That’s so true … Democracy long dead

Too true

And of the people weren’t the idiots their Government believes them to be, they would reject it the second time also, and the third, and the fourth…alas, I suspect the Government and the EU have no fear of the Irish

the country is fucked the only people dat dont ever av to worry which way the country goes is the goverment because either way they will get paid

That’s true, Michael Kirwan. That’s why I keep telling to scrap politicians’ salaries altogether. Only limited expenses.

That removes the monetary incentive for careerist politicians (namely FG, FF, Labour) to get into government and forget about constituent representation, election promises, and basic human empathy.

Seriously? The above comment got thumbed down? How can anyone seriously disagree that an incentive for becoming a politician is among others, money? sheesh…

Joost, you are showing your ignorance. Members of the House of Commons didn’t get paid for many years and it led to a ridiculous situation where only the supremely wealthy could afford to be politicians.

Well then we vote no again until they realise we have had enough

Thats why we need Term Limits

Tom Neville, Did you get the part where I mentioned expenses?

If that doesn’t work, at least pay TD’s 15 euro an hour or thereabouts. In any case the amount they’re getting paid now is disproportionate and ludicrous, all while jumping up and down shouting at us to “share the weight”, “be patriotic”, “work together”, “cut back” to fix the economy.

Daithi, smaller term limits, I’d welcome, but they won’t fix the problem that many politicians are overly motivated by their salaries.

Unfortunately our own government are using Europe and FF to blame everything that happens on. Won’t always make it true.

Baa, baa, black sheep,
Have you any wool?
Yes sir, yes sir,
Three bags full.
One for the master,
One for the dame,
And one for the little Irish boy
Who lives down the lane.

I’m awaiting your proof.

Never say yes the first time! Lets hold out and screw them for the best deal we can get (ie get them to take THEIR debts back from our shoulders). Then perhaps we’ll consider it.

Both Cameron and Greece tried playing chicken with Merkel recently. Got them nowhere.

When you make a fient it needs to be real. The fient being a real attack gives you the distraction and time needed to make your intended maneuver. We are always playing a defensive game when we need to go on the offensive. Go in to coupe des gorges but cut the achilles tendon. Start thinking ahead and stop playing catch up

He does, he thinks anyone who disagrees with what he says is one. Of course he’s not great at backing up anything says so he might wanna look in the mirror.

Sheep, everywhere…argggghh!!!!!

See below EU Gary. Although its pointless because every-time anyone backs up their statements or gives you proof, you dismiss it and go off on a tangent like your political heroes. That said, I enjoy you, you are like nobody I have ever met before…I like eccentrics, maybe we could be friends?

I think you mean I don’t lie down even under the barrage of spam… sorry text… you dish out. I admire your effort but I can’t admire you are pushing your agenda and you can’t back up what you say. You know I think you actually believe what you say even if it’s wrong. We have some very important decisions to make coming up and the last thing we need is people not getting the facts.

oh and magic unless I’m missing something the only thing you’ve attempted to back up with links was the figures for our bank debts, which include the German banks in the IFSC. Money which we don’t owe and will never owe, thus making the figures meaningless. Other than that you’ve just spammed a load more text to agree with the first load of text, all posted and greed with by you.

Gary, if he’s pushing an agenda, so are you, and so is everyone. “Agenda” is meaningless.

As to him not backing up his facts, I’d have to agree with you.

I have no agenda. I have seen how good the EU has been for this country. I also appreciate that we are the EU as much as anyone is. So what I’m asking for is if people want to rubbish the EU then prove what they claim. What I’ve seen is long on rants and opinion and very very short on any evidence for it. Seriously people don’t just swallow any old bullshit, ask for where the info came from.

What part of his Eurostat source do you not understand? I have googled it and come up with the same figures, even from a discussion in the Dail. Gary your rants are worse than his, all of your rubbish is just EU propaganda and you can not prove any of it. You were here talking crap about no loss of Sovereignty recently and asking people to prove this was happening or that we were edging towards a Fiscal Union…this while all the evidence you needed was here daily in TheJournal articles, and every day on every paper and radio station in Ireland.

Very good. Sure the right wingers motto is “early to bed, early to rise……” Even on Vinny B the blue shirts have to leave early. They’re not able for the all-nighters.

I dunno maybe you could just read the proposal first?

This blog post echo’s my perception of what’s going on:

http://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2011/12/09/at-the-end-of-the-day-112/

This referendum question isn’t about leaving the EU anyway, it’s about modifying the treaty, which I don’t believe should be allowed. They’re not sticking to the rules as is, there’s no way I’d vote to hand over any more power looking at how they’re handling the current situation. I used to think we’d be better off giving power to a centralised European government, but the way their “handling” this crisis is crazy.
And there are plenty of EU countries who don’t have the Euro. Does leaving fiscal union automatically mean leaving the EU too?

Fuck the euro. Excuse my language here, but I feel I need to drive the point that the notion is somehow that we “OWE” something to Europe and the euro. We don’t. They have subsidised us in the nineties, and taken more of that back with the forced bailouts and austerities we have to meet under the so-called guiding hand of the ECB.

The euro is inconvenient to Ireland. It’s useless and even detrimental to our wellbeing. Considering the only realistic alternative is printing our own currency, and giving there would NOT be any diplomatically detrimental outcome from that (trade embargoes, for example), I’d say go for it.

Small communities have already started to develop independent currencies and barter systems anyway.

Joost your ignorance is truly outstanding. Bartering died out on any practical level hundreds of years ago. A few well intentioned attempts have been little more than side shows running in tandem with fiat currencies. Attempts at local currencies have been farcical. If the punt were introduced wealth would leave the country even faster. The only way to keep it here would be to have mad interest rates. Have you ever read an economics book or any book in your life?

Tom, did I say I supported bartering and local currencies? I’m making a factual observation of the appearance of these things. I’ve bartered all my life and frankly, it’s extremely effective. I doubt it will ever become a national system, as it’s difficult to control and set standards. But on a local scale, especially in rural areas, it’s a nice solution to the problems recession has caused. You may not have the money to pay the plumber, but you can trade your skills in fixing cars for his or her abilities/products.

AG is a woman, Máire Whelan. She’s sound as a punt núa! Deffo going to be a referendum. She certainly has more balls than Enda.

Because YOUR opinion is, of course, always the correct one, yes.

You speak truth.

Kevin

We received 57 billion in 37 years, most of which went to farmers and infrastructure

We have lost our Sovereignty
We have lost our Independence
We have lost up to 87% of our laws
We have lost an estimated 200 billion worth of fishing waters (That is what other countries gain now from our waters)
We have lost our gas fields, we now have to export our gas and then but it back again
We have repaid the 57 billion and more in taxes to the EU in the past 37 years

Im so so sick of hearing/reading propaganda and lies about how wonderful the EU has been to Ireland…its beyond thick

In case you haven’t noticed, Kevin, we’ve gotten less out of Europe than we’ve paid for it. If it wasn’t for the EU, we’d be out of the recession by now.

If we weren’t in the Euro we would not have had a property bubble in the first place.
Like Spain, the interest rates for Ireland were inappropriate and drove the boom.
The opposite will happen when ever we begin to emerge from recession. Core nations will require higher rates to regulate growth which will damage growth in the periphery nations.

Magic Kelly; Lost our own laws? Some laws, perhaps, we would like to keep but all in all most of the law changes introduced by Europe have been very significant for Ireland and benefit many. The EU seem to keep things in check while previous Irish governments didn’t make an effort as much.

Sure, we lost our sovereignty and independence partly. But would you not think that it was for the greater good? Changes introduced to tighten how we run our country and how we introduce our budgets may very well be the move that avoids such recessions in the future. Imagine if we left/didn’t join the EU. Do you think Ireland would have had the boom that it had? Do you think the many new laws introduced benefiting the Irish people would have been introduced? Do you think the infrastructure improvements would have been carried out – not just roads, but water and broadband.

Its not perfect, but jesus I for one give the EU a thumbs up on what it did for Ireland. Obviously I don’t want to hand it all over which is why I hope that we simply don’t allow ourselves to be walked all over and hand over independence and sovereignty without actually benefiting us.

Joost Bos; Really? How? I really don’t see how. Sinn Fein are suggesting we leave the EU for years, and want us to refuse the money being used to pull us out of our recovery. How exactly, without money from the EU, would we survive without inflicting years of pain and hardship on the Irish people? Nevermind the fecking students, the state wont be paying out any benefits to the unemployed, the disabled, the elderly, etc. and will be selling parts of our state to bring in money to pay away our debts.

“Do you think Ireland would have had the boom that it had?”

Yes, the reason for our ‘boom’ was because of our low corporation tax, something the EU have fought against every step of the way, even going to the courts against it. Our biggest trading partners have always been the UK and USA, not the EU.

We have been in the EU for 37 years, we have been in recession for 27 of those 37 years!

Kevin, read my argument again. I do not oppose the EU, I think it’s a good idea to have political, geographical and limited economic union, but once that power becomes centralised, which is happening now, it’s up to us to decentralise it (and thus revert it back to the hands of the people, broadly), or to not partake in it at all.

I’d prefer to change the system, of course, but I don’t see much chance in that. I’d propose moving out of the eurozone and re-establishing the punt as currency. We’d still have open trade with Europe, but will not be directly controlled by the ECB and the Franco-Germanic alliance.

Broadband? We have the worst Broadband in Europe, one of the worst in the Western World. Water? We live in the wettest country on earth, the water system hasn’t been upgraded in 80 years, thus why our last few winters have caused such bother.

57 billion gained from EU membership in 37 years…the actual figures of the propaganda

Of that 57 billion, farmers and the agricultural sector benefited most, and roads

200 Billion fishing waters (how much other countries currently take from our waters)
50 billion of gas exported (we then have to buy it back)
Up to 90 billion to be paid to European banks, ordered by the EU
Loss of 87% of our laws
Loss of Sovereignty
Loss of Independence

Unlike Joosty, I completely oppose the EU in its current form. However I am all for the original concept of having a common trading area, a concept that has long been depleted

We have lost 87% of our laws?????? And 82% of statistics are made up.

Magic Kelly, I also oppose the EU in its current form. I do not oppose the IDEA of a European Union, as long as it is limited economically, and is decentralised, organised from the bottom up instead of the top down, and non-military.

Ah Gary Clowry, you little EU brainwashed rascal you Gary, or as I affectionately like to call you..’My Migraine’.

I don’t pay any attention to studies and figures paid by those with vested interest. One well documented EUROSTAT study (You were close to orgasm after reading those words weren’t you?) Ill give you double the pleasure EUROSTAT (easy tiger) study dates back to 2004, the 2004 estimates of the catch by the Irish fleet in waters around the Irish coast was that it amounted to just 15% of the total catch. Within the area under your beloved EU jurisdiction it was only 28%. In the same year it was estimated by the Marine Institute that the value of the catch in surrounding waters was €800 million of which €460 million was taken in the EU zone. EUROSTAT statistics (YOu know, your Gods who never lie Gary) place the accumulated processed value of fish taken in Irish waters between 1974 and 2004 at around, yes you guessed it, €200 billion. That is four times the value of the total transfer funds we received from the EU, mainly in CAP and structural funding, over the same period.

Had our government been leaders and our electorate not sheep like you, our fisheries been properly managed and developed under domestic control, they ‘might’ have become a valuable resource that could have played a vital role in the economic development of the country. Instead of t=giving away our natural assets, I am sure you would agree we should have kept them. Yet, I do not believe the EU for this anymore than I blame the idiotic government of the day. Instead we squandered what we had and a lot would argue that EU policy is actually deliberately designed to reduce the Irish fishing sector to insignificance, as it is now, thus making it easier for the larger chaps in your beloved Federal state to take over
.
What sickens me even more is the control Brussels has over our puppet ministers, this theft continues to be reinforced by the actions of the Irish State (when we had one before Lisbon). Our elected guardians (The Irish ones Gary, because we didn’t elect our EU overlords) have actually changed the Criminal Justice Act and the Sea Fisheries Act which, which in effect, criminalised our own Irish fishermen in a manner not applied to any other economic sector, anywhere!

This all pales into significance when I take into account the level of illegal fishing taking place in our waters. There is real independent ‘scientific’ (They would not be EU guys Gary) anecdotal evidence to suggest that this is as much as one third of the value of the entire legal catch in Irish waters, but in my lay man opinion that could be a gross under estimation. The reason why I am guessing is because of the laughingly inadequate policing of our waters and foreign vessels that wander in at will, specifically Spanish ones of late. So, having said all that Gary, I recalculate by estimate upwards to 300 Billion euros worth of Irish fishing waters lost to the EU.

Now, when you have digested that you can address how we have benefited from EU membership, considering that we have received a grand total of 57 billion euros from them in 37 years. 57 billion, our late minister of finance was ordered by your EU Gods to guarantee that to the banks in one day alone!!! Of those 37 years of EU membership we were in recession for 27 years, yes…27 years of recession in the wonderful EU Of the 10 years we weren’t in recession Gary, it was due to our low corporation tax, you know…the one the EU have kept trying to destroy!

So go ‘step by step’ for me with your proof that the perceived benefits of EU membership outweighs the negative, can’t wait. My little one man propaganda machine!

Typos due to a mixture of dyslexia, poor education, lack of paternal love, cheap net book, Tesco wine and the uncontrollable nodding of my head to Bruce Springsteen whilst typing. Sorry.

Magic you sound sexy..Dont mind Gary, he hasnt a clue

I am too sexy for this conversation, too sexy for this conversation by far!

Ah magic magic magic. See what did there, you typed a load of text saying how you’re right. While I linked to the site used worldwide for getting fisheries numbers. So I’m still waiting for these reports of yours.

Gary you sound like Sarcozy early. When you need to answer someone and you cant use your propaganda you are completely lost. You sound like TV presenter or actor without script now, now you are lost eu puppy dog :P

I see you’re suffering from “stockholm syndrome”.

What is it about anti-EU people that they resort to name calling almost right off the bat. I’ve been called more names on the Journal in the last few days than I have in years anywhere else. I want facts not people’s bullshit anti-EU rhetoric.
Backing up your opinion with more of your opinion is not actually proving any point, other than you love the sound of yourself.

“Now, when you have digested that you can address how we have benefited from EU membership, considering that we have received a grand total of 57 billion euros from them in 37 years. 57 billion, our late minister of finance was ordered by your EU Gods to guarantee that to the banks in one day alone!!! Of those 37 years of EU membership we were in recession for 27 years, yes…27 years of recession in the wonderful EU Of the 10 years we weren’t in recession Gary, it was due to our low corporation tax, you know…the one the EU have kept trying to destroy!
So go ‘step by step’ for me with your proof that the perceived benefits of EU membership outweighs the negative, can’t wait. My little one man propaganda machine!”

Answer the persons question Gary, like you say “put up or shut up” :Phttp://www.thejournal.ie/utils/facebook_oauth.php?oauth_start=1&display=popup&scope=&callback=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thejournal.ie%2Futils%2Ffacebook_oauth.php%3Foauth_complete%3D1

Okay I’ll try to make this simple. Magic said some things, then said some more things to support the first things he said. At no point has he shown where he got this info from, at no point has he shown it’s anything other than his opinion. You’ll forgive me but before I accept the claims from some random bloke on the internet I’ll expect to see their proof. The onus is on those making claims to support those claims. The problem, it’s seems to me, is he can’t.
Genuinely though if he can prove something I’ll accept that and change my view. Not looking too likely though.

I’ve been reading the comments here. I clearly see that Magic listed a Eurostat study with regards to fishing waters etc as his source, I’ve just Goggled it…simple to understand, as are your stats and sources. I don’t need to google the fact that Ireland has been in recession for 27 of 37 yrs in the EU, we all know that, we lived through it. The 57 billion that we received in 37 yrs is well documented also, and all over the net from government sources. I have also read everything you wrote Gary, you are indeed correct in that much of the Lisbon Treaty has yet to be realised in Magic s list, but you can not prove that your list will remain the same either. From what I have read in all of the treaties, much of your list is allowed for by law, and a quick search on Goggle shows many huge leaps in many of these points. I see you both as ‘random blokes’ both of you are using second hand information, both listed your sources, both with differing opinions. What I do not see Gary is you answering any questions directed towards you. If you were so well versed in the EU as you like to portray, surely you could answer very simple questions.

Ive seen 4 people ask you this simple question, Ill copy and paste it, Ill ask you again.

“Now, when you have digested that you can address how we have benefited from EU membership, considering that we have received a grand total of 57 billion euros from them in 37 years. 57 billion, our late minister of finance was ordered by your EU Gods to guarantee that to the banks in one day alone!!! Of those 37 years of EU membership we were in recession for 27 years, yes…27 years of recession in the wonderful EU Of the 10 years we weren’t in recession Gary, it was due to our low corporation tax, you know…the one the EU have kept trying to destroy! So go ‘step by step’ for me with your proof that the perceived benefits of EU membership outweighs the negative, can’t wait. My little one man propaganda machine!”

Replying each time, ignoring questions, reading of a EU hymn sheet with a condescending tone just makes you look ridiculous and arrogant. If you do not, or can not answer what is asked of you just go away because you are very annoying, to a lot of people. I might add that it isn’t your opinions that are annoying, it is your ignorance and lack of any ability to demonstrate that you understand anything other than what you can repeat from any of our EU loiving politicians. Gary, I hear them every day, why would I want to hear you repeating what they have been bullshi**ing about for years?

Put up or shut up, its painful for me also to read your EU copy and paste propaganda also

@Paul Kealy. He’s not going to answer you. It’s Magic he likes to argue with. Who could blame him…

They will give you their word on job creation and anything else they think you might fall for but they will have no intention of delivering anything!

Duh…that will be the sweetener for complete loss of sovereignty, especially for sheep like you

Good man Magic. No prostitution in catholic Ireland. :D

Sure, Ireland’s the new Lebensraum, after all!

We’re always told about how catastrophic things would be if we dont do what we’re told, but it always turns out to be a lot of ‘smokes and mirrors’ :-)

There is no mechamism to force us to leave the Euro.

In many ways this agreement is just forcing governments to actually enforce the provisions agreed on when the Euro was first made. There have always been penalties for non-compliance. It’s just that they have been systematically ignored. I’m interested in how it would actually work. There are almost no governments in Europe, Germany included, that are actually even close to compliance. Ireland won’t be until 2015 at a very optimistic level. Will the penalties be enforced from the get-go or will there be a waiting period to allow governments to get their policies in line? Both are risky but for different reasons. The bottom line is, if we are going to have a common currency we should have a fixed set of rules for it. The current situation of everyone doing completely their own thing is grand, but not if we want to have a common currency.

“Acquired helplessness: a side effect of large organisations: an impression one could not survive outside them.” Alain de Botton

Nothing bad will happen if we revert to the Punt. In fact, by printing our own money we will be, to and extent, econopolitically independent from the European banks. In my opinion, if this means having the meddling of the troika out of this country, I’ll support it. Even now there are local currencies being printed in Greece, and even some villages in Ireland. Isolationism has never looked so grand.

There will be threats, there will be promises of a stable Europe. The usual bullshit from a banking system that has corrupted our sovereign nations. With merkozy and Mario and a few others twisting arms left right and center this deal will end the economic battle for the moment but it will not end the economic war. Until they have full control over most economic input and output in every country in the eurozone the banks that created this mess will be the ones pulling the strings. Debt is unsustainable for future trading the end of the euro is nigh.

Great quote Ciaran.
You’ve hit the nail on the head.

@joost

“Nothing bad will happen if we revert to the Punt”

Possibly the stupidest statement I have read here recently.

@Paul Kealy well said. Our banking system won’t collapse, our savings will be preserved, inflation will remain stable, interest rates of our ‘tracker’ mortgages will stay at a cosy 1% – we probably won’t even notice the changes, bring it on and lets party like it was 1999!

*The minimum wage will be reduced, rember the EU will soon have 100% control over our budgets
*Ireland will be forced to engage in military action in the future, as the Lisbon Treaty states
*We have lost our neutrality
*IIt is almost a European Super-State
*Abortion will be legal, the Government have been asked to prepare a report for the EU
*Gay marriage will be made legal, civil partnerships are now legal
*Euthanasia would be made legal…No idea if that will happen
*The death penalty would be made legal….I doubt it
*The guarantees were not legally binding and would be renaged on…They already have been
*Michael O’Leary wants cheaper labour and assumes eventual harmonisation of minimum wage
*During the canmpaign polls were rigged to make it look like the yes side were ahead…seems so
*Turkey would be allowed to join the EU…They have been told they will join the EU
*The treaty made EU law superior to Irish law (it already was and has been since 1973)..The Lisbon treaty gave the European Constitution precedence over all nation laws and constitutions
*We would lose the right to referendums…We have, there is now a 50/50 chance we will have another
*Our constitution would be null and void…It is
*Healthcare and education would be privatised…Not sure that would be so bad
*We would be forced to increase military spending…No idea
*The charter of human rights would allow the EU to take the homes, assets and children of people with mild intellectual disabilities and alcoholics…Never heard of that, you are making that up
*We would lose our veto in all areas….We have lost out veto, in all areas
*A new EU army would be created and which would conscript Irish people..It is being created http://europeandefence.blogspot.com/2010/07/germany-first-steps-towards-european.html
*Tony Blair would become the EU president..Instead we have an unelected EU President

@MagicKelly
You may not be aware but we ask people in our comments community not to repeat posts or to spam comments sections with the same link repeatedly. That is why I have removed your repeat post above. Our comments policy is here if you want to look at it: http://www.thejournal.ie/comments-policy/
Thanks, Susan, Editor, TheJournal.ie

Susan, that was very harsh, it just so happens to be my favourite nursery rhyme :(

Magic you just said a load of stuff there without any backup whatsoever. You might want to believe that stuff is happening but it’s in your head. Of course I’ll change my tune if have proof for any of it, I’m silly that way I like reality.

Gary…I don’t refer to people who disagree with me as sheep. I admire and respect free thinking.

I call people like you sheep. People who do not question anything, just swallow propaganda and believe everything those in power or the media dictate to them. You demonstrate this because everything you write is almost a word by word copy of everything ever uttered by any pro EU politician or EU puppet. I know you idolise the EU, the idea of Federal state, have no sense of identity or patriotism towards Ireland or Sovereignty… that’s Ok too, really! Its just the fact that you do not think for yourself, yeah, thats what irritates me and so many others here about you. You have been completely brainwashed by a lifetime of EU and political propaganda. That terrifies me, how many more of you still exist even…you are an endangered species yet you are still apparently unrepentant, scary (

And some name calling without any proof. Either you have proof for those lovely long posts you make or you don’t. Put up or shut up.

Clownery

“Put up or shut up”… so thats where ur at, eh?
Jasus ur an agressive wee lad arent ya.

Should give ur own hole a rest for a bit

And more name calling, who woulda thunk it.

The Germans were first to break the Maastricht rules – which are essentially exactly the same rules being proposed today, just without the automatic sanctions.

The Germans have already broken their rules. Nothing to do with WWII (we can’t mention the war) – just a fact.

Have you ever jumped fences or eaten grass?

I expected nothing less of a Fianna Failure supporter, Fiachra.

Someone call for the white coats… Fiachra’s senility seems to have taken a turn for the worse. Lock him up with Biffo & co would yis?

Fiachra you’re wasting your time. There’s an anti-EU back slapping club in here. Our uber nationalists smell blood in the water and have found a place where they can make all sorts of claims without having to actually prove any of them.

Two world wars and the (our) Troubles teach us that democratic accountability and respect for national and cultural identity is essential for peace. Apply the same to the nations and people’s of Europe.

It’s not a question for the specialists, it’s very simple. The euro has benifited us for a while now, but now it doesn’t work for us anymore, it’s time to scrap it. Ireland needs to print its own money to ensure future and present stability. Basically, revert to the punt. This isn’t economic isolation. The UK and several other EU countries are not in the eurozone and yet enjoy almost similar levels of trade, this is because the euro served to be a convenience. It’s now an inconvenience, so it’s practically irrelevant. Also, are you in favour of Ireland losing once more, less of its sovereignty to make decisions? Who are these specialists anyway? Have you met them? Do you know them? Do you trust their integrity? I heard specialists and “experts” fabricated the budget, if that’s so, I don’t want to live on thsi planet anymore.

Instead of thumbing me down, I’d invite people to provide based counterarguments explaining your disagreement, please.

I have thumbed up every one of your comments Joosty, you are wise grasshopper

@Joost Bos

What do you mean “print it’s own money”? How you can make anyone to trust into the new irish currency? These days only Germany and France can do something like that: If Ireland will print it’s own money – nominals would be in negative numbetrs. -1 pound, -5 pounds, -20 pounds, etc.

angryzes, As if that’s not a problem with the euro already? It isn’t an issue of currency as much as an issue of economic stability. Nobody trusts the Irish euro anyway, if we’re talking about foreign investment and trade. I might be in favour of the euro if it were governed differently. Currently, it is decided on a very dictatorial manner by the unelected ECB and leaders of the most powerful eurozone countries, especially Germany, France and the Netherlands.

The problem is that currencies ought to serve us. They are merely mutually agreed symbols that are metaphors of value for real goods and services. They are convenient. But when we have to suffer simply to uphold a currency, it’s time to scrap it.

“Specialists” have served us all so well thus far, haven’t they? Great world we live in.

Are you for real? Do you honestly think the politicians in Europe are somehow more honest and less corrupt than those in Dublin? Don’t make me laugh. A gigantic salary is enough incentive to be a careerist politician with no sense of empathy or representation of constituents.

I agree with you Ken that our national governments have been extremely poor.
However, have you seen the mess the EU leadersship has made of this crisis. They still haven’t resolved the crisis.
Germanys finances are going to be in a worst state than ours when they refinance, which they will have to.

Apologies: Germany needs to refinance it’s banks.
http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/forget-europe…-germany’s-got-its-own-problems-deal

Oh please stop confusing the issues. This referendum is NOT a question of leaving the EU. It is a question of who has financial sovereignty. let’s be quite clear, voting no does not mean leaving the EU.

There is a desperate and very dangerous lack of democracy within the EU, the latest examples being how the people of Greece and Italy were denied the democratic right to appoint their own government. Waken up and be clear about the real issues.

If we deny democratic accountability and responsibility it is only a matter of time until severe dictatorial abuse results and it then becomes inevitable that the people must seize control to restore democracy. The EU is not immune from such dynamics.

Brilliant idea. Let’s centralise all the power over OUR LIVES to people hundreds of miles away, who we don’t know and don’t care about, and who don’t know or care about us. Great idea. Wonderful. Let’s pay away the last bit of freedom we have.

LET US TAKE DECISIONS. Jesus, why does everyone seem to stick their heads in the sand and say, “Ah sure let them sort it out, they know how” and act surprised and shocked when they fuck it up completely, like the FG/Labour govt. is doing now?

How the hell can it explain what this treaty is all about where the treaty doesn’t even exist yet. Jebus wept.

How the hell can it explain what this treaty is all about where the treaty doesn’t even exist yet. Jebus wept.

Wrong.
Voting no would give us more leverage to reduce the unfair bailout terms, if we had a leader with courage and not neck deep in collusion with Mercozy, Von rompey and Barosso via the EPP party then we would not be talking about a referendum, we would be applauding Kenny for his steely nerve and his successful bargaining.
As it stands Kenny is willing to sacrifice more and more of our autonomy with absolutely nothing in return.

He can waffle on about corporation tax being protected, but for how long?
We secede to the EU you can bet your life than the ink will not be dry when it will come up for more scrutinizing