The right to use offensive and insulting language is causing people to leave the teaching profession in Ireland. Is this not a just clash of rights issue.

If the same happened to Christians centuries ago then they may have been up in arms…but not now as the western world has embraced science, education and freedom.
The muslim world has not. The still feverantly believe in the fairy tales and are not educated enough to question it. They are kept in line with fear and intimidation and you can be sure all these protests are well organised by the leaders who know exactly what they are at and use the mob for their own purposes.

Life of Brian? We don’t have to go into ancient history to find examples of our own sensitivities. Modern Muslims are no less extreme than modern Christians.

Oh, yeah, provocative religious defamations never got Christians rioting and killing police… *cough*northernireland*cough*

@ Peter O`Brien, Don`t recall Christian mobs rioting or killing diplomats over the Life of Brian or putting fatwas on Authors in modern times.

Peter Nolan completely missing the pint about the Troubles… Do you honestly think 30 years of violence was about whether you take Communion or not on a Sunday morning?

The north is a lot more complicated than that and was not as the result of supposed offensive films/magazines which is what the poll relates to

In fairness when The Life of Brian came out people didn’t exactly blow up and kill innocent people. Muslims are just too fundamentalist if when they are criticised they bomb those who did it.

@ Peter Nolan, you should see a doctor about that cough, it`s affecting your reasoning.

Spot on Ciaran. They need to go through what western Europe went through. About 300 years out of date.

..I’m a 17 Percenter…

Yer man’s a “17percenter”

Couldn’t agree more Andrea. I am Catholic too (but haven’t been at mass in ages ) but I pray daily in my own way and I consider myself a Christian but i am not a fanatic or advocate violence toward atheists or people who criticise the church (and by god do they deserve it). Its a free world. Loads of people condemn the catholic church for wrongs of the past and rightly so and there is plenty satirical comedy and film mocking Christianity but i accept it as living in a democracy. We all are entitled to believe in what we choose but nobody had the right to terrorise any group and force their beliefs on them or kill them for not believing in their God including myself.

I have a fairly live-and-let-live attitude towards religion (to a reasonable degree) and I agree with most of what you said but I thought you completely contradicted yourself with the “and by god do they deserve it” line. Nobody deserves the threat of violence if they themselves are non-violent. If I criticise a religion it’s because it needs to be criticised (e.g. it’s trying to force its morals or beliefs on me or commits violent or hurtful acts in the name of the religion), otherwise I don’t really care what others believe safe for an occasional philosophical discussion where each party respects the other’s views. Even a militant atheist won’t advocate violence or think religious people deserve the threat of violence.

Especially those bastards- the cheese makers!

…. “Life of Brian” was/clearly remains misunderstood by the masses….’twas in effect taking the P……out of the likes of the bigots on this site….the joke is yer just canna see it….ahahhhaahhhh! “what did the Roman’s ever do fer us!?”….whoops a daisy …. IMHO quite naturally not wishing to be labelled Bigot!

Best comment on here.
We said.

Yea the dreaded Sharia Law. People should educate themselves and look this up. talk about living in the dark ages.

Thank goodness…a voice of reason

Take issue with your “all religion is an outmoded belief System”. As a Christian I believe in God but it is Faith. Maybe you are atheist and that fine but to blankly state that all religion is an outmoded belief system is very arrogant and insulting to the millions of people who practice their faith peacefully and non judgementally every single day. ps regardless I still won’t blow you up because we don’t agree, Its a free country.

Sorry Chris no offence meant – it is after all my belief and we are equally valid. No arrogance meant. I have been told in the past by Christians that they will pray for me and I find that arrogant so I know how you feel. I’m not an Atheist either because I find the totality of stating what can not be proven at the other end of the spectrum a little .Hypocritical
Agnostic? Perhaps Spiritual? Defiantly. I just don’t follow one particular club. Thanks for not blowing up my house you’d be welcome in it any day.

Very well said Eoin.

@Christopher, just because someone believes in something does not mean other people are obliged to take it seriously. Especially omnipotent and yet inconsequential imaginary friends.

*Mohammed* *looks*

There’s been quite a few depictions of Muhammed in Islamic art:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depictions_of_Muhammad
I’m guessing one of the reasons why there hasn’t been such an eruption of rage in Iran is because Iran is Shia and it’s not forbidden in Shia Islam.

The most ironic thing is that depictions of Muhammed are condemned because of idolatry yet they worship a Black Stone which they say fell from heaven. Worshiping that stone is idolatry, no?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Stone

Kinda like Jesus, but with a hat…. or so I’ve been led to believe.

I voted that because somebody else’ religion is none of my business. I wouldn’t mock anybody’s beliefs if theirs didn’t agree with mine, it’s the free world, get on with it.

I voted that because I believe that just because you have the right to say something, doesn’t necessarily mean you should. I don’t go out of my way to offend people.

Austin you got one hell of a poem there. Good point too.

But they are not going out of their way to offend anyone. Think about it, who would you say the target audience of a French satirical magazine is? Certainly not extremist Muslims!

Yes Austin anyone who doesn’t vote the way you want them to must be doing it out of fear.

Yeah, let’s horse a few more democracy bombs and freedom missiles at them! They’ll enjoy that plenty. Libya had a unequalled industrial and civil infrastructure in Africa, until the NATO backed “revolutionaries” blew it all to shit. They live in “medieval cesspit countries” because we’ve bombed them into the dark ages. Simple as. You’d be keen on burning down the US/British embassy if they decided that Ireland needed to bow down to Obama or queen Lizzy….apologies, not “bow down”, I meant to say “enjoy their freedoms”. ‘Nuff said.

That said, in terms of the publishing of the pics : Rights VS Responsibilities. Let’s not hide behind “rights” and then take no responsibility for the consequences. It’s a very cowardly western outlook of which we’re all guilty (myself included)

Will you be off to Syria to fight for Assad now against those evil rebels, Warren?

Because I don’t agree with NATO invading sovereign nations, under dubious pretences, I automatically support dictatorships and religious madmen? I think not, SaintRuth. NATO, and specifically the US, are as evil as Assad. Yet, because they masquerade behind the facade of “freedom/democracy”, we in the west wholeheartedly swallow their propoganda. People are getting murdered by both sides, fact. I’m thankful, on a daily basis, that we in Ireland have thus far remained neutral from a military standpoint in world politics. That said, I wouldn’t be surprised if the US doesn’t constantly pressure us to join them in their illegal, immoral wars around the globe. If our “leaders” cave in to the pressure of the “special friendship”, I can guarantee Irish citizens becoming targets as well. One can only hope for saner minds to prevail.

I know I come across as being a bit on the loony-left side of things, but I’m not (i’ve been called “rethug” amongst other things here on journal.ie). It’s just that I’m sick of the grandstanding, posturing and finger-pointing (usually followed by drone-strikes and “boot on the ground”) of the supposed leaders of the “free world”.

People need to read more. Look between the lines. Stop listening to the PR and Spin. They’re all mocking our intelligence as a society, and we’re happy to let them do it. It’s easier to have a pint and have our brain pumelled by Jersey Shore, than it is to stand for something and try do something. It’s the world we live in.

…oh yes brethren oh yes….in that knowledge why was it done….could it be to take the attention of the world away….while some other world shattering event is to take place….you know….just look at these savages” Iran is making nuclear warheads ….you cant trust them best bom

..in Islam…all humanity was/is/will be born of the faith…how otherwise could it be….with but one deity!?…

…

…Your man’s a 17percenter living in Johor….

They are publishing cartoons, I’ll just repeat that …CARTOONS!

This is not the same as shouting fire in a cinema. If people then choose to murder because of cartoons, then the full responsibility of those actions are with the murderers, not anyone else.

I think it is a deliberate anti Islam thing. Imagine if the Evening Herald ran cartoons depicting Travellers as half Wits and half Human creatures ? Apart from facing the rigours of the law, there would be an uproar from every organisation in the country not to mention riots in the streets. If you poke a dog often enough he will soon turn on you and innocent people will suffer.

Cartoons have been used as weapons of propaganda for centuries. Check out Punch 150 years ago and the cartoons depicting the Irish as uncivilised, ape-like creatures. They helped form British public opinion at the time which was, unlike now, overwhelmingly anti-Irish.

You

You

@Paddy – You say “Cartoons have been used as weapons of propaganda for centuries.”

Cartoons are not weapons. Guns, knives, petrol bombs, hijacked airplanes are weapons.

Chambers dictionary: Weapon (noun) something one can use to get the better of others.
Your ignorance betrays you.
Remember the old saying: Fools names like their faces are often seen in public places.
And, of course, you won’t mind me saying that being so much in favour of all free speech as you are.

@Paddy – “And, of course, you won’t mind me saying that being so much in favour of all free speech as you are.”

Of course not, have at it!

Have you ever read Charlie Hebdo? The majority of the people it takes the piss out of are white, middle aged, Christian men. I’m not sure about it but I don’t remember there being any riots previous issues. Oh yeah, apart from that fire bombing over another one that had something to do with Islam.

I don’t care about the pictures printed, but I do care about people deciding what I can and can’t read. Next step after that is deciding what I can and can’t say. The riots around the world are doing nothing for Islam’s image, especially when you have religious and political figures from some of these countries justifying the reaction.

I don’t like reading certain things that are in the Qur’an. It is offensive in my society and culture to view women as below men in the social order, I don’t like reading a book that advocates slavery in certain passages, or that an unwed couple should be stoned to death because they are sinners. I chose to read the book once and I have chosen to never read it again. It was highly offensive to me and I am sure a lot of other who have read it. It goes against most things that I believe every human has a right to. But I never started a protest or tried to get the book banned….it is their culture and religious way, I will let them implement as they see fit within their own societies. Just once they keep such crap out of mine.

Course we do – or else how will everybody know the cinema is on fire?!

You’re a gas man Tim. An absolute howl.

well if you’re going to come out with tired cliches and pretend it’s profound thinking don’t expect others not to pick holes in it. Under that reasoning, truth is no defence, which is hardly what you would want to argue, is it? We absolutely do have the right to free speech, however irresponsible, as long as we’re prepared to accept the consequences, and don’t fall foul of other prohibitions like libel, slander or incitement to violence, the latter in this case being something of a minefield given the propensity of certain lunatics to go nuts at the drop of a hat.

But in this analogy, wouldn’t Islam be the meanest guy in the bar, and the Quakers in the corner are the 90 year old? I don’t think you could claim that the magazine is picking the softer target.

He is risking his life. How does this make him a troll?

Yeah he’s a real hero isn’t he?

He is Brendan. His life is now at risk from these lunatics. He’s taken it upon himself to show that the Western world will not comply with threats of violence and murder. We should support him. It’s not about insulting Islam, it’s about making sure that our rights are upheld.

Haha oh Kevin, yes its the Western world that need to affirm that they are not being intimidated. Its not like the West has for centuries and continues to this day to invade and interfere in the Muslim world. It really is the west that is the victim here. Get a grip.

Kevin sounds like he’s prepared to take up arms to defend an obnoxious little troll. NATO bombings and murders in Afghanistan and the middle east don’t bother him though.

That magazine pokes fun at people every issue. Last year they took the piss out of the prophet. Then again this week. Why don’t you look up who they took the piss out in between? Mostly people from the evil west. Does the fact that the west carries out evil and unjust acts make it ok for Muslim extremists to do the same? Two wrongs don’t make a right and evil is evil.

Surely it would be ‘Islamophobic” NOT to publish the cartoons, since the reticence would be an expression of fear of Muslims?
Publishing them is, therefore, non-Islamophobic – it’s Philislamic!

Given that the offices of this magazine were firebombed last year, I don’t think it could be argued that the particular “group of people are living peacefully and respectfully within society.”

But the ones committing acts of violence are not living peacefully and respectfully within society and they are the ones we are discusding here. The decent Muslims are the ones calling for calm and take no part in these riots. The others are neanderthals and live in the dark ages. I know a few lovely Muslims and they just roll their eyes about the whole thing.

@Ryan, France has 65 million people, somewhere between 5 and 10% of whom are Muslim. It only takes one person to firebomb an office. I think it can be safely assumed that most of the rest are, in fact, “living peacefully and respectfully within society.”

And most of those Muslims will continue to live peacefully because they’re not lunatics. This is a small, small minority. It’s important that these pictures be published. They’re not over the top or particularly sensationalist and they send the message that violence will not get you what you want.

Hebdo is a current affairs satire mag, and the Muslim riots are the most absurd thing in the news today. I’d say they were almost obliged to cover it. Proper order too. Islam can’t have special protected status over all other value systems, especially when it’s the least deserving of one.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=089_1272037279

JayK, thanks for that link…I was wondering the very same thing myself, i.e. what Rushdie asked of the ‘silent Muslims’. Why are the tolerant, liberal, enlightened majority not more vocal in their condemnation of these flag burning, gun toting murdering fool??? Maybe some Islamic Journal readers could offer an opinion?
I remember when the Omagh bombings occurred, the Irish were quick to express their collective horror and distance themselves from that brand of republicanism. Why not the same with Islam?

it’s all about peace and respect then.

Great points there by Goldie and JayK.

Good point actually. At least, to my knowledge, it hasn’t been used in quite a while though. Our constitution probably could do with a bit of modernisation all right though.

The blasphemy law was brought in by the last government, the one that dares not speak its name.

…this man’s humble opinion precisely ….well put…

…your man’s humble opinion precisely…so well put..

The mag is satirical @Jack, get out a dictionary and look up satire. There has been ‘offensive’ material published about Christianity, Scientology etc. for years without setting fire to publishers, or indeed any buildings. Are you content to allow a small minority use fear to censor what you read? If so shame on you, while you have your dictionary out look up democracy. #Sheep.

People are dead and an embassy destroyed. If the West decides that it’s too risky to reply to that, then it shows that extremists should use violence because it gets them what they want. Then the next time someone does something they don’t like we’ll have more violence because it worked so well the last time.

Well if you can flip a switch and have them not behave like savages and lunatics, all well and good. Until we see change in the mindset of these people, these actions taken for personal gain and attention shouldn’t be encouraged. He is safe in France but somewhere in Yemen, Pakistan or Egypt there’s a French family in fear for their lives tonight because of his selfishness. We simple cant say lets all insult these lunatics when we know they will continue to react as they do. Wanting them to act more humane and rationally wont come any sooner if people continue to poke them for an outburst reaction. They won’t suddenly start laughing at the whole affair and to think that is deluded.

I don’t have the easy answer on how to reform their warped mindset but baiting them certainly isn’t helping things but only affirming westerners higher sense of righteousness when we are purposely stirring sh*t. It’s entirely unjustified as much as their murderous reaction to the West”s jibe at them.
This is all happening in succession of the video released that were clearly meant to insulting Islam and nothing else.
We cant change their actions by continuing to poke at them, Islam is still growing rapidly and extremism is going to grow with it. Why say he SHOULD publish these and in doing knowingly mock and entice these loons if their reaction is known and unwelcome?

not negotiating with terrorists comes to mind.

“not negotiating with terrorists comes to mind.”
Rubbish argument and irrelevant !

This really is a serious question. The article reads “PROTESTS ERUPTED AROUND the world this week over controversial cartoon depictions of Mohammed that appeared in a French satirical publication, Charlie Hebdo.”

I live in New Zealand, maybe that story didn’t make it here. But as far as I’m aware, the protests were for the movie. Can someone please enlighten me?

French satirical magazine printed pictures a few days after the movie from the US

That may be the case but I still can’t find any article in any of the major news outlets linking a protest to those cartoons. This Journal article clearly makes that link send I’d just like to know where they got their information from. Maybe I’m just going mad.

The protests in the first instance are about the movie. The cartoon has sparked feats of more riots. Hope that clears it up.

Cartoons or not, there’s no justification for murder.

@Kevin, never said there was, but in the case of a religion so volatile as Islam, I think they should ease off on the cartoons, especially after the video on youtube!

Appeasement?

I believe that was tried in europe in the middle of last century. Oh now I remember. They tried appeasement with hitler. Didnt work out great

Sorry Wexford Listings but Catholics or Christians for that matter pray as much as they want at all times of the days. Monasteries pray what’s known as the hours and that’s seven times a day but its all irrelevant. You can’t kill people because they don’t believe in your god and thats where fundamentalist Islamic forces must be challenged and stopped.

There’s always one idiot who brings Hitler into every argument! Ironically your point is void because if Hitler and the nazis been censored in the early days they would have never come to power.

I can hardly be called an idiot for comparing the appeasement of one fanaticical group with that of another? But i respect your opinion and freedom of speech and although you have insulted me i will not burn your house down and behead you.

Should i have uses the word Nazi’s instead of Hitler. Doh! How silly of me.

So if you were around in the 1920s you would be defending the rights of the nazi party to make racist cartoons about jews, slavs and gypsies? Good man yourself Karl you’re a real hero.

*Conor

I think your getting the wrong end of the stick there Brendan.

Im saying that the appeasement of a fanatical movement because they create a fear of violence is wrong and solves nothing.

Thats the opposite of being pro nazi me thinks. Are a few satirical cartoons scattered around the world the same as a propoganda campaign to eradicate a race? Definitely not and its a shame you would compare them.

You’re the one defending people’s rights to be racist and bigotted

If you’re saying its a delicate issue brendan then i agree with you.

However i fail to see anything extremely biggotted in this cartoon at all. Fact is if i painted a nice picture of an older middle eastern looking gentleman in robes with his lovely nine year old wife beside him and presented this it would still cause outrage. The description i’ve given matches the Quran pretty accurately and cant be contstrued as biggotted but i would still lose my head for it.

If it was construed as biggotry then its ok to be offended. The point is write me a letter, dont cut off my head. Disproportionate responses to minor offences.

@Brendan

It’s not difficult to offend fundamentalist Muslims.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudanese_teddy_bear_blasphemy_case

I agree there should be reasonable restrictions on hate speech however it is up to the French people to decide their own laws since, as we can see from many of the comments, limits on free speech are a subjective issue.

It’s not racist. Christians are subject to the same sort of ridicule all the time and no one bats an eyelid because the Opus Dei aren’t out there torching embassies. We’re only talking about this because of the actions of Muslim extremists.

This isn’t motivated by the West’s involvement in the Middle East; it’s because a group of lunatics wanted to kill and burn. This just happened to be the most convenient excuse. It’s a little known, poorly produced video on youtube. It’s not like it was in every cinema in the West. These people wanted to be offended so they could justify their murderous urges. They don’t speak for Islam.

“Christians are subject to the same sort of ridicule all the time and no one bats an eyelid.” Ah Kevin your probably too slow to get my point, you see it all depends on the context (look that word up in the dictionary Kevin).

You see Christians wouldn’t bat an eyelid because the vast majority of countries that have a majority Christian population aren’t being occupied by foreign powers. So like I said with the Fr Ted example above, it isn’t a good comparison (look that word up in the dictionary too Kevin).

A better example would be China publishing insulting pictures of Buddha in Tibet- Do you think they’d take it has a joke Kevin? I tell what they would do; they’d burn down the Chinese embassy. And their response would very much be motivated by China’s occupation of Tibet.

Its in context Kevin, these jokes in on them selves are only adding insult to the injury these people have felt for the last 30 years by the West’s attitude towards them.The meddling in their governments which served to only enrich the already powerful and hostility in acquiring their national resources.

I would make similar example of Nationalists response to Orange parades on their streets. I dont condone their actions but I more so do not condone Orange marches on these streets and stopping outside homes of their victims to entice the residents and locals. ‘They are provoking a sensitive matter. I don’t remember people here supporting the right of Orange parades to be allowed down catholic streets under freedom of speech. Its the adding to existing injure which as been inflicted on these people which inflames these people to anger, not the cartoon on it’s own.

Dave, what Chinese embassy? Tibet is an autonomous province of China… And I seriously doubt that Buddhists are going to go on a rampage because of what you describe. In protest, generally they would self-immolate or such rather than hurt another person.

But, anyway, check this out. “Nobody was murdered because of this image” [NSFW]
http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-one-murdered-because-of-this-image,29553/

Now exactly how many Buddhists, Christians, Hindus or Jews have gone on a rampage because of that cartoon? Does any of those aforementioned religions even care?

@Barry

18 Chinese embassies were attacked during the last Tibetan riots in 2008.

The riots weren’t started by cartoons of the Buddha, that was just a hypothetical example.
The riots were started by the arrest of Monks (so in that sense it had a religious beginning).

“And I seriously doubt that Buddhists are going to go on a rampage because of what you describe. In protest, generally they would self-immolate or such rather than hurt another person.”

Complete rubbish. In the 2008 riot, they burnt, looted, rampaged and killed and they were buddhists!!!!!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7311289.stm

Funnily enough Dave, I just read that article twice over and cannot see where it said that the rioters were Buddhist. Maybe you can point it out? Also, what 18 Chinese embassies? Where were they located? Just because monks were arrested doesn’t make it religiously motivated. Using China/Tibet as an analogy here just doesn’t fit. They are worlds apart in situation.

@ Barry

Funnily enough Barry, I just posted that link to back up my argument on the Tibetan riots, I didn’t think I’d have to post a link up saying that the main religion in Tibet is Buddhism, because even a complete numpty knows that!!

Using Tibet as an analogy is inconvenient because it doesn’t suit your argument. It shows that there is a different attitude taken to the population of that country and their religion, probably because they are under occupation by China, so therefore it becomes the poster cause of every liberal going, and the religious leadership of the anti-occupation movement in Tibet is hardly progressive.

The very same liberal will have a problem with the population of the middle east (who are under occupation by the West either directly or through proxy) and their religion; Islam, even though when the Tibetans were provoked they did many of the same things that happened over the cartoon furor, killing Chinese officials, attacking embassies, attacking Chinese policemen etc etc.

When it happens in Tibet, its obvious, China provoked and caused it, when it happens in the middle east? Well its Islam that caused it. Similar situations with different responses can only mean one thing, hypocrisy.

If westerners were walking down the streets of tripoli en masse with placards of ‘offensive’ depictions then your point would be much stronger.

The difference here is that an orange march down the streets of dublin is unlikely to trigger mass catholic outrage in columbia

@ Conor
Westerns don’t walk down the streets of Middle Eastern countries with offensive placards, they bomb them.

@Westerners blow up muslims/radical muslims blow up westerners et al. None of it is great in terms of humanity and unfortunately there is no solution.

My point was aimed at dereks comparison to the dublin riots and the orange march. Thats an example of a direct confrontation. And not the same as a minor offence in Place A leading to huge reprecussion thousands of miles away in Place B.

Racism? What? Muslim isn’t a race; people from all races are Muslim. Drones? I am Northern Pakistani, the drones are used for terrorists; they are authorized by the Pakistani Government as well. Whatever happens to civilians has been all accidents. The overwhelming majoirty of civilians have been killed by the Taliban (INTENTIONALLY) and only some civilians were killed by NATO (ACCIDENTLY). They dont target civilians, that is a complete lie.

Well Paddy, its easy to be brave when the danger is not near home. How would we feel here if an Irish magazine did the same. I dont condone them but I dont see the point in provoking them.

@ THE GRINDER, I would applaud any Newspaper, (Irish or otherwise), who would stand up and be counted in the face of intimidatory attempts at the denial of free speech.

Yes, that is EXACTLY what it is.
So you think free speech is the right to say anything as long as the State agrees with you?

If you’re going to ban hate speech, you’re banning free speech.

When was a cartoon hate speech? They make fun of all religions. So free speech is anything that doesn’t offend? We should be all in jail then by your standards. People have the right to hate what they want. People have the right to hate me because I am mixed and that i am an Atheist. I have the right to hate them for that, I don’t have a right to silence them or harass them. Cartoons don’t harass people or infringe on their rights. IT’S A COMEDY MAGAZINE!!! If they were harassing/threatening Muslims then there would be a problem. The cartoon isn’t hateful! Why is no one outraged over the Orthodox Jew in the pic? Because it is stupid to be outraged over it. Do we get outraged over Jesus and Irish as drunk cartoons? No. Some just get a little annoyed and that’s it.

“autocrats” ….yup so lets go defend Syria? Nope? If socio-economic context is all then how come all the men involved in the 9/11 attacks were educated well off individuals. The true disingenuous nature of this, Ian, Is to pretend that these religious lunatics are doing this because of something other that their religious belief. The ruthless secularisation of huge parts of the globe in the name of God is the root cause and to pretend otherwise is dangerous. The entire 200 years plus of suffering at the hands of religion had no Western imperialism so how did that propagate? Your creating a modern illusion. Islam is a religion of conquest and without faith most Muslim grievances against the west would be impossible to even formulate let alone avenge. I agree with Paul Berman when he says people use “Liberalism as denial” however stating that western imperialism is the root cause is a masterpiece in moral blindness.

Thanks for those words from 1930…

Syria doesn’t fit into the west’s limited perspective because Assad simply won’t play ball like the House of Saud or the numerous other dictators that the west support. As you can see the west picks and chooses which autocrats to support as long as they fit into their narrow economic interests. As with all things, its all about the money. As for these religious lunatics, you are divorcing these people from their contexts which is infantile. They are very much products of their environment. In this environment there is real anger and rage towards the west for good reason because of their imperialism in their countries. I can start listing the west’s invasions and interference out here if you want, the sheer amount and the time span it scales is impressive. In this context people from these countries who have very real grievances will need an outlet to express their anger and unfortunately at the minute this is through religion fanatacism. Anybody can see that there is a direct corrolation between the west’s actions in the Muslim world and the spike in fundamentalism. As for the men in 9/11 just because they are well off educated individuals does not mean their anger towards western imperialism cannot be manipulated by religious zealots. Just to clarify the west’s imperialism towards the Muslim world spans a lot further back than just the Iraq invasion or pre 9/11, as I said I can start listing them here if you want.

“infantile” ? Steady on there Ian – I’m not the one whose tautology is almost impossible to follow.
I’ would wager I’m just as if not more informed about western foreign policy and its disgraceful impact on humanity. More ideology writ large wreaking mayhem. I’d love to see the academic journals your world view comes from though. Ask the folk of Constantinople and Europe who were invaded in the 6th century by Muslim forces about imperialistic invasions.
Listen, this tit for tat – who did what my body count is bigger than yours rubbish is ridiculous. Granted that our wilful tolerance of abusive state power is a problem its not the cause. To blame a foreign policy solely on the actions of Islamic fundamentalists is quite wrong and ignorant of the facts.
The driving force behind all Islamic suicide bombers and murders is their religion and only that. Your obfuscation and refusal to pay clear attention to intention is dangerous.
When asked is Suicide Bombing in the defence of Islam justifiable:
82% of Lebanese said yes, as did 73% in the ivory coast, 66% in Nigeria, 65 in Jordan, 58% in Bangladesh, 54% in Mali, etc etc.

These are hundreds of millions who think you and I being murdered in defence of their faith is absolutely fine. A huge percentage of the Muslim faith “believe” that those well educated men who carried out the 9/11 attacks, slit air stewardess throats and drove planes with babies on them into the towers are (according to verse 47:15 of their “holy book”) seated at the right hand side of God.
Show me one American solider who went to Iraq to Murder babies with intent.
These Islamic fundamentalists are people who are moved to kill at reruns of Baywatch Ian – being as erudite as to just do it to oppose western actions would be a relief. Tell me Ian, is western Imperialism responsible for the Islamic Honour killings of hundreds of thousands of young girls every year?

….very little in life “IS but there is a lot of …it is said…is it worth considering…is there a possibility that…could it be….from my perspective…in the opinion of many….I wonder?…… Try using one/ some of the above sometime Mr Niazi there is just a chance people might I say might take your views into consideration!