Have to say the only drug that ever landed me in A&E was Citalopram.. And I’ve taken a LOT of drugs in my time..

I know someone that developed Bipolar on that drug! ie Ciprager. Not sure why there are so many confusing names for the same drug. Seems to be Celexa in other parts.

No Citalopram made me hallucinate and think that I needed to kill myself, it was Venlafaxine that gave me the symptoms of bi polar, I’m just glad I didn’t get put on lithium too, that makes you into a glassy eyed zombie..

Venalafaxine = Effexor. I know someone who took there own life while on that drug. Why all the confusing names Big Pharma?

I think it’s patent vs generic, some have different names depending on the country they’re sold in too.. You’re right it’s stupid.

At least when I took ecstacy I knew I was taking a risk. I took those drugs in good faith because “doctor knows best”, after slicing myself open the doctor said I should stay on them as it was the settling in phase.. After the overdose I insisted I didn’t want to take them anymore..
Thats when I got Effexor, I dropped 1/4 of my body weight in 1 month but this didn’t raise any alarm bells with my shrink, nor did me being extremely intense and hyped up (or manic!)

People say we don’t have the mental health services to cope with drug legalisation, but we have an appalling mental health service full stop. It seems like more fallacy to me..

The government has every right to criminalise drugs. People don’t live in isolation and they operate machinery, drive cars and public transport like planes and trains. Last week a pilot was about to take a plane full of passengers when he was apprehended because he was high on drugs. People need to know that nut bags full of drugs are nowhere near the controls of anything. Doctors, dentists etc could very easily be injecting or consuming drugs during work hours and the fear of being caught and criminalised is a good deterrent.

Legalizing drugs, and legalizing doing important, risky work on drugs are two VERY different points. I don’t see how what you are saying engages anything I said in any direct, and logical way.

Also, there’s the question of how alcohol is legal. Surely you must want alcohol to be banned if you are really committed to that view.

I find your view on ‘evil’ quite naive, and frankly dangerous. Destructive and dangerous, yes. No doubt. I’ve had my mental health absolutely ravaged by drugs, so nobody needs to tell me. I just find the word ‘evil’ unhelpful. The dark is not our enemy – pushing things away, well – it pushes them away. And then they own us. Whereas we could be shining a light of curiosity and investigation on these matters to show just what is good and what is not so good about things like drugs. There’s plenty of both to make that quite an undertaking.

I don’t know the story of that pilot, but if you can show me how drugs being illegal managed to hinder him, then you might have a point. Obviously even if they were legal, he’d have been apprehended in the same way.

Power tools and such are legal too, as is fertilizer. If you wanted to, you could wreak havoc with any of that stuff. Cars are probably among the most lethal things in modern society, and they are legal. It seems to me it is a question of how things are used. Making them illegal in a nanny-state fashion is just naive, and unlikely to work. Nobody really cares about the law in making the decision to do drugs, because people do not equate the law with their own moral compass (however healthy or flawed the compass may be).

You aren’t supposed to operate heavy machinery or drive while taking many prescription drugs, including anti depressants which there is an alarming number of people taking..
These are taken daily as they are medications – not recreational..

I’ve been on an SSRI.. I was full on hallucinating and thought I was operating a giant robot and watching my life on a screen, I can appreciate why it was better I didn’t operate machinery..

So your point about drugs is what??

Watched a very interesting docu about Portugals decision to legalize the use of drugs – they seem to have the right attitude. The government should think about decrimanalisation and if people who smoke grass want to grow their own then let them buy permits/licences at say 1000 euros per 2 plants. Money for the revenue and a lot of happy laid back people.

Shanti, why do you suggest that ignorance has anything to do with my view. I have experience of people who took drugs once and one destroyed his mental health and the other was fished out of the sea. I also am very educated regarding panic attacks and paranoia resulting from drug taking. The problem with a lot of people is they think if it’s legal it must be ok and it encourages more people to avail of it. People are not great at being informed in this country with a fairly sizeable majority who are followers rather than leaders and it’s time the truth is sought and honesty used instead of ideas and proposals being “sold” as if it is the truth. Accommodation is the name of the game for people to lead lives totally free and that kind of ‘freedom’ is actually irresponsibility masquerading as liberty or freedom. People need to get some integrity into their lives and then we might not have such a pathetic country.

Cigarettes are legal and I’ve never smoked in my life. Some people are going to try these things anyway if they’re inclined to regardless of their legality. However, the amount of people who have tried marijuana in The Netherlands is lower that those who have tried it in the USA so the opposite of what you’re saying could be true (due to unscrupulous pushers or the added thrill of doing something illegal or whatever).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTPsFIsxM3w

I’m sorry but I care more about statistics rather than your personal experience. Alcohol is responsible for more than its fair share of misery yet you don’t seem to be arguing that it should also be made illegal.

You should look up Portugal too as Michael says. I’ve heard enough about it to think they’ve definitely got the right idea (although I haven’t seen that documentary Ann mentioned but I intend to look for it now I know there is one).

Sheelagh.
In addition to the point Lorcan has just made, for those two people you know I know hundreds who went mad taking recreational drugs in their early 20s but have now grown out of it and haven’t looked back..

What I meant by ignorance was the continual refusal to look at the reality of the situation and instead continuing on with a method that has been conclusively proven not to work. That’s not just ignorance, it’s insanity.

I advocate personal responsibility, but you can only take responsibility when you have the facts, and the drug education kids are given is a sham.

With regards anxiety attacks, I get anxiety attacks from CAFFIENE. Should we ban tea and coffee?

I agree with this- I think people drinking too much are a bigger menace than someone smoking too much weed- much more aggression and antisocial behaviour.
We are used to drink so we accept it. I also think regulation of drugs would control the strength of the available drugs.

I’m in agreement on this too

Just second sentence from your link :

“Under the new legal framework, all drugs were “decriminalized,” not “legalized.”

Over here they talk about legalization of the drugs, I think there is no way you can compare these two things using Portugese expirience.

legalisation/regulation is 100% the way to go.

decriminalisation only fixes the problem at street level, and still leaves gangsters in charge of manufacture & distribution…..& the big money.

>clean, top quality drugs

It’s not an argument, we already have clean, top quality tobacco which kills millions.

I, personally, have some history with drug users who was one of my relatives, who also started from smoking cannabis, then swithced to heroin, then destroyed his family and later commited suicide. Legality of the drug for him was not an issue, there was no problems to get drugs and he was never arested because of that.

Commercial tobacco is not clean. It is filled with poisoned chemicals. Get your facts straight. And just because someone you knew started on weed and went on to heroin does not mean we all do! I’ve smoked weed for over 15 years and I’m no junkie. Neither is a single person that I know, and 90% of them are weed smokers. Your concern would be better aimed at commercial tobacco smokers and drinkers, they use LEGAL drugs and drop dead in their millions worldwide each year. How many die from weed? None.

So, what? It’ legal and still not clean? Why? So, your logic is flawed since you beleive that legalisation will lead to clean and quality drugs.

Yes, I know the answer. The answer is in theory of Adam Smith – the inivisible hand of the market.

If shops were to sell say, cocaine and heroin (I don’t support those drugs, but I use them as an example because they are often cut with poisoness substances), then they would sell it pure because the law suits would be unimaginable if people started dying from using legal, tainted drugs. The legal weed would not be sandblasted or have glass in it. Hash wouldn’t have plastic and car tyres in it. Ecstacy wouldn’t have rat poison in it. So yes, they would have to be pure, clean drugs.

Regarding tobacco, it’s possible to get pure, unrefined tobacco with no chemical additives. One brand I can think of is called ‘American Spirit’. Unfortunately the only way to get it here is via the internet.

It’s very naive of you to think that because something becomes legal, it automatically becomes cleaner. Think of the reasons why various drugs are cut with different chemicals or bulked up by adding plastic or glass. It’s not because someone is going out of their way to poison the next person, it’s because they can earn more money by diluting it with other chemicals. If a legal drug industry formed, you can be sure legal but potential harmful chemicals would still be added to increase profit. Sure it already happened with the legal highs found in the head shops. Do a bit of research on the legal highs that flooded the country over the last few years and you will find that a very large percentage of them were even more dangerous than what they were trying to imitate.

However, I do agree with legalisation to an extent but not for the reasons you have argued [because people will still do it it regardless of whether it's legal or not]. Drug related crime is spiralling out of control in Ireland. Guns are now common with shootings happening nearly every week, the most recent victim a 16 year old girl. By buying illegal drugs you fund these criminals and become part of their network of profit.

Addiction is very much a problem with illegal drugs just as much as it would be if they were legal. However, the violence that is generated is just as problematic so I think we should look at all the options available to us.

“started from smoking cannabis, then swithced to heroin”

@angryzes, if you think this is the norm then you have lived a very sheltered life.

>@angryzes, if you think this is the norm then you have lived a very sheltered life.

What you trying to say? I do not think that it is the norm, I know quite a few guys who started with the weed and then switched to some harder stuff.

How old are you? You can give warranty that you will never switch to some more serious stuff? You will share a joint with your kids? Whatever, you better run every morining and eat healthy food.

Another point:
U.S. scientists say they don’t believe the theory that experimentation with marijuana is harmless and won’t lead to further drug use.

http://www.physorg.com/news71419492.html

angryzes: Weed is not a gateway drug. Tobacco and alcohol ARE. For your information, we have cannabinoid receptors in our brain. Why are those there then, eh? Hmm? Get out of here with your propaganda, your opinion belongs back in the 40′s.

I’m 21. I have tried harder stuff and I don’t think it’s done me any harm. I also don’t think that smoking weed ever led to any of it, but alcohol might have had something to do with it.

Just because a heroin addict used to smoke weed doesn’t mean that weed led him there. I drank water before I drank beer, but I doubt it was the cause.

Would I share a joint with my kids? Why not? Obviously not when they were young, but if you can share a drink with your kids, why not a joint?

Propaganda of a health lifestyle is a good thing. And I will decide where to stay and what to say. Freedom of speach, yes? You smoke too much, I guess. Moreover, over here they talk about legalisation of all drugs.

Drug use is a disability: enough said, just go and see videos on youtube like that (no need to have my propaganda):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsUFTT8pLZU

>I’m 21.

When I was 21 I had similar ideas like you but, beleive me, all these myths very soon disappeared. In my town – at first many young guys were big fans of cannabis, later extasy. Now, I see many of my classmates are dead already, some of them are complete junkies. Now, we have thousands of used syringies lying all over the town, on grass near childrens playground for example.

Whatever, it’s all propaganda, do not listen to me.

I hate to resort to this kind of response but you seem to be a moron. I know plenty of people in their 40s and 50s who smoke weed and are not junkies. I also know that I am far from a junky. Out of the hundreds of people I know who smoke weed there are very few (I could count on one hand) who I could ever see becoming a junky.

If you grew up somewhere where everybody becomes a junky, it doesn’t mean that they are junkies because of weed. How can you be so ignorant to see that if all of your classmates became heroin addicts it might because of some other reason, such as an inadequate education system, poverty or whatever other social problem.

I’m sure there are areas in Ireland where a large proportion of the community ends up using heroin, but that is down to social problems, not because they started smoking weed. If your argument was correct, half the country would have a needle in their arm this very moment.

Sean, it was just stupid answer. I would prefer to stay moron and not become junkie like you. It looks like your life will be bright and, unfortunately short. Junkies do not live long. I am stupid as well, I should never try to argue with junkie.

Haha, so now I’m a junky? You are retarded.

Sean, you want me to respect your rights and you do not respect my rights. Now you decide who is retarded. I do recognize that you have some sort of disability and angryliy attack people who do not endorse your lifestyle. I am not there with a flashlight in your living room when you smoke your shit, so, chill. It’s not important what is the outcome of this poll – majority of people will never agree to legalize drugs.

Angryzes.
Again I will point you toward the logically of your argument.
You just in effect said “well you’re a poopoo head so I’m not talking to you”, that’s the critical thinking and debating skills of a child. A rational logical adult realises that attacking the man rather than the issue is childish and in no way makes their case any stronger.
It’s also against the rules for commenting here, I feel I should warn you of this before the mods here see fit to ban you.

*logicality

Shanti Om,

You have to read it from the beginning. So it’s OK to call me moron and expect respect? Stop playing logic class already.

Angryzes… drug use is a disability? What the funk are you talking about? Blatant ignorance towards the difference between certain drugs is your disability. You coming on here spouting your anti-drugs propaganda (yes, whether you realise it or not, you are recycling decades-old propaganda) is no different to a Catholic priest trying to give sex advice. ie, you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about.

tobacco is deliberately contaminated with hundreds of chemicals

Angryzes, what makes you think I have not read each of your contributions?
For me to respond without doing so wouldnt make any sense.

I apologise if logic offends you, but it’s kinda vital to have a reasonable, adult debate. And I was giving you a heads up there because attacking the man rather than their argument is specifically against the rules for the comments section and they can and will ban you for it.

I’m all for your freedom of speech, and I defend your right to say whatever you want, but you need to take responsibility for it. If the best argument you can come up with is fallacy, then you don’t have an argument, you just have some assumptive nonsense and personal insults – which is really quite childish and unnecessary.

@Sovereign

Yes, drug addiction is a disability. I’ve seen enough examples of that and this fact is recognized by the state which intoduces methadone programs, rehabilitation programs, etc. So, because this question was not just about cannabis legalization but legalization of all drugs, I have the rights to say that.

As of cannabis, I already wrote here that it’s not heavy drug but in my opinion sitll harmful for the society if it will have same level of use as tobacco, for example. If you need it to cure cancer – that’s different story altogether. And I am against both tobacco and alcohol use, so do not use that argument that drugs must be legalized because these subtances are legal.

“Drug use is a disability: enough said, just go and see videos on youtube like that (no need to have my propaganda):”

Which is it Angryzes, addiction may well be classed as a disability, but you said “use”.

By the way, methadone is far more addictive than even heroin, at least you can go cold turkey from heroin, ask a methadone user if they can do the same..

Now, if Iboga wasn’t a controlled substance these people could ingest the roots of the Iboga plant, vomit wildly (the purge) then reexperience their life from the point of view of everyone around them.
Their cravings are interrupted for about 6 months – long enough for them to have gone cold turkey and no longer be addicted.

The drug companies tried to make a drug out of the Iboga plant, ibogaine. But it’s not legal either..

So why do they consign ex heroin addicts to a life of further addiction when there is a perfectly good way to end the cycle that has an alarmingly high success rate?

Couldn’t have anything to do with corporate profits now could it?

To the mods: PLEASE sort out your website. This is my third attempt trying to post this. It keeps telling me I “need to be logged in to post. I am!!!

Angryzes: How is weed harmful to society? Stoned people don’t start fights. Stoned people like to be in a positive atmosphere. I’m a musician and an artist; I find weed, shrooms and salvia diviorum (among other things) to be incredibly useful inspirational tools. What are your favourite bands? Unless you like Christian music, I can almost guarantee you that a great deal of your favourite artists wrote at least some of their music while on some kind of drug. To quote Bill Hicks: “If you are against drugs then take all those records of yours and burn them, because you know all those artists that wrote those great songs? REAL fuckin’ high..”

It seems that you, my sadly deluded friend, are against any humans using their free will to decide whether they want to experiment with any substances. You want the choice removed. Who the fuck do you think you are? Why should anyone pander to your brainwashed notions of what is or isn’t good for us? You’re on the losing side, the side of the heavily asleep. You will never experience any kind of enlightenment. You will never grow. With your attitude, you’ll continue to devolve. The process has begun…

Agreed on that one.

Oops. Salvia Divinorum*

@Sovereign where on Earth I told you what to do? My opinion is that legalisation of drugs is bad for society. Of course, you understand 5-a day wrong :) No its not mushrooms and weed, it’s vegetables and fruits. And … Next time when you will be on the other side – say hello to Katy French.

Angryzes, seriously?
1. Spotlight fallacy, the “gateway drug” argument.. Smoking will make you end up a junkie. Despite all evidence to the contrary. This happens to a small number of people and has myriad reasons, the cannabis isn’t one of them or all people who smoke cannabis would become junkies.
2. Appeal to ridicule, trying to make stupid digs to undermine your opponents contribution rather than deal with the issue.
3. Appeal to authority. Psychiatry is quack science, and that study Is not properly referenced – just like the last one I told you was invalid for the same reason.. I’m guessing you know nothing about medical research fraud and epidemiology then no? One trial means NOTHING. And without data and references, it’s just propaganda.
4. You then say drug USE is a disability.. Complete outright lie.
5. Appeal to seniority – the assumption that being older means you know better.. It’s not backed up by fact.
6. Ad hominem tu quoque, wouldn’t want to be a junkie like you..
7. Utter hypocrisy, you threw the first insult and when he answers you, you start crying foul..
8. You ask me to read it from the beginning – hasty generalisation, you assumed I hadn’t..
9. You change your tune from drug use = disability to drug addiction is disability – which is reasonable, but shows that your initial comment was a deliberate exaggeration. And was your basis for insulting the other poster..
10. More appeals to ridicule, comments about 5 a day and Katy French.. (ps, for optimal health it’s 7-9 a day FYI)
11. Delusions of grandeur, we don’t think your opinion has any merit – as I’ve just pointed out, its all based on fallacy, realistically it’s more likely people are enjoying your fondness for showing yourself up on a public forum..
You have lied, slung mud and relied on fallacy.. That’s not an educated argument, that’s just clutching at straws..

I know you asked, nay told me, to stop playing logic class but seriously dude, you NEED it. Your posts prove that.

Shanty, stop your demagogy. Try to be brief.

In fact, It’s a tragedy when young people die. It’s all starts as an innocent hobby (experiments with drugs) and ends up in the coffin. Artists, famous people we see, many others just die alone. Apart from direct drug use there are indirect casualties. In Ireland, for example, one of the highest suicide rates in Europe. Add legal drugs and it will double.

There was drug related death in my family as well, it’s not a laughing matter for me.

Apart from all that – even drug use is disability. Look at the YouTube videos where this guy tries to be productive under salvia. It looks like serious illness.

Man do you ever stop with the fallacy?
Suicide rates?? These are not necessarily linked to illegal drug use, in fact – they are more frequently related to PSYCHIATRIC DRUGS (see http://www.ssristories.com and bear in mind that adverse events are known to be underreported) Anti depressants ironically enough increase suicidal ideation and violent outbursts – just look at Columbine. AND meta analysis of all trial data show that they are basically useless for all the dangers involved.
Conversely, psylocybin mushrooms had been studied for application in depressive states in the 60s/70s and are being investigated again by Johns Hopkins, initial results are positive. Non addictive, and one trip has positive effects lasting up to a year.

And you have just shown your ignoarance yet again. You refer to a video – obviously out of context, about functionality on Salvia Divinorum. This is a psychedelic, an entheogen in fact, smoking it allows you to meet Lady Salvia. You are supposed to take it sitting or lying down and experience the trip, in fact, you will feel something holding you down. Anyone could tell you psychedelics are not conducive to every day functioning.. You’re hallucinating for goodness sake!
Besides, how long do you think it lasts for?

Ooh, I was debilitated for all of FIVE minutes and then I was sober again, if a little stoned..

All your examples relate to drug abuse versus drug use. And is yet another fallacy.. You’re actually embarrassing yourself now whether you realise it or not..

List of drug related deaths
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_drug-related_deaths

What was that supposed to prove? They were pretty much ALL alcohol, heroin, cocaine, barbiturates, tranquillisers and sleeping pills. All of which are man made drugs.. FYI, Cocaine and Heroin were actually the first two drugs used in psychiatry..
Straw man AND red herring.. You don’t stop do you?
Not one single death from cannabis, mushrooms, DMT or anything else.. Some people had them in their systems alongside a lot of other more toxic drugs, some people not understanding the nature of the drugs made stupid combinations (GHB + MDMA or GHB + alcohol will stop your heart).

That list proves absolutely nothing mate.. Besides the fact that alcohol and prescription drugs are as dangerous if not more than cocaine and heroin, just as Professor Nutt had stated in his report..

angryzes, the reason I accused you of being a moron is the simple fact that you lack the ability to understand (or want to understand) anything more than your basic, ill-informed ideas. The statements you make are absolutely ridiculous, such as “Look at the YouTube videos where this guy tries to be productive under salvia. It looks like serious illness”. Your argument makes no sense, the high from salvia lasts a minute or two. It’s hardly going to stop a person being a productive member of society. It’s a bit of fun for a few minutes and then it’s over, it does not kill people or ruin families. Salvia was legal in Ireland and I’m not sure if it still is. It did not lead people to crack-pipes and methadone clinics.

You’ve basically been trying to argue that because where you grew up everyone ended up on heroin that this is the case for everyone. You’ve pretty much stated that those I know who have smoked weed (including myself) will probably end up in the same place. You’ve tried to tell me that I was a junkie.

“in my opinion still harmful for the society” – this is exactly what I meant by saying that you do not have the ability to see anything below the surface of what comes to your mind. Do you not already see the harm that is being done to society by criminalising otherwise law-abiding citizens? The drug wars? The channeling of profits to criminal enterprises when it could be taxed and regulated like any other business?

“In fact, It’s a tragedy when young people die. It’s all starts as an innocent hobby (experiments with drugs) and ends up in the coffin. Artists, famous people we see, many others just die alone. Apart from direct drug use there are indirect casualties. In Ireland, for example, one of the highest suicide rates in Europe.” – This is a very small minority of drug users. You obviously can’t see that this isn’t the norm. And as for the suicide rate, that has absolutely nothing to do with drug use in Ireland. Most people will turn to drugs if they have problems in the first place, they don’t commit suicide because of drugs. I know three people who have killed themselves and none of them used drugs. Although there are obviously some cases where it is the cause, again, it is not the norm!

You obviously have no knowledge of drugs, any kind of ability to see beyond some stupid ideas and no intention of learning.

Stupidly I never unchecked the “notify me of followup comments” box when I originally replied and have been bombarded over the last two days with emails updating me on this bickering contest you are having. The pair of you are going around in circles with polar opposite views and I’m starting to wonder will these emails ever stop. In regard nobody dying from cannabis, LSD, etc – read this paper http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/pdf-files/NarcsFundedTerrs_Extrems.pdf (mentioned above by another commenter). It’s a perfect account of where the money you pay for “a bit of spliff” can go. Sure there’s drugs related shootings every week at this stage in Ireland. You may not be getting hurt but that doesn’t mean that somewhere else along the line someone else isn’t. And just a note in relation to the health implications of smoking cannabis – don’t be so naive as to think there aren’t any. Of course there are! The only reason they can’t prove it yet is because no thorough study has been done, compounded by the fact it’s very hard to find someone who smokes only cannabis and not tobacco too. Anyone with an ounce of cop on can look at the resin in the inside of a bong, even after short use, and deduce that having the same build up in your lungs can’t be good.

However(!) the argument that cannabis is a gateway drug is pure bull. Fair enough, you’ve witnessed some terrible things (and I can be completely honest and say I have too) but that doesn’t mean that it’s going to happen to everyone. Yes, chances are the average heroin addict didn’t start off on heroin but rather by smoking joints. But you can be sure there was probably external factors, social or family or whatever, that also played significantly influential roles bringing them to where they are today. By that argument alcohol and cigarettes are really the gateway drugs.

At the end of the day the war on drugs isnt working and globally we all need to take a good hard look at what we can do to help the situation we are in. By keeping drugs illegal we give the bad guys one of the most successful and profitable markets on the planet. However, by legalising them there is a very real risk we could put ourselves in an even worse situation that we’re already in and one that will be very difficult to get back out of

Peter. The paper you link to proves one thing alone, something you acknowledged yourself. That the so called war on drugs doesn’t work and in fact funds criminal gangs and terrorist organisations.
I would happily grow my own cannabis. I go up the mountains in autumn to collect mushrooms. I do not wish to engage with these criminal elements, but the laws surrounding these plants forces me to.
I despise the seedy underbelly of drug trafficking and the people involved although thankfully, they are several steps up the chain from the person I would have to deal with. In all honesty I would far prefer to walk into a licensed business to make my purchase. As I am sure would anyone else. To feel that my purchase contributed to the economy or created jobs would be even better.

I would stipulate however, that the necessary precondition to repealing these laws be an open and honest education about these substances vs the reefer madness based nonsense we get today.
We do not even get appropriate education about alcohol for goodness sake. This is a problem with education. But I could go on all day about the holes in the education system.. The move away from critical thinking and towards learning by rote and examination being a huge one..
If you have read any of my other posts I have advocated the focus on education and personal responsibility consistently. These plants have been considered sacred for millennia, and should be shown respect, rather than being thought of as party drugs which they are not.

My apologies that you got bombarded with this discussion. This is the downside to the email notification system I guess..

well said Eric!

Just because alcohol and prescription drugs are harmful or ‘more harmful’ isn’t a good reason to legalise drugs. If as you say that these legal drugs are more harmful maybe making the other illegal drugs legal will make them more harmful too.

yes, bit I don’t give this as a ‘reason’ to legalise, but to expose the hypocracy & actual agenda of those pushing the war on drugs ….there’s plenty of reasons why they should be legal though.

Two wrongs don’t make a right!

Yes, but three right make a left.

Their not allowed ( international treaties ) to legalize cannabis just decriminalize it .When big Pharma and big oil payed to have it banned they made sure it stayed banned .Wachovia Bank, a division of Wells Fargo Bank got caught laundering $4bil in Mexican drug money and their fine was about 10% of the commission they earned yet users get locked up ,tell me this whole issue doesn’t stink more than a bag of banned skunk?

Entheogens should not be banned in the first place.
To legalise them is the wrong course of action, the laws banning them should be repealed. They grew out of the ground, banning them is like saying nature / god was wrong..

This is an unjust law, it should be repealed.

This is very interesting.”Ten Years After Decriminalization, Drug Abuse Down by Half in Portugal”.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/07/05/ten-years-after-decriminalization-drug-abuse-down-by-half-in-portugal/

Shanti, not everything that grows from the ground is inherently good. There are millions of poisonous species out there. Yew trees, Oleander, Daturas, hemlock, will all kill humans and other animals if ingested.

@ P Wurple.

A) none of the things you listed is an entheogen. Entheogens are sacred herbs and funghi – by virtue of their association with spirituality they are supposed to be treated with respect. You won’t hear that in drugs education at school..

B) if you would read my contributions I myself have pointed out that there are poisons in nature which are not banned, I used them as an example of why the “it’s banned because its dangerous” is misleading.

C) I have also pointed out that the EU and Codex have proceeded down the slippery slope and also tried to ban vitamins and minerals, as well as herbal medicines – while allowing dangerous pharmaceuticals on the market and leaving other more dangerous plants untouched.

As someone who studies logic, I realise the fallacy of saying all natural things are safe, as someone who has studied human nutrition I realise this too. But I have not said this, you are literally putting words in my mouth there, therefore, your argument is a complete straw man.

Entheogens are considered sacred to many indigenous cultures, and have HEALING properties, they are not poisons. It was the laws surrounding THEM I was calling to be repealed (funnily enough, there’s no law against the things you mentioned is there?)

Shanti, both Datura and Hemlock have both been used in rituals historically. An entheogen is not a scientific classification, it’s purely a grouping with religious context. I could eat a piece of cake this evening, dance around in the moonlight afterwards and call the cake an entheogen.

I was taking issue with this sentence:
“They grew out of the ground, banning them is like saying nature / god was wrong.”
This implies that as it grew from the ground, and as nature is right, hence what grew from the ground is also right.

“Entheogens are considered sacred to many indigenous cultures, and have HEALING properties, they are not poisons.”
Sorry, that’s just not true. Datura is a good example. It has been used historically in rituals, it is also a poison. Unless you mean spiritual or emotional healing, in which case, surely there is something less toxic that could be used?

Sorry P Wurple, I didn’t get a notification of your response.

As I have said, entheogens have been used as far back in history as we can see, and perhaps most importantly, shown respect.
You can poison yourself with an Amanita Muscaria if you don’t treat it correctly. But if you use it ritualistically – then the preparation makes up part of the ritual.
Datura is supposed to be a pretty crazy journey, so to use it without preparation could leave one a bit messed up – this is why we need to treat our teens with a bit of respect and be honest with them, many don’t realise that a psychedelic journey is supposed to mimic the after death experience, to allow you to reevaluate your life and work on your karma before your time is up.. If they have unresolved issues, these may come to the forefront during their journey and could leave them suicidal – I would hazard a guess that those “he took shrooms and threw himself off a balcony” incidents are caused by people not facing up to their emotions and then getting whacked in the face with them once the trip starts.. It can be a rather unnerving experience.

Believe me P Wurple, it’s not something I would recommend for the feint of heart. And I would only advocate it within a safe, secure setting, with an experienced companion in case things get a bit rocky. But you have to know what you are letting yourself in for, and our education system and media distort the truth about these plants and so people make uninformed decisions and the rest is down to them..

Anything can be dangerous if not treated with respect. You can drown yourself from drinking too much water without paying attention to electrolyte balance, as happens to people on ecstacy (they hear dehydration is a concern so they drink tons of water not realising that there’s more to hydration than just water – see the infamous Leah Betts).

If there’s a chance people are going to do it anyway, the least you can do is make it safer for them. Banning things simply doesn’t work.
When you lie to your kids, you give them reason to mistrust you. Once they feel they’ve been lied to, they are inclined to make the fallacious assumption that everything has been a lie, and that is just as dangerous as any drug.

As a side note, if these entheogens are part of your spiritual worship, isn’t having a law against them denying you of your freedom of religion?

Ps, P Wurple, there’s no way you could call a cake an entheogen like you described and for you to make that statement shows you do not know what the word means.
Entheogens specifically cause psychedelic experiences, and unless you put some in that cake, then it’s just a cake.

There are several theories about these substances being responsible for our evolution, theories about them being responsible for religion, and then there’s the healing effects of certain ones..
Your insinuation is rather disrespectful to this aspect of other peoples spiritual lives..

Malcolm, I completely agree….as Einstein kindly stated; the definition of insanity ‘is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results’

This is a serious issue that cannot be resolved with a ‘One fits all’ approach, as our lovely government is so inclined to do, but it is definitely one that should be looked at sooner rather than later. Drug use and abuse is not going away and the tax payers are suffering, the abusers are suffering, our health care system (or lack of) is suffering and the criminals (in all their forms) are counting their cash.

So well put :)

great post!!!

if water was left to the black market to control it too would be dangerous

The standards we are trying to set for our country are so low with trying to legalise drugs, abortion and prostitution. Is it any wonder the country is in the state it’s in. The same old claptrap is dished out that we will be helping those addicted etc. wouldn’t it be far better if we told ourselves the truth and acknowledged that the more we accommodate evil, the more evil we will have.

No drug is relatively harmless !

Any chemical you put into the body has affects. Be it too much sagar or a pile of cocaine or weed. Moderation is key.
When will people learn that.
I do agree some very addictive drugs have more drawbacks than others, basically cause they are so addictive they play havoc with someone’s ability to moderate them. That’s my beef with certain drugs being legalised.
Look at how codeine drugs are now more regulated since people started abusing them. Why cant we do that with certain drugs like marijuana?

Here here!

Sheelagh.
Having these things remain criminal causes them to be brushed under the carpet rather than dealt with.
I refer you to the Netherlands. In particular Amsterdam. Clean city, everything works, police are helpful and approachable, prostitutes are unionised, abortion is legal, as are entheogens.
Their society hasn’t fallen apart.. In fact they have lower levels of violent crime and they have more responsible attitudes to drugs and prostitution than we display by criminalising them here.

I’m afraid that until you confront the shadow you cannot deal with it, ignorance merely fuels the problem.

Shanti, As a person from NL i don’t agree with u. Irish culture and Dutch cultures are different, u can’t impose something doesn’t belong to ur culture, en believe me family life in NL especially in Amsterdam does not exist. that’s the first thing i really appreciate in ireland. Crime is increasing in amsterdam so number of licenced prostitutes and coffee-shops will fall by 50% by the end of this year. we expect that drug tourism will get hit but locals are supporting the decision of the municipality. and i’m so proud of my country that we have the lowest abortion rate, below 0,15% just because of an excellent sexual edukation en noone is encouraging abortion but contraception, do u think ireland is ready for this?… on the other hand the country provides labor power by immigration coz of low birth rate and this causes social problems and racism. streets are cleaner in amsterdam because we know how to drink although alcohol is cheaper than ireland… as i said, different cultures…

@ Stella – I would argue that more open and honest education has spurned that difference in culture..
Over here the education is appealing, and I agree – abortion should only ever be a last resort, contraception is a far better option – as should be made very clear to any young woman learning about it.

As long as we brush it under the carpet and treat harmless entheogens the same way we do addictive and harmful chemicals, we will continue to have poorly educated drug users who are going to mess themselves up.

As for the family issue.. Thats a problem here in Ireland too..

I remember hearing the idea (it may have even been implemented in Portugal) that heroin should not only be legalised but also given away for free. The benefit of this is that it could drive the drug pushers out of business so there’d be less uptake, reduce petty crime (by as much as 75% from your statistics), ensure the users have safe needles so the level of HIV/AIDS would be reduced, to have users in constant contact with medical professional so overdoses could be reduced and to make it easier for them to ask for and receive help with their addiction if they wish.

There’s more to the heroin problem than you would think.

You can get someone off heroin in two sessions with Iboga. An entheogen held sacred by the Bwiti tribe of Cameroon.
You have to consume the roots of this plant, purge (vomit) and then you have the mother and father of all trips. You re-experience your life – from the point of view of everyone around you. For the Bwiti tribe the Iboga ritual is a rite of passage into adulthood. For heroin addicts, it interrupts their cravings for up to 6 months, and the trip skips them way ahead in their rehab as getting junkies to have an objective view of their habit is what takes the longest in therapy.

They did try to patent a drug based on it – Ibogaine, it was looking successful, but as it wasn’t the real thing, it wasn’t as effective..
Ayahuasca (a brew used in the Amazon) has similar effects.
There are some places where Iboga / Ayahuasca therapy is done, but it’s not recognised by the allopathic medicine community.. Presumably because patents cannot be applied to plants, and there’s actually an alarming amount of money to be made from methadone, which is supposed to be far more addictive than heroin. And really, it all comes down to money.

Pity, Iboga is meant to be a very effective way to end an addiction..

@ Thomas
Hemp can be used for clothes etc not cannabis & it may mask the effects of cancer but what about the paranoid schizophrenia, panic attacks, anxiety and agoraphobia to name but a few.

Gill. Cannabis does not cause those things, it may trigger latent psychiatric problems but it is not the cause.. Too much coffee and nicotine could do that to you. As could a blood sugar imbalance, a B vitamin deficiency, magnesium deficiency, and a whole lot of other things..

its annoying when, someone who smokes cannabis has some sort of psychiatric episode, their whole life history gets defined by two things….. psychosis & cannabis. No-ones life can be defined like this….has the person been taking alcohol or other substances…….what types of underlying issues could be revealed by a psycho-therapist don’t get a mention.

it stinks to high heaven….& its even more annoying when a family member of the person defines their own loved one like this.

doesn’t take a genius to realise theres bad science stamped all over the connection between cannabis & psychosis, & most of these reports are actually agenda laden scaremongering….considering how low the numbers are, & the much bigger drug issues in society that get ignored by these same media outlets

So paul what your saying is the reason.its illegal is cos its stimulating. What about the fact just like cigarettes its harmful.

Michael, you may wish to check your facts.
Cannabis is not harmful. It can trigger latent psychiatric issues, but it doesn’t cause them. You would need to consume a ridiculous amount of it for it to do you any harm – well, you might get the greenies and vomit, but as far as long term harm like tobacco? No. As pointed out below by Connman – cannabis has been around as long as we have and is yet to harm half as many people as pharmaceutical drugs, tobacco or alcohol do annually.

People’s attitudes toward it need to change, but that can be said of alcohol too.

Massive drug tourism is not welcome in Holland and never was. As of now, under new legislation, in order to visit coffee shop – you need to be resident of Holland.

The last reason we should be using in this debate is tourism. There are far more ethical, intelligent arguments than tourism.

ha!….if the Dutch think people will come in their same numbers for the canals they have a shock coming. They have no problem with the tourism actually….they receive complaints from France & Germany who like to think their drug problem is a result of people hopping on a train to holland…….NONSENSE, its because of their draconian laws!

its the new right wingers in holland that are pushing to stop the tourism, one of whom is the ‘king maker’ there right now……there is a backlash to this starting there now though…………Copenhagen are now considering cafes & have said they may well welcome tourism!

this is going to spread, not die!

>-Zero Deaths World-wide since it’s first discovery almost 5,000 years ago.

Did you do some research on that? How do you know? Just another rasta fairy tale.

I know 100% if you smoke it – you can get cancer since it will still be dangerous fumes.
If you smoke enough of it – your mind will change and you will be dizzy and kind of drunk, so, if you will drive – you can get into an accident. So, do not say it’s harmless.

Smoking Marijuana Doubles Risk of Fatal Accidents
Larger Doses Can Triple the Risk, Study Finds

http://alcoholism.about.com/od/pot/a/pot_driving.htm

Bad example Angryzes..
1. Even in the article you linked, they pointed out that Alcohol was far worse of a problem, yet that remains legal.

2. I don’t actually trust the article.. They reference a study, allegedly in the BMJ yet they do not give the study title, nor any link to it. They say the date but this is insufficient. I would prefer to see the actual study. And then to research the authors to ensure that there are no conflicts of interest.
For them to leave out these important facts shows that something is not right with the article – they may well have added their own slant.. When referencing a genuine study, a link should be provided to it.

3. The BBC article that they did link said that this was a call for better education about driving while under the influence, to be honest – no one should drive under the influence of anything. You aren’t supposed to drive under the influence of some prescription medications either.

4. As for zero deaths.. Smoking is not the only method of consumption you know.. And you would have to eat a far few kilos of cannabis in order to overdose – you would have thrown up from being full long before you got there..

If somebody wants to believe the propaganda your being told then thats up to them but i put alot more credit in evolution, the human brain has evolved over millions of years and has receptors specifically for the intake of cannabinoids which come from a plant that grows naturally on this planet, smoking cannabis is the worst way to consume it as 90% of the benifits are lost as a result http://www.naturalnews.com/034425_marijuana_cannabinoids_medicine.html Yes driving when high increases your risk of a fatal accident but its not the cannibus that kills you so your point is irrelivant. Yes you can get cancer from smoking it but its the chemicals that are released from burning it that can cause cancer not the cannibus itself. Instead Cannibus/Marijuana and Hemp has been proven to help in curing cancer, so much so that bigPharma can no longer deny it and with in the next 5-10 years it will be legal in most of the western world but again will come the corruption because it will only be legal for the big Pharmacutical company’s to sell it http://www.naturalnews.com/034796_marijuana_medicine_Big_Pharma.html And if you really think that BigPharma want a cure for cancer, http://www.naturalnews.com/034823_cancer_industry_patent_protection_drugs.html Trust the F.D.A? even though 60% of there annual income comes directly from the same pharmacutical company’s that they have to regulate, if you have time watch these videos too, http://vimeo.com/24821365 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0psJhQHk_GI

Sorry Shanti these so called natural drugs that are not as such natural cos of all the other shite they put in them you reckon.they.are harmless. You need to go back to school.

Michael, school does not teach the truth about drugs. You need to get educated on them. Shanti has told the truth. You, however, appear to suckle at the black, venemous teat of propaganda.

I fully respect ethno-botanicals, and their use has been blackened grouped into the same mess as the illegal drug trade, but there is no distinction between the individuals right to make up their own mind on what to use or not use, be it ethno-botanicals or synthetic substances.

“Sorry Shanti these so called natural drugs that are not as such natural cos of all the other shite they put in them you reckon.they.are harmless. You need to go back to school.”

Hello Michael, called any kettles black lately?

Entheogens are completely non toxic. In fact the active ingredient in ayahuasca is present in the brain. There’s specific receptors in the brain for cannabinoids too..

Pharmaceutical drugs (including MDMA, LSD, Speed, Ketamine, Cocaine and Heroin) on the other hand are laced with side effects by virtue of their synthetic form, they are also liable to be addictive (LSD and Ecstacy are not clinically addictive, not too sure about Speed, but Ketamine, Cocaine and Heroin definitely are). I advocate their regulation so that they can be produced in sanitary, quality controlled environments, as the drugs themselves – if used in moderation, are not necessarily harmful – they were all originally medical drugs.

addiction rates are actually quite low with most substances, & research also shows that its the compulsive & destructive behaviours of a person with severe psychological problems is a leading factor in addiction. This phenomena applies to all substances, including alcohol, prescription drugs, street drugs, ‘natural’ drugs, & even fatty & sugary foods.

just because something is grown doesn’t make it any safer or cleaner than a chemical. They also contain active ingredients which are chemicals…..the plant world is a big chemical factory in this sense. Being synthesized in a lab doesn’t in itself imply any extra side effects or addiction potential…..that would be very biased & even deluded thinking.

also….from the ingredients used in the various forms of ‘ayahuasca’, can be extracted the active ingredient, DMT. once extracted to 100% purity, this DMT is no different to pure DMT synthesised in a lab.

Eric, perhaps I should clear something up.
When I refer to man made I am speaking of patented synthetic vs natural.

You can extract DMT, you can even synthesise it, but you cannot patent nature, so if it’s got a brand on it, chances are its not actually the same thing.
.
As an example (mentioned above) when the EU introduced the EU FSD hey had a list of “safe” ingredients for food supplements. There was about 20 chemicals listed under each vitamin and mineral, as each pharmaceutical company has their own unique patent on a vitamin isolate. Some of these patented nutrients not only do not behave the same way in the body, some can interfere with nutrient absorption(eg DL-alpha-tocopherol), some are even toxic (sodium selenite).

The safe list didn’t include food source nutrients, as in, the ones chemically identical to the stuff you find in food. This was why the ANH had to challenge it in court because the EU were about to deem food unsafe!

As we all know the synthetic, patented cannabis makes people sick. This is the one that allegedly passed the FDA for safety. If they were to make a drug based on psylocybin you can guarantee they would alter it just enough to get the patent, but that’s all it takes to change the way the body responds to it.

This was what I meant by man made drugs, I should have specified.. thank you for giving me the opportunity to clear that up.

Yes it does. imagine if cigarettes were completely illegal. how much smuggling and gang related violence do you think would be involved.
The “War” on drugs, the 40 year old war has failed, time to think of something else!!
Look at the figures, countries which have taken this step are seeing crime rates drop (~FACT) Portugal. in this day and age it should be a personal choice, if your argument is that its bad for you and caused harmful mental/physical probs in the long term. Cannabis is responsible for no deaths can we say the same for alcohol. agree with you re using this money to treat people addicted to drugs. Please note Cannabis is not addictive and it causes mental health problems in a very very small number of people, Far less than alcohol, plus nots forget that its also has positive traits, good for pain good alternative to pills for older folks, help those who have no appetite and the lists goes on.
If you look up the history of how it was made illegal it was for the good of big business in the states, paper mills, drugs companies, sound familiar big business manipulating politicians to there advantage. it grows naturally in this world of ours, who are they to say what we can and cannot do.

After a long day at the office, its nice to ……………… Relax!!!!!!

the price of street drugs is in direct relation to prohibition, cannabis is a plant that grows in a couple of months, without prohibition the price would be pennys for the pound, tax is a good idea but if you tax anything too much then you open the door to the black market again so dont be greedy mr tax man because thats what is happening right now with bootleg tobacco.
a licence to grow is another good idea but why would a cannabis user be forced to pay when an alcohol user can make home brew without a licence?after all alcohol is more dangerous so please look at the problem in total
pushing drugs on kids is child abuse so police it and prosecute like that . dont tell me that prohibition protects kids in any way
. the amount of users of cannabis in Ireland has more than doubled in the last 20 years so why do the figures not show the same increase in mental illness? simple its another prohibition myth about cannabis

Drugs have been around for 1000s of years. Egyptian mummies had cocaine in their hair follicles. This is despite ‘America’ not having been discovered for another few thousand years.
If you read into the history of most civilisations drugs where involved.

You leave my Mummies follicles out of it!

Hey Aydo, if you get a chance check out the Pharmacratic Inquisition to see the relationship between the Roman Catholic Church and the Amanita Muscaria!!

Aydo what is the obvious fact that drugs have been around for 1000’s of years going to tell us what affect legalising dangerous substances in today’s society will have on this society in the 21st century?

Focusing on former drug takers or ex-addicts and drug users in conjunction with policy makers and mental health “experts”….would generate plausible legislation.
20 week FAS course in drug legislation proposals…hmmmm.

One thing you failed to acknowledge is that most drugs actually cost very little to produce. The high price is due to its illegality, so if legal the low prices would reduce the need for users to resort to crime and the big time dealers would not get the big profits so drug trafficing related crime would dialled but disappear

… That comment is way too long to bother reading!

What? You think the kind of people that are willing to sell drugs for profit and willing to kill their rivals won’t find other ways to make money at the expense of everyone else?! I’m all for the legalization (or some solution other then prohibition) of drugs, but don’t know that there’s some easy magic solution for crime gangs.

criminals will continue to exist of course…..but the silly easy profits we give them on a silver platter will be gone……& most of the horrific cost to society with it.

you know a kilo of cocaine at source costs less to produce than a bag of sugar

look at the street prices…..this money is going to very unscrupulous people, with no regard for human life……..

& think about this……all this money isn’t stored in a drug lord/narco terrorist’s hut in the jungle of columbia or bolivia either…..it goes right back into the banks…….drug lords come & go, quickly…..but the system that supports then, & PROFITS FROM THEM stays in place…..why?

if you look in to who funded the campaign to keep cannabis prohibited in California it is interesting to note that most of the cash came from the private prison guards union and the drinks industry cause there jobs are on the line when they stop locking up pot users

If it’s a patented chemical then it’s not the same.
Synthetic marijuana (as used in the states) makes people sick. It’s given to help with the nausea from chemo etc, but it induces vomitting, so it’s obviously not recognised by the body correctly (as is the case with any patented pseudo natural product)

Drug companies operate in patents, there’s no big profit in selling the same thing someone can grow in their garden or buy anywhere else. You cannot patent nature, so the molecule must be altered sufficiently to secure the patent. Then it’s no longer natural..

Plus, it’s not addictive to start with, nor does it CAUSE craziness. So either the way it was put to you is fallacious or you have misunderstood the chemistry involved.

it is whole cannabis extract 2 strains of the plant are grown one is high in T,H,C and one with high C,B,D they then mix 50/50 with a little alcohol and change its name to sativex thats all they do to the plant it is a very old recipe that queen Victoria herself used to use but it is pure cannabis with none of the ingredients removed . All the nice stuff is still there and if you spray it on a plate and leave for a few mins the alcohol will evaporate leaving good old canna oil .
those points about mental health come from G,W pharma they use different words but it means the same the point about it being non addictive is on their website and on reports they use to sell it all over the world, I have always known it was non addictive but again our Health minister thinks different I directed my use of that comment to the Irish health minister who thinks cannabis is a cause of every thing bad in the world. and the press who like to believe all the lies about cannabis that some politicians and other journalists like to spread they need to start telling the truth.
I know the benefits of cannabis and i also know it is a safer choice to use than paracetamol, even the dirty weed that is sold here is better than any over the counter remedy , i also see how the prohibition of this drug has ruined lives and caused the drug to be consumed sold and distributed in a way that is bad for everyone.
I know you can not patent nature but that does not stop the British government from creating their own genetic strain of cannabis and calling it something else and just ignore those that question whats going on.
there are a lot of things that governments are not allowed to do but when has that ever stopped any of them? you might notice the share price of G,W pharma check back in a few weeks as it rises when more country’s around the world start to sell Government approved cannabis, Ireland is on that list of places about to import it check out this information ….
http://clear-uk.org/the-truth-about-sativex/

you can get pure cannabis bud grown in proper conditions and its legal in a number of Country’s from this place
http://www.bedrocan.nl/

I wonder will anyone be allowed to challenge the monopoly given to G,W pharma or will Ireland’s government only allow one dealer here
When the U,S end cannabis prohibition and it will soon there will be a gold rush to the business end of this drug all over the world and that is going to happen so what position will Ireland be in then when most people here still believe the Prohibition lies from the 1970s
Ireland needs a proper regulatory system that will control the production distribution and consumption of all substance tobacco , alcohol, even heroin because that is the only way to minimize the dangers.
proper sensible laws that are designed to remove the Black market and protect the consumer and the public and a sensible tax that will help pay for a health system

Ah, so they patented the strain.. Clever feckers..
Typical pharmaceutical nonsense.. In the states Monsanto wants to patent all the seeds and own the whole market on weed, lovely.. GM weed, that’s all anyone needs..

They have a knack for taking a good thing and messing it up completely haven’t they?

this is the biggest scam i have ever seen G,W have been given the only licence in the U,K to sell cannabis for a profit and right now they are getting away with it. they sell to the N,H,S to the U,S and all over Europe in all the places cannabis is banned. they also set the price according to their own greed they sell it above street prices so its either buy our overpriced strain of skunk or risk prison by growing you own at a fraction of the cost. i am a great believer in the new vaporizers that are now coming to the market because there is no argument about how dangerous smoking is with tobacco that is clear, but for ever the argument has been used that smoked cannabis is dangerous well that debate is ended with a vaporizer the cleanest and safest delivery method that is also very good for you so i hope when the government approve sativex they also allow other company’s like bedrocane to sell to a open and regulated market that has at its core the welfare of the consumer not the dealer

Too true.. But if the welfare of the consumer counted for anything the world would be a much better place in general!
Sadly, as we should have all realised by now, corporate interests are the only thing that concerns the powers that shouldn’t be..

+1

There is a lot to be said for watching your little babies grow up and smoking the shit outa them without the paranoia of ‘breaking the law’

@ Cupids Daughter
There’s also alot to be said for good parenting too.
You should check it out.

Aranthos: Good parenting would be educating them about drugs from an INFORMED point of view, and leaving the choice of whether to try drugs up to them.

The hash-head headshop zombies have spoken!

Which, apparently, is three quarters of the Journal’s readers…

“Opponents argue, however, that making it legal to consume dangerous drugs is an open invitation for people to try them…and risk causing irreparable harm to themselves and their families as a result.”

Why is alcohol legal then? It causes a lot of misery and pain for families up and down the whole country…FACT!

You are talking about abuse to gain mental problems, unless you’ve a predisposition. Abuse occurs with over the counter drugs, alcohol and even food. There will always be abuse. Banning something cause of a few bad eggs is ridiculous.

@Aydo what about people who die instantly after taking their first Ecstasy? That’s not a person dead from your so-called abuse of drugs.

@Rory you’re not making much sense there. What figures have you got to back it up? People die from alcohol and alcohol related injuries with FAR greater frequency I’d imagine.

Leaving the supply of recreational drugs in the hands of criminals is likely to result in a lot more paranoia and other mental health problems than if these drugs were sold in a regulated environment.

As case in point being super-skunk. This stuff is downright dangerous but people who want to get stoned often have no choice and don’t really realize how dangerous the stuff can be.

@Shane – Aydo suggests that it is only people who abuse drugs who have damaging side effects, and that these people give it a bad name. The fact is that many drugs are very dangerous and volatile, and their reactions with different people cannot be predicted. Many people have died without “abusing” drugs.

@ Rory, get up the fuckin road with that arguement, i’ll direct you to Professor Nutt http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/4537874/Ecstasy-no-more-dangerous-than-horse-riding.html

Aydo there is a massive market in Dublin and other places for prescription drugs which are sold between other drug users, mental health patients get their strong medications each month and immediately sell on their valium and rohypnol to drug addicts who use them in conjunction with their heroin.

Legalise hash etc and we will have no way of stopping these people at all!

Rory thats exactly why it should be regulated!! Donal makes a very good point about the ‘super skunk’ varieties, which are far more likely to lead to mental health problems. If the goverment were regulating the industry then you would greatly reduce the risk associated with drugs, people are going to take them no matter what. The ‘war on drugs’ costs millions every year and for what benefit? Anytime there are any criminals arrested all the guards have done is make room for someone else.

@ shane
The gov wont regulate it. They may take their cut of tax but you can be sure that all other aspects will be left out to dry. We don’t even have proper mental health care now if drugs were legal it would be worse. If you have faith in the Gov to regulating the industry to lessen the risk to others, then your a fool.

@Gearoid a) They don’t acknowledge the sudden deaths of young people in that article. b) Your language is disgusting.

I’ll just say this, imagine they made alcohol, or even smokes illegal?
What would happen, would things be worse or better? I think we all know the answer. Far worse.

The fact is anyone can get drugs anywhere. The war is being fought and lost for years now. It costs a fortune.

The same people will take drugs that take drugs now when they are illegal.
Why would someone start smoking weed if it’s legal? They do it cause they enjoy it illegal or legal.

Most of these points about keeping drugs illegal are the same as saying cars should be limited to 40kph to save lives. Rubbish.

Rory I’ve know young lads who’ve dropped dead on the football pitch. Maybe we should ban the footy too.

Rory, you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about. Your argument is weak and misinformed. Go on, make a comeback to do with the fact that I post with a pseudonym, to try deflect the issue… or else hit us with some facts to back up your drivel.

What makes you think I want to stop smoking?

Look at how many people attend A&E every weekend due to alcohol related physical & mental injuries/problems

@Sovereign Being

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/7858800/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/2673163/

Believe it or not I actually read up on the facts of issues before making a decision.

The angry response to anyone criticising the harmful effects of even ‘recreational’ drugs is a sign of the huge problem we have with drugs in this country.

There’s your hard facts. And I have never complained about anyone using a pseudonym on here.

Rory
You argue like we have a choice of whether to have drugs available or not available. The drugs are here already and nothing done so far has come close to changing that, or are ever likely to.
Legalise and regulate and you mitigate many of the downsides of drug use. It wont solve the problems completely, just make things better

@Dave,

I very much agree that drugs are here to stay and we can do almost squat about them. What I’m saying is that people don’t understand the consequences of the legalisation of certain drugs. First of all, look at the case of the head shops, at magic mushrooms for example. The government was put under pressure to ban magic mushrooms after it caused a death. Look at how many people die after taking illegal drugs. We see the appeal of these drugs once they are legal – they are seen as being safe. This is not the case.

For all those suggesting that regulation will make the drugs safe- again look at the case of the head shops. They were caught out many times selling ‘legal highs to under 18′s.

Many say that ‘soft’ or ‘non-addictive’ drugs could or should be legalised, ask any doctor about the process of addiction, and you will find out the truth about addiction. You can become addicted to absolutely anything. There is no such thing as non-addictive drugs.

Once the State legalises anything previously illegal, it has a duty of care towards those citizens who indulge in the newly-legalised drugs. You cannot reserve ambulances or hospital beds for people who do not take drugs.

As regards people saying that fully mature adults should be allowed take whatever drugs they want, that is a rather petty argument. I take it that these people have never met a person on drugs on the street before. Your actions have effects on every other citizen of this country. Your argument is very selfish.

Rory.
ONE guy killed himself on mushrooms, while thousands take them each year (you know that the most potent mushrooms grow all over the place here during autumn / winter don’t you?)

We are lacking education. As I tried to explain to P Wurple above, psychedelics like mushrooms are supposed to be about reexamining yourself, facing your bottled up emotions and emerging out the other side – that’s why it’s called a “trip”.
Because these things are not treated with the respect that they once were, people take them at parties, and if they have unresolved issues, or dont know the scale of what they are getting into – that trip is not going to be a good one.

Our government banned substances that make up part of certain spiritual practices, because a couple of uneducated people didnt treat it with respect. It was a knee jerk reaction..

By the same token, teenagers and drinkers fill A&E at the weekend, should alcohol be banned? And if not why the hypocrisy? Alcohol has been demonstrated time and time again to be far more harmful than these substances, but it’s socially acceptable..

You know the reason behind their demonisation is primarily religious don’t you? The “witches” of the bible, the word translated as witches is Pharmakeia, meaning drugs.. It was due to this that their use fell out of the same levels we would see alcohol used at now.

Pre-Christianity, their use was a part of “coming of age”, as it remains in indigenous cultures.. A rite of passage into adulthood, supervised by an elder.

It’s the lack of education and respect for these substances that is the problem, not necessarily the substance itself.

Compelling argument

You’re right, no drugs suck – they’re ALL great (with some minor exceptions.)

@ Gary, yeah that aspirin stuff is lethal, isn’t it?

They might be dumbasses, but should society declare them criminals? A criminal record is no joke!

It already is pretty acceptable amongst young people.

As for the mental health infrastructure – I wouldnt trust them anyway.. Of all the drugs I have ever taken it was the mental health services drugs that almost killed me.

5000%?? And you know this how?!

And yet every country that has introduced decriminalisation or legalisation has actually shown a decrease in consumption. Look at holland and portugal for examples.

Oh, yeah. Consuption will decrease, let them take what they want and they will die faster – therefore, consuption will decrease.

Counterexample for you – after smoking was banned in many public places – consuption actually decreased.

Heart Attacks Decreased After Public Smoking Ban In Italy
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080211172539.htm

The rest of the stuff is bla, bla, bla.

@ Eamonn

Do you think the models that work in Holland & Portugal can work here? It’be Murphy’s law that it would have the complete opposite effect. I certainly would not have faith in the Gov to regulate an industry like this.

Gill Jones, I cant see any reason why not. The government already regulates recreational drugs such as alcohol and nicotine.

@ angryzes

that’s nonsense…..all of it

I am anti- drugs but I think we need to be realistic. I have met so many people who use marijuana- they know they are breaking the law but they like it.
As I said before, I think drinkers cause way more social problems than hash smokers.
They tried banning alcohol back in the twenties in the USA and it was a disaster. Drink is a drug- we just choose to call it something else.

Don’t be so quick to assume I’ve not only never done illegal drugs, I lost a sibling to a heroin overdose and I believe drugs need to be either decriminalised or legalised.

I’m no fan of them but I’m a realist. The current “war” HAS NOT WORKED. Repeated studies have shown this. Another approach is urgently required.

I didn’t understand a single sentence to be honest.. :-)

firstly comparing Marijuana to Heroin shows you have no clue what you are talking about.
Next you be saying Marijuana it the ultimate gateway drug to harder stuff. Rubbish, is water the gateway drug to alcoholics.
Its a personal choice, and choice I should be allowed to make.

Any ways its very unlikely too many people make far too much money with it being outlawed and i am not talking about criminals here, well criminals in office and parliaments around the world.

Donncha, I don’t agree with you. I would rather deal with someone smoking weed than someone on coke or pulled up. Too much if anything is bad- too much dope makes you dopey and uninterested in doing anything.

I think all drugs including drink should be regulated and sold in specific shops like drink in Scandinavia.

I think with all the drug selling being underground, there is a lot of associated crime with gangs and petty theft. At least if it is taxed and regulated, it would be more controlled.

Good comment Gary!

sounds like your preference of drugs are ok but anything your idiotic mind does not like should be banned it amazes me you can make it across a road without falling down a manhole go educate yourself

Marijuana “can render many vegetative”………………..”the most destructive substances that society would allow because addicts….”

where did you get this info? …..

cannabis isn’t addictive per say….and certainly never rendered anyone in a vegetative state

I agree with some of this. But legalising drugs would also result in 1 thing you haven’t factored in. Education. Right now the stigma around drugs is as dangerous & reckless as the prohibition that spawned it. The stigma has led to the situation where correct & valid information about drugs is not available to people, particularly young people. True harm reduction cannot be implemented until the flow of information/education no longer is guided by an biased narrative, paid for by people with an undeclared agenda.

You are correct to point out that bringing it all under regulation would take a lot of time to implement fully, especially at an international level, but this heel dragging should not be allowed to stop the things that can be done right now to improve the situation. For example, a city like Dublin with a terrible generational heroin problem, or a city like Cork, which is beginning to follow Dublin down this road now, would benefit from heroin being changed from a criminal problem to a social/public health problem, at the user/ addicted-street dealer level. Give the current addicts a clean doctor prescribed product and end the crime, deprivation of communities, & most importantly, stop the next generation of junkies, whom are invariably actually created by the current generation in their never ending hunt for money for their next hit.

I’d agree with you on both points – the importance of education and also the requirement to see drug use as a social/health issue.

Government/law enforcement need to show some more imagination on the subject, and perhaps more intellectual rigour – by seeking evidence-based studies into drug abuse and drug abusers, rather than using simple Mr Mackie talk (“drugs -r – baaad, M’kay? If you do drugs, then your baaad, M’kay?”)

However, I don’t think drugs should need to be legalised for this to happen.

Bren, it’s not all about taxes. The fact is it costs very little to produce most drugs and if drugs are cheap then gangs won’t be involved. People could grow their own marijuana in peace and purchase heroin or cocaine in measured, quality controlled amounts. Of course it won’t solve all problems, but most of the big problems of prohibition will be significantly reduced. Removing the profit from international drug gangs could change the world, especially for countries like mexico, Afghanistan and others like them.