can easily transfer to a secular model, which is more transparent and more accountable. When religion is taken out of charity, it works better. Altruism has nothing to do with religious convictions, and people will NOT stop being good to others just because the church has stopped being involved.

You’d insult the Irish people if you claimed it’s only the church’s big stick that moves them to take care of the vulnerable in our society.

@joe The price that the Vatican demands for its “charity and services” is far too high and we cannot afford to turn a blind eye to child rape and abuse.

You’re absolutely right, in many ways secularism is merely the religion of state and as we know state doesn’t give a f**k about people unless they’re wealthy. Socially minded Catholics including clerics like Peter McVerry need to take back whatever is decent about their religion and tell the Vatican to get stuffed. The current pope will be reintroducing the Latin mass soon he’s that conservative.

Joe, I think that’s a ‘cart before the horse’ argument. You seem to assume that these organisations exist because the Catholic Church created them.

It is the people who created these organisations. It is the people who work hard to improve the lives of the neighbours. They may have used the catholic church as a crutch or a support to start these movements, but that’s because these people were products of their upbringing, before the moral authority was shown up for the sham that it was.

If these people had grown up without the smothering effect of the catholic church, they would still have found a way to help their fellow people. If the good and committed nuns and priests and lay religious who have supported charitable works and organisations hadn’t joined the church, I think they would still have found a way to help their communities and neighbours.

To me, the proof of that is in the huge amount of charities that exist in Ireland without religious support. People will find a way to help others. If they’ve been brought up in the church, they’ll use the church, if they have been brought up free of the church, they’ll still help others. It’s not that the church has created these, or caused them to be created, it’s that the people who wanted to help used the channels they know best to help. For some, that’s the church.

Remove the church, and the good people are still there, possibly with a stronger moral mandate because they’re not associated with a church that has horribly abused it’s position in society around the world for so long.

Im sorry Joe
Do you really think that the catholic church has a monopoly on charity?
Do you think that if the catholic church disappeared every charity in Ireland would just go away? Im sorry but that is plain wrong and rather naive

Or these organisations could secularise? Anti-catholic sentiment is all part of the cut and thrust of any pluralist society. No harm. All good stuff Joe…

David, we heard that same line 10-15 years ago “Wouldnt happen now”, and then we find out about more abuse cases right up until 5 years ago. Unfortunately, the abuse only ever gets highlighted, when the kids are older and more confident to speak out. So, please understand everyones scepticism at your optimism.

most people? on what are you basing that assertion? most people i know wouldnt let their children any where near a priest unless there are many witnesses

There’s never certainty in anything but the chances of these incidents occurring has radically reduced over the past few decades. No doubt about that. Even if they did happen, chances of getting caught are hugely increased as well. Didn’t say there was no need for what’s proposed but very late considering most of the change in attitude has already happened.

@ David Higgins, That’s because the chances of getting caught and punished have increased no cause of a newfound piety

*not becase

@Jenn – What qualifies you to make that statement?

Problem is sophie that the church themselves have been very slow to admit they were wrong, they still haven’t actually said the word ‘sorry.’ When the church can actually take responsibility and not try to wriggle out of it at every opportunity then they will have begun to change.

Nobody blames the members Joe. That was the group that was victimized by the organization. It would be helpful if they’d stop paying their salaries, however.

When people speak of the RCC they generally mean the institution rather than it’s individual members. Those who actually do try to live by the teachings of Jesus would do well to ask themselves how much admiration Jesus would have for such a corrupt institution – one that continues to discriminate against half the worlds population and even aside from abuse is as we speak trying to undermine the provision of basic contraception services wherever it holds sway including even in a first world country like the US. There are other more tolerant and egalitarian religions which adapt to contemporary society and people who need religion in their lives might think about how wise it is to continue to prop up the RCC.

Very well put Sandra

Its individual members have sat in pews for generations turning a blind eye while their leadership raped and tortured women and children. And lest we forget, it wasn’t just the State, “cruelty men” or religious orders confining women and children in institutions and Magdalene Laundries: it was their families. A few hundred members? How about the RCC brainwashed generation upon generation of Irish citizens into incarcerating their own, then continued (and continue today) to support this filthy, evil and corrupt institution. It’s about like accompanying your friend to the local shop and standing by while he robs and shoots the shop clerk, then attempting to say you had nothing to do with it. Then why didn’t you stop it? It’s doesn’t pass the smell test. You can be a Christian and follow the precepts of Jesus — you don’t have to be a baptised, tithing member of the RCC. If you choose to follow evil, evil will follow you. If you are guiltless, no worries: you’ll have no problems on judgment day. But don’t try to make excuses for the crippled organisation to which you decided to belong.

Joe, if you want to stand with these child abusers I will happily condemn you. The abject failures of ” a few hundred members” has been compounded by the cover-up perpetuated by the rest, including the so called innocent church goer. I was baptised as a child and as an adult I have resigned from this evil empire, as I could not in good conscience allow this criminal organisation to claim to represent me in any way. Until your catholic church earns respect, it will get none. So tough, if you are uncomfortable with being in a gang of peadophiles. It’s your choice.

@Joe i do blame any members who are not actively demanding full disclosure and accountability, as long as you put 1 cent a year into a church platter you are contributing to the continuation of the institutionalised aiding and abetting of child rapists, so when i blame the church for hiding rapists (which they did) i am not only blaming the hierarchy but all and any member who either (a) tolerate or (b) contribute to this criminal institution. Had the church (both clergy and congregation) acted appropriately then i would not blame anyone but the ‘few hundred’ bad members, but they colluded to put their own good name before the welfare of innocent children, i am extremely angry with people like you Joe who refuse to take off the blinkers. No doubt you will be outraged but i hold you as equally responsible as anyone else that continues in the state of denial.

Joe, of that million how many actually go to church? How many are elderly? The church will fade and all but die out in a generation and the ignorance and arrogance of the church’s leadership are to blame

The R.C. church have been responsible for demonising themselves, Joe. The ordinary members of the church have been duped. People who support the Vatican, are by default also supporting a corrupt and unjust organisation. An organisation that has been responsible for torturing and burning hundreds of thousands of innocent people over the centuries (so-called “heretics” – the Inquisition). An organisation that has a deep contempt for women, by excluding them from ordination within the church, and who have the audacity to make insane rules that ban women’s self-determination and human right to control their own fertility. An organisation that has tortured, raped and killed thousands of children, all over the world. An organisation that has unjustly imprisoned innocent single mothers against their will, in the Magdalene Laundries, resulting in a large number of them being abused and beaten to death, with some of them going insane from grief after their babies were stolen. An organisation that pretends to follow the teachings of Jesus (“Take all that you have and give to the poor, and come follow me”) … instead the popes, cardinals and bishops live in luxury, dressed in silk and gold ostentatious garments. The Vatican, full to the brim of priceless works of art, gold, silver, marble palaces and churches, and they own acres of land everywhere. The corrupt Vatican Bank, worth trillions. Is this behaviour what Jesus meant his “servants” or followers to do? An organisation where one of their popes (John Paul 1st) died in suspicious circumstances in 1979 (poison?) because he refused to toe the line, and was intent on revealing, the next morning, the list of corrupt officials who were to be fired, and was about to reveal the corrupt practices in the Vatican Bank. Shame on this organisation, it has nothing to do with Jesus, or Christianity. And those who support it, are supporting evil. “All it takes for evil to triumph in the world, is for good people to stand idly by and do nothing” (Edmund Burke).

I think if I were an eleven year old alter boy or any other child or adult of any age being raped by one of those revolting creatures I would be happy to blame anybody and everybody who fuelled this organization into its position of power whether it be by donations or voluntary work or at present by giving them power by sending my child to one of their schools where there was an option not to. Why would I not be obliged to take the blame. If you are a shareholder in a company and it is fined for mismanagement you suffer through your dividend. Well as the Catholic church is so arrogant as not to pay its shareholders any dividen out of its profits the shareholder must take the blame by standing up and being counted for being party to the misdemeanors.