Praveen Halappanavar: “I still can’t believe that she’s not with us”
By Aoife Barry
PRAVEEN HALAPPANAVAR, THE husband of Savita Halappanavar, who passed away in October following a miscarriage, spoke about his experience tonight.
Speaking to Miriam O’Callaghan on RTÉ‘s Prime Time, he said that his wife kept asking “Why me?” when told that she was having a miscarriage at 17-weeks into her pregnancy. He said her heart was broken and she couldn’t believe what was happening to her.
He said she told her doctors she could not take the situation and wanted a termination. He said the doctor told his wife that unfortunately the foetus is still viable and “you know it’s a Catholic country and we won’t be able to terminate” the pregnancy. He said that Savita said she was not a Catholic or Irish, “so why impose the law on her”.
Praveen said the hospital support staff were amazing and they did everything they could. He said that he felt that everything was numb when his wife died. “It was the end of the world,” he said. “She wanted to live, have babies… I still can’t believe that she’s not with us.”
Regarding the fact that Savita was not allowed to have a termination, he said “we just can’t believe that in the 21st century something like this would happen”.
Praveen Halappanavar is requesting a public inquiry funded by the government and said that after seeing how his wife was treated, he has “no confidence that the HSE will do justice” to the investigation into her death. He said he does not want to be involved in the investigation or meet the chair of the investigation team.
He said he and his wife loved Ireland and he thanked people here and those across the world for the support they have shown.
This evening, hundreds of people gathered outside Leinster House calling for the Government to legislate for the X Case following the death of Savita Halappanavar.
Comments (51 Comments)
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Paddy Murray 22/11/12 Report this commentWhatever happened to freedom of choice. There was a similar case in cork last year seemly. James Reilly needs to go the man is like a headless chicken
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Michael 22/11/12 Report this comment…the choice for…who? Go ahead and draw the line for us there.
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Paul Mallon 22/11/12 Report this commentHere’s the line: It’s not your body, it’s not your choice.
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Michael 22/11/12 Report this commentWay to pander for green thumbs. I know this is irrelevant to the story above but would you believe a third trimester foetus can be aborted?
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David Watney 21/11/12 Report this commentI am against abortion but this country needs to change. Peoples belief systems should not be effecting all peoples lives ways like this. Citizens should be free in a Republic. Why have politicians in Ireland been so afraid, so unable to legislate for change, to legislate properly, for fairness and decency?
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Michael Skellig 21/11/12 Report this commentBecause they serve the Vatican state. They are treasonous.
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Peter Richardson 22/11/12 Report this commentThere are now two categories of pro-lifers. The first group is concerned that our pro-life laws may have contributed to Savita’s death and they genuinely are open to the possibility that bad law may apply. The other group of pro-lifers congratulate Ireland as having a high standard of maternal care, ignoring the specific avoidable tragedy and persist in asserting that Irish law is clear. We must remember that for many decades the pro-lifers maintained the life of a pregnant woman and the interests of her foetus could never conflict. Ideology demand the disregard of inconvenient facts.
Irish law creates a deadlock, a medical intervention paralysis, a stalemate if the medical treatment of the mother, unless her life is clearly and substantially under threat, could or might accelerate the expiry of the foetus. In practice, this increases the probability that the pregnant woman may die regardless of the outcome for the foetus.
My personal value is that the life of a pregnant woman and a foetus are qualitatively different. I cannot accept that a pregnant woman would be relegated in terms of medical priority to parity with a mere foetus.
Dhakina’s Sword expresses it more bluntly and cogently than I have. He spells out the actual result, the consequence that Savita has died and the foetus was lost anyway, not having had any chance of survival. Pro-life results in the otherwise avoidable death of a woman. Such a tragic waste. There will never be any apology because an apology would recognise the enormity of the consequence of the 1983 Referendum.
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Joe Traynor 22/11/12 Report this commentOr maybe some of us are Just sick of this incident being used to promote a particular agenda.
I don’t think it is fair to vilify the staff of any hospital without knowing the facts.
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Joan Featherstone 22/11/12 Report this commentAnnie I agree with you, and I have the utmost sympathy for this man.
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boildyeggs 22/11/12 Report this commentI agree Joe. This tragic event is being hijacked by the more extreme elements of the pro abortion side. Until all facts are established it is impossible to attribute full blame.
Having said that the ditherings of previous and the present government in not dealing with fulfilling their obligation to legislating for the x case was and is cowardly. They continue to play with mothers lives on a daily basis by not putting in place clear legislation protecting medical professionals.
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Michael Skellig 21/11/12 Report this commentStrong man. Can’t believe that Steen woman gets air time. Iona is an extreme organisation with no place in a modern secular western democracy.
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Oliver O'Neill 21/11/12 Report this commentIf only we were a secular republic but I’m afraid the hangover of religious superstition will be with us for another generation at least.
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michael o'toole 21/11/12 Report this comment@ Michael Skellig
“Can’t believe that Steen woman gets air time”
why ?
because she’s Pro Life & anti Abortion – is that why?
bet you consider yourself to be a Liberal.
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zedabelzer 21/11/12 Report this commentProbably because she spouts on about legislation existing where it does not, says that medical responses to situations where the mothers health or life is at risk are clear cut which they are not and she also disagrees with the Masters of the Maternity hospitals when she is not qualified to do so. She should stick to what she knows – whatever that is.
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Kerry Blake 22/11/12 Report this commentBit like yourself so Michael. Noticed in the prime time program she was quite happy to hang out the doctors in Galway. If you were a little less intolerant yourself you might understand that what most are talking about here is
providing legislation to cover the Supreme Courts judgement on the X case. Not abortion on demand but sure why would you be bothered in letting the facts cloud your better values.
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M Bowe 22/11/12 Report this commentIf he is a religious man he is not IMPOSING his beliefs on the rest of the nation who do not share those beliefs. Worship what you please but don’t impose it on me.
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michael o'toole 22/11/12 Report this comment@ Kerry Blake:
you must have watched a different Prime Time progam to me.
she said that there were a number of possibilities, but that all of the evidence had to be considered.
i think you’re being deliberately unfair to ms Steen, who i hadn’t heard of before.
no one – not even you should reach a conclusion in this case, without hearing the evidence, from all sides.
BTW – the people here who are advocating that those whose views they disagree with, should be banned from the airways, seem to be of your ilk.
i not suggested censorship pf anyone’s vieweven those of Clare Daly & Ivana Bacik, whose views, i fundamentally disagree with.
that would be intolerant – i’d be a bigot.
i’m Pro Choice
my choice is to try & defend the lives of unborn babies, against those who want abortion on demand in this state.
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Kerry Blake 22/11/12 Report this commentIndeed I probably did watch a different prime time to you Michael. I understand the debate is not about “abortion on demand” but giving effect to the Supreme Court judgement arising from the X case. Something by the way we were told could never occur during the referendum prior to that case. We were also told no one would die. That it seems was also wrong.
My Ilk? What’s my ilk? I’m pretty sure I’ve not suggested anyone should be banned from the “airwaves” nor do I call people who I disagree with bigots.
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michael o'toole 22/11/12 Report this comment@ Kerry Blake:
the program was not about “giving effect to the Supreme Court judgement”
it was about Parveen’s interview.
you accused ms Steen of being “quite happy to hang out the doctors in Galway”
untrue.
you did not criticize those here who advocated that ms Steen should not be allowed to express her views,
but you insinuated that i was intolerant & a bigot, although i didn;t advocate that those who i disagree with, be prevented from freely expressing their views.
you say – “We were also told no one would die” ?????
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Michael 22/11/12 Report this commentMichael O’toole here, is right on principle even though he has no tact whatsoever. He’s simply pointing out that anyone who condemns the pro-life people are bigots, to which they are if they are using slurs and ad hominem attacks, to which they do 95% of the time.
This legislation will go too far, when it is eventually introduced. It should be that the life of the mother is saved, in my opinion, the child on the other hand is another matter, not for this discussion.
Remember how small a sliver of people we have in the journal.ie community, we are not the silent majority, which is almost always overlooked.
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Ian Stephenson 22/11/12 Report this commentThat’s not pro choice btw ! Pro choice means that you are in favour of people making there own choice …. what you are espousing is that you want people to have a choice but only a choice to chose what you find acceptable. That’s anti choice. I, like you, am a man and feel I have no right to impose my beliefs one way or the other on a woman’s choice in whatever situation she is in regarding her own body. Much like in the reverse situation I have no right to dictate to a 19 y o mother of 3 what she does with her body. It’s not a matter of right or wrong black or white. It’s a deeply personal matter which should be de politicised. And religion of ANY denomination should have NO bearing.
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Frank2521 21/11/12 Report this commentIf this poor man thinks our government cares he is in for a shock. Our government only care about looking after their own like Raoiri Quinn giving a job with a huge salary to Gilmore’s wife. This man is right not to trust anybody involved with our corrupt government.
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Mensah Mensah 21/11/12 Report this commentIn this modern world people still use religion to kill…may her soul rest in peace..
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moe sizlack 21/11/12 Report this commentSo the children act that was passed a few weeks ago, does this act protect the unborn child ?
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zedabelzer 21/11/12 Report this commentWhat unborn child Moe? She wasn’t having a baby she was having a miscarriage.
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Gerri McCaffery 21/11/12 Report this commentWhy should Gilmore’s wife have to give up her career when all her colleagues in the former VEC are being moved to the Dept of Education! And what has that got to do with this issue?
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Diarmaid Mac Aonghusa 21/11/12 Report this commentIs there any thread, no matter how sensitive the topic, that you don’t hijack to have a go at Ruairi Quinn? It is really, really tedious. Please stop. (and learn how to spell his name!)
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Peter Richardson 21/11/12 Report this commentWhatever about the specific facts of Savita’s case, it has now been revealed that Article 40.3.3 of the Irish Constitution is not fit for purpose in effectively securing and vindicating the right to life of pregnant women. I favour a pro-life approach for pregnant women. The only way to establish clarity and remove the legal quagmire is to recognise the antecedent and superior right to life of pregnant women over the existence of a foetus. This requires the repeal of Article 40.3.3 of the Constitution and this can only be done by Referendum.
A Public Tribunal Of Inquiry is inefficient, slow and expensive. A statutory Commission of Investigation legally constituted under the Commission of Investigation Act, 2004 with power to compel evidence and witnesses might provide a compromise in this matter.
I would prefer not to personalise this towards anyone in particular but the injustices to other persons who are Irish should not detract from Savita and Praveen. I see them as people first. Their nationality is irrelevant to me.
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JakkiB 22/11/12 Report this commentWell said Peter
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Michael 22/11/12 Report this commentAs correctly pointed out, we must follow the constitution in this republic we are in.
A lot of people have this small oversight from time to time
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Deirdre Mac Mahon 22/11/12 Report this commentTotally agree with your posts Michael and can’t understand the red thumbs .
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michael o'toole 22/11/12 Report this comment@ Deirdre Mac Mahon:
there is a huge amount of intolerance & bigotry, on this site, Deirdre.
the “red thumbs” are badges of honour, to those of us who believe in free speech, & in standing up the bully boys & girls.
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JakkiB 21/11/12 Report this commentRegardless of where a woman is from if any womans goes to hospital tonight in the same condition the risks are the same, The only difference is the World is watching this and our Government are flapping all over the place looking like the fools we know them to be….Good turn out at the Dail tonight and it will be the same next week!
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Peter Richardson 22/11/12 Report this commentThe essential and core facts are clear enough. Clinicians were unable to apply appropriate medical care, a timely inducement. Legally there were precluded from so doing as as a result of Article 40.3.3 of the Constitution which makes no distinction between a viable and a non viable foetus. The clinicians had to stand back and I have no doubt that unless they belonged to a pro-life group, they must have been anguished by that legal obligation.
The practical effect of Article 40.3.3 is to give priority in a case such as this because the clinicians are legally obliged to let the heart of the foetus cease beating before they can intervene. Praveen’s account is clear and reliable. His description of the position of the clinicians accords with the legal position and I really can’t see how the clinicians could have acted otherwise unless it decided the pretend that there was no longer any heart beat present, which is what some clinicians might do but thereby committing a very serious criminal offence. Irish law does not yet legislate for therapeutic abortions and that is truly a scandal.
Savita had to be refused potentially life saving medical treatment for the sake of not accelerating the expiry of the foetus. It’s a warped and in humane legal regime which prioritises a few hours or 2 days of foetal heart beat over the long and emotionally rich life of a young woman who had so much to live for.
So, distractions are thrown in. We have to await an inquiry when an inquiry can’t change the basic facts, there are snide references to the possibility that there was gross medical neglect by the clinicians, for which allegations there is no indication whatsoever, to distractions about there only being a fuss due to Savita’s nationality, to anger at India for expressing interest in this matter, to criticising Praveen for not trusting the HSE. I notice a pattern of distraction and non-sequiturs and these are designed to move us away from the core an unalterable reality that the laws of this State , pro-life laws compelled the outcome of the death of Savita. We now know the price in human life of adopting ideological positions. Some religions, such as Roman Catholicism with its centuries long Spanish Inquisition, as just one example, exterminated many human lives , all for ideology.
Let us prioritise human life instead. Our laws should be humane and compassionate. My fear is that there may have been other cases such as Savita’s in Ireland since 1983 but clinicians may have preferred not to explain to less well educated people why they could not act. Praveen has exposed the terrible consequences of bad law, blunt law, law which requires an expiring foetus to be prioritised over the survival of a human being, a young woman. To be blind to that fundamental and shocking reality, shows an appalling lack of empathy and humanity. There are none so blind as does who will not see.
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The kop 21/11/12 Report this commenti do and i don’t agree with you Tom…. i think the timing of the interview was all wrong… it should have been held back until any enquires are finished… to avoid any chance of prejudice being caused..of course a proper enquiry is what is needed…..
and what this family suffered never be repeated….
i also feel this should not be used by either pro life or pro choice to voice their campaigns … people should take a breather and let this family grieve the loss of their loved ones….
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Kerry Blake 21/11/12 Report this commentHeartbreaking interview. Hopefully he and his family will get what they have requested a public inquiry and very soon.
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Peter Richardson 22/11/12 Report this commentMichael O’Toole, a pro-life advocate , abuses pro-choice advocates as “bigots”. The irony amuses me. It would be an ad hominem argument, and therefore I will refrain from characterising extreme pro-life advocates as extremists.
The question I ask myself in this. If I were a woman and anticipating a medically problematical pregnancy would I prefer the clinicians to be bigoted in favour of the life of the mother in preference to the interests of the foetus?
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michael o'toole 22/11/12 Report this comment@ Peter Richardson
you say – “Michael O’Toole, a pro-life advocate , abuses pro-choice advocates as “bigots”. ”
untrue.
O’Toole commented that those who advocated that ms Steen should not be allowed to express her views,were intolerant & bigots, & that’s his opinion of those who attempt to impose censorship on free debate on any subject.
BTW O’Toole is not a member of any Pro Life group, or an “advocate” – not even an 2extreme advocate”
he’s just an individual expressing his opinion on this forum.
& BTW – O’Toole is very much Pro Choice.
it’s just that his choice is to try & defend the life of unborn babies, against those who want abortion on demand in this state.
the majority on this forum, including your goodself appear not to like his choice,
or so, it appears to the “extremist” O’Toole.
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Michael 22/11/12 Report this commentWell he’s merely firing back, to be honest. We all love ‘equality’ don’t we.
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Dhakina's Sword 22/11/12 Report this commentThere is something really strange occurring here. So called pro life advocates have succeeded in their campaign, but only at the expense of a woman’s death. The right to unviable life is more important than an already existing life? Really? . Everybody loses. Death wins. Pro life?, when their both dead?. Are you people happy now?. They’re both dead. Do you get it now, you so called pro life people?, they’re both dead?.
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Michael 22/11/12 Report this commentLook, pro life people can turn around to pro choice people and say, “look at all the blood on your hands from the abortions of the world” as you say that.
I’m sorry, I don’t buy your argument.
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Kevin Elliott 22/11/12 Report this commentI think that the majority of pro-life people accept that a mother’s life should be given supremacy over an unborn baby. Unfortunately for some people the abortion debate isn’t about what is right or wrong it’s about who wins. I think it would be dishonest of us to believe that is not true of both sides at times
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Kerry Blake 21/11/12 Report this commentNot the impression I got from the interview. Seeing the cack handed way the HSE has handled this so far I’m not surprised he has no trust in them.
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Peter Richardson 22/11/12 Report this comment@ Mags Whelan, I have been struggling to discern logic in Michael O’Toole’s post. When I read your post a few minutes ago, I realised why. Michael’s posts consist of distractions, non sequiturs and false comparisons. One avoidable tragedy is not justified or excused by other tragedies or injustices. All are unacceptable. Savita should not have had to die. She was exposed to infection due to dangerously defective law inspired and procured by extreme pro life elements in 1983. A woman’s life should be sacred. As a man said in the Irish Times, his wife’s life is worth all the foetuses in the universe.
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michael o'toole 22/11/12 Report this comment@ Peter Richardson:
O’Toole’s comment that you refer to was just a response to a commentator who posed the question, as to whether this tradegy would have merited the same attebtion if the victim was Irish.
no more, no less.
of course the truth is that the tradegy of the poor travelling woman – mother of 12 children, attracted zero attention.
the subseuent case against the consultant, who was cleared of all charges attracted national attention.
that’s just the basic facts of the matter.
you are wrong to accuse me of “distractions, non sequiturs and false comparisons.”.
all i did was respond to a question posed by someone else.
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Fiachra Lennon 22/11/12 Report this commentYou’re quite the troll, Michael O’Toole.
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Réada Cronin 21/11/12 Report this commentIf Enda Kenny and James Reilly had an ounce of human decency he should announce a public enquiry forthwith. Heartbreaking interview on RTEpt.
Meanwhile the pro-lifers continue to hang the good Catholic doctors in Galway out to dry. Hypocrites all.
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Eddie Barrett 21/11/12 Report this commentIsn’t it really time that the always arrogant & incompetent Dr O’Reilly resigned , as his little plan to manipulate this mans wife’s injustice , with his HRI Insider has as usual, gone the way his crazy plans always go?
He is such an embarrassment .
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Liz Fitzpatrick Corcoran 22/11/12 Report this commentEnda a bollice shame on all involved!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Poor man without he’s wife !!!!!!!!!!
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Michael 22/11/12 Report this commentI’m trying to see how all “pro-lifers” are religious?
You aren’t the majority of people that you think you are
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Nick Beard 22/11/12 Report this commentThe majority of Irish people support legislating for X and allowing abortions in cases of fatal foetal abnormalities, rape and incest. Countless polls and two referendum support this. If you don’t, then you’re the minority, sorry.
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Michael 22/11/12 Report this commentNick, have you got numbers to back that up? Or just a red-top concensus?
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Michael 22/11/12 Report this commentNick, have you got numbers to back that up? Or just a red-top consensus?
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David Watney 21/11/12 Report this commentThat is a grossly insensitive comment. If anything Praveen and his family are making an issue of this so his wife’s needless death will mean something.
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Shane O Malley 22/11/12 Report this commentA woman who was forced to travel to Britain for an abortion despite being terminally ill has been awarded ‘substantial’ compensation by the State, the Irish Times reports. Michelle Harte of Wexford, who has since died of cancer, sued for violation of her human rights last year after Cork University Hospital advised her to terminate her pregnancy because of the risk to her health, but would not authorise an abortion
In this case they paid out in record time hoping it would stay hushed up,, political cowardice ,,be sure if it was a government ministers wife or daughter there would be no refusals or trips to england,, spineless government run by spineless ministers
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Frank Kiernan 22/11/12 Report this commentanother disgrace! another inquiry required. . more proof of the urgency of this legislation!
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Kerry Blake 22/11/12 Report this commentNo, his wife is died while in the care of the Irish state. He has every right to request a public enquiry into the reasons why she died, just as any Irish citizen should have the same right.
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Jelena Terzic 22/11/12 Report this commentI think it’s a good time for the interview. He had an opportunity to give his reasons for declining to cooperate with HSE investigation and reasons for asking for a public investigation, and rightly so. How is he supposed to trust the same people that made the decision not to help his wife and let her to die, or their best pals from the same hospital, for that matter? They will always protect each other’s backs, and that’s why an independent and public inquiry is needed.
I don’t see any reason why someone should be allowed to work in a hospital and make cold blooded decisions about someone else’s life and still be protected after that someone dies. I don’t see why consultants that we pay hefty salaries to should be spared the inconvenience of appearing in a public inquiry. If they have nothing to hide, and if they have nothing to be ashamed of, and if they did nothing wrong, what are they afraid of?
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Kerry Blake 21/11/12 Report this commentDon’t think India has been ‘pontificating’ on the issue Keith. All I’ve seen / heard is the Indian ambassador saying he is monitoring the situation.
In past times in fact up to recent times the Irish record on child protection has been pretty horrific as well.
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Larry Murphy 21/11/12 Report this commentThe legal profession will milk a new inquiry like the other past ones. We need another “vehicle” to bring about a just solution.
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Alan Little 21/11/12 Report this commentand rightly so.
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Mary Mc Carthy 22/11/12 Report this commentYou would have to have a heart of stone not to be moved by this man’s interview last night on Prime Time. It should never have come to this , a situation where he lost his young wife. I always thought that Doctors took a oath to do the best for their patients. In this case it was clear that the foetus could not and would not survive . People seem to have missed the point that she entered the hospital already miscarrying her child. She did not seek a termination just for the sake of it. The humane thing to do in this case was to carry out a D&C to avoid more physical and mental anguish to the patient. It is barbaric to leave any woman in a situation where her baby is dying and do nothing. This is a case of doing the best for your patient and and nothing to do with abortion !!!!
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Frank Kiernan 22/11/12 Report this commentAnnie . It was indeed Irish law killed Savita and it’s catholic ethos.. and that must be changed religion has no place interfering in state or medical affairs. and those pro lifers who say we don’t know what happened, that’s bull and you are essentially calling Praveen a liar.. I admire his courage and honesty .
I hope if he does not get the justice Savita deserves he takes it to Europe.
at this stage Europe should be saying enough is enough and impose sanctions on Ireland until our cowardly government are forced to do the right thing and legislate this country out of the dark ages..
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Fussy Galore 21/11/12 Report this commentI give out about RTE and their overpaid “stars” but I have to say they do certain things very well. Hats off to Miriam for doing such a compassionate interview.
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fizi_water 22/11/12 Report this commentHe is absolutely right. I would not trust them either. He is here on his own foreign country foreign continent. Medical services are sweeping too many botched jobs under the carpets.
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Shane O Malley 22/11/12 Report this commentsome day this government just might get something right,,everything they put their hands to they mess up,, heaven help us,,we are doomed
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Irene Kavanagh 22/11/12 Report this comment‘only pregnant women should make decision on Abortion’.
Well said Vincent browne in yesterday’s Irish times.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/1121/1224326896233.html
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michael o'toole 22/11/12 Report this comment@ Irene Kavanagh:
do you by any chance know, Irene, if the ol geezer Browne also believed that only children should vote in the recent Children’s Rights referendum ?
so the ol gezer is even more extreme than the ‘No uterus, No opinion’ brigade !!!
not only will we be checked to see if we have an uterus,
we wll also need to undergo a pregnancy test !!
& you’re impressed by all this, Irene ??
it’s not April 1st, is it ?
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Peter Richardson 22/11/12 Report this comment@ Kevin McCann, good question. A statutory process would be the private investigation and public report of a Commission of Investigation under the Commission of Investigation Act introduced to provide a fast, efficient, less lawyered and cumbersome than a Public Tribunal of Inquiry. There should be a legally rigorous and powerful investigation. Although I can see merit in a HIQA inquiry, it’s role is legally confined to standards of hospital care and would not have the vires/ power to look at wider issues such as the legal and ethical dimension. It has no role in regulation of clinicians. There are many other disadvantages but my postings tend to be far too long and I’ll try to limit to core points.
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Liz Fitzpatrick Corcoran 21/11/12 Report this commentMy heat went out to this man so sad
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Richie Brennan 22/11/12 Report this commentBoth pro choice and pro life are making me sick at the moment. They are both jumping on and making the most of this poor mans grief to further their own goals.
I honestly do not believe it is getting us any closer to legislation that is desperately needed in this country. Legislation that will clarify for any and all medical practitioners exactly what the legal position is to be.
To the pro life lobby I say if the legal position truly is that clear why the reaction to the government putting it into an Act of the Oireachtas? This is a republic and we are entitled to any legal clarity we desire.
To the pro choice lobby, there is a real risk that this could backfire. After all the anger which is very real and justified there must be a constructive approach. There are no findings or conclusions from this tragedy yet. If Savitas Law is to become a reality it will only be done on the basis of fact.
While I may not be particularly religious I find it unpalatable the amount of ridicule people are made to feel for their religious beliefs. It does not strengthen the argument and all too often can detract from it. To ridicule like this does not as some might like to believe make you more liberal.
We all demand the facts, for conclusions to be drawn and acted on but we need the actual facts of this case first.
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Shanti Om 22/11/12 Report this commenthttp://corkfeminista.com/2012/11/21/press-release-galway-pro-choice-were-approached-by-savitas-friends/
In terms of the having respect for the mans wishes, and those of her family and friends, the pro choice side are merely doing what he asked. To ensure that this never happens again and that his wife will not have died in vain.
Can’t speak for the pro life side.. I don’t think he ever contacted them. I wonder if he did ask the life institute to stop using his wife’s name and situation in their campaign efforts would they stop? Not that they should have to, just wondering if “out of respect” they would..
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Richie Brennan 22/11/12 Report this comment@ shanti
I really do commend those friends who approached your organisation, such friendship is invaluable.
On the issue of how pro life campaigners might use Savita’s name, I would hope with absolute respect and according to the wishes of her family.
But here is the issue, and I direct this equally at both pro life and pro choice campaigners; without any facts established from this tragic case, where exactly do we go from here? How do we affect change in this country? How do we ensure that Irish law is representative of Ireland in 2012?
Change must be made on the basis of fact and reason, and any argument must be made on the same basis. My fear at present is that in the face of such unimaginable grief we will once again be left waiting for another 20 years. Surely that option regardless of where you stand on this issue is simply not an option.
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Michael 22/11/12 Report this commentRichie, we need more people than think like you.
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Paul Mallon 22/11/12 Report this comment@Richie I think Peter Richardson’s post above spells it out quite clearly what needs to be done.
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Richie Brennan 22/11/12 Report this comment@paul
Not sure which of Peters posts you refer exactly but I have no problem with Peters analyse of these issues.
This is an issue that is way to important not to get right. But, I do fear that the issue can be sidetracked and descend into a shouting match with the result of nothing achieved.
It should be obvious to all involved that to succeed people must be convinced by the force of your factual argument.
There are a number of enquiries still to be held and until they are, people in general will continue to hide away from the facts and not challenge their own points of view.
This needs to be done with people as informed as they possibly can be. We constantly need to challenge ourselves and our views which we may have held for many years. If we do not the status quo will remain and again I say that cannot be an option for either the pro choice or pro life campaigns.
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Shanti Om 22/11/12 Report this comment@ Richie – may I point out for the sake of clarity. This is not my organisation. I merely saw this post tweeted by the organisation and felt I should share it.
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Richie Brennan 22/11/12 Report this comment@Shanti
Apologies, not sure where I got that idea.
Most certainly was not an attempt to try and show you as being pro or anti anything. You can more than speak for yourself.
Glad you did decide to share it!! And especially hope that we (the public) are provided with a lot more information as soon as possible on this tragic case.
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Shanti Om 22/11/12 Report this commentNo apologies necessary. I just said that to ensure that I was not taking credit for something I have no part in. I respect those who are, but credit should go to where it is due :)
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Michael Skellig 21/11/12 Report this commentNo Tom. You’re off the mark on that one.
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Patrick Linehan 21/11/12 Report this commentHere’s a mad idea. Lets have an inquiry in the open, in full view of the public, with TV, journalists, etc present, where all the parties involved have to attend under threat of jail for contempt. No lawyers, solicitors, barristers, etc are allowed to intervene or even be present. Then the findings handed directly to the DPP and they deciding how to advance the outcome!! Or am I pissing into the wind???
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Thinkshpake 21/11/12 Report this commentRidiculous on so many levels
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Thinkshpake 21/11/12 Report this commentMay as well have it on Jeremy Kyle in that case… Cop on
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Michael 22/11/12 Report this comment“Guilty until proven innocent”
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boildyeggs 22/11/12 Report this commentAs you said, your covering yourself in urine. Remarkably silly idea.
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Patrick Moran 21/11/12 Report this commentMust admit, I’m tending to come round to Tom’s way of thought. I saw the interview and think it would be difficult to not be touched by it, very cleverly and sensationally produced by Prime Time as usual. But as I was watching it the thought wondered into my head – would this be as high profile a story as it is if events happened exactly as they did but the woman in question was Irish ?
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Kerry Blake 21/11/12 Report this commentGoing back 20 years the X case was pretty high profile in Ireland and internationally Patrick and no one died in that case and the teenager involved was Irish.
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Patrick Moran 21/11/12 Report this commentWhile I’m familiar with the X Case I’m afraid I don’t remember the atmosphere around it in Ireland and abroad as I was too young at the time to even know it was going on. Let me say that I sympathise with the family of the lady whose life was cut short prematurely, I do feel very saddened by the whole series of events. This has almost become an international diplomatic incident however, and that in itself politicises it and heaps ever more pressure and urgency on establishing exactly what happened. And therein is my point – we’ve heard only one side of the story so far and its high profile nature means that half the country has already executed Ireland for this lady’s death. We have no established facts yet from an impartial inquiry, but the tide of public opinion – formed from one half of a story – has been strong enough to gather momentum such as we are observing. If the lady was Irish, well the international diplomatic side of things wouldn’t come into it and it would be one less thing stoking the fire, so to speak.
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michael o'toole 21/11/12 Report this commentwell Patrick.
there was a recent case in my home town, where a mother of 12 children in her 30s – a member of the travelling community, went into hospital for a minor procedure,
somehing went wrong & she died.
i don’t even know if it was reported in the local press – i didn’t hear of it.
the first i heard of it was in recent weeks, when a case was brought against the consultant involved.
incidentally, the consultant who was not Irish – he may have been Indian or Pakestinian, was cleared of all charges.
the unfortunate lady & her family wasn’t middle class,
she wasn’t exotic looking,
her ‘problem’ wasn’t pregnancy related,
so the pro abortion lobby didn’t jump on the bandwagon.
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Patrick Moran 21/11/12 Report this commentThat wasn’t a sexy enough case Michael. This one is and hence I end up talking to you on Journal.ie.
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Kerry Blake 21/11/12 Report this commentFair enough Patrick I’m (sadly) old enough to remember the atmosphere and what was said by people who should have known better.
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Eileen Gabbett 21/11/12 Report this commentOct 6 2012 http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/1006/1224324960249.html
Two women died in the Coombe
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Mags Whelan 22/11/12 Report this comment@michael O Toole
What a ridiculous comparison to make!! The issue at hand here is thanks to our outdated abortion laws a woman lost her life. Although very sad about the woman you mention in the travelling community, I doubt her death was caused by archaic laws with a bit of help from narrow minded pro lifers!
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michael o'toole 22/11/12 Report this comment@ Patrick Moran
Patrick – you say “That wasn’t a sexy enough case Michael”. – yeah , i think that’s part of the explanation.
BTW – i understand that the Galway hospital where Sabita tragically died, has an excellent record in relation to childbirth,
but it hasn’t a 100% record – that’s impossible for any hospital, anywhere.
i understand that the last lady to die in that hospital, as a result of ‘childbirth dificulties’ was about 18 years ago.
i don’t know how much publicity, if any, that tragedy attracted.
not very much, i’d expect.
one reason, i’d contend was that the pro-abortion lobby wasn’t so strong back then.
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Shanti Om 22/11/12 Report this commentMichael.
The lady’s name was SAVITA. Please, show more respect and get her name right.
Also, try to remember that she was having a miscarriage, not giving birth.
I may have missed the point but this traveller woman went in for a procedure and died – which is perhaps more common than you would think. Savita on the other hand was told that she was miscarrying the baby that she had been eagerly awaiting the birth of, she had come to terms with the idea that this would not happen and ASKED for them to terminate. To effectively speed up the inevitable and was refused a medical procedure because of the presence of a doomed heartbeat.
There appears to be a Grand Canyon between the two cases, unless this traveller woman requested medical intervention in a similar situation and was refused?
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michael o'toole 22/11/12 Report this comment@ Mags Whelan:
Mags – sorry but we don’t know, at all, at all, that Savita’s death ” was caused by archaic laws with a bit of help from narrow minded pro lifers!”
we don’t know why she died,
that’s why all concerned are seeking an enquiery..
the only argument is the type of enquiery.
of course, if Mags Whelan was infalible, they’d be no need for any enquiery.
Mags may be extremely arrogant,
but she’s not infalible.
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michael o'toole 22/11/12 Report this comment@ Shanti Om
i didn’t intend to disrespect anyone by my spelling error – you know that,
but you can’t resist being judgemental..
IF matters occurred as you describe them, then i believe that there would be a case against the medical person/persons responsible.
BUT the evidence from all concerned has to be heard & considered before any such conclusion can be reached.
you have already done me an injustice, by suggesting that i was disrespectful to Savita, God rest her.
that’s not too serious – i forgive you.
it’s far, far more serious to reach a conclusion & condemn someone for the tragic death, before all the evidence is considered,
& i can’t forgive you for that.
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M Bowe 22/11/12 Report this commentThis was Not a case of Child birth. The pregnancy was never going to go full term or end in a birth. So all these stats about Ireland’s high standing on births is just smoke screen.
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Shanti Om 22/11/12 Report this commentThat’s a fine catch of red herring there Michael.
Again, I put it to you, how does the case you reference compare to this in any way shape or form? I used the facts as they have been reported, based upon interviews with Savitas widower Praveen, are you suggesting that he is a liar?
By the way if it was a typo fair enough, my apologies.. No need to go chucking any more arsenic in that well..
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michael o'toole 22/11/12 Report this comment@Shanti Om:
the comment of mine that you refer to was a response to another comment.
i wasn’t comparing the two cases – on the contrary, as a response, i was contrasting them.
one of the cases occurred in my local hospital.
how dare you suggest that i “suggest that Praveen is a liar?”
a person accused of the most henious crime is entitled to a fair trial, involving all relevant evidence.
the Galway medical team are surely entitled to that much at least, before a verdict is reached ???
but on the evidence of much of the comment here, including yours, it appears that there’s no need to hear all sides of the story.
re my typo errors
you are the only one who is “chucking more arsenic in that well”
you already accused me of being disrespectul to Pavita.
i told you i intended no disrespect
it should be clear to you that my keyboard skills are far from perfect,
but you find it hard to admit that you were wrong – don’t you.
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Paul Mallon 22/11/12 Report this commentIrrespective of the reason this case is in the media, the core issues remain the same.
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Shanti Om 22/11/12 Report this commentAh now Michael.
The original comment you responded to asked if the SAME situation had happened with an Irish woman would it have got the same reaction.
You told a story with no details besides “she had a procedure and died”. Is it the same situation? In my first response to you I pointed out that I may have for the wrong end of the stick and that there appeared to be some range of difference, I tried to point out that difference – but I did state that I may have misunderstood your point.
YOU took my mistake in correcting your typo and used it as an excuse to cast your assumptions on me. Did I not apologise for making this mistake?
I also asked you to clarify – why bring this terrible death under completely unknown circumstances up in relation to this case where we have substantially more information, the information I referenced in my reply..
I did not accuse you of calling Savitas widower a liar, I asked if you were disputing the facts I listed as they were taken from him.
Now.. Would YOU like to apologise as I already have done where I was wrong?
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michael o'toole 22/11/12 Report this comment‘@ Shanti Om:
apologise for what ??
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Shanti Om 22/11/12 Report this commentYou said that I couldn’t resist being judgemental, yet I apologised for castigating you over a typo.
You also say I can’t admit that I am wrong – when I already had..
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michael o'toole 22/11/12 Report this comment@ Shanti Om
i neither asked for, or expected an apology from you.
you did me wrong – nevertheless, i had moved on & forgot about it, & i told you i had moved on.
time for you to move on now
i would like it if you tried to be a bit more fairminded in future.
that’s all.
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Jelena Terzic 22/11/12 Report this commentboildyeggs,
That may be your perception of things. However, are you a mother? How many babies did you have in an Irish hospital?
I, for one, am a mother and have had a baby in an Irish hospital. I had a complicated birth, and if wasn’t for an Iraqi doctor on shift that night, I would of been left to suffer for another 24 hours before Irish midwives would allow me to have a C-section. Imagine, a luxury of having a C-section in a catholic country – it’s not natural and god given and it shouldn’t be done. Just look up percentages of C-sections per hospital, the statistics differ greatly and it is all due to the management of the hospital. If there wasn’t for that Iraqi doctor, I could of possibly ended up in the same place as Savita, as I had also developed an infection after 2 days in the hospital. Should I also mention the hygiene in the hospital which is supposedly the best in the country, a pre-delivery room with around 30 beds in it and only 2 toilets, not cleaned often enough? Should I also mention that I was sent home twice before they had a bed for me? Beds in a hospital are also a great luxury in this country. Our tax money spent on more important things like bankers gambling problems is considered a necessity though.
Now, the consultants. Mine was more on conferences than in the hospital, as he was also the Master in the hospital, that’s kind of a superstar in consultants world. Few times that I saw him, he measured my blood pressure and asked me how I was, the ultrasound machine was never working when he was there, and I saw more of his students during those 9 months than him. Of course, he was not in the hospital during the birth of my son, as it was a bank holiday weekend, and who can expect HIM to work on a holiday on a mere 150000 euros a year.
So, I am speaking as a compassionate person. I am also speaking as a person with experience of Irish hospitals. I am also speaking as a foreigner living in this country for quite a while. I get it, most of the Irish people never lived abroad, have never seen hospitals in other countries, so they think this is good because they don’t know it can be better, so they are putting up with it. They are no longer breaking our pelvises as they used to do in the sixties, they are giving us C-sections. Wow. First ultrasound when you are 18 weeks pregnant? It should be 8 weeks. No tests for abnormalities whatsoever unless you insist on them and the list goes on.
So boildyeggs, I hope you are a mother and I hope your babies were born in one of the great hospitals in this country and I sincerely hope and am eagerly waiting to hear your story, that’s if you will share it with us. And if you don’t have one to share, please spare us all of clever remarks as above.
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Mike Clinton 21/11/12 Report this commentWhy not leave the man and his family to grieve the death of his Wife.
He is being used as a political pawn and his late Wife as a benchmark.
Her sad and untimley death is in the worldwide spotlight.
The press and legal profession are putting words into his mouth.
I feel so sorry for him.
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Kerry Blake 21/11/12 Report this commentDid you watch the interview on Prime Time this evening Mike? I did and I must admit I didn’t see any prompting cards did you? Did you hear the question as to why he went public and did you hear his answer?
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Patrick Moran 22/11/12 Report this commentI don’t think anyone is putting words in the mans mouth Mike. Praveen seems perfectly capable of formulating his own stance.
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Annie 21/11/12 Report this commentTheir record on gendercide and treatment of women in general but that’s forgotten here. Throwing stones In a glass house? And as Iv read it said before- the irish law has to apply to people here in Ireland. If an Irish person committed murder in India they wud be condemned to death, Irish or not! What makes them think irish law won’t apply to them because they Indian. In saying that I don’t think it was the Irish law that resulted in this woman’s death. We shall await the Result of investigation if her husband decide to comply with it that is
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David 21/11/12 Report this comment@tom That is the most ignorant comment I’ve read on here. If your mother never gave you attention as a child, or you’re not getting enough attention during your days, don’t come on here trying to get attention and make yourself feel special. Idiot.
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Kevin Mc Cann 21/11/12 Report this commentDo we really need a public enquiry. There has to be a better way of getting to a resolution.
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Kerry Blake 21/11/12 Report this commentPossible HIQA – has been suggested to the family and they have not said no yet.
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Kay Campbell 22/11/12 Report this commentwell stated
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Phil Mc Donald 21/11/12 Report this commentYou could at least spell her name correctly…
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Chris Kubik 22/11/12 Report this commentI think we need to differentiate between abortion and termination. The main argument as a first step obviously is to allow a pregnancy being terminated for medical reasons if the mother’s life is at risk. A lot of people get this wrong and mix it up with abortion which is clearly different.
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jimboandbear 22/11/12 Report this commentYeah that’s the anti-choice lobby’s stance. They want to pretend a termination is different to an abortion.
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Nick Beard 22/11/12 Report this commentIt’s not clearly different. Have you read a medical textbook? An abortion is a premature end to a pregnancy (including a termination and a miscarriage). A termination is most certainly an abortion.
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Irene Kavanagh 22/11/12 Report this commentWell said nick. Abortion is termination. We need to be honest and more open about this issue and not cover it up. There is a whole myriad of legal and medical issues in determining at what point does abortion become a ‘life threatening’ issue. There has been plenty of coverage regarding the problems in trying to determine ‘this point’.
Every pregnancy and abortion case is individual and so the choice needs to be with the pregnant woman.
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Lorna McDonnell 22/11/12 Report this commentAnd then RTE go and let Miriam O’Callaghan do the interview!! Condescending and smarmy as usual. Could this get any worse?? It’s an absolute disgrace the way they’ve ‘handled’ this. Poor bloke…
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Patrick Henry 19/12/12 Report this commentHas anyone heard the update?
There is further evidence of how the tragic death of a pregnant woman in Ireland has been turned into a media hoax by the abortion lobby. Not only did the woman die of an infection that had nothing to do with her pregnancy (and against which an abortion would most certainly not have helped her), but it now turns out that she never made any request for a termination.
Kitty Holland, the reporter of the “Irish Times” who originally broke the story that went around the globe, now has admitted that she had not checked any of the facts. In an interview with the Irish radio programme “Newstalk 106″, Ms. Holland (who happens to be the daughter of a pro-abortion campaigner and a socialist politician) had to admit that her story “may be a little muddled”…
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boildyeggs 22/11/12 Report this commentJelena. Thank you for sharing what is a obviously a very personal story, and for that I can appreciate your suspicions of the medical consultants. I only took exception to your cold blooded remark. I predominantly agree with most of what you say, and off course sympathise with what was obviously a difficult time for you, but that is not to say that all hospital consultants and their staff are wicked and uncaring. Infant mortality rates in Ireland are actually one of the best in the world. That I can only imagine is due to the high level of care given and is not by mistake. Although I am a man, I have been their with my wife for the birth of our son, and fortunately the full pregnancy was without complications. I can say that the midwives were exceptional and my wife was very happy with the maternity hospital.
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Patrick Henry 19/12/12 Report this commentThere is further evidence of how the tragic death of a pregnant woman in Ireland has been turned into a media hoax by the abortion lobby. Not only did the woman die of an infection that had nothing to do with her pregnancy (and against which an abortion would most certainly not have helped her), but it now turns out that she never made any request for a termination.
Kitty Holland, the reporter of the “Irish Times” who originally broke the story that went around the globe, now has admitted that she had not checked any of the facts. In an interview with the Irish radio programme “Newstalk 106″, Ms. Holland (who happens to be the daughter of a pro-abortion campaigner and a socialist politician) had to admit that her story “may be a little muddled”…
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joe traynor 22/11/12 Report this commentThis was a tragic incident and I think there should be an investigation, but before we rush to judgement it’s worth noting that Ireland has one of the lowest maternal death rates in the world,
Half that of the UK which has abortion.
http://www.indexmundi.com/map/?v=2223
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Kerry Blake 22/11/12 Report this commentSavita died in Ireland so what’s your point?
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Joe Traynor 22/11/12 Report this commentHow is this point not clear Kerry, a woman is twice as likely to Die during childbirth in the UK.
Yes we all know This death happened in Ireland , my point is that this is very rare 6 in 100,000 in Ireland.
It is not likely having abortion available in Ireland will make this rate lower as they have a higher rate of deaths in the UK where abortion is available.
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M Bowe 22/11/12 Report this commentTermination and births are completely different. And if the neo natal and post natal care in Ireland is superior to that of UK. Then the thousands forced to travel to Uk each yr for terminations deserve that superior care at home.
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Kerry Blake 22/11/12 Report this commentAgain I ask what’s your point we are talking about someone who died in Ireland allegedly according to her husband because there was a heart beat and so for a non viable foetus or baby if you prefer no termination / abortion was performed and the mother died. I really fail to see what figures or statics from other countries have to do with Ireland. BTW according to the “pro life” people this should not have happened. So why are the objecting to legislation to ensure it never happens again?
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Irene Kavanagh 22/11/12 Report this comment@kerry. Apologies but I ‘thumbs-downed’ your comment when I intended to ‘thumbs up’. Anyway, well said. I would also like to add, there are many women who have come forward to irish media/press in the wake of the savita trajedy recounting the suffering they endured because they were not offered best mecical care in their case-specifically as a result of being refused termination. They do not go down on official records because they did not die- but suffered greatly nonetheless.
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boildyeggs 22/11/12 Report this commentJelena, you make this sound like we have “cold blooded” killers stalking hospital wards looking for expecting mothers to kill. Seriously.
This sounds like some sensationalist rubbish a tabloid would run with.
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Boy Russell 22/11/12 Report this commentTD Daly :-P
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Deepak Naik 26/11/12 Report this commentLaws can also be ammended… If by doing so it can save lives… We should come forward and fight…..
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Deepak Naik 26/11/12 Report this commentLaws can be ammended.. If by doing so we can save lives, then we should definitely comeforward and fight..