Its called the household charge, and its being collected by FFg/Labour, and yes, they should be taken out of society for societies greater good. They are financial terrorsists, along with their predecessors, who have stolen 3 thousand million euro from our country this year alone.

And by the way, i voted Yes, along with all the other parties involved.

That means that FFg/Labour/FF all need to explain to the Irish people while they refused to hold a public inquirey into the 32 murders in the Dublin/Monaghan bombings.

What’s your solution? Maybe you could share it with every country that has gangs, mobs, militants etc that carry out these acts of extortion! ;)

That’s it Cal, deflect attention away from the discussion, as you always do.

The IRA & their political mouthpiece, SF, are masters at deflecting attention away from themselves, Brian. Always were. Frank Enstein raises very valid points.

Sorry guys, read my comment again…

And by the way, i voted Yes, along with all the other parties involved.

How is that deflecting anything. I am just realistic when i say that ALL parties need to give apologies.
The Dublin/Monaghan victims were not allowed to hold their annual commemoration last year due to the Queens visit. Were the 32 murder victims families not entitles to hold the commemoration? Were they not due that much respect from the Government? They have being demanding a public inquirey every year since 1974, but unfortunately it has fallen on deaf ears. These victims were not worth as much as the 2 RUC officer deaths being investigated at the Smithwick Tribunal.

Please don’t lecture me about deflection. When i say something against your precious Government, you attack me personally, rather than addressing my point.

@Cal1 Mooney, this has nothing to do with the HHC, FF/FG/Lab. Stop hijacking and deflecting the issue. It shows immense disrespect to the victims and their families from all sides of the age old conflict.

Michael, read Frankensteins comment again. He is under the illusion that the IRA still exist, and are collecting protection money. I was only clearing up any mis-conception about that. The only people collecting protection money at the moment, are the Government. The HHC charge is being collected under threat. Dont pay the HHc and you go to Prison.
The IRA are gone, consigned to history. Unfortunately, FFg/Labour/FF are still here. They are financial terrorists.

Cal1, do not bring up the HHC again, read the headline, this has nothing to do with with it, to say you are not hijacking the issue is an outright lie, and can only be presumed that you with support the activities of the IRA, or support the party that has most connections to the IRA.

Michael, what is this thread about again…?
Read the link below and then comment back at me again.

http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/15235

The apology already happened. I think we have an attempt on this thread to revise history for party political reasons, so please let me comment how i see fit.

The apology should be unconditional and accountable, they are all grown ups, and should act accordingly. The “I’ll apologise if they do” scenario wreaks of school yard actions, and would, at best, be more of an insult than a comfort to those involved.

In that apology, there is not one victim named, and reads more like an essay on the Leaving Cert, than a full, heart felt, emotional apology.

Comment how you like Cal1, but don’t divert from the issue at hand.

Michael, its estimated ath up to 25% of the victims that are attributed to the IRA were carried out by British security informants. So, do you propose that the IRA only read out the names of the others, or do you think the British should start apologizing for all the murders as well?

You are thinking of dissident republicans which is made up of several splinter groups that do not accept the peace process and are often related to criminal activity. Please do not try and accuse the provisionals and SF of going around and collecting protection money it just looks sad. Check the facts before you accuse certain people or groups.

They should apologise for what they have done – they cannot apologise for what they did not do. Obviously.nIf that means a full, concise, accountable, and honest statement from the IRA, and each of its factions, then let’s have it.nThe school yard tactics I outlined above Cal1, are the exact tactics you are involving yourself in. It’s uncool.nLet the British do as they see fit, it’s up to the IRA to rise above the public expectation, and do what is right by their victims. The days of hand holding and guidance are long gone – time to take some ownership, and do the decent thing.

Michael, do you put the Dublin/Monaghan cover-up in the same pigeon hole as the rest of the Island taking control of its own affairs? Have you ever heard one Taoiseach since the 1970’s call for an inquirey into the murder of the 32 people (over 250 people injured, many lost limbs). Or, do you think that the IRA were the only bad guys. The IRA made an unreserved apology when they disbanded to all the civilian victims. How do you propose they apologise now? They have disbanded. Do you think they should reform, and do a roll call of all the victims? I think there would be an outrage if the IRA said they were reforming. Do you not agree?

@Cal1nI was talking about protection rackets being run all around this country by muppets purporting to be members of IRA. This actually still happens. Fact. The article is a poll about the republican movement apologising for all of the killings it carried out. If the Real IRA are disbanded (I believe they are) then their former leaders should apologise regardless of whether others do so or not. It would show everyone that they have moved on and are Mature enough to accept that killing people was the wrong way to go about achieving their aims. Maybe the others involved would follow suit or maybe not but regardless of that it would be a clear message to the world that they have accepted their wrong doings and have moved on.nWith regard to the way you twisted my comment to suit your agenda, I laughed when I read it but there are enough articles by the Journal about these issues without you making the others about them too.

But Britain is our largest trading partner. If we tell Britain to eff off, then we will completely destroy our economy. Do you really want that?

Where the hell will this state eff off to???

Lads, if you’re going to tell me that the IRA and UDF were official state bodies, you can both eff off back ti the rock you crawled out from under.

and take apologists like Cal1 with them.

OK OK Julie, your party leader Eamonn Gilmore was a member of one of the IRA’s, i can’t remember which one. Do you want to remind us all?

Gilmore is a mercenary always was always will be..

There is a large distinction for many people between the IRA and thew UVF/UFF. The leaders of the latter walk around in public, feted by leaders and presidents here and in Britain as Brigadiers. Could you imagine the English Media referring to an IRA commander by his title in that org. Not a hope, there is a soft spot in many hearts for the UFF/UVF.

I would hope that the Good Friday Agreement, peace process was not a pantomime for certain individuals to futher their career in “the cause” and that some day soon these individuals, themselves, will tell innocent families where their mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters are buried after they had been beaten, butchered, murdered and buried in holes around the country. True forgiveness, apologies, respect and honesty needs to be shown by all.

Sheila, i am afraid it may have been a pantomime. Tony Blair and Bertie Ahearne made plenty of Political capital out of it. That being said, looking at what SF/DUP/SDLP/UUP have done with it, it gives me hope for the future. The parties all have respect for each other and their traditions, and have moved on. I am afraid its the Southern Politicians who want to keep using the Peace Process in the North as a means of maintaining the status quo in the South. They do not want any new Political parties to emerge on the scene, as it threatens their gravy train.

Give it a rest cal. There would not have been a peace process without parties like FF/FG/LAB working behind the scenes for decades with people like former Taoiseach Reynolds getting visas for Gerry Adams to visit the diaspora in America. SF would not have been involved without FF’s insistence that you should be at the top table.

Sean, Bertie Ahearne took 30,000 euro for his efforts with ETA last year. Adams was there as well, and refused to take any money for his support. FF never do anything unless it helps themselves and their bank accounts.

Cal, god bless your patience.

Explain about loughgall , who deserves an apology for that, eight terrorists on their ray to murder, get murdered, ur in a fairly murky area there

Cal, again you’re deflecting from the issue at hand. We are all aware of just how deep pockets went in regards to certain people but the fact of the matter is ‘the southern parties’ were actively working for peace since the 70′s while the IRA were intent on killing with the full backing of their political wing Sinn Féin. Fair play to SF they came around to our line of thinking and are working towards a hopefully lasting peace but I won’t have you belittle the role of parties like FF/FG/LAB who had been working on it from the start.

Sean, i find it incredible you say I am deflecting attention away when it was your party that supplied arms to the IRA to get the war started… Are FF going to apologise to all the Irish living in the North for leaving them to suffer oppression for the 6 decades prior to the war starting?
They did not have equal rights to the British counterparts, No irish need apply for jobs in the Government agencies, No equal access to education, Gerrymandered voting, and no one man-one vote.
What did successive FF governments do to support their citizens living there prior to the war starting? Please tell me, and educate me and everyone else on this thread about what you guys did to help us?

No FF did not supply the arms to the IRA, a minority of cabinet members at the time gave half of a 100,000 punt fund designated for relief efforts along the border to radical republicans who then used that money to attempt to import arms but the plot was stopped by the efforts of Gardaí and the responsible minister were sacked or resigned which led to the arms trials.

FF left our brethren up north suffering? FF didn’t exist when this island was partitioned Cal, but SF did and most SF TD’s from the second Dáil supported that treaty!

FF first came to power in 1932 when the southern jurisdiction had deep problems to deal with. Housing, health, employment etc. During the war years any sort of dialogue on the north would not have been tolerated by the British in regards to unity considering we were refusing to enter the war on their side. In the 1950’s Ireland suffered hugely with economic problems and would have been unable to maintain the north’s standard of living under Britain. In the 60′s is where FF started to step up our northern activity. The Lemass – O’Neill talks in particular where greater co-operation was proposed( integrated transport for example). Then of course the troubles and now our current situation.

We all know that catholics and nationalists were treated as second class citizens, there was nothing the south could have done bar talking( which we did). The ultimate responsibility for that injustice lies with the old Stormont regime and Westminster’s inaction and unwillingness to deal with the north in parliament.

What did FF do? There’s a lot to type so here’s a 51 page document from Legion of the Rearguard on the topic

http://www.legionoftherearguard.com/Docs/Fianna%20Fail%20and%20Northern%20Nationalism%20-%20Ciaran%20McFeely.pdf

Honestly Sean, i read your comment, and all i heard was excuses. FF talked to Stormont about transport??/ Thats it? Really, the first murders of the troubles took place in 1967, 2 years before the IRA started their campaign. And come on, are you going to say Haughey wasnt running guns across Lough Foyle? The British Army intercepted his boat loaded with guns. Try reading some of the history from a neutral side, rather than the propoganda that is fed to you.

That unfortunately was the reality of the situation Cal, I don’t like it either but that was reality, there was no plausible way FF could have ended partition prior to the troubles, O’ Neill as a leader up north was a ray of hope but by then tensions had already boiled over.

Maybe Haughey did run guns but FF as a party or government did not support the arming of paramilitaries in the north.

OK, once more…
“Fair play to SF they came around to our line of thinking and are working towards a hopefully lasting peace but I won’t have you belittle the role of parties like FF/FG/LAB who had been working on it from the start.”

you say, you were trying to help the Irish in the North, so you talked about Transport. You are a FF member, and can’t argue that the fact that a FF leader provided the IRA with their arms, but you say that your leader didnt represent your party…

” ‘the southern parties’ were actively working for peace since the 70′s while the IRA were intent on killing”

” The Lemass – O’Neill talks in particular where greater co-operation was proposed( integrated transport for example). ”

Like seriously, come on… what did you guys want to achieve for the Irish people.
Your complaining it took so long for the Irish in the North to come around to your way of thinking, but your way of thinking, was we cant fight the British, so we are better off doing nothing.

We have PAW on other threads saying that he cant understand what the IRA were doing, while here, you are saying that it was OK for FF leaders to give guns and ammunition to the IRA to fight the British. Can you guys not all get together and agree on one version of event …. Oh, wait, you tried that many times in the last coupe of tribunals, and that didn’t work out too well for you all.

I was going to wait for you to respond, but i said to hell with it…

This is the clincher…your quote, not mine…
” In the 1950′s Ireland suffered hugely with economic problems and would have been unable to maintain the north’s standard of living under Britain. ”
The Irish in the North did not have equal access to education. In order to go to school in the North in the 1950’s you had to pay a fee that the vast majority of |rish could not. if you were not Catholic, it was paid for by the state. No Irish in the North at that time could get a job in the North, if it was worth anything, they did not have equal access to housing. Like seriously, your argument is so full of holes, its leakier than swiss cheese. Admit it, like a good man, and say that they FF/FFg in the south, abandoned the |rish in the North, and considered them expendable. You guys had the attitude that you were in power, and would not do antything to annoy the status quo in Britain that could cause all that to change.

I actually just noticed something about this article. By “all of its victims”, would this imply that they would also apologise to members of the British army, Unionist paramilitaries etc? Because if thats the case then I would say no. However, an apology to civilian or innocent casualties would be in order. That goes for both sides also.

I am particularly interested in your number 3 point. Would it? I think in every other situation I would absolutely agree with this, and I think eventually it WILL be them who will take the first step again and do it. But for now I think I can understand them holding off apologising, because the question of it has to settle in the minds of everyone, and the pressure must by increased on the British gov to compel them to engage in this process and finally bring closure to this epoch of shared history. If they don’t wait, I think it would be taken for granted and there is a danger that too many might consider the matter closed.

I cant see the British going for that… At the Bloody Sunday inquirey, they insisted on protecting the murderers identities. But, i agree, here is to hoping.
And yes, Martin McGuinness admitted at the same tribunal, he was commander of the IRA that day.

I can’t see senior British military and political figures admitting that Loyalist targeting of catholic civilians was part of the overall military strategy in the North and was approved at senior levels. From their point of view it was a smart strategy, as it upped the price to the nationalist community to severe levels and was aimed at convincing populace that maybe they should try the electoral route.

For frig sake British Military intelligence was caught importing guns for the UFF in the 90′s.

are you from another planet …. the brits will never own up to all the shit they caused in the ISLAND OF IRELAND over the last 800 yrs …

Well said antóin couldn’t agree more and there is many past and current “colonised” states who would be of a similar opinion. The Brits were murdering innocents long before the IRA came along to stand up to them from our perspective

Martin, i don’t know if you know this, but it was a British operative called ‘Stakeknife’ who carried out the executions on behalf of the IRA, of ‘informants’ Unfortunately, ‘Stakeknife’ is now living under a false name (still on the payroll of the British Government).
Much and all as i would like to see the remains of the victims returned to the surviving members of the families, the British refuse to hand ‘Stakeknife’ over. There are some very good books on the issue, if you want me to get you the names.

They called it the ‘dirty war’ for a reason :(

Martin, There were many digs seeking the victims, going on the information that the surviving IRA member gave to find and return ‘disappeared’. Most of the victims were returned. Why di you think they have held off on the remaining 4 missing victims?
Stakeknife is recorded as having murdered 30 people, and was responsible for the burying the victims. He has refused to come clean about where the remaining victims are buried. He is still alive, and living it up.
What would the IRA have to gain by keeping the remaining victims locations secret? Its a source of serious contention with them, for exactly the reason you called out in your first post. As long as the victims locations remain unknown, people like yourself will be under the illusion that they are keeping it secret deliberately.

Then we should apologize for Irish raiding parties that pillaged the west coast of England and Wales for centuries. Scandinavia should apologize for the vikings. The Italians should apologize for the Roman Empire and so forth!

OK Sean, on behalf of the Irish people I formally apologize for the raiding parties. I am an Irish citizen and therefore I am empowered to make that apology. My famuily date back centuries on this Island, and I am sure that some of my family were involved and lead some of those raiding parties.

I unconditionally apologize. Now, let it go.

That wasn’t my point at all Cal. . . . . . .

Julie, they already did it, read Marks post above.
Its the Government who are making this a story again, they feel threatened by the rise of SF in the South, so they will continue to deflect attention away from the screw up they are making of the country, at ANY cost.

@Cal1
Luckily SF support depends on stupid people voting for them and I’d say they’ve pretty much got all of them on board so further electoral success is limited.

And there my friends you have the real reason behind this thread.

@Julie: in the same way support for the puppets of FFG and “Labour” requires the support of extra-stupid people like you!!

Julie, if McGuinness and Co apologize it’s a PR stunt, if they don’t they will be criticized for that as well. No matter what they do they will never satisfy anyone. Like it or not SF are on the rise whether that is a good thing or not I don’t know but they have FF and Labour running scared. You only have to look at their supporters coming on here throwing around unfounded allegations and lies in a desperate attempt to gain some sort of hope for their own dwindling parties. It’s cringe worthy at the least and pathetic at most.

If the PIRA did issue a statement (which would be hard as they have disbanded, something that is accepted by all sides) you can be guaranteed that instead of accepting the apology the first thing that the FG/FF/Lab rabble would start shouting is “We told you that they hadn’t gone away!” even though they were the ones that asked them for the apology!!! So even though most Republicans would welcome a collective apology from all sides the only impediment to my mind are the Government parties and what is left of FF.

Apparently only a state’s Armed Forces are seen as a legitimate army in your eyes.

By your logic Éamon de Valera, Nelson Mandela, Che Gueavara and countless others should have been tried for war crimes?

But when it came to the British Army gunning down civil rights protesters, or blowing kids to pieces in Iraq and Afghanistan that’s okay, because they’re a “legitimate army” (whatever that is)??

Please….

what makes a legitimate army the people of Ireland or the people of n Ireland when the government of the 26 county said we will not stand ideally by and did ????

Can you do us all a favor and send us the link to Tony Balirs apology. I genuinely never heard it.

Ok I was not quite accurate. I just googled tony Blair Irish apology. He apologized for the Irish famine. Google and see for yourself.

OK, thanks Declan. Thanks for answering and being honest. You are more of a man, than most of the commentators who make comments, but cant back up their accusations.

I hope it wasn’t you that gave me the red-thumb, i just gave you a green one :D

Republicans slaughter and murder. Loyalists kill. Did the British army simply remove people? Whats with the scorekeeping?
That kind of mentality kept the thing going for long enough.
It’s amazing that those affected most by the conflict seem to be ones most determined to move on. While us on the periphery and least affected seem to be incapable of deciding what we want from a process.

Given that the head of the IRA at the time of the most intense violence had an Anglican father and a Belfast Presb. mother (from whom he received his Republicanism) it doesn’t make sense to call them a Catholic org.

In fact I’d say that most IRA members who take great umbrage as being described as a catholic org.

Here you go … in case you never read it or heard about it.
http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/15235

I honestly think we need a truth and reconciliation forum like they had in South Africa after the apartheid era ended. Every victim/family should have their day. All partys involved should partake. Having only one side take part will not resolve the pain of all the victims.

It’s a nice idea……but who’s going to pay for all that?………It would probably cost hundreds of millions of pound and leave us with more questions than answers. Judging by our history of tribunals etc. Sorry I know I sound very negative.

Brian, if the British Government spent 1% less on next years military budget, that would more than cover the cost. Think about it, rather than spending the money to kill people, they could spend the money to stop people killing people. Crazy idea, i know, but it could be worth a shot… what do you think?

Hallucinating about an article in the Journal.? This is a real one (this time).