I’ve said that from the start Shelley. I actually support the general concept of a property tax, and support charging a modest amount for water, in the name of improving our water supply, and support the USC until such time as we tax more than we spend, but until TD’s are paid a reasonable amount, every group opposed to any of them have my support and vote.

Ferdia: I object to property tax and water charges because we don’t need them (and so do the majority of Irish). The government needs to cut spending instead of property tax / water charges. Cut government spending and compensate by abolishing property tax and water charges. A low-tax low-spend economy.

I asked you elsewhere and don’t think you responded yet Regonald, but what would you cut? Again I am not arguing with you or saying you are necessarily wrong, but lay out Budget 2014 by Minister for Finance Regonald Timpson.

My proposal:

- Introduce a wealth tax
- Downsize the big government
- Axe state funding for private schools
- Reduce grant rates on ALL schemes everywhere
- Cap the salaries of professors, “quango’s”, consultants etc @ €100k
- Abolish the nonsense bureaucracy on getting things like a drivers license
- Abolish the RSA and re-merge with the Department of Transport (like before)
- Reduce entitlement spending rates and standardize the elderly entitlement rates with the rest
- Abolish the requirement for “state approved suppliers” so that the market re-adjusts itself competitively

While I agree that politicians expenses need to be cut, it distracts from the BILLIONS required to keep the overall public sector payroll afloat. It wouldn’t make a drop in the ocean by comparison.

the money is there. you would find that if there was something god forbid like foot and mouth there would be huge investment in that sector and rightly so. front line have been hit hard and its time to stand up to that. I suggested before how we could have the Oz model for buying of state cars that would improve service and save millions yearly. but this is ireland heaven forbid that we are forward thinking. As it is the garda force is being pounded, lack of funding and no recruitment

Regonald, a drop in the ocean?
They want to cut Garda overtime by €60million over the next three years (http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0201/365595-garda-pay/), but this is a ‘drop in the ocean’ compared to the TDs travel allowances of €72million per year?

Mark, I’m talking abut the overall wage bill (all included). I think you are being selective by conjuring a horse and pony show of figures in your reply. The public sector payroll is helping to spur tax rises, new taxes and questions. Some Unions believe it’s a one-way street: we take you give.

Those were the figures mentioned in this thread, and I’m selective in that I want public sector reformed and I want the frontline services protected.

Horse and pony show of figures? They were the figures readily available from RTE. Where are you getting your figures from?
Furthermore, I have spoken to nurses, gardaí, and emts, and believe it or not, some of them are on salaries as low as 22k, and are struggling just like workers in the private sector. I don’t think that’s a case of ‘you take we give’.

Well, the alternative is layoffs. Fianna Fail would probably do this, considering Labor is pro-Unions.

NO Regonald, the alternative is that those on the front line emigrate to countries where pay and conditions are better and then youre stuck for people to do these jobs.

Please put your money where your mouth is and emigrate. We have 400,000 people to replace you. Also willing to work for lower pay levels than the present. Off you go and move.

I’m not trying to discredit the Gardai or their Unions. My point is we must all have realistic debates on reforms.

I love the way some try to justify their existence. Nobody is cutting “resources” – allowances are being reformed. Most people have short memories. Weren’t the Army called in to fill the gap during the ’98 blue-flu?

The deflation at the start of this recession was probably a good thing as it enabled us to become a bit more competitive. Hence the increase in our exports. However, the last thing we need now is more deflation. Then everybody would just save their money, the domestic economy would contract further, the public finances would be even worse off, and then the government will be looking for even more cuts.

Spending cuts would compensate the need for a property tax / water charges.

I admit it’s tough but look to the bigger picture: no home tax, no water tax – no tax on jobs.

What “large pay cuts” were already imposed? Let’s examine your definition of “large”:

14% cut to Irish public sector pay (compared to 60% in Greece and 30% in Latvia)

Now I’m pissed…..

It’s the people they are cutting the money from you clown. How do our politicians’ wages compare to their European counterparts? If you don’t know you could always tweet Gerry Adams since you are following him on twitter.

By comparison, politicians wages (MILLIONS) wouldn’t make a drop in the ocean compared to the BILLIONS spent on ordinary public sector pay.

@RT But we are not Greece, nor Latvia. One thing we have in common is that we have been screwed over by bad governance, to different extents.

Yeah, the ‘let them eat cake’ attitude. Bourgeois?

Structural reforms will pay-off in the long-term. The Unions don’t realize that.

Reggie, you don’t have a grasp of how corrupt the public service was in Greece. Political cronies were given jobs or rather put on payroll for favours. They did no work at all. Fact
I’m not au fait with the situation in Latvia but I can only presume that as its a nation only 20 years out of communist rule that something similar might apply.
Gardai have taken a 23% cut in pay and allowances and the government want more cuts.
People forget that gardai are the first port of call for most peoples disasters and put their lives on the line to protect the citizens of the state.
We owe that body so much.
People say its wrong to have a blue flu, but when you have no right to strike, what else can be done. There’s a case in Europe brought by Belgium police over the right to strike. If its successful it will be binding on all nation states.

“Gardai have taken a 23% cut in pay and allowances and the government want more cuts”

14% pay cut on government workers was the figure I’ve researched. 23%? That’s News to me! But never mind, taxes are already at the breaking point and still no solutions from some Unions. I think it’s safe to say there is a certain degree of selfishness.

it costs 800 million to have a police force in this country, Forget about your income tax etc, your home insurance car insurance would multiply by a factor of 10 without the protection offered as a right. its actually 26% of a cut and a further 170 a week places a garda on 396 a week, who in their right mind would work for that. A bit of cop on please.

Regonald, that comment makes no sense?

I don’t support them. Public sector pay cuts are inevitable. We cannot afford to pay these pay levels.

I agree take away the protection from the politicians and lets see how safe they would feel then, Who’s idea is it anyway that ministers are protected by gardai. They don’t deserve it

‘We can not afford to pay these pay levels’

When are people going to accept that a public service costs money.

And everyone needs to cop on and distinguish between the pay of lazy desk jockeys and frontline services like Gardaí and nurses.

“When are people going to accept that a public service costs money”

Put differently: when will the Gardai accept that current pay levels are unaffordable?

Yes Mark, it costs a hell of a lot of money and we pay through the nose for it. When are people going to accept that money to pay for public services doesn’t just fall out of the sky?

Would you rather have no Gardaí?
You should visit a wealthy country where the police are not well paid, like Russia, and see first hand the caliber of police that those attitudes produce,
From your other comments here I can’t help but think you have a grudge against public servants and it reminds me of the story of the Irish crab.

@Censored: When are people going to realise that the money to pay for the public service doesn’t just fall out of the sky? When are the public going to realise that the services the depend upon, also do not just fall out of the sky?

I have no grudge against the Gardai nor am I trying to single out any particular government worker for any negative reason. I am trying to ascertain where the money will come from. So far, the replies received range from hyperbole to insults to ‘let someone else pay’. Not one reply has realistic expectations (in my opinion).

Feathering your own nest egg? I haven’t seen many civil servants at the ordinary protests against the property tax / water charges except when your pay cuts were proposed, you suddenly came. Very ironic.

Look up irony.

Hang your head in shame at your stupidity.

What do you mean? Sure the guards were at all the protests protecting Enda and his buddies.

Playing the insult card won’t get people on your side, Denis. All this over a modest cut to allowances.

Moaning and Groaning about reforms.

Suffer?!? I presume you were huffing glue when you wrote that.

*** A Garda earns approx €500 per week ***

Remind me again what you were waffling about.

Actually it’s closer to €650 before tax, deductions etc which brings it closer to €300 to €350.

No rank and file Gardai get €500 a week

With allowances, overtime, and all other generous entitlements, this would bring weekly pay levels near approx €500 per week.

Regonald, care to show us the pay slip you are reading there?

Because I make nowhere near this fabled €500 you speak of.

You are speaking so much shite that your ass must be getting jealous of your mouth.

Don’t worry Dennis. Reg is just like a broken record. Saying the same crap over and over again. He makes up half the comments on this news thread anyways. Which makes me think, he’s either employed as a troll or doesn’t work and sponges off our taxes to pay his Internet connection.

How much do politicians get a week Reg?

The overall conclusion I’ve drawn from the aggressive supporters here: ‘let someone else pay’

Wrong it’s about €1200 to €1400 a month.

Reg, I’ll pay whatever personal debt I owe but I’m not paying someone eles’s. The whole deal of putting PRIVATE bank debt onto the people is illegal anyway.Michael Noonan even admits it here. We don’t have to pay this debt, Iceland proved this, let the men who asked for the money sort it out with the men who lent them the money, It’s got nothing to do with me or you. Learn not to judge people Reg, it’s bad for your health, causes a lot of unnecessary stress :-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2x59Ksq0A6o

Are all the Garda wages not publicly available online on the GRA website? How can their possibly be confusion about how much they earn. @ Adrian if it’s €650 a week before tax I don’t understand how they’re paying 50% in tax unless they pay some other form of deductions. Possible contributions to their pensions which may seem onerous now but will pay off massively in retirement as I’m guessing it will greatly exceed whatever contributions are made. And by the way I’m not attacking Garda pay but I just hate all this confusion that’s always brought into the debates.

A fairytale economic theory. The public sector pay levels are financially in deficit. Where do you think the money will come from?

The civil service pay needs to be cut in line any other Eurozone country. In Greece, Teachers earn about €155 a week. In Ireland, it’s at least double (if not more) than Greece despite similarities in the crisis. Too much money, unsustainable.

While I take your general point, Greek teachers are a terrible example. They don’t actually do any teaching. Pretty much everyone in Greece, no matter how poor, hires special tuition for their children, because they know that the alternative is not to have an education.

would you like to educate you kids in greece?

Like I said; you cannot spend money you don’t have….

Teachers get €1,000 a week.

What is the price of a loaf of bread in Greece? Or a bottle of milk? An hours electricity?

Never have I seen such an audacious show of trolling, you are surely more intelligent than that? My lord that was silly.

A slice pan in Greece is 20c

If a teachers pay was cut to €155 why would they go to work? The dole here is €165 a week and that’s just the cash payment, you add on top of that rent and other allowances

So start by cutting social welfare, im all for helping people when there down but the billions we spend annually on welfare is unsustainable. Since the recession has hit welfare levels have not come down while peoples pay levels have

” Since the recession has hit welfare levels have not come down while peoples pay levels have”

Patently false. It was reduced from €204 per week to €196 per week to €188 per week.

@ Killian

You need to educate yourself to prevent ignorant comments falling from your mouth. Those relying on SW have been the hardest hit . Core payments have drastically cut, OAPs have had a reduction of 10 euros to their telephone allowance in the last budget, a reduction to their Gas/ESB allowance in the previous, not to mention the big reduction to the carers respite grant. Married OAPs, where one is the carer of the other, have had their full medical cards taken from them which now means they have to pay the full 140 euros for their medication without the benefit of tax credits to offset this loss to their income. Those OAPs who are not married or single as well as people who have life long illness now have to pay a prescription charge of 1.50 per medication. These groups along with children ARE THE VULNERABLE in this country. Speaking of children, they didnt go untouched either with a cut to childrens allwance.

So before you comment next time I suggest you use google to check your facts, That way you wont look so ignorant and lazey.

Con,

Killian (like most of the Unions) don’t give a shit about anyone else as long as they get their pay.

I hope someone can prove me wrong, but I don’t see any proposed alternative to keeping pay levels in the current deficit.

Jack, ”teachers get €1000 a week’? Are you serious?
Im a PS worker on a salary of €41k. My net is €1800 A MONTH!
I have a medical qualification. No one gets €1000 a week!

Consultants?

“Quangos”?

And they’re well-paid.

Says the man following Gerry Adams on Twitter #enoughsaid

All comments should display your real name. Getting personal doesn’t affect my opinion that pay cuts are inevitable. You cannot spend money you don’t have.

you are outed

It’s not personal, it’s factual. The person you are following and his peers support the murder of Detective Gerry McCabe and the attempted murder of Detective Ben O’Sullivan. My point is that you are obviously therefore not going to be sympathetic to Garda pay cuts when you follow people who associate with those who bring the ultimate misery to a Garda’s family.

Just like the Gardai who brutally attacked the protestors last night? They pinned down several protestors against the property tax and water charges. Aside from that, the MAJORITY of Irish people would support cuts to Garda pay levels because we are spending more money than we take in.

What about the Sinn Fein/IRA ‘protestors’ who tore up their own capital city during the Love Ulster parade? People who caused millions in damage to property, assaulted citizens and Gardai and looted shops? People
who prevented others from exercising their constitutional right to protest. You and your ilk have no right to speak on behalf of the people of Ireland, nor should you. How about counting the cost of the free legal aid and dole these people cost the State?

RT if protesters were pinned to the ground that is called reasonable force to effect arrest and/or ensure the safety of that person, the Garda and other people nearby.

Reasonable force is used globally by Police Forces.

Hey when u make up a name, spell it correctly, regonald with an “o”. Typo there

Just look today’s Journal poll: you’re Not fully supported. So guys, how does it feel to be in the minority?

Delusional thinking? I hope the government stands-up to the unions. The majority of the public support cuts to spending. Otherwise, it’s higher taxes.

Yes, It is delusional to think the majority of the public support cuts to frontline public spending that will put lives at stake! Only an idiot would think that!

51% do not support a garda ‘blue flu’ while just 31% said yes. (according to today’s Journal poll at this particular time).

The writing’s on the wall, Dec.

Throwing money at something doesn’t improve “morale”. Structural reforms help to improve confidence in the public sector. The figures state that public sector wages are one of the biggest components of government spending.

‘Don’t cut me, don’t cut thee, that the one behind the tree’

I hope the government stands-up to you.

Why dont you get off your lazy private sector arse and get a job mate

Getting personal suggests you know I’m right. Thanks for proving my point, Pablo.

Government spending = unsustainable.

Not personal your a troll mate. You don’t spell Reginald like that BTW.

Why don’t you be more constructive in your comments?

Did somebody not suggest to cut social welfare earlier sure on your reckoning we don’t have the money to Reginald who seems to have alot of time to comment on all matters in relation to the public service ???

So why don’t you leave the PS and take your skills and qualifications to the Productive Sector.

You seem to object paying any income taxes. Tell you what, why don’t you go to Somalia where you won’t have to pay any taxes. You know where the Airport is…MOVE.

Meanwhile, back to the budget cuts…

that sean brannigan chap is spot on .time to unite and say NO #frontlineallince

That excuse is used to bolster the Union arguments against any structural reforms.

Well said.

Yes 100% when I needed them in my darkest hour they were there for me so I’m fully behind them whatever course of action they take.

*plus I like a man in uniform* :)

Like the way they supported the ordinary people at latest protests? Not an F-in chance! They need to wake up and start to look at who their paid to protect, the citizen not the big business

Fair point LW, but every other protest group should take this as an opportunity to drive home our point and join the gardai in their protest. Make it a national protest!

Stop issuing fines, as a protest action, Id support that 100 percent.

Like the way the garda took the opportunity on Saturday to join in the march instead of harass peaceful protesters? Like the way they protect shell in Mayo while they goin to rob billions worth of oil and gas which was given away? Like the way they sprayed pepper spray in the face of a teenage girl at the labour ard fheis?
They are the ones who continue to allow themselves be used as tools of their government, look at the Spanish police, now that’s a police force, they join the people during protests instead of our hypocrites lookin for support now when they never once showed it to their countrymen and women.

The Spanish Police brilliant…I love these sarcastic comments!!

@LW, I presume you’re being sarcastic. Just as an example………………http://youtu.be/tI0S-AcqQ1g

The Spanish police, hard but fair

@LW I see you follow Mistress Tara the dominatrix on twitter, I’m assuming that’s why you prefer the beatings dished out by the Spanish police, our guards aren’t dominant enough for you! Move to Spain and be a naughty boy :)

Nothin wrong wit a bit of porn Lisa :-D
We should make some :-D:-D

I think LC and LW got a bit “Blue Flu” themselves and will soon be calling in sick. ;)

Sorry LW but sadomasochism just isn’t my thing, I’m guessing you are an older gentleman who likes to dress up! I’m sure your Mistress Tara will look after you…

Na not that old now in my twenties but hey im open minded :-D and as for the sadism thing that’s not really my cup of bovril :-D

Finally someone who actually talks sense.
Personally I am happy with the way the government is handling things, being it no way ideal i believe they are doing the best given the extreme circumstances.
How ever if majority of people are not happy then I agree 100% stand up join and make a national protest get the right headlines. Have all other organisations join together and march with the Garda and sing the same tune.
If the Garda are keeping the peace while making there voice heard and joining in I don’t think anyone could object. Show the world your not happy and show it can be done without riots and violence. Show that Irish are capable and set an example.
We are externally lucky to live in a country where this is possible. If your not happy use your right and stop the bitching.

@Leonard i agree with some of your sentiment but you lost all credibility with your point about the spanish police, they had their own protest one week and the very next week were beating up peaceful protesters for fun, the police at the anti-austerity marches in dublin on saturday, were verbally and physically abusing any marchers that werent with a union, while i support the notion that they have a hard job and they should be well paid for it, i cant have any respect for an institution that physically attacks innocent people for their own gains, it is criminal pure and simple

@LW I can’t imagine why a man in his 20′s would be following “sugar daddy’s baby” on twitter!

It was a joke :-D ever see jackass? The Russian police, hard but fair :-D

Oh i don’t know how that one slipped in there Lisa, ye have me blushing now :-(

Spending must be cut. The figures state that civil service pay is MASSIVE compared to other Eurozone countries. As for the smug hubris remark by Lisa Coyne, her wit shows her lack of real-world and suggests she works in a protected profession.

apologies Leonard, sarcasm detector failed due is recent alcohol consumption

It can happen the best of us, don’t worry you can get thru this

Yes. We will need a motivated police force to now that Honahan is insisting for the banks to take action on distressed mortgages and we don’t want Gardai worrying about their own pay packets when they are enforcing the resultant mass house reposessions ; rather they should be in a strong position to eye up the great investment opportunities that will open up for them in this scenario.

One of the laws of this country is that they can’t strike.

I’m sure if I was a burglar I’d be well in favour of it.

This bugs the s*** outta me…yes there needs to be cuts but why hit the frontline staff all the time while there are 1000’s of absolutely useless people in the middle tiers? It’s infuriating how politicians and civil servants look out for número uno exclusively. It takes a certain type of person to do their jobs and that type is selfish and greedy.

Take the weed out of your face.

Another arm chair Warrior.

LOL. I think you are too immersed in your own partisan rhetoric to see where the money will come from to finance your idea. Zero economics.

WRONG. UK cost of living is HIGHER than Ireland. Also, they are in a different currency too.

Bottom line:
Garda Pay Cuts are a necessary evil.

P45 printing?

So the guards should not stand up for themselves and be happy with being stretched to the limit? Is that what your saying. When they striking in sure every citizen of this country will row in behind them.

Aoife the real criminals are having a field day the guards have turned a blind eye to white collar crime for donks you do not see any of them doin time so that should be proof that they look the other way also the other crew that looks the other way is the media they are also corrupt.

White collar crime takes a long time to investigate and it’s up to the DPP not the guards. Also, I doubt that many gardaí are qualified accountants capable of even spotting these types of crimes let alone investigating them! I’m not saying they’re perfect but the vast majority to their job to a high standard of fairness and impartiality. As for people complaining about them not taking sides, like other protests or shell to sea etc… that’s the last thing you should want. Their job is to uphold the law objectively an impartially, not pick and choose.

no ollie thats not what i said a minority in the guards have looked the other way when it comes to white collar crime almost to the point it does not exist and if im wrong show me where there is people in jail for banking and company offences,plusthese cuts are a direct link because of organised white collar crime.

gearoid you say white collar crime takes time to investigate and it takes even longer when its not being investigated , all we hear is how its a complex and complicated investigation the information is there in front of them , it all sounds like excuses to me .

No excuses Dermot. Has been widely reported that the legislation was found to be severely lacking before the banking crisis.

Also reported in the media that 3 former members of Anglo bank are before the courts. The evidence against them contains 28 million documents!!! Not a straight forward prosecution

Well can you explain to me why they “picked and chose” to impede and abuse the protesters not under the flags of the unions, in Dublin last Saturday. ?

Do you mean those protesters trying to piggy back on another protest and impeding that protest and the Gardai job to ensure a peaceful and safe protest?

The guards are legally not allowed to strike. They all knew tat when they signed up. They made good money when the money was there.

Get over yourself Ollie O’Cleirigh. Did I mention any of that BS you said in your reply? No!

@ Dermot that question was directed at aoife.

I read between the lines miss smarty pants. Be more clear and concise in future. Tata and good evening

Gardai have 2 credit unions just for members of the force.

The Dublin one, St Raphaels, claims it is the biggest credit union in the country so why would a Guard need to get a bank loan for house purchase?

The credit unions don’t offer mortgages they act as a broker for financial institutions.

*industrial action

Any suggestions?

I’m sure they’d be willing to listen if you have any suggestions. Given as how they’re legally barred from taking any actual industrial action and work-to-rule wouldn’t result in them working any differently as there’s already no overtime or anything.

Like sit on the fence?

Robs onto something, i think that’s it.

They could quit en masse. Since they’re absolutely vital to the government, the government would have to give them all new contracts with better pay, better conditions and a future right to strike. After all, we know it’s perfectly possible to get emergency legislation through in an evening.

I can’t see anything that can possibly go wrong with this plan.

That is literally the only form of protest they have available to them Declan. By law they cannot use any of the traditional methods of industrial action, such as an open strike.

So if they all go on strike, they’ll all be arrested for breaking the law! The next question becomes fairly obvious. Eh?

If there was I’m sure they would do it. They can’t join a union that’s the first joke. They cant strike its against the law. They are under resourced. You say that they are paid to protect this country, if these cuts come some Gardai will not be able to a afford to go to work. People really don’t under stand how bad it is.

Its a complicated issue but there just has to be another way. What about not issuing fines or parking tickets or something like that? When you’re a public servant like that you can’t just walk out on the ordinary people of the country. What if everyone in health service did that and people died as a result? I know that there probably wont be a huge upturn in crime as a result but from a logical point of view emergency services can’t go on strike. This isn’t like closing a shop. This is a country. And we need these people.

No suggestions Denis. go ahead and break the law you’re sworn to uphold, and pretend that you’re not. It’s what Ireland’s all about and ye’re not the only ones at it. What age will you retire at, by the way?

Colin, Declan said there has to be a better suggestion than a strike so I asked for said suggestion…

I never once said I’d go on strike or blue flu and I’d seriously weigh it up were it to come to that, not because it would be breaking the law(in the same way the government reneging on a contract they made until 2015 in 2013 would be breaking the law) but because its a moral issue. I would feel sorry for the people that would be left vulnerable by such an action.

Not that it’s any of your business, but I’d retire at 51, if I make it that far, which at the moment it looks like I won’t, having worked hard and paid a lot for my pension at the end. You have a problem with that too I’m guessing?

I’d certainly support anything that would mean fewer Gardaí in a position to handcuff left-wing politicians just because they don’t like them.

No, the guards are directed by the minister and his personally appointed Garda management to take a particular stance towards protestors, the public etc. They cannot refuse nor express their own views precisely because they have no representation or union. Don’t confuse the two. So when protestors or joe public is given short shrift then don’t blame the poor sod in uniform, he /she is not allowed to think or risk facing dismissal.

We were only following orders….thats sounds so familiar and is not a excuse for going againest the law itself, beating protesters and slaming there heads into walls would fall under the going aginest the law themselves. I think the guards did themselves massive PR damage in tallaght the other night, no excuse’s for what they did to the protesters.

Then make a complaint to the GSOC if you aren’t happy. Ask yourself who creates the law and who’s interest any law protects. But no, you’d prefer to have a go at the badly paid, demoralised Garda. You’re playing right into the government’s hand. They take your money and my money and the guards money to pay themselves and their friends fat salaries and refund their developer friends who lost in a gamble. And when us plebs react they set us all against eachother. Was Martin Callinan or Alan Shatter out policing the protest?

@jack, they did not look very demoralised when kneeling on a guys neck yesterday night in tallaght! or was the guard whispering in his ear “this is gonna hurt me more than it hurts you!” to make it seem like the Guard had no choice and was “only following orders”.

From a public perspective these are the same guards who persecute protesters in mayo threatening to rape them.

The same Guards who stormed the council office in Tallaght assaulting protesters.

The same Guards who protect Baliffs and sheriffs repossesing family homes for the banks.

The same Guards who sit by and watch a corrupt goverment squash the public, yet when the goverment looks in there direction they expect sympathy from the very people they fail to protect.

If you did this poll on Saturday night or even Sunday night I would bet the currenty 50% No support would be a Yes, unfortunatly the guards don’t know when they have a good thing going, they had the public’s support and then suddenly they do something stupid because “they were only following orders” like Mondays nights Debacle in Tallaght.

As regards who creates the Law and who’s interest it protects, the goverments ofc. If the guards know the goverment are corrupt then why don’t they get off there collective ass’s and go do something about it, because at the moment it looks like the guards are doing nothing about any corruption in leinster house. Actions speak louder than words especially in this case.

The ‘rape’ threat has now been dismissed as vexatious and proven that the tape was edited. But nice try. The guards stormed the Tallaght offices? How bizarre! I thought it was the protestors who stormed the offices therefore illegally trespassing. The rest of your response is as nonsensical and again loaded with hearsay. You obviously have a problem with authority.

And FYI the public will never and should never support a total withdrawal of the Gardai. The Gardai are vital so that the savages don’t attack people like you and I. I fear the day the Gardai withdraw their services because you’ll see then just how much they do for us. Every citizen of this country should do what is absolutely necessary to ensure the Gardai don’t walk out.

So the whole force are guilty in ur eyes ?

Guards can’t strike this is their only option

That is the right name Rita, they can’t strike, per say, because they are not allowed to have a union. They just have a rep body to carry back the bad news from government, on a regular basis.

Is that some sort of code Rita? It’s hard to decipher.

Their other option is to leave the force. They knew when they joined up that they were not allowed to strike. It’s part of the deal of becoming a Garda.

Emily, when we signed up we also saw how much we would get paid for the length of our careers. The Government are trying to substantially lower these pay rates. Our numbers are being reduced. Members are being assaulted too frequently and the courts don’t impose penalties to deter people from repeating offences. Maybe you should look at our pay and conditions, look at the proposed cuts and ask yourself would you put up with it?

Have you ever called in sick when you weren’t? I’m sure you have like most. This is the only method the guards have as they are not allowed strike or be unionised. How draconian is that?! I’m fully behind them.

They also signed up for various work conditions and pay scales which were changed or reneged upon by successive governments. But it’s easy to victimise those without redress or a voice. The government can’t just cherry pick what aspects of the deal they want to comply with and get rid of the one that doesn’t suit. Good people break bad laws.

Yes Emily, the conditions have changed from when they first joined. take home pay is down 20% and doing more for less. I doubt they were told that would happen when they signed up! We’d probably all love to just change job for a better one, but it’s not as simple as that. And that’s why your comment is a dumbass one!

Lads ye are trying to explain an important issue to someone called “Emily Elephant” ye’re not in copper face jacks now boys!

Rita technically they are not lying if they ring in sick as they are sick and tired of the shit they have to put up with from government and senior management who have no backbone to deal with the current problems appropriately.

You could start by understanding that it’s two issues, Gerry.

(1) Should Garda pay be open for negotiation or not?

(2) If not, is pretending to be sick when you’re not the right way to go about it?

Me, I take the old-fashioned view that I don’t really want the guardians of the law to be committing fraud. I guess some people are ok with it, though.

I love how people present the option of leaving a job as if its a realistic option for anyone. As if being so principled would feed your kids….

Really ? Is it not reasonable to expect adjustments when the amount available for pay is reduced and government is borrowing to fund pay. Are you suggest ing public spending near no relationship to revenue ?

Don’t be so naive, that’s government spin. These ministers and Garda management and senior civil servants and judges are bleeding the country dry! The expenses of one minister would pay two Gardai for a year! Wake up!

But you would run out of ministers to cover your two policemen quite quickly. It doesn’t seem too harsh to take view when economic circumstances change so must pay and conditions . Not saying its a good thing .

Let them eat cake, ay?

Or how about the attitude given to Gardai, namely if the ministers don’t like it they can quit and get another job? Pfff!

25% rob plus new cut would bring it to 32% since start of austerity,

I agree with Rita Larkin.

Foreign Esf, what’s you’ve described sounds like an accurate description of nursing and nobody cares about marching for nurses while the wages are cut, work increased and yes, no one cares when we are assaulted regularly… Garda & nurses …. One is no more important than the other. Society cannot function without either, but you expect that the public should rally behind your cause in particular?… What makes you so much more important than everyone else being screwed over by the government?

Foreign Esf, what’s you’ve described sounds like an accurate description of nursing and nobody cares about marching for nurses while the wages are cut, work increased and yes, no one cares when we are assaulted regularly… Garda & nurses …. One is no more important than the other. Society cannot function without either, but you expect that the public should rally behind your cause in particular
?… What makes you so much more important than everyone else being screwed over by the government??

In fairness who’d rob your house.
Beside there’s no guards in your local station anyway.

In 1998 during the last Blue Flu there was no huge upsurge in crime with the exception of the shooting in Wicklow

Maybe we don’t need so many guards then.

@harry the journal is gauging people opinions in a cross sectional survey. I find the percentages displayed helpful even if they are not representatives of the overall population.

I think it’s quick and informative.

I was at that rally myself and saw a guy with a home made mace with nails driven through it on all sides. I also saw people throwing glass bottles at an older Garda on Burgh Quay. My friends and I left because of the violence from these so called ‘peaceful’ protesters. And to my knowledge no Guard was convicted of any wrongdoing.

I hope the government stands-up to the Unions.

Jack, look it up bud….. Also in the video clip you can see a young lad no more then 12 balling hes eyes out when the thug guard comes and tries to push them off the street!!! All because the marched in front of the Unions and not behind them like ”They were told”…. The Unions didnt move off there ass’s for nearly 2 yrs while still taking home as much as the Corrupt Government so why should people listen to them now!!!

Send me the link. I’ve never seen a Garda randomly assault anyone and I’m on this earth a fairly long time. And while you’re at it I’d like you to define ‘peaceful protest’. If the people who you claim were randomly assaulted for exercising their constitutional right to protest then I agree that it is wrong. Somehow though I don’t think it is how you portray it.

Jack its all over fb. I cant link aa Ive been in this planet a long time too. But I can assure you it happened. I was shocked as up to now I would have supported the gardai 100%. But this was above and beyond the call if duty. Some of them were inciting a riot themselves for no reason. The protesters at the front of the march showed remarkable restraint

Every person has a right to protest and any I’ve been to its the Gardai who have shown restraint. I’ve seen Gardai spat on, verbally abused and daubed with paint.

Well Jack its up to you what you want to see. I know what I saw I was there. And I never protested before but didnt want to march under any union banner which is my right. Not all gardai behaved in this manner I have to say. But some actually enjoyed it. These gardai need to be rooted out for the good of all. They taint the good ones

It’s not what I want to see and that’s a dreadfully cynical attitude. I see what’s in front of me and I can only speak about my experiences. No person should subject another to unlawful violence. When you been on enough protests you get to know the faces of those who are habitual troublemakers. I want to see everyone exercising their right to protest so long as that doesn’t mean infringing on the rights of anyone else. Everyone, including Gardai should
play by the rules. If protest were genuinely peaceful and within the constitution you keep referring to, then Gardai wouldn’t be needed at all.

The gardai were obviously led by the unions that day because the unions didnt want us in front of the march. I know what I saw and was shocked by it. There was no need for gardai kicking and pushing and grabbing the flag that day. They were peaceful protesters. If the gardai had their way there would have been a riot. They were provoking people to their last. But the protesters didnt rise to it. Included in the group protesting was a blind guy and a lady on crutches who had their ankles kicked.

Here you go Jack.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk63ivSqME8&feature=player_embedded

Guards pushing protesters off the road ect simply for protesting. Now don’t let the truth hurt you, I am sure they “were only following orders”

I watched that video and saw nothing wrong with it, Gardai showed great restraint in dealing with Anarchists trying to block a peaceful union protest. In fact the Gardai appear to be protecting the people’s right to protest which is being obstructed by some anonymous waster

You’ve actually done yourself a disservice by posting that. I only see one thug who wore a black leather jacket with his face covered and hood up. Are you totally blinded to reality. Your ‘protestors’ attempted to disrupted the others’ right to protest. Shame on you.

Couldn’t agree more. I have no time for violence whoever the perpetrator is but I think the Gardai should be commended for the restraint shown here. The ‘protestor’ in the leather jacket hadn’t the decency to show his face and was trying to provoke the Gardai. If someone is going to use video evidence it should really support their argument!! Idiots!!

Love it, stand up for the nation by covering your face with scarves, masks and hoodys!! What are they trying to hide? These “brave” men do not speak for me and the majority of Irish people..

Exactly Gearóíd…garda or private citizens..we all have the right to protest without getting intimidated and in some cases battered and with some gardai, their power goes to their head and they just lash out….

You’re forgetting that it’s the same minister and Garda commissioner who sent those Gardai to police those protests. They are the ones who deserve your anger. A Garda cannot refuse to perform their duty, regardless of their own personal views or face dismissal. I think that’s the point the rank and file Gardai are trying to make here. If a soldier goes to war it’s nothing personal against his opposite soldier, he is following orders.

they can decide whether they want to abuse their own people or not so in that regard i will ave to disagree with their heavy handed approach

I’ve been on many a march and never saw anyone being assaulted or abused by Gardai. I was never assaulted or abused by Gardai. I’m not saying you aren’t being truthful, I wasn’t there in this occasion so I don’t know the full circumstances. Maybe those you say were badly dealt with were doing something outside a peaceful protest.

That’s an obviously biased response by someone with a predisposition towards authority. If you have evidence that a guard committed an offence or crime you should bring that to the relevant authority and not make general anti establishment remarks on social media sites. The Irish police are by far the most approachable and reasonable police service I’ve ever met.

Some protesters in Rossport not innocent themselves. People seem to think that a peaceful protest means they can endanger/block traffic, hurl abuse at and goad the Gardai, damage private property etc etc

As for protesters in the Council buildings, most were ejected without incident or arrest. Some protesters were deemed by Gardai to have went too far and arrested.

Most people don’t seem to understand the term ‘reasonable force’ which is lawfully used to effect all arrests of persons suspected of committing an offence

The way they have treated the peaceful protesters in Rossport is shameful. The FF government gave away our oil and gas to Shell and have protected their interests ever since. The gardai should withdraw their protection with immediate effect. Its not like we,re going to benefit from our own natural recources. 25% tax only after Shells exploration costs have been deducted. its a bloody scam, Ray Burke he made the deal

Your lack of support for people who want to protect their rights is the kind of attitude that allows this gov to get away with cutting pay, and taxing the life and soul out if the hard working people country! They know there are so many pushovers like you about willing to accept everything they are giving! Shameful really!

See my previous comment. If you have never called in sick nor texted, tweeted or made/taken a phonecall in work then cast the first stone. Another one who wants to cherry pick what is right and wrong to suit their own standards. Idiot.

Dec, I think that Garda pay should be increased not decreased, my issue is with how the Gardai are going about this.

Jack, the last word in your comment is Idiot, so I won’t respond to that.

You just did respond, thus proving my last word.

I think the garda deserve better and in protest they should go on a “blu flu”, but I’d just wish some gardai would also respect the thousands of protesters across the country because some (and I say some) lash out very quickly with force on peaceful,protesting citizens who in many instances are protesting against cuts to gardai along with all the other cuts!!!!

They don’t have a union that’s the point. It’s the only way of getting the message across. The days of sitting down and hashing it out and coming up with a deal are gone. No more cuts.

If anyone was illegally treated by a Garda then you are fully entitled to make a complaint and follow legal procedure to have that Garda prosecuted as any other citizen.

Oh my, I was thumbed down. Some people just do not like the truth.

Are you telling us that a 19 year old was singled out and randomly assaulted by Gardai while engaging in a peaceful protest? I’m sorry, but I find that hard to believe. Are you sure you aren’t just sore because one of yours was sentenced last week for a vicious assault on a female Garda when he tried to break her neck?

Do you really believe any injury caused was intentional?????

I don’t think so but if you do and were there then make a complaint to GSOC

@ Jack ass…. Yes there was a 19 yr old assaulted by a THUG Guard in Plain Clothes in Dublin last nite, if you watched the news you would see it for yourself!! I can also link you videos of thug guards bullying protesters on the March on Saturday which are all over FB & Twitter…. I would support them but they need to understand there job which is to PROTECT the people of this Country, not bully and harass them!!

If the Gardai aren’t law enforcers them what is the point in their existence at all

Maybe your cat was poisoned by all the pent up venom you have for Gardai.

Troll

New rules everybody: blissfully accept every attack from your employer because you’re lucky to have a job. Don’t forget, no matter what your level of training and expertise, you can easily be replaced by any unemployed person at a fraction of your already plundered wage, who will just “snap up” your job.

Jack why make silly comments. They have a job that wouldn’t be for everyone, that said they were not forced into that career choice. Money should reflect the job, unsocial hours, risk, stress etc. Do you think if the frontline services get cut that will be that. The private sector will jump on this, minimum wage is at risk. Hotel workers will end up working for pittence. The country should unite and try take on the major problem, government collusion with bankers and foreign investors to bleed our country dry.

No. That’s the attitude I got from the guards. I have photographic evidence of loads of raw sausages laced with rat poison all over a neighbours garden. They’re not interested. They’d rather work out in their own gym at work.

@JB it takes two years to train a guard, 8000 go “sick”, fire them and have 3000 guards police the state. Makes sense to me

Jack are you havin a laugh, or am i missing something, was Adrian Donohoe going up to the credit union to get money to buy new sports equipment for his gym. Your generalisation of the Gardai does them a massive disservice, try not to generalise.

Maybe you should have kept your cat out of that garden with the sausages.

Cats are crap anyway jack. Moron!

I’m sorry. I’ve just had some really bad experiences with the Gardai over the last year. I have no idea what they are payed. I’m sorry.

Why don’t you make a film jack , Sounds exciting

Comedy gold jack comedy gold. I and btw if the neighbour wants t put poisoned sausages in his back garden there’s nothing to stop him really. It’s wrong but , that’s that

The police did NOTHING about an arsine attack either. My house was burnt down last May. I’m still alive and I had insurance but I’m traumatised and the Gardai were horrible. I shouldn’t have bothered telling the police about my cat being poisoned. Was told to get lost.

Well I hope nothing bad happens to you Jack Cass. You’re on your own. The Garda won’t be there for you. The guards never have even given me a phone call to say they’re still looking into the arsine attack.

Jack you have issues man.

Maybe the cat was allergic to sausages! Get CSI onto it

I do have issues with the Gardai.
I think they’re often very nasty people. That’s been my experience anyway.
To use the argument that because of that poor guy in Louth being shot that the Gardai should be payed loads in overtime is just wrong.