Everybody’s pay should refelct their contribution to their role, not their qualifications. If you have two people with PhDs, one cures Alzheimers and one teaches lower level maths for the LC, which one merits more pay?

I take it that the 23 thumbs down think that the guy who cures Alzheimers should be paid the same as the guy who teaches pass maths. Well you can’t account for craziness.

crazy comparison, you wouldnt have to pay the one who found the cure, he would receive a nobel prize and the couple of quid that goes with it, what’s with all these stupid attacks on teachers?, nothing is more important than education, it isnt their fault the inspection system falls short, its a departmental issue, but as usual the negative focus is turned towards those on the lowest rung of the ladder

So all the PhDs do don’t win a noble prize should teach lower level maths? :)

is that comment supposed to mean something tom? lost on me whatever is it is

Just following your logic Paul. :)

I note that you did not answer directly so I will ask again.

Two guys with PhDs, one cures Alzheimers (and doesn’t get a Nobel Prize but makes a huge contribution to world health and makes billionaires of out his employer, a pharmaceutical company who owns the patent), and the other guys teaches lower level junior cert maths.

Both have the same qualifications. Do they merit the same pay?

Proof, if it were needed that we should pay on performance and incentivise people to achieve greatness, not just academic qualifications.

yes Tom, i didnt answer your question because i find the comparison to be ludicrous

why not just say theres 2 elephants, one big and one small, do they both deserve first prize in the big competition?

Exactly Paul. Now we are getting places with your elephant analagy.

So if the small elephant has a HDip, and the big elephant doesn’t, you think the smaller elephant should get 1st prize for being the bigger elephant?

That’s just bonkers.

I’m beginning to feel like an elephant now myself. :)

yes tom but i am pointing out how ludicrous your comparison is, no i dont think a junior cert teacher should be paid as much as someone that goes about curing the incurable, no one is suggesting that they should be, i do think that in order to attract well qualified teachers into a field that has the utmost need of them, there must be incentive

So Paul,

In conclusionand based on your last submission, it would appear as though you agree with my assessment that pay should be based on how one performs in the role with the added proviso from you that we need to attract top quality graduates into teaching.

Well good news there. There’s a recession so brighter kids are already attracted to the secure pensionable job.

:)

so then should they be paid extra for unruly student? like say an extra €50 a week for every child that is difficult? they cant know before they apply if they will be good or not, so there is no incentive to attain higher education

Not paid for having an unruly student, but paid extra for turning that unruly student around.

There are no ‘extra’ qualifications really! All teacher must have a degree and a postgrad(h-dip) most teachers who have masters do them part-time while they work/later on in their profession.

I’d pay them extra if they taught the parents how to you the apostrophe.

Because in the rhetorical case of yous, the PhD or Masters scientist will be doing a different job. Teachers won’t. It should be the same money for the same job unless they outperform other people at their grade.

I realise the irony of my typo. :)

@Tom If you’re going to be pedantic, you might as well not mess up your own words.

Touché Ken. :)

Touche or touchy?

Leigh, I was going to say “Touché” but you may have thought that was in replied to your question rather than a confirmation of my earlier post, at which my point my subsequent response could have been interpreted as touchy. :)

Dara, if you had bothered to read, I did suggest that we do not base everything on exam results, but base performance related pay on exams based on exam results and take into account the factors which you mentioned.
I even suggested “staggered” targets based on historical results for that teacher.

Measure other things as well. Give sports teachers extra bonuses if their kids do well at national or international level.

I’m all for paying for good performance and not paying for poor performance.

BTW your opening question of “Tom, is it?” was going to elicit a response of “No it’s not. Look carefully at my name.” I could have confused you for hours.:)

For some reason I’m no longer able to be logged in with my twitter account. Or cannot figure out how to…
Tom, I think you misunderstood the opening of my comment “Tom – is it?” I was asking if a better measure of a teacher’s ability is how their students fare in exams. Not asking your name in a rude manner. It was not my intention to come across as disrespectful.

This is Dara again btw!

OK, no offence taken. My misinterpretation, happens to the best of us.

I agree that academic qualifications and results aren’t everything, but where I am coming from is that so many schools are underperforming academically because there is little incentive to help students achieve for SOME teachers.

SOME teachers are brilliant. Even my old Irish teacher was excellent (though I had no interest in it). However I am thinking about teachers who get a HDip, then sit on their rear ends for 30 years. I had a few myself and most would have been sacked.

I’m a big fan of paying teachers who go the extra mile a little extra. Those who manage the hurling team, produce the school musical, organise the trip to France etc, all very worthy, and all worthy of extra recognition.

If by half you mean 2.5% have no qualifications in the subject…

Parents are forking out money for grinds because they want their children to get into the elite professions. They are prepared to pay extra to get extra. There are no special needs in the grind schools.

Parents are forking out money for grinds to give their children every opportunity to be the best they can be, and to give them a chance to pursue a career in whatever area they choose. I recently had occasion to overhear a teacher boast about how all of her students had gotten A’s and B’s in her honours maths class in the leaving cert. What she failed to mention was that 17 out of the 19 students were getting grinds to achieve these results. I don’t know how this would be factored into giving successful teachers more pay….

Mark,

In many jobs you do not get paid more based on qualifications. Some qualifications allow you to earn more money directly, eg. as an accountant or doctor, but if you have a raft of qualifications and they do not allow or prevent you from doing a job, then you should not get more money. Simples.

If they extra qualifications help you become a better teacher, and then you get paid more indirectly because you had these qualifications, then fair play.

Reward success. It’s a simple idea but it might just work.

Tom,
It is impossible to assess teachers based on their performance. If a teacher starts working in a school with students who are at an F level and the teacher works with the student to bring them to a C level, then that is a success. Similarly, students who start at a C level and go to an A level witht he effort of the teacher. So even though both teachers might be excellent, they will not be rewarded the same if the pay is based on results.

So if teachers are not rewarded based on qualifications, all teachers will be on the same level of pay, whether they are a good or bad teacher. That is making the assumption that the qualifications make them better that their job, which they should if the qualification is from a reputable institute.

Mark,

I have suggested, several time in this thread, that we take those factors into account.

:)

Allan I got my Masters in 1998, undergrad in 1997, FE1s in 2010, QFAs in 2011….want me to go on.

I get paid based on teh work I do, not on the letters after my name.

I’ll tell you what Tom, next time there is a poll asking how much you deserve to be paid you can bring that up.

A masters degree and that’s your best argument? I get paid based on my work. If I perform poorly, I get paid pooorly. If I perform well, I get paid well. So in essence there is a poll being done on how much I get paid every single month. :) And I have no problem with that.

And rather than being paid by the taxpayer, I am contributing very handsomely to your salary.

Now that comment is proof that a Masters degree of itself does not make one any more qualified to instruct children in the ways of the world. :)

So I have no problem with a poll on my salary because I see the poll results every single month.

That wasn’t an argument Tom, you replied with a non sequitur, I replied in kind. You with all the letters after your name should have recognised that, eh?

Lol!!!1! Buuuurrrrrrnnnnnn!!!!!!!!
He got you there Tom

Oh Allan, your subtlety amazes me, but we live in different worlds. I am assuming therefore that your original argument that the world owes you because you did a masters was also non sequiter.

We live in different worlds. I say what I mean. It appears that you agree with me so.

I work full time and go to college on my two days off. It costs a hell of a lot of money. I’m doing it for myself Allan. Suck it up and get on with it.

It boils down to this. If masters degrees etc made one a better teacher, no teacher with a masters degree would need to fear anything if they moved to a performance based bonus system, which was run fairly (not the Croke Park Agreement which was “money for jam”.)

@tom your argument is only focusing on one thing i.e. performance in work, while this is a valid point and one i agree with, you are conveniently not mentioning the fact that with most well paid careers you are extremely unlikely to be offered employment without a decent level of education in the first place, so why would a job that requires a post-grad standard not pay at least something approaching a private sector job?

Paul,

On one level you are right. In most well paid careers you are unlikely to get paid a high salary without reaching a certain level of education but you have missed two vital points here.

1. You’re starting at a result and looking back. yes successful people are well educated but most well educated people are not necessarily successful. e.g. physiotherapists earn bugger all in private practice. More importantly those who do earn money do so because of how they perform at work. You can two accountants with identical qualifications. One guy takes a cushy job in a civil service and has job security, one sets up a practice and goes out and wins new business, complex business where results determine whether or not you get paid or expand your client base. Now both are clever, well educated and do a bang up job, but do they deserve to be paid the same?

2. Secondly many teachers with qualifications simply do not perform. Getting extra money for doing a post grad is of itself no use to the pupils. If the teacher uses their acquired skills to be better teachers, then yes pay them more. But don’t pay them just because they did a qualification.

wrong tom, it is you that is looking at this backwards, you cannot get the job and prove performance before you get the degree, the performance issue is one of supervision or more precisely the lack of any. i had some excellent teachers and some terrible ones, the suitability of different people is a completely different issue, the fault for hiring the wrong people lies elsewhere, in order to attract the right calibre of people the money has to be ok

Paul,

I imagine that you sit infront of the fire at home and say “Give me some heat, then I will provide the fuel.”

Take it easy.

no, i happen to disagree with you, i will advise you that this is likely to happen when you air your opinion on a public forum, with this statement “I imagine that you sit infront of the fire at home and say “Give me some heat, then I will provide the fuel.” you are one step away from saying only your own opinion is valid

Don’t get so offended Paul.

I am merely pointing out that it seems that you believe reward should come before performance.

If you disagree, argue your point.

Good man Tom, keep up the good fight, you aren’t coming across as arrogant and pig-headed at all. All those red thumbs are just jealous of your obvious encyclopaedic knowledge of education.
Tell me though, you’re obviously the man to ask
1. Why has every country that has taken on payment by results reversed their decision?
Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the majority of teachers do not have an exam class?
Or maybe it’s because there isn’t a test in the world that can tell you what a junior infant should have achieved versus what it did achieve?
Or maybe it’s because there is no standardised test to measure progress in art, or PE or Drama or SPHE that every primary teacher in the country is required to teach.
Or maybe it’s that it is virtually impossible to compare a class of 28 eight year olds all in second against a class of 23 comprised of junior infants, senior infants, 1st and 2nd which is very common in Ireland?
Or maybe you just don’t know what the hell you are talking about?

Sorry Sham, but not a real name = not a credible post. Come back with a real name and we’ll talk then.

Would love to work in a job where I could belittle public servants over a six hour period Tom. But as you know I’m a teacher and I’m working hard all day.

Hard work deserves to be rewarded. I’d pay you extra Fintan.

Condescension is unbecoming Tom. The thumbs have spoken. Goodnight.

And in many they aren’t.

+1

Hi Jason,

Thanks for the comment. Just wondering where you see the inaccuracies in the report? The figures are taken from the Department’s latest data but if you have any further information, feel free to send me a mail on sinead@thejournal.ie

Cheers,
Sinead

Irish teachers are amongst the best paid in Europe with at least 7 weeks more holidays that their counterparts in Britain for e.g.
Teachers please get real you have delusions about your qualifications
Go into the private sector and see how you will be paid

Surely a better measure of a teacher’s ability is how their students fare in exams?

Granted incentive is something teachers could do with, at the same time encouraging teachers through financial gain to get more from their students would have the wrong results altogether.

So if work in a nice middle class area with supportive parents it’s happy days! But can you imagine the look on the teachers face when a new boy with autism turns up at the school, or a family from the Philippines with little or no English? Bye bye new TV
Judging a teacher by results is crude at best, damaging to education at worst.

Agree with Allan there. Teachers are responsible for their teaching, not for students’ learning – they can motivate and they can teach the material and they can support, but at the end of the day they’re not the ones sitting the tests. I’ve seen extraordinary teachers in rough schools who are doing amazing work, but even ‘reaching’ a student isn’t going to compensate for years of that student being in a home environment where learning wasn’t prioritised or may have been actively discouraged. If a student like that stays in school, or passes, or gets a C, it’s a success, but that doesn’t necessarily show up on results-based rewards for teachers.

I went to a very “unsuccessful” school, but some teachers consistently achieved higher results with the same students than others. They should be paid more. Simples.

Claire, you make a valid point, some teachers do amazing work in amazing circumstances. In that case, compensate then extra for that amazing work. It doesn’t have to be based purely on results. But in schools where crap teachers get crap results and great teachers get great results with the same kids, then reward the good teachers.

Season 4 – The Wire

Tom, I think if there was a reasonable and measured way of assessing teachers’ performances it’d definitely be worth it, yes. But it’d have to be a whole lot more complex than just looking at results! :)

Maybe Claire, but the question is should they be paid on qualifications, and the answer to that is resounding No.

I think staggered targets based on a school’s previous results would be good. I went to a horrendously underachieving school. Not to blow my own trumpet, but my academic success was was in spite of, not because of some of my teachers, though I did have a couple of excellent teachers. Surprise, surprise, they got consistently higher results.

Claire, there is always a way to measure things. Stagger the targets based on previous results for example.

If someone has a raft of qualifications and their LC or JC students consistently show poor performance and don’t improve, then their extra qualifications are meaningless.

Provide teachers with an incentive to help kids.

Based on results?
Bad idea.
It would mean that every teacher that gets landed with a few Special Needs kids wouldn’t get a raise.
Not fair.
It also would create a situation whereby the teachers that are tight with the Principal or whomever does the scheduling gets the “good” kids that perform well, while the teachers that speak-up get the dunces.

Joe, based on results but accounting for things such as special needs, social class and historical views that a school might be rubbish. We pay in the private sector based on results and the world keeps turning.

Can I respectfully ask why a teach should be paid based on the results of her students? Would teachers who take ordinary level classes get paid less? How do you pay primary school teachers? In 1911 an educationalist wrote a pamphlet decrying the British education system ad applied in Ireland. It encouraged teachers to only teach high achievers and was called payment by results. The pamphlet was called The Murder Machine. The educationalist was Patrick Pearse.

Fintan my wife is a public servant and a very hard working one at that. Personally I was very fortunate to have one truly excellent teacher,Dinny Burke.

But not every suggestion is an attack on public servants and the ASTI are making no friends with this.

My old alma mater had woeful results, so much so that many teachers including our principal refused to send their kids there. While it would be unreasonable to expect results comparable to Gonzaga, or Mount Anville due to the obvious social class difference, it would not be unreasonable to stipulate that Fethard raise its academic standard to that of a compatable school.

I obviously won’t name the rubbish teachersbut I would have no problem in a teachet like Dinny Burke earning 20k more than some of his colleagues in Fethard.

As for the mechanics of it, set a standard based on average grades achieved in the previous five years exams. Then take four years to implement so you can average out your honours and pass classes and watch their grades rise.

As for attacking public servants…just under performing ones. I’m sure you know some of the teachers I have in mind with whom I compared Dinny Burke. I think good teachers deserve good salaries.

Tom, you don’t get it. Basing payment on the results achieved by various different cohorts of students is a fallacy. I didn’t teach leaving cert history last year, do I get a pay cut. Two years ago I didn’t have a junior cert class. I’d work for free that year, yeah? With all your qualifications you’d think you’d have figured that paying teachers by the standard of their students is a recipe for social mayhem especially in a small town, like the one you’re from, which you said you wouldn’t name btw. I don’t teach kids to get them results, I teach them so they’re sometimes better people having had an education.

Fintan, I said I wouldn’t name the rubbish teachers. The fact that I am from Fethard is freely available from my FB profile.
As regards teaching pass classes …not sure if you saw my comment about going back over previous years. I should probably have expanded that further.

Finally you’ll be happy to know that I’ll be doing a 12 hour day tomorrow…so no unruly behavour from me…

Good night.

The Germans are giving us money (at low rates of interest compared to the bond markets) to pay for teachers etc. Left to our own devices, and without outside funding, PS wages would need to be slashed by 30%.

You can blame the Germans for our problems, but can´t ignore the maths. The government can´t currentky cover PS wages and SW with the taxes they are taking in.

The Germans are “giving “us nothing they are loaning us money at a profit ,most of which is being used to repay their banks for the mistakes they made in their misjudged lending to Irish Banks!

So you maintain that if Ireland had no access to outside funding then we could still pay for PS wages and social welfare without more taxes?

You can tell the troika to go screw themselves. But you can´t do that and fund current day to day government spending at the same rates. A balanced budget for Ireland = massive PS pay cuts.

Fact.

You guys are just parroting a myth.
It’s the USA that is our main creditor.
Followed by the UK, then other eurozone countries (probably Germany)

@Joe
Depending on borrowed money from the US is no fun as you can´t invoke Nazi metaphors like “the 4th Reich”.

Neil.”
I am pointing out the misuse of the word ” giving” , I am not” maintaining” anything nor am I “blaming ” the Germans ,nor to I intend to tell the Troika to go anywhere. I have no issue with cutting PS wages in general , including our political class. It is a sad fact that poor decision making in ireland means we no longer have a choice in how we manage and raise our finances.

Fair enough John, but I did specifically mention the interest, which I thought made it clear that this was not a “handout”.
But the inference I took that the money from the troika is mostly paying for the bank debt payments, and we´d have a balanced budget without the bank debt payments is very wrong. The money is paying more for PS pay, SW etc than it is for bank debts.

According to a report from the National Centre for Excellence in Mathematics and Science Teaching and Learning at the University of Limerick (UL) 48pc of second-level school maths teachers don’t have a proper qualification, and most of them have degrees in science or business studies.
I dont count studying something in first year of college as a qualification to teach it

Re second level teachers not being suitably qualified to teach subjects

The majoirty of university lecturers have absolutely no teaching qualification or experience AT ALL

Doesn’t seem to concern the Universities unduly

definitely they should be paid more, how else do you attract the most well educated into the profession that needs it most?

There’s a recession. The bright kids are already falling over each other to be teachers.

You’re wrong. The bright kids are in Australia.

These are the people in charge of our children’s education, our children’s future, our nations future.
We should be encouraging the best and giving them the best resources.
Of course teachers should be paid well

Better to reduce the wages of those who don’t have relevant qualifications. Irish teachers are already way overpaid and underworked compared to their European peers.

Agree Val, but I would tweak it some disadvanatged schools and areas still have incentives to improve, even if they might not be able to achieve as high an average as a middle class south Dublin school.

Ah but Paul…if you suggest to pay people on how they perform (what a crazy notion that is, where did you come up with it?), you will be accused of attacking teachers….even if you state categorically that great teachers deserve great wages.

Personalising in a debate is never good. The opposition will just ‘comment’ YOU being a teacher etc

Teaching has changed a lot in the last 10 years. Technology has advanced education – there is no need for overwhelming textbooks

Hi Alan,

These are the updated figures from the Department of Education:

http://www.education.ie/servlet/blobservlet/cl0040_2011.pdf?language=EN

The quoted €4,946 for an honours (1st or 2nd as I have indicated in article) Masters is over and above the basic salary of a teacher (it overrides payment for any other qualification). So the details are correct.

I understand what you are saying about a current teacher only receiving €500 or so extra by doing a masters but a new teacher will have all of these allowances suspended as per this announcement.

The new teacher will only get a basic salary without any of the extra allowances (including that for their H.Dip or pass degree).

So there was no misinformation it he article – just wanted to clear that up.

Thanks,
Sinead