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Dublin: 11 °C Sunday 19 May, 2013

Government backbenchers split over possible cuts to private school subsidy

Fine Gael’s Eoghan Murphy wants to keep the €96 million subvention, but Labour’s Robert Dowds insists it must go.

Image: Mark Stedman/Photocall Ireland

BACKBENCHERS in the government parties have split to opposite sides in a dispute over whether the State’s subsidy for private schools should be cut in the next Budget.

Labour junior minister Alan Kelly yesterday said the annual subvention – of about €96 million – was “a luxury rather than a necessity” and would need to be examined as part of the €2.25 billion of spending cuts required in the Budget in two months’ time.

This afternoon his back-bench colleague Robert Dowds came out firmly in support of the proposal – while at the same time Fine Gael’s Eoghan Murphy slammed the move as illogical.

“The fact that there is at least one private school in this country that has its own golf course among other facilities, and that school is being supported by the taxpayer, should open people’s eyes to the level of inequality in our education system,” Dowds said in a statement.

“With the country in such economic difficulty, it simply has to be tackled,” he said.

Dowds, who is himself a member of the Church of Ireland, said there was no need simply to give subventions to schools simply because they might cater to a minority faith – pointing out that there were several public schools in the country which had a Protestant ethos.

“Private schools have the luxury of being able to offer wider course choices, better sports facilities, better academic facilities and an all-round better education for those who are fortunate to be able to afford it,” the Dublin Mid-West TD said.

“It is a two tiered system of education and it is wrong that the taxpayer is supporting this inequality.”

Deferring a greater liability

Fine Gael’s Murphy, however, said cutting the subsidy to those schools would result in the State only facing greater liabilities a few years from now.

“Every year the state pays a subvention fo about €100 million to fee-paying schools,” he said on RTÉ’s Six One. “In return, though, that money is match by parents who send their children to these schools by about €91 million.

“In a way it’s a saving to the state to pay the subsidy in the first place,” he said, arguing that providing education of the standard offered by private schools would cost the State twice as much if parents did not cover almost half of the cost.

“By taking away the subvention from fee-paying schools, we risk a future liability of an addition €91 million – a total of €191m for all future taxpayers to have to bear – and that’s just not smart financing.”

The Dublin South-East TD said he would prefer to cut certain public sector allowances, such as the allowance paid to teachers for yard supervision, before enforcing other educational cuts that would have a wider impact for taxpayers.

“I don’t think it’s fair for any taxpayer, regardless of where they live in the State, that we might increase their taxes while we’re still paying pay increases to teachers, while we’re still paying allowances in the public sector that we shouldn’t be,” Murphy said.

Murphy also argue that it cost the state about €3,500 less to educate a child in a private school than in a public one and that private schools should therefore be seen as a form of financial assistance to the government, and not from it.

Read: Junior minister: State subsidy to fee-paying schools is a luxury

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Comments (75 Comments)

  • Cutting the backbenchers save a lot more and be more productive than having them go up to dublin a few days a week to roar and shout and get nothing done

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  • mike 08/10/12 #

    Correct me if I’m wrong but the last time Labour were in government they were brought down by a budget. I think history is about to repeat itself.

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  • And the same Robert Dowds was in favour of keeping the 3500 euro tax allowance for dry cleaning for TD’s. Get real. If a family save and work hard in order to give their children the best start in life I applaud them, the present government have a policy if divide and conquer.

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  • Orion 08/10/12 #

    wont be able to pay the higher fees that is.

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  • I think the issue for eoghan is that he wouldn’t be opposed in principle if it actually saved money but what’s he’s saying is that while it looks like a saving it would actually cost the state if some of those schools had to be 100% managed by the state on the current side not to mention the capital side which barely receives state funding

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  • Every child gets child benefit regardless of how much money their parents have.
    Every child in this country deserves a state paid teacher.
    Public sector school it’s 19-1 ratio, private sector is 21-1
    I fail to see how parents who pay huge amounts of tax should be further targeted by this.
    The money private schools get from fees goes on extra curricular activities, transport to matches & paying for extra teachers to try & bring the pupil teacher ratio down.

    I work in a private school & while facilities are better, I still have 28 pupils in front of me in most classes.

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    • It’s a question of equality. My solution would be to end to the subsidy to private schools and increase taxes on the wealthy by that amount plus the amount of money rich parents are currently spending on private school fees. This money could then be ring-fenced for improving the public education system and would benefit all children rather than only those of the wealthy.

      This would encourage more parents to send their kids to public schools and improve the general ethos and quality of education in the public system. At the moment in parts of Dublin you have a situation where all the middle class kids are being sent to private schools because the public schools are perceived to be bad or the good ones are oversubscribed. This progressively degrades the quality of public schools and creates an ever more divided two-tier system that is socially regressive and stores up more inequality further down the line.

      We’re already heading towards a system in Ireland where it’s becoming harder to succeed if you don’t go to a private school – for instance the proportion of privately educated people in the Cabinet is massively out of whack with the population as a whole. We don’t want to end up like England where everyone in government went to Eton.

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    • Belly Up 09/10/12 #

      Those parents already pay for that state subsidy in tax and then some. Schools are bad schools because of parents, not because of teachers or funding. Discipline and education start in the home and when that is transferred to the school then the pupils benefit.

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  • How do you work that one Barry .One of my kids goes to one the fee is not that big I’m on a 3 day week for a wile now I saved for years if the price rises il have to take her out it’s a loreto not Harvard

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  • My kids are as entitled to a state subsidised education the same as all others. If I choose a private school for that education why should they lose that state subsidised education that they are entitled to? Parents paying fees actually subsidise the state system. It’s seems equality of rights is only relevant if you are at a disadvantage.

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  • Sorry…would not be able to compensate, the state schools could not cope. Having said all of that, there are loads of excellent non fee paying schools in Ireland, who have excellent students with brilliant results, it’s a personal choice!

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  • if we take away the funding private schools get, can we reduce the parents PRSI contributions to reflect them not needing to pay for public schools then ?

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  • Brian,
    Sick of people assuming that everyone who goes to a private school has money…my kids went to private schools, we’re not rich, we both always worked, average jobs, in fact we NEVER had a ‘foreign’ when they were young and spent our money, after tax, on what we believed was something worthwhile. I have absolutely no regrets and apologise to nobody about how I spent my money. If private schools were to cease. The goverdnt would not

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  • Everyone is entitled to an education and a teacher. Those that spend the extra money on private education are paying for the extra facilities and what not. They pay tax already, are they not entitled to a state teacher to provide their kids an education?

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  • What nonsense is Eoghan Murphy on about? The primary cost of running a school is paying the teachers and the state already does this in these schools. This, despite the fact that their existence is a symbol of an (at least) two tiered educational system and an affront to social inclusion. No school should be supported financially by the state if they effectively operate against social cohesion.

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  • Td’s trying to grab headlines. When the numbers are crunched this will cost money.The state will be fully liable for the cost of educating these students when they go public rather than half and half as it stands.

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  • You’re correct, second level education is a right. But attending a fee-paying school is not a right, it’s a privilege.

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    • A privilege(as in all the benefits/facilities that some people resent) that the parents pay for through the fees. If there were no private schools then the cost to the state would be (at least) the same.

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    • I think before any decision is made, the figures need to be properly explored. I think there’s some scare-mongering by fee-paying schools – along the lines of saying all fee-paying pupils will attend public schools if this happens. But how do the fee-paying schools who don’t receive this subsidy manage?

      The other option is to reduce the subsidy (as opposed to eliminate it entirely). Or add certain criteria which fee-paying schools will have to obey if they wish to continue receiving the subsidy i.e increasing the pupil to teacher ratio or being more accessible to pupils with behavioural problems, from disadvantaged backgrounds etc.

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    • My cousin went to Belvedere and apparently they take 10% of their students from disadvantaged backgrounds. Which sounds like a pretty decent number to me. Not sure about the any other schools.

      I would imagine the the fee paying schools who don’t presently take the subsidy just charge a hell of a lot more money. Private education in the UK is way more expensive than it is here on average.

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    • Yeah I heard the figure for Belvedere. I’d be surprised if every fee-paying school had this percentage though.

      Re the schools charging more, in that case if the subsidy is totally abolished couldn’t fee-paying schools currently receiving the subsidy follow this route in future?

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    • Hi Eoin,

      I made the point in an earlier post that a lot of the people who go these schools are not mega rich and that if they had to pay an extra 3-4k a year per child that they wouldn’t be able to do it. Thus some schools would probably close.

      Some others would probably thrive and lead to an even smaller,, more exclusive set at the top of society.

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  • well Privately educated Eoin Murphy has quite a few fee paying schools in his constituency so we shouldnt be surprised about his opinion…its scaremongering to say that the schools will close or suddenly become a ‘bigger cost / to the state if this goes ahead , sure some parents will move and I understand that but many of the wealthy will pay for the additional ‘exclusivity’ that will survive..

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  • This will shut a lot of privately subsidised schools.

    The effect of wholly publicly funding those students schooling will cost the tax payer a LOT more.

    How stupid is the guy who proposed this?

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  • They can’t seriously think its acceptable to have private school subs of 1m let alone 96m and take home help away from the most vulnerable..

    What sort of morally corrupt animals are they..

    It really is beyond comprehension..

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  • Be getting rid of religion in schools you could get rid of one teacher in large schools, this would save more than 100m

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  • Every Euro that the so-called ‘well off’ middle class pay to subsidise their child go to a private school, has already suffered nearly 55% in tax.

    What’s next; no private health service option?

    The government are doing a good job at persuading the 5% of the population that pay 40% of the tax in this country that they will have a much higher quality of life paying their taxes to a foreign Government and abandoning the State. They might come back in 10 years time with far more wealth and we’ll have an even more polarised society between rich and poor. Or perhaps they’ll just stay away and leave Ireland to become the communist republican Utopia that The Left dreams of, with its own currency and the political dis-unity that The Left continually demonstrates it is capable of.

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  • Don’t give them anything. Kids going to those schools have enough money behind them

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  • I admire parents who want the best outcomes for their kids but
    I want kids from average backgrounds to have the same opportunities,
    if a child from a private school does better in third level that’s great for them and good luck to them,
    but surely this gives them an advantage in life that a poorer child doesn’t get,
    the poorer child then fails to reach their full potential and cannot afford a superior education for their own children and the cycle repeats itself???
    This is clearly unfair??

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    • It seems to me (and I stand to be corrected as I’ve no personal experience of private schools) that though the teacher’s pay is subsidised by the government, teachers in private schools have not the job security those in public schools enjoy and will be fired if their pupils dont’ achieve good grades. In the public schools we’re stuck with some bad teachers and this is why people choose private schools for their children.

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    • Niall, following your argument to it’s natural conclusion, kids shouldn’t be allowed to get extra lessons after school on their parent’s buck. What about educated parents helping their kids with homework compared to kids whose parents can’t read. Should this be stamped out as well?

      You can’t make everybody equal, it’s been tried before and it’s not a good way to do things.

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    • Brian,
      all people are different with various levels of ambition for themselves and their children,
      all I want is that talented ambitious children get a fair crack of the whip,
      being lowborn should not mean that you forever stay low born in a fair and equal democratic republic??
      anyone who values education will encourage their children to do well in life,
      why because of a happy accident of birth should one group of children have such an advantage which is subsidized by everyone??

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    • What exactly do you mean by a fair crack of the whip Niall? It’s very vague. In general terms yes I believe all kids should have a fair go. Which is why we have free first and second level education (let’s leave third level out of it for now).

      Lots of well off people send their kids to the local state school and some people who aren’t so well save for and prioritise their kids education. I personally believe that a child’s educational success is much more heavily influenced by parents attitude to education and work ethic than the schools they go to. (Children of poor immigrant families generally do much better in school then the children of the working/ non-working class poor families. Well that’s true in the states and the UK anyway.

      Are you saying that as a society we shouldn’t encourage people to fully support their children. That these people should discourage their kids because it’s unfair to other kids whose parents aren’t bothered? I’m sorry but I think that’s complete nonsense.

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    • Brian,
      you are twisting my words,
      I never mentioned parents who aren’t bothered( they have my contempt )
      what I’m saying is that its unfair to use the public purse to support children who are hugely advantaged already.

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    • Niall, I’m sorry if you think I’m twisting your words, but I genuinely don’t get what you’re trying to say.

      Let’s take two people.

      One sends their’s kinds to a private school the other sends their kid to a state school then pays for them to do extra classes in 4-5 subjects or whatever. In both cases the cost to the parent is the same.

      Should the second parent be forced to pay for his kids regular daytime classes as well? If not then please explain why.

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    • No that’s not unfair, that’s just life, the whole world over.

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    • Brian,
      a fair solution would be to make ALL schools fee paying and make the fees 90% recoverable from your income tax, this would level the playing field and would exempt those without children from paying for those who have kids, the high earners would get tax relief and the middle people would not be excluded due to unaffordability,
      what do you think?

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    • Niall,

      I think there is an awful lot of merit in what you’re suggesting. Obviously the devil is in the detail, but anything that introduced competition between schools would drastically improve the quality of education in this country.

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    • Brian,
      agreed we have found some common ground,
      goodnight.

      Reply
  • Surprise surprise. Eoghan Murphy, who was privately educated, is against abolishing the subsidy for private schools. It’s disingenuous of him to suggest that this will cost the State more in the long run. Worst case scenario is that the cost of the fees in these schools will go up. I, for one, won’t lose any sleep over such an outcome. Who knew Eoghan Murphy had so much in common with Jackie Healy Rae… He must be very popular around the Ranelagh Parish Pump.

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    • We should be encouraging parents to invest their time and and money into their kids education, not penalising them for doing it!

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    • If these schools close then the tax payer will have to cover the total cost of schooling the kid who go to these schools. The government subsidise every school in the country as it is. If these parents pay fees to up the standard of their kids education what’s the problem

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    • Brian, not sure what you’re getting at. Are you saying parents that don’t send their kids to Private schools are not investing time and money into their education? What justification can you make for subsidising a fee paying school when huge cuts need to made to the education budget? I’d prefer to see the 91 million go to moving a school out of its prefabs into a proper building; to stop the cuts in special needs assistants or to see more autistic education units opening. I have nothing against people that want to send their kids to fee paying schools, but it shouldn’t be at the expense of critical education services that are already under pressure. What Eoghan Murphy is doing is politically self serving and nothing else.

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    • Hi Jamie,

      Personally I’d like to see the Croke park agreement thrown out so that public sector pay in our country wasn’t amongst the highest in Europe while the country is going broke. I find it hilarious how the public sector staff shriek about how tough life is for them while they throw the people joining their ranks to wolves so that they can protect their inflated pay and benefits. I’d also like to see more than one out of 1300 or whatever expenses that the public sector employees are entitled to cut. I’d like to see the senate abolished. Theirs three things for a start, it’s a really cheap argument to say that it’s a choice between this and special needs assistants!?!

      If we want to improve education across the board how about making it a meritocracy whereby crap teachers get fired and good teachers rewarded. Instead of the current situation where it in IMPOSSIBLE for an established teacher to get fired unless the assault a student.

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    • Couldn’t agree more, Brain re cutbacks in public service expenditure. But talking of cheap arguments, bringing in the abolishment of the Seanad to deflect from the substantive issue is pretty weak. The fact remains that the education budget is facing massive cuts. The 100 million Euro that is spent on private schools could be better spent elsewhere in the education system, as I suggested above.

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    • Jamie I wasn’t deflecting from the issue I was listing where savings can be made so that it is not a straight choice between teaching assistance and the subsides.

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  • Punish the parents who save and invest in the education of their kids… And reward those who blow half their pay cheques drinking, smoking and gambling themselves and the other half outfitting their kids in designer clothes and video games…

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  • Belly Up 09/10/12 #

    It’s actually a matter of parents subsidising the state. Every child should get a contribution towards their education from the state. If parents want to add to this then why not. I remember watching the late late show on this and I couldn’t believe how stupid people were when the point just wouldn’t go in to their thick skulls that withdrawing the funding would eventually leave the state with an even higher bill.

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  • Every child in the country has the option of the local national or secondary school. If somebody wants to send their kids to a private school let them pay 100% of the cost. Why should they be subsidised?

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    • That’s rubbish Luca. My local RC is oversubscribed for 2013, my local Gaelscoil is also oversubscribed and local Multi-D has 300 people applying for 30 places. There are no local national school places available to me in Dublin 6 and you can be damn sure other parts of the city are the same. And govt are talking about increasing fees at private schools…..at a net cost to the state!

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  • Ruairi Quinn’s sons went to Blackrock College….

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  • Eh why are they split? Private schools should fund themselves! Why is the taxpayer subsidising rich kids?

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    • All children in Ireland are entitled to a free education, therefore the government pay the wages of teachers in all schools.
      However teachers wages alone do not make up the total running costs of a school, other expenses such as facilities, light, heat, maintenance, administration, security, sports, extra curricular activities etc still need to be paid for. In public schools this bill is picked up by the taxpayer, while in private schools this is covered by the fees paid by the parents.
      The therefore the taxpayer is not subsidising the private schools, it is the parents who are sending their children to private schools are subsidising the education system and savings the exchequer millions each year.

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  • Children are sent to private schools to gain an advantage in exam results and prestige. No bother with that except I shouldn’t have to pay their parents a subsidy for that while my children attend a public school.

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  • This is clearly another argument of corporatism in this country. The private schools should remain 100% private and not accept any state funding. In the true scheme of things maintaining the subsidy is not a right wing policy.

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  • There will always be people with money and people with less. If we continue to take from the haves to create equality and cohesiveness, we will eventually end up with a lot more public schools and nobody left to pay the 24 billion welfare bill each year.

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  • People really have the wrong idea about the ‘semi-private’ schools in Ireland. The fees are not insignificant, and a lot of families make sacrifices to pay the fees, but it is nothing like the elitist systems you see in other countries; we don’t have Eton or Harrow in Ireland. We have a system where middle income families can afford to send their kids to a school with an ethos, or a culture of achievement that they want their kids to benefit from.

    What the government is really doing here, once again, is failing to make any cuts to public sector pay and allowances, and instead trying to push the costs out on to the taxpayer. For very many people, struggling to pay these fees from after tax income, any increase will be a huge burden.

    Labour is trying to punish the ordinary working taxpayer once again, the productive members of the economy who are being hit with every other bill already. It’s shameful. And shameful that deliberate misinformation and divisive tactics are being used to support it.

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    • The issue of public sector pay is a total red herring in this debate. The question of whether to fund these schools predates both the boom and the bust. It is a question of social policy.

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  • A crude but suitable analogy,
    I want a new S class Merc but I want the ordinary taxpayer to contribute the price of a new Toyota corolla as I pay a lot of tax and I deserve a new S class but I’m entitled to the Toyota so I want the value of it even though I wouldn’t be seen dead driving a Toyota??

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    • Second level education (i.e. paying teachers salaries) is a right in this country. Driving a merc or any other car is not a right in this country. So your analogy doesn’t add much to this debate I’m afraid,

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    • The M3 and the R147 both go from Dublin to Kells, one a public road the other private, both paid for with taxpayers money.
      Both provide a way from getting from A to B, but does using the private road exclude its users from benefiting from the public road too.

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    • Whether its fair or unfair isn’t the issue for me … The problem is that it is being presented as a saving when in actual fact it’s a complete false economy

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  • peter 08/10/12 #

    Just so happens Murray went to a private school and he just glossed over this on the news earlier on and also said that wasnt affecting his views. What a condescending ,p+@,!

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  • Ruairi Quinn went to Blackrock College.

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  • Nydon 09/10/12 #

    How about allowing parents to choose any public school they wish to send their kids to (based on published results or location etc) and letting those who can afford private education directly subsidise THAT school to the same tune as they would a private school thereby improving the facilities for all? Am I missing something? ;0)

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  • So we close down a loreto school or two up and down the country

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  • Ones philosophy on education is a key determinant of the outcomes of that system. In my opinion the state should use the educational system to promote social justice and cohesion. Any system effectively working against those ideals should, conversely not be supported. Most of these schools operate on a form of financial apartheid. The parents unspoken and perhaps unacknowledged logic is to educate their kids outside of society, not in it. This divides our society. The values which proponents of this subsidy support, such as Brian, lead to very different types of outcomes for society, as when he says: ‘You can’t make everybody equal. It’s been tried before and it’s not a good way to do things’.

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