I’m surprised by the responses of some on here. Regardless of the question, everyone is entitled to their opinion. To resort to name calling or rubbishing someone’s opinion just because you disagree with that opinion contradicts the principles of a free and tolerant Europe, and country. The irony is that those with strong views about tolerance are intolerant of those who disagree with them.

It is one thing for these soldiers to be court martialled for deserting their posts in the 1940s. However the black listing of them for several years afterwards was pure spite. That is why they should be pardoned.

Despite whatever ideological motives these men may have had, and despite the rightness of the anti-fascist cause they fought for, these men were guilty of desertion which is a serious dereliction of duty. By joining the army, you essentially agree to obey any lawful order you are given and it is not for you to decide yourself whether the course of action being ordered by the government is right or wrong or best for the country or indeed humanity as a whole.

Had these men been court-martialed on their return and dishonourably discharged, I would have no problem with that. However, the manner in which they were denied a court martial, where at least they would have been able to mount a defence, and way they were blacklisted and abysmally treated, coupled with the fact that it was Nazi Germany that they went to fight, means that I believe the state owes them an apology and that after all these years the only appropriate apology would be a full pardon.

It would be interesting to get comments from our senior citizens on this as they were different times with different values and pressures. Are the present generation the right people to be judging those who went off to fight in the ww ?

Here is a thought. If 5,000 present day Irish army soldiers decided to up sticks and go off and fight in Iraq, Afghanistan or Libya because they were fighting evil dictators what would be the sentiment here? The 3,500 soldiers who didn’t desert and stayed behind would be all that we would have to carry out the functions of the defence forces. We might not be under military threat but I’m sure that the military law that exists now is the same as then. There is a mate of mine in the Leb at the moment and I’m sure that he doesn’t like what’s going on in Syria but I can’t see him saying fuck this for a game of soldiers I’m of to fight evil dictators. That is because he is a soldier that has taken an oath and follows orders.

Forgive me if I am incorrect but the debate should not be framed in terms of desertion. These men, along with others, deserted the Irish army in a time of a national emergency, breaking their contract and their oath. However, they were not alone. Others deserted but did not fight. Upon the return of the deserters who fought with the British, these particular deserters were singled out for punitive measures while others were not. If desertion was simply the charge, the Irish state should have acted consistently across the board and, if it was applied, such punishment of all deserters would have been the right of the state. However, the singling out of particular deserters betrayed petty prejudice and the particular mode of punishment (leaving them and their families to effectively starve) was cruel and unusual in that it targeted the innocent families. The punishment has far outweighed the crime and enough time has passed that these men should be fully rehabilitated with an apology for the cruel and unusual punishment meted out by the anti-British state.

Can someone who voted against a full pardon please explain why?

Anyone who thinks they should receive a full pardon knows little about military law. These were men in an army. They weren’t boy scouts. They knew what they were doing and if they chose to desert and abandon their country they should be prepared to live with the consequences.

More importantly, I think giving a full pardon now is indicative of how we as a nation feel about ourselves. We seem to care more about how we are seen by others! (Ask Enda!) I understand that this feeling of low self esteem is the result of being oppressed but really think it’s time we stood up and got off our knees.

While saying that, at this stage I think we should just forget it as I think we can safely assume they won’t do it again but deserters in any other nation’s army would have been dealt with more harshly. Get real!

@Gav. Yes it works both ways. If you undertake to defend Ireland in her army and them desert to join any other army then of course you should be entitled to leniency under the law.

No. You can’t run an army if you tolerate disobedience. The army is the very last place that can afford disobedience. Disobedience kills, particularly in high-pressure environments that a soldier may find himself in.
Ireland remained neutral during WWII. These men who abdicated to join the British Army jeopardized our neutrality.
Would we be as tolerant of Irish soldiers who left to fight for the Germans? We should be tolerant of neither, and pardon neither, because we trained them to be Irish soldiers, to defend Ireland, even if that ultimately meant that they may not actually fight a war.

This is a no brainer for me. There must be a full pardon. The members of our defences have always stood by our country when needed most. They fought against one of the greatest acts of evil ever known to be mankind and we should be proud of that. I am.

I’m astounded it took this long. How soon after WWII did we know about the holocaust? That’s exactly the maximum amount of time it should have taken to issue pardons. And medals.

“On their return from fighting WWII, the men were denied pay and pensions, banned from working for the State and their names were essentially black-listed in what were known as “starvation orders”.”

To ban whose who were fighting against German nazi in WWII? I’m shocked. Really. Terribly shocked. Honest.

Having read the comments down this far, I have to get my tuppence worth in here. There is a lot of talk of nation, oaths, duty etc. Our nation at the time was a benign dictatorship, under the rule of a Spanish American megalomaniac, the Roman Catholic Church had too much of a say in the day to day running of the country. Dev hated the British and anyone who sided with them. A lot of these “deserters” saw Dev standing back and doing nothing to help in the fight against Nazism. Their only way of becoming an effective part in the fight was to join one of the armies of the Allies. The closest being the British army. Yes, deserting the Irish Army was wrong and against the law but our nation at the time was a banana republic and guarding turf stacks was not going to defeat the Nazis. History shows us that Dev was always a vindictive man, even from before the Rising, so when he got the chance to show us just how powerful he was, he took it.
The government should not only pardon these men and women, they should apologise on behalf of the state.

In my eyes they are heroes of Ireland. They along with the British army fought to defeat Hitler and his Nazis. They were made to feel like traitors by their fellow Irish men and woman. They feared to show their medals incase what punishment would be bestowed on them. We should be proud of our Irishmen who fought in the World Wars and other international conflicts. To this day Irish service men and women are working alongside the UN to bring and maintain peace, for example Lebanon.

I hope the Government will give full pardons to those who were ‘blacklisted’ and apologise to their families.

Dave the reason we speak English is because another evil country invaded murdered starved enslaved and pillaged our country so at least we’d be use to it.

We should stop calling these men deserters. They would ,in the main be men of working class who would have considered it a necessity to provide for their families. I am old enough to remember some of these men. All the people who knew them, in my memory , considered them very brave men and as Irish as anybody.

A full pardon would be inappropriate. These men did desert in a period of great danger to the state they served. If they had done it, to any other army in Europe, irregardless of the time, they would have been tried, jailed and death sentences would be common.

When you sign up and agree to play by the rules, the only way any org. esp. an army can be run, then you break them in the most profound way possible, it is some cheek to turn around and ask for a blind eye to be turned. They avoided jail time, what more do they want. ???

Running away from a safe position into a hostile position is not deserting, dont know why it is been termed that.

Of course they should be pardoned, as well as hailed for standing up for the greater good. Rather than staying neutral, they decided to fight against one of the most infamous and evil dictators in history. They would be hailed in any other nation as heroes, not shunned as deserters. The fact that they volunteered to do this adds to their bravery and commitment to do the right thing.

As a group of heroes that we, as a nation, can be wholeheartedly proud, they definitely should be pardoned but I think that Tom McGurk quote raises an important point. In another context they could have been imprisoned or hanged for desertion. Punishment of these men at the time was not random and vindictive, they did actually break the law. But again I am totally in favour of a pardon which is long overdue to a courageous Irish group who fought the tyranny of the nazis.

Should Ireland seek a pardon from the world for not doing enough to stop that tyrant from eliminating so many people and cultures? Not playing a full part in protecting the Allied cause was a major reason for Ireland stagnating after WWII even Germany benefitted from the Marshall plan. When the Americans declared war, Ireland should have rowed in with the rest of the free world as a nation who stood clearly on the side of freedom.

Didn’t Dev & his FF send a letter offering condolences to the Germans on the death of Hitler ! Dipshit!

Pardon, definitely. Setting sail from Dev’s artificial Gaelic paradise, fighting against the Nazis making a real difference, how could what they did be viewed as truly immoral?
Some would argue that they dumped their Ireland uniform and became subjects of the crown and thus deserved their fate.
It’s worth noting that Ireland at that time was a revolutionary nation with limited and narrow revolutionary ideas towards how it’s citizens should behave.

Plus, If they had stayed they would just have been armed guards for the transfer of money from credit unions anyway.

While I commend anyone who fought against Nazi Germany – I feel it was wholly inappropriate to desert the Irish army during the war. Ireland’s defence was poor enough and we needed to maintain the little defence that we had. They made their bed – which is fine, but don’t expect a state pension for it.

No pardon. And for those eager to get red thumbing think and respond to this. What happened to British Soldiers that deserted their army ? Hint : jail.

Yes, most definitely they should be pardoned.

Although I have a question. Why has it taken so long? Many of those men fought the good fight against an evil, evil person. The fact that they joined the British army is irrelevant. They (the Allies) defeated Hitler. For that they should have been honoured. Imagine what the world would be like today, if Hitler was allowed to continue doing what he did.

It’s sad that many of those men will never know that they have been pardoned, but at least it has been done Better late than never I suppose, and maybe their families will take some peace from it.

Back in the 1940s. deserters be it from Japanese, German, American, Russian, or British armies the penalty for desertion was to be shot. These days its life imprisionment. Its a very serious offence and these men.should not be pardoned. If operation green (hitlers plan for Ireland, where Ireland would be invaded to be closer to Britian) or even the British invaded to use the ports. These men signed up to be protect IRELAND and they failed in their duty. I’m am not sure of the numbers but will those who deserted to join Hitlers army also be pardoned ? We are neutral so i expect that is the case.

Nice to see that as of 10.27am on the 25th of January there are only 3 morons voting for NO PARDON. With 40 people living in the real world.

Of course they should be pardoned, these brave souls went to out to fight an unimaginable evil and in doing so were shunned by certain people in Government, namely De Velera They should be honoured for their actions…

so to all the people who think they shouldn’t be granted are pardon you are all selfish, and without these kind of people would now be living under a nazi regime, they didnt fight to protect England, it was just their only opportunity to fight to protect Europe. some of u people are unbelievable

Shame what our government did to these brave people sickens me….

Most of the so called deserters were married mane with children and DeValera’s Starvation Orders had appalling consequences on totally innocent families.
Ireland was not at war but was clearly at risk from Germany and it could be rationally argued that fighting with the British was merely disobeying orders rather than desertion and defending Ireland at the same time.
They should be pardoned without delay.

We are under German rule here. Grant the full pardons.

Of course they should be pardoned. If they hadn’t done what they did we’d all be owned by the Germans now.

Oh. Wait.

I have to agree with DublinNaas on this one. I served 10 years in the army (yes the Irish army, my dad is from Cabra where’s yours from?) and I would question the motives.
Did they go because they believed Hitler was evil? Probably not, it was far more likely the reason given above.

And desert they did and we were under threat of invasion. What would these 5000 men have been able to do if the Allies had carried out the plan to invade Ireland. There was a plan, it was considered and it was ruled out. It was ruled out because Ireland was a lot less neutral than everyone believed but the plan did exist and the reality was that the Americans and British were in a far better position to invade Ireland than the Germans.

Elrat, Dev did send a letter of condolence, however it was the correct diplomatic protocol and Dev was a great man for protocol. I am no fan of Dev by the way.

After visiting Auschwitz just a few hours ago, all I can say is Thank God the Nazis were stopped! If there was an official way to get your release from here then join the Allies, im sure they would have done that.but obviously they had no choice but to desert.

I really have to wonder why people refer to them as “Irish Soldiers” they were not Irish soldiers just a bunch of mercaneries wandering looking for the biggest pay check, they signed up to play the age old game of Imperialism for mother Britannia at the sake of their brothers and sisters at home. We live in the Irish Republic, I like to believe that we are above other nations Imperial pasts and land grabbing ways, I like to believe we believe in the advancement of humanity and the abolishment of war, and I like to beleive we would never lend a hand to further the old colonial powers thirst for land and spoils which is either Germany or Britain as they are as bad as each other. “Campaign for a pardon strengthens on the back of official calls from Stormont”, it is pathetic to this day to imagine that there are many within our land still jumping to outside influences. They had the neck to come home and they already got the greatest gift Ireland could give them and can ever give them, and that was letting them off so easily, in any other country they would have been put against a wall and plugged with bullets.

It has been established that there were those who deserted for less valiant reasons than those who fought in WWII, and though it’s not right to desert an army, why would any of us in our 21st century comfortable armchairs begrudge pardon to those involved in what is, quite frankly,a relatively harmless event that happened nearly 70 years ago? It is begrudging, there is nothing to be achieved and no lesson to be learned by not awarding these pardons, especially considering how much it will mean to their families;

There are two things crossing over here, and they need to be treated separately;
1- these men were enlisted soldiers in the Irish Army, and they deserted.
They should be court-marshalled and punished according to the military code, including imprisonment, dishonourable discharge, and denial of wage/pension.

2-these men went to fight against the tyranny of nazism and many died and many were injured. Some did it for adventure, some to defend freedom, and many did it for the money (including 2 of my uncles)

They should be admired, but definitely NOT pardoned

disgraceful ignorant attitude Gary. I knew one of these men..a newly commissioned officer at outbreak of war..was cinvinced our leaders would do the right thing after Dunkirk. When it didnt happen he deserted and joined the British Army..along with over 40000 other non.deserters..hecserved in north africa..sicily and italy..a hero. with your holier than thou attitude Gary you would have been an appeaser back then like thosr who stood by while Hitler annexed czechoslovakia and austria. As for Mr McGurk..having listened to him.on rte news his grasp of history is pretty thin..he referred to the soviet union as being neutral at start of ww2..tell that to the people of eastern.poland lithuania estonia and latvia and also finland. the ribbentrop/molotov non.aggression.pact divided poland between the two evil.empires.

about time these heros are regonised even if they did leave the defence forces here

Let’s not forget that while most of your grandparents were sitting and eating potatoes after mass, the U.K. was the only thing keeping them from having to study the German language.

No pardon.No way.They fought for queen and country.There was Irish army then too.Turncoats should hang their heads in shame to this day.

Ireland was neutral? Ye, it definitively was. Even more than that, Ireland granted asylum to WWII war criminals after 1945.

these men are now in their late 80′s early 90′s there are nothing like 5000 of them left let them live out their days with this monkey off their back.

If we had been at war then they would have deserved their treatment but we weren’t, even though we were subject to nazi bombing. Our country took a cowardly stance and these men refused to follow it. As far as I am aware, the oath taken for the army includes a moral clause of sorts and I would consider their actions to fall under that clause.

Desertion yes, but condemned without trail; no, to say nothing of the personal penalising of them through reducing their possibility of employment and the destruction of their family life through poverty and the back-pocketing of their British Family Allowance into Irish Government coffers. You need to know the full story.

That’s fair enough Patrick. The term was a little harsh considering all that had been gone through. I still feel that the punishment of these soldiers was carried out in an unjust fashion even if I may have allowed my typing to get away from me.

Just because their government during WW2 made a deal with the Hitler Empire not to keep their freedom and to be ruled by Germans after they defeat Britain. 10,000 Irish soldiers where willing to give their life to keep their freedom like their freedom fighter before them. Being a former US Marine I understand them and a pardon is the least they should receive. My family lost two family members in WW2 one first generation Irish and one first generation Polish fighting to free Europe. Free your them, fight for them, all gave some, some gave all

Different nationality, different view….
For my opinion Ireland have 5000 heros more! There is no doubt about it. The soldiers dicided to leave the irish army to fight again occupation, imperialism and inhumanity. Each person is reponsable to his own conscience, not to an oath. For example: Many german soldiers thought the oath on the Fuehrer is more important then humanity. Isn´t it the same with the britsh soldiers who shoot at the bloody sunday?
Any human have the right to deserting from a army, sometimes is this the better way.
I thanks a lot this 5000 irish people, in the name off my perents, off my childrens and in the name off all my friends. I think the most off the german and austrian people thinks like me.
To give pardon isn´t enough! Give them all a medal!
—sorry for my bad english—

They did desert so a pardon would be a strange decision I feel unless the state are now saying Deserting in 21st century Ireland is okay and the law back then was wrong. Which would be a little mad,

The families should receive an apology for the poor treatment of these men in the post war era. But in comparative terms given they joined an army which they were at war with just 30 years before they probably got off lightly to what the punishment would have been in a lot of other countries.

Like padriag I totally agree with you there….and I think the word “Deserted” is very harsh and is also a very big “dramatisation” and it makes it sound that they committed a brutal war crime which the didn’t all they did was fight to protect our freedom against Hitler because the Irish army did not want to participate in the war which is completely understandable but they shouldn’t blame the people who did not want to stand around and watch the world fall apart!

This wasn’t just a backyard fight,these men chose to fight a war that if lost meant world conquest. Going on what we know today and all politics aside I think they are true hero’s and should get a full pardon and respect they deserve.

I find it ironic that this matter, whatever its merits, has led to a worm-like politician herald that these soldiers actions had “contributed to the future of freedom and democracy in Europe”, when it is now clear that Germany has gained control of that once free Europe and, as usual, has not a single care, wish nor a moment of respect for democracy. 100 years later, nothing has changed.