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Dublin: 10 °C Thursday 20 June, 2013

Government, public service unions reach deal on extending Croke Park

ICTU says the deal reached means better protections for public servants than across-the-board pay cuts.

Public Expenditure minister Brendan Howlin said he was prepared to legislate for pay cuts if no deal could be reached with public sector unions.
Public Expenditure minister Brendan Howlin said he was prepared to legislate for pay cuts if no deal could be reached with public sector unions.
Image: Sam Boal/Photocall Ireland

Updated, 14:01

THE GOVERNMENT and the trade unions representing most of Ireland’s 292,000 public service workers have concluded the first steps on extending and amending the terms of the Croke Park pay deal.

A proposal for an agreement to cut €1 billion from the public pay bill was finalised just after 11am this morning after a final 13-hour session of talks in Ballsbridge, which followed the withdrawal of four unions from the negotiations last night.

The proposals include pay cuts for higher-earning public workers, a freeze on increments for all staff, extended working hours and cuts to the Sunday premium and overtime rates.

In the education sector, supervision and substitution payments will be eliminated – though sources in teachers’ unions said new entrants to the sector since 2011, who have taken proportionally larger pay cuts than older peers, would be protected from this, either by having the allowance secured or by moderate pay increases.

In exchange, the public service pension levy will be cut slightly; the €15,000 to €20,000 band rate will be cut from 5 per cent to 2.5 per cent.

Public Expenditure minister Brendan Howlin, who joined the talks this morning to help conclude a deal, said he was confident today’s proposals would be “the last ask” made of public servants. He said:

All public sector workers have already made a significant contribution to our economic recovery, however, these further measures are absolutely required to achieve a sustainable payroll cost.

Howlin said he hoped the public unions would acknowledge what he saw as the requirement for the “balanced measures”.

The proposal from the Labour Relations Commission will now go to ICTU’s member unions to be ratified on an individual basis, with a majority of ICTU unions required to ratify the deal before it can take effect.

SIPTU president: Proposals are not a ‘deal’

SIPTU general president Jack O’Connor stressed that the proposals did not form an ‘agreement’, but rather a commonly agreed proposal from the Labour Relations Commission which now needs to be approved by unions and their members.

“Ultimately it’ll come down to individual union members casting vote on a single ballot, one way or another,” O’Connor told RTÉ’s Today with Pat Kenny.

He added that the key question being put to union members would be whether they felt the deal was better than one they might secure after industrial action.

When you recognise that justice has been thrown out the window in this country years ago, when you look at the question as to whether or not you would be likely to do better as a result of a protracted industrial battle [...] the debate will, I would expect, focus in on the strategies of the people who decided that you would do better [by taking industrial action].

Members would “have to weigh up: is this strategy feasible, is it working, is it worth the risk,” he said.

ICTU: ‘Better protections’ than across-the-board pay cuts

Unions said the agreement would bring an end to the “two-tier” public service, where newer entrants to some professions were paid significantly less than those who had entered the system shortly before them.

ICTU, which is the vehicle by which the agreement can be ratified by public workers, said the negotiations had resulted in “better protections for public servants than across-the-board pay cuts” or other unilateral measures the government had threatened.

ICTU officials at the talks said union input helped to blunt the edge of “virtually every element” of the proposals being tabled by the Government.

“We have achieved far more through negotiation than we could have hoped to gain through protests,” ICTU public services committee chairman Shay Cody said in a statement.

It added that Unions had not accepted the plans to cut “so-called ‘higher pay’”, but that their input meant pay rates would only be cut for the highest-paid.

The deal looked to be on the line when four unions – representing doctors, nurses, midwives, and low-paid civil servants, with a total membership of about 64,000 – walked out of the talks last night.

With two Garda bodies having left the talks and psychiatric nurses opting not to participate, the deal reached this morning was struck by unions representing about 70 per cent of the total public workforce of 292,000.

If ratified, the provisions of the deal would take effect on a three-year basis from July 2013. The existing Croke Park Agreement remains in place until June 2014.

Read: Pat Rabbitte: Ministers and TDs should ‘lead by example’ and take paycut

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Comments (218 Comments)

  • This will hit TDs and Government ministers too I take it?

    Reply
  • The garda organisations did not leave the talks they were never in the talks.

    Reply
    • Yes, they are put in a side room and fed info at tea breaks and lunch time.

      AGSI and GRA are not affiliated to ICTU and thus have no voice in the discussion. Wait until EU decides on their claim to affiliate as Trade Unions. Rockin and Rollin then

      Reply
    • B 25/02/13 #

      Well done the unions for negotiating pay cuts for people who are not their members.

      Congrats.

      Well done.

      Every man for himself obviously..no solidarity here.

      Reply
    • Aarum 25/02/13 #

      Confident this will be the last ask of the public sector! me ars@

      Reply
    • @ Filthy pete,

      Correct . their representatives were playing golf in Spain

      Reply
    • All government workers need to be on the same type of wages and retirement plans as the productive sectors.

      Having my income taken from me as taxes, used in order to lobby the government for increases my taxes in order to pay for wages, allowances and retirement plans, is not fair. And to hear some government “workers” shriek in horror as they cruise into retirement on retirement plans is just as bad if not worse. To draw pay/benefits annually for some government workers.

      The government could be brought back down in line with the productive sector. Once we see no disparity in pay and benefits. Presently, you don’t see many quitting government jobs. You see people scrambling to get government jobs (in many cases).

      Reply
    • Today’s Indo again refers,in article on ‘fresh Garda action’ to ‘Union’. GRA & AGSI are mere Associations of members ; forbidden by Law to form,or join,a Trade Union. Members have always been denied the right to Trade Union status.

      Reply
  • The members still have to pass this

    Reply
    • It’s a pretty good stroke by the government though, to try buy the majority with a new deal which only has minor repercussions for them.

      This is divide and conquer – they may succeed in removing the threat of national public sector strikes, putting a majority back in their box until the election. This leaves only the front line workers, who are least willing to strike due to their vocation, and who will draw the most public revulsion if they do.

      Howlin and pals have crunched the political numbers here, you can be sure, and rather than taking on the unions and implementing small cuts across the board, they’ve opted to alienate a minority and take the political hit. In an environment of garda stations closing, cuts to public health services etc, popular opinion won’t stay very long with a striking front line workforce.

      In terms of political science, this is a good move. Morally, it’s deplorable.

      Reply
    • When CP1 and the pension levy expire next year, the 14% cuts and pension levy get abolished, or so that’s what is being claimed. So if effect, this deal amounts to nothing more than a 10% cut. Only in Ireland…

      Reply
    • You really think the pension levy will e gone next year? Get a grip

      Reply
    • Don’t think it will matter that much Rónán, whatever deal the unions go back to their members with won’t pass.

      Reply
    • B 25/02/13 #

      Dear Regonald

      The pension levy that will be abolished at the end of 2014 is not the public service pension levy, it is the levy that takes money directly from private pension funds at 0.6%.

      Gets your facts right.

      Reply
    • Pierce, you seem pretty confident, but CP1 passed reasonably comfortably if I recall correctly.

      When the untouched majority crunch the numbers and look at how this affects them, nothing but short increment freezes of 3-6months for many, they will weigh this up against a blanket pay cut through legislation and say ‘yes, please’.

      The stage is set, and the mainstream media will now help the government by portraying infighting, squabbling and back-stabbing between the public sector workers. The unions are already divided into those who will now table motions with their members, and those outside the process.

      Reply
    • Reginald never let’s the facts get in the way of a swipe it the public sector :)

      Reply
    • be under no illusion pierce. the unions will get this voted in. like last time the 24/7 voted against this and they were screwed over and this time for us its even worse. cuts non stop for me. absolutely disgraceful. its heartbreaking for some of us to be honest.

      Reply
    • I can’t see how this will not be passed, most of the people in the Public Service make average wage money. They can’t take cuts. They will also feel that of you are on 60k a or more year that you are better able to take the pain than others.

      Reply
  • Very interested to see more detail on this.
    Specifically, I’d like to see if there are any protections for new entrants to the public service that would prevent the same kind of abuses which occurred in CP1

    Reply
    • New entrants to the public sector can accept the terms in offer or they can decline the offer and take a job elsewhere. “Protect new entrants”- that’s the problem with Public Servants, they think they’re in some sort of special club removed from the employment realities faced by everyone else.

      Reply
    • There is no protection for the newly qualified. A lot of non-permanent will be out of a job, nuch more than after the first sell-out. Jobs initiatives my hole! We can accept the only thing on offer – emigration.

      Reply
    • You’re hinting at the idea of “entitlement”.

      This comment raises a lot of issues. For example – A Nurse/garda/fire fighter/emt/teacher etc goes into that line of work not to be in the public service but because they want to serve the public.
      That’s why I trained to be a teacher anyway – and while I accept that is not it for 100% of public servants I don’t accept that what you’re offering there is a choice.

      Your statement hints that If I can’t get a job as a teacher I should spit on the free fees I got (paid for by the taxpayer) and take another job? For most of these jobs there is no private sector equivalent- presenting that as a choice is not a choice. So is your suggestion that I work in a bar after taking on the advice that most (like myself) got on being made redundant and upskilling?

      What do you suggest I do next Dillon? Take a job in a bar/restaurant and have to say “no I can’t” if the call comes for me to substitute for a teacher? Not apply for any and every job for which I made the effort to qualify for?

      New entrants have been screwed over – are you in favour of a 2 tier system?

      When people have made the effort over the last, say 7 or so years to get into an area in which there is a reasonable expectation of knowing what their pay and conditions would be like and suddenly the sands shift do you not think there is a valid reason to feel a little cheated on that?

      Let’s shift this from the public versus private debate you seem to want to make this:
      If you were to take an apprenticeship or scholarship type situation from a private company who would put you through a few years of training on little or no money with the suggestion that specific pay and conditions would be the same when you started the work itself – if the pay and conditions changed, regardless of the sector – you would have every right to feel cheated.

      Reply
    • My comment there for Dillon BTW.

      Reply
    • Dillon 25/02/13 #

      @tomy- Nicely argued. But your employer can’t afford a one tier system where everyone gets the same terms. So do you want a two tiered system where some people don’t have to take even further cuts from the income they have been accustomed to and in which new entrants are made fully aware of reduced terms BEFORE they take the job or a one tier system where everyone is on a much reduced wage? By the way, in the company I work for your starting basic was €5,000 higher 5 years ago than it is now because it was harder to get people. Why do civil servants and unions think they should be insulated from the market realities the rest of us face?

      Reply
    • @ Tomy.

      Eat it up. No one else who spends normally 4 years in college has a guarantee that their will be a job at the end of it so why should you. It’s called reality

      Reply
    • Dillon you seem to be under the assumption that there are jobs out there. I actually don’t really have a problem with a two tiered system if I could get more than five hours work in a week.
      Since there has been a freeze on employment for a while, the permanent staff working more hours and a ban coming on substitution and subbing then there is nothing left for those who are looking for work. This will also lose jobs for people who have been non-permanent for the last few years.
      It is defying logic when they talk about reducing the dole queues but they know this. Emigration is sorting out a lot of problems for them now but do they think of the future?
      Not at all, the same attitude as during the boom, just with no money. Lets help my friends now and feck the future!

      Reply
    • Dillon – again, you’re not comparing like with like and have missed a crucial point.
      The crucial point is that people commit to a career before they get to the job application. Going for an IT job now means you can choose to apply for an IT job and have a much broader choice.
      This is not a choice that teachers, firefighters etc get due to the nature of the lack of availability for such jobs in the private sectors.

      Now, as for “your employer can’t afford it”.
      This is a common fallback position for many. It’s a “sure what can you do” position and it’s one that again tries to directly compare chalk (public) with cheese (private).
      I’d like to know how far this goes – If the govt said tomorrow that they can’t afford it and shrugged their shoulders would everyone just accept a halving of frontline services? Would the public accept a doubling or trebling of pupil/teacher ratios? Obviously not. At some point the disparity needs to be recognised.

      With respect of being “insulated from the market” I think you need to remember that the private sector were laughing up their sleeves at the public sector dopes during the celtic tiger. And now the govt and media have very artfully created this wedge.

      The nature of public service is of service. Attacking new entrants (to get back to my original point!) is something that has happened but should not be seen as fair. I think you would acknowledge that it’s not more fair than other solutions. Unfortunately, the other solutions are things that unions don’t like to talk about.

      These solutions are the kind that I think draw a parallel between public and private sectors. There are elements of the private sector where those realities you speak of should (IMO) be learned by the public service.
      To set some background: In general, the private sector reduce their wage bill much more by shedding jobs than by reducing wages. IMO the public sector should be doing the same.

      And those jobs should be an honest look at those at the top of the public service and those who are unproductive throughout.

      And this points directly at where people feel they have been cheated by unions – instead of accepting that there are too-high wages and too many people on those high end wages the unions have decided it is more important to protect jobs than to maintain a fair and equal system.

      I’m very much in favour of those non-performers being ousted to allow savings and space for those who value what public service is supposed to be about. (That said, many PS jobs are hard to quantify – I still can see no real way to measure a teacher for example).

      Reply
    • @John – I don’t EXPECT a job. I don’t believe anyone should.

      After working for close to 13 years before redundancy I appreciate now more than ever where my taxes went then. I have no wish to be using your taxes up while on JSA. Nor do I have any wish to see the taxes used by free fees and grants I have received to go to waste either.
      I continue to look for work as a teacher and wish you well in your work too…. But if the value of what you want to do gets attacked, you defend it.

      Reply
    • Dillon, the public sector had open recruitment meaning anybody could apply. However, many did not apply because incomes were much lower in the public sector than in the private sector…sour grapes as usual, remember you did have a choice! Swipes at the public sector are never ending…

      Reply
    • @maria
      ‘However, many did not apply because incomes were much lower in the public sector than in the private sector’

      What dreamland are you living in. The CSO say that the Public service is between 6 and 19% higher having adjusted for education and the ESRI says the average is 17% higher having adjusted for education. Both these bodies are Public service bodies but you obviously do all your research on Twitter

      Reply
    • John – does your quoted statistics allow for the % of people who have higher educational attainment in the Public sector? Does it account for the spread of those wages throughout the public sector? (i.e. the fact that about 70% of the public sector are within the avg industrial wage)

      Will you be so vocal when/if we finally come out of this mess in supporting pay rises for public sector workers when the private sector rocket off ahead as they did during the boom times?

      Reply
    • @ tomy,

      This is what i said
      ‘The CSO say that the Public service is between 6 and 19% higher having adjusted for education and the ESRI says the average is 17% higher having adjusted for education’
      ‘Having adjusted for education’. The analysis is on a like for like basis. You may not like it but they are the facts and it might help if people boned up on the facts reather than spouting based on feelings
      As for the Private sectot rocketing ahead . Except for building and allied trades it did not happen for the average joe.

      Reply
    • Dillon 25/02/13 #

      Well said, John.

      Reply
    • Somehow a post of mine didn’t go up.

      @John – if your source for these claims are what I think they are then you might want to note that these are a mix of NES & revenue figures mixed between 2009 and 2010.

      There are a few flawed points in the report. But I did notice that while it adjusts for educational attainment on an INDIVIDUAL basis and acknowledges that the public service has a higher level of educational attainment – it does not state that it is adjusting for that fact for wage calculations on a public service wide basis.

      That’s the question I was asking.

      @Dillon – care to address my earlier point?

      Reply
    • @ Tomy

      ‘ There is none so blind as he who will not see’

      Reply
    • HAHA – thanks for the laugh John…

      Going from this: it might help if people boned up on the facts reather than spouting based on feelings

      and quoting obviously out of date data to just shaking your head and disengaging because you have nothing you can say.

      I don’t mean to sound like I’m attacking you there – but come on – debate the point rather than walking away.

      Reply
    • Dillon 25/02/13 #

      Tomy- I won’t lie to you. It was too long to read. What can I say. I’m from the MTV generation. Short attention span.

      Reply
    • Dillon 25/02/13 #

      Tomy- having read your version of War & Peace: 1). There’s no difference between embarking on a degree in say, civil engineering than teaching- if the building trade goes bang by the time you qualify, you’re screwed. Why should teaching be different. When you start studying teaching you should know your income and prospects will be dependant on the performance of Ireland plc. It’s the same the world over. Civil Servants striked to get benchmarking in the good times. This is the reverse. 2). “Employer can’t afford”, well it’s a fact. It’s not a Government decision. They’re not bluffing. They’re not sending the money elsewhere. This much we know. As to what the general populace can accept, I’m sure you’re right about a tripling in pupil to teacher ratios. You might agree with me that most people won’t be taking to the streets over 1.75 overtime instead of double time. 3). The private sector wasn’t laughing at the public sector during the Celtic Ponzi scheme because there was no disparity in wages and with benchmarking the public sector got money for old rope thanks to FF vote buying. 4). Good luck with your plans to fire public servants. Getting them to give back their day off to celebrate the coronation of a British Monarch was hard enough. Phew…

      Reply
    • @tomy just go and read the reports and them engage in debate
      How can you do that if you don’t even bother
      Yeah the data is out of date
      The Esri report was published last week
      I despair!

      Reply
    • @John – I have read the reports – and the ESRI one you are referring to is exactly the one which depends on 4 year old data.

      It’s because I’ve read the reports that I can see clearly that they are flawed.

      Your response of “go and read what you have already read” in an effort to present yourself as someone who knows better in no way discusses the point. So what IS your point? Are you going to attempt to support reports which are not indicative of the current situation? Try countering the point….

      Reply
  • This didn’t go far enough to protect the lower earners and hit the higher earners more. Those like gardai nurses firefighters prison officers etc who rely on allowances as part of core pay will be disproportionately be hit again. We’re getting rode its all about fairness not everyone took an equal hit and now the government will reap what they have sewn. Prepare for a prolonged campaign of action.

    Reply
    • Please, be careful in what you say… Mule!

      The other 5 unions are not part of these negotiations!

      Has nothing to with us without legislation.

      I believe that was a red flag and SIPTU fell for it!

      200,000 members in these unions… That’s thier 1 million!

      24/7 alliance contracts are good til 2014…

      SIPTU sold the farm and the chickens!

      But we still own our land!

      Again.. A storm is coming

      Reply
    • I’m just furious out household has two 24/7 members so we take a double hit every time. I just want to do something more than not using our phones or cars I want action. I just feel so powerless

      Reply
    • I just took a look at a Garda Sgts payslip. Sunday @1.75 down by €96 a month. Twilight pay loss of €46.50 a month. Total loss €142.50 a month/€36 a week. 4% paycut.

      Reply
    • totally agree with you mule. we’re getting rode senseless again and again the 9-5ers in there nice offices away from any danger will out vote us again. at least ur union made a stand. ours are a bunch of crooked cowards who will tell us this is the best we can get. we’ll vote no and it will be passed anyway. at least start by getting rid of the pension levy on our additional hours. we’re paying a pension levy on hours that arent even pensionable for christ sake. how irish is that????? its time to show this country exactly what we can do to bring it to a standstill. blu flu screw flu and every other flu going. we need to stand together. NOW!!!

      Reply
    • Without the vaseline!!

      Reply
  • Crime really does pay!!!
    Time to down tools!!
    Where do I go for the free house and welfare entitlements?

    Reply
  • D. Ryan 25/02/13 #

    Do I have this right? My salary will be subject to the increment freezes like everyone else. I already do a forty hour week unlike those who do anywhere between 35-39. But because I’m subject to unsocial and anti family working hours, I’m going to much harder.

    Am I missing something here?? I thought they said it was going to be fair??

    #confused

    Reply
  • Lets not forget Budget 14 will come looking for cash too !!

    Reply
  • no deal till the result is out of the ballot boxes.be interesting to see how it goes .on another note anyone know how it effects union members in unions who pulled out of the talks??

    Reply
    • The staff who are members of unions who did not sign this agreement will not be covered by this deal. If the government wants to implement these terms upon those staff then they will need to bring it in through legislation. This could almost certainly see strikes. Also important to remember it isn’t set in stone until members of unions who agreed to this need to vote on it.

      Reply
  • I believe SIPTU sold out it’s members but how bad? What happens in 2016????? for SIPTU members… Hmmm– If that’s what they wanted,, hope they set it stone til 2020! For the other 5 unions well that’s another story!

    A storm is coming..baton down the hatches!

    Reply
  • finally the top end get a slice of the pie.i believe 65,000 is a good starting point and a fair one. and i believe that the people earning 185 plus can well afford it..

    Reply
  • I personally think the unions and the Government are going to be in a state of shock after the Ballots…. I’m voting NO

    Reply
  • What are the ministers losing are they having their expenses looked at? Are they having to pay home tax? Are they having to go to bed hungry? Not a chance. They will ensure they are protected from all this. They will escape the taxes and gain money hand over fist, all the while punishing those of us that keep the country going and the banks in existence. All the while we the people are getting thrown out of our homes because we cannot make payments to the banks, and why is that, all our money is paid to the banks and bond holders already.

    Reply
  • Leaking the high end cuts to pacify the fools! They tore up CP1 and this won’t last either. Plus it’s clear to all chess players out there that governments next move in 2016 must be anticipated as when CP3,4,5… get introduced or imposed as appears to be the case, not to mention the budgets in the interim. SIPTU have sold out their members and the workers going to the ballot boxes will have their say. Howlin is a coward hiding in Dublin from the people of Wexford who voted for him. May he die from the shame of this latest and cruelest reaping. If it is allowed to go unopposed then it will open the floodgates for the pecking clean of the bones of the Irish people. There are many who choose never to work…least we forget, nanny state that this is. Public sector workers deserve more than this. I am ashamed to be Irish when I see how we’re treated by our own ‘leaders’ while we’re laughed at by the rest of Europe.

    Reply
  • Scarr 25/02/13 #

    It’s a ‘no’ from me ted.

    Reply
    • I wonder now that mr o Connor has negotiated a pay decrease for his hard pressed members will he apply a pro rata reduction in their weekly union fees???

      Not a chance, needs the fees to feather his own nest!

      Reply
  • Spin doctors have been out of the blocks quickly selling the hit the top earner’s side wait for the rest double time gone freeze on increments and premium reductions O Connor on RTE straight away saying protracted strikes would achieve no better talk about beaten before you start members choice now let the games begin

    Reply
  • just curious as to when the social welfare recipients are having their talks, to increase working hours cutpay etc ?? There really is no incentive to work anymore.

    Reply
    • Really no incentive to work, then go on social welfare and allow the people on welfare the chance to work. I finished college in may last year and would do anything for a job in my area and I can’t get one. I am sick of people thinking that social welfare is grate. When you apply for job after job and here noting, or here that you do not have the required experience and this is going on for months or years for some people, see how this would effect you and them come back to me and tell me life on the dole is grate. I was still I school when Ireland was in the Celtic tiger so I did not add any thing to all of people’s bad borrowing or how much debt the country am individuals borrowed but it has seriously effected me and other people my age.

      Reply
    • I don’t think its great, it is a huge cost to the state and this needs to be looked at. How does the nurse feel when someone who she/he treats is on a medical card, getting their €20 a week house, cash to get them through the week for not contributing anything back. How do they feel when their disposable income isn’t that different when you take away, mortgage, health ins etc etc etc.
      I know that people want to work, I know that some people want to better themselves and begin gainful employment. but have a thought for the ones working their arse off to see some sponger drive by in a newish vw. I
      It seems every avenue to cut cost should be explored. No offense intended.

      Reply
    • You do realise there are people who are on social welfare who own a house and are trying to make mortgage repayments too (people who were working and lost there houses). I am not one of them, but neither am I one of them who is receiving rent supplements. and I very much doubt that you have only 134 euro after your mortgage and that you are trying to buy food, pay bills, and live off of 134 euro a week, because that is all of the social welfare I receive.

      At the end of your comment you say no offence intended, yet you are calling people who are on social welfare spongers, and do not contribute any thing back. Such a judgemental attitude you have about people who are on social welfare. I give back to my community it may not be in paid employment (because I can not get employment), but I do volunteer for youth groups, and other community projects. So I so give back, and if employed I will ot give up volunteering.

      Reply
    • People do sponge off the state, people do take and not contribute, I also commented on those who wish to work and gain employment. The comment was well balanced. I did not make a sweeping statement and say ALL.
      I am clearly saying that it needs to be addressed. That it is not fair for a nurse to work morning noon and night and be on a par with someone who doesn’t.

      I can guarantee you that public service workers do have less than €134 a week to live off. any public sector worker getting less than that gimi some green thumbs as a vote

      Reply
    • Neasa. At least you and many others like you are trying to find work. But what I have a problem with is those people that have no interest in finding a job. Those that were and still are claiming the dole during the Celtic Tiger times when Jobs were plentiful. A prisoner told a collegue of mine a few weeks ago that after he had been given temporary release for a back to work scheme that the reason he was back in prison was “I tried that work shit for 2 weeks. What a load of bol##x. F##k that. Get as much on the dole.”
      Then there are those that are milking/defrauding the Social Welfare system for everything they can get.
      These are the ones that I have a problem with. Take Junkies. They are classed as disabled and are not required to look for work. Why should I and every other tax payer pay for some filthy junkey? Billions could be easily cut from the Social Welfare bill without affecting geniune recipients. But the Government are to scared to touch it. For the Government it has and always will be easier to spin cuts to public sector workers than face down noisy and very vocal lefties.

      Reply
    • Mick I totally agree with you that there is a big issue with people who had been on social welfare when there were plenty of jobs in the country, but I also believe there is big issues in the public sector where you have individuals who are in permanent jobs who are not good at those jobs and they still keep there job, and the same where you have an area of public sector jobs where they are no longer required for that job, and instead of being let go they are kept on not doing anything. This is common place in areas such as the dept of agriculture where you have more numbers of agri advisers per farmers, than you do gaurds per population and all because they will not let any of them go after particular programs shut down. So I do agree with you the social welfare system does need to be examined but so does the public sector.

      Reply
    • Agreed Neasa. There are people in the Public Service that are lazy and incompetent. But the majority of public servants are honest hard working people. But in the frontline services those that are lazy and incompetent don’t last in the Jobs very long. Speaking from my own experience these people are as likey to get me or my collegues injured or even killed. So we have very little tolerance for them. And most of these cuts are going to affect those of us in the frontline disproportionately. The big unions are looking after their members that are 8-5. What do they care about those of us that work nights, weekends and bankholidays. They get them off any way. There is nothing to stop the Government introducing legislation to make it easier to remove those that are lazy and or incompetent. But this deal has nothing to do with that. Its about taking the easy route rather the much more Politically sensitive one of Social Welfare reform.

      Reply
    • Neasa improve your spelling and you might get a job!!!

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    • So Maria, you must agree with every thing I said, seeing as the only thing you can complain about is my spelling. I’m sorry about my spelling, auto correct on my phone keeps changing things on me. But a little advise for you, you should try not make comments like that with out knowing the individual, seeing as you don’t know if I have dyslexia or something else which may impact on my ability to spell. May be there is something you disagreed with in my post but at least have the guts to make a valid comment to me. Or do you believe that all unemployed people are unemployed because they can’t spell.

      Reply
    • Julie 25/02/13 #

      Well said Neasa, I am in the same situation, finished college in may and on job seekers managed to get a job working in a bar part time. You made some great points there. Would just like to point out there was only 3% of the working population on welfare during the boom. Anyone with a family or mortgage is entitled to:
      188 a week which is drastically reduced if your spouse is unemployed also. They are entitled to fuel allowance only a few weeks of the year of 20 euro. That is it.
      Their are other benefits available but qualifying for them benefits is next to near impossible.

      Should ye not be angrier about yer taxes going to, private investors, toxic illegal banks that don’t even have licenses, Bertie and the likes pension, incompetent politicians and advisors.

      Yes fraud has to be dealt with in relation to social welfare, but stop making out like social welfare is a gravy train it is hard just like it is for low paid worked who keep getting cut and taxed.

      I live in a small town, I see the life time recipients, they make me angry just as much as you but I am sick of being put in the same category as them.

      Both my parents worked all their lives mom lost her job because her company couldn’t afford the hike in energy cost. The employees did everything they could to get the government to do something. 100s lost their jobs. My parents and the other 11% unemployed do not deserve to be called spongers, or as I was called recently a handout orientated ass.

      Reply
    • Marie: I dont agree with every thing Nessa said but you have really shown how ignorant you are. At least her and the other two people could have a discussion on the topic, and shown some intelligence, you have shown your lack of intelligence ad your inability to add anything of meaning to the topic. Hope you don’t work in the front line of the public sector cause I would feel sorry for the people you work with and the individuals you are meant to be caring/protecting.

      Reply
  • It’s a good deal if you don’t work Sunday’s or after 6pm. Is there cuts for anybody who works outside these hours?

    Reply
    • Frontline workers getting rode again.

      Reply
    • How?

      Reply
    • B 25/02/13 #

      Alan Burke

      How? Well if you are a teacher or 9-5 clerical worker what do you care if your union agrees to cut Saturday Pay, Sunday Pay and Night Hours pay?

      But if you actually work Saturdays Sundays and Nights you do care.

      Reply
    • I work permanent night duty and 3 out of 4 Sundays a month….this is going to hit me very hard

      Reply
    • With respect if you have come to rely on overtime payments that is your problem and not your employer’s.

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    • With respect Alan as I said I work permanent night duty and work 3 out of 4 Sundays, this is not overtime this is my core pay

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    • It’s not overtime, it’s part of core pay that we have to work every month. If it was optional do you think anyone would be away from their family on Christmas Day? Clown

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    • B 25/02/13 #

      Alan seem to be a bit slow

      Reply
    • Your core pay is salary x 1. Double time is a bonus that you should not rely on

      Reply
    • Well then I will just ask for my duty roster to b changed. I will tell them Alan said working Sundays and nights is overtime

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    • You haven’t a clue Alan… How is it a bonus when Sunday/nite work is mandatory for the frontline? I’d rather have my time off than go in at these times, but I don’t have a choice so I should be remunerated properly as a result.

      Reply
    • … And Alan, as you follow Gerry Adams on twitter, well, we know where your coming from…

      Reply
    • You’re some Dope Alan!! How the hell is providing a public frontline service on a Sunday night and expecting a fair and reasonable pay for doing so counted as a BONUS!! When you’re sat on your lazy arse after a hectic weekend partying or lazy one in bed there are people out there working serving their communities! Obviously something you wouldn’t have the stones to do!!

      Reply
    • ur an idiot alan. and like alot of people ill informed idiot. my salary is 49k. after 13yrs and a promotion i worked hard for. i work a roster…no choice in that. and annualised hours….no choice in that. twilight hours, sundays and nights are all part of my roster. so look at it this way. with all the allowances i get for the abouve it brings my salary above 65k. 5.5% gone straight away. twilight paymets cut, sunday allowance cut, overtime/annualised hours cut. and i’m on my long service increment. yes after 13yrs thats it for 17 more yrs at least. if i didnt get promoted to would have stopped at 11. and another thing? how much do you actually think an increment is worth. my long service increment is worth exactly 47 euro a fortnight. this has done nothing but victimise the frontline services and yet again the ones it affects the least, the mon-fri 9-5s will vote this in.

      Reply
    • 49k salary plus overtime and bonuses???? What is the problem then? That is a small fortune to any “frontline” private sector employees. We still have the same mortgages, rent and bills to pay. It seems you’re fairly well off compared to most of the country

      Reply
    • fairly well off??? get a grip. try seeing ur 14month old little girl on a thursday and not getting to see her again til monday. its heartbreaking. and now whats more im getting unfairly penalized for that pleasure aswell. at least a decent wage would help.
      and not being the whipping boy for the government.

      Reply
    • If you’re not happy with your working conditions then change jobs. Jaysus I’d love to be getting 47k base salary with healthcare and pension etc. Welcome to the real world.

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    • What Healthcare are you on about Alan!?!

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    • Alan, low paid working shift are taking a pay cut,
      Low pain not working shift are not
      It’s an attack on one group , try to understand the reality of this agreement for frontline staff

      Reply
    • Hi Shay – are the shift workers having their basic pay affected at all or just overtime payments? It would seem this is bringing them in line with 9-5 workers who cannot benefit from the same overtime. Complaining about having to do shift work is futile as surely they knew the nature of their job/vocation before applying. I do feel that they should have some level of overtime for night shifts, xmas day etc but certainly not double time – time + 3/4 sounds like a fair compromise.And the twilight pay is a farce that should never have been in place to begin with.

      Reply
    • Alan, healthcare, nurses pay for GP and consultant fees like everyone else, there is no special treatment for public service staff
      This deal protects the civil service and attacks the public service

      Reply
    • That’s a pretty good way of putting it Shay – never thought of it like that. Thanks for being the only person on here willing to debate and actually reply to my queries. Much appreciated.

      If the 9-5 Civil Servants took a proportionate pay cut also would you be in favour of the deal as presented?

      Reply
    • Alan , pay cuts effect premium pay
      Premium pay is based on the basic your paid,
      That is percentage pay cuts reduced premium pay accordingly,
      So in effect reductions to basic pay for all, reduce the take home pay for all equally
      Personally I feel we have taken cuts already and enough is enough, but if there going to happen, they should be fair
      During the boom , benching marking gave bigger pay cuts to those at the top , so it’s reasonable that they take bigger pay cuts now, percentage wise

      Reply
    • 65k and you are moaning !!

      Reply
    • Paul if you earn 20.000 and work shift , you are getting a pay cut, only 9-5 workers are protected,

      Reply
  • Hope Unions do not fold on increase in hours. If they do, they are essentially agreeing to a paycut across the board and not from the “Populist” €65k upwards.

    More hours for the same money = pay cut for all.

    Reply
  • I see it didn’t take Jack O’Connor long to get out of the blocks to start threatening his own members on Pat Kenny. He starts by saying he is not aware of the full details of the proposal but then immediately says that union members will have to consider whether they will get anything better by engaging in industrial action when they vote on this proposal. Shame on him.

    Trade union members should realise that their so called leaders have no interest in protecting them in any way. They are solely out to protect their own comforts and high earnings. They won’t be taking any pay cuts.

    Where else would you see it happen, that the leader of ICTU sit on the board of a semi state company, Aer Lingus, that proposes continuous cut backs to employees earnings and pensions. This when he’s not attending board meetings of “The Irish Times”.

    Maybe Jack O’Connor should be worried that what his members and members of other unions will consider when voting on this proposal is whether their so called leaders have sold them out and whether they are fit to represent them going forward. Methinks there would be a resounding “NO”.

    Reply
  • How thick are they? They are just pushing more people in the insolvency door .and cost more .

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  • Jesus wept…. We have been sold out by the others, most of whom work Monday to Friday 9-5 (or less). Meanwhile us fools who leave our children and families behind to work Christmas, bank holidays, weekends, night duty and every other special occasion and unsocial hour will be hit the hardest. I cannot see how, for example: the vast majority of teachers, will be losing out via this agreement. How is it fair or equal when its clearly prejudiced against those who work in frontline services. Absolutely sickening.

    Reply
    • Aoife, the union leaders have to bring these proposals (and thats all they are) back to the membership of their respective unions. Judging by the reactions I’ve heard today it is certainly not a done deal by any stretch of the imagination. Most are of the opinion that there should be no CP2 if these proposals are being taken seriously.

      Reply
  • another payment for the unions bosses , pity their members . at least 4 unions had the backbone to walk .

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  • Ah shower of sellout union ba##a##s. Go back and face your members.this is far from over .Vote No. #frontlinealliance

    Reply
  • I am waiting to see the fine print!

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  • Red Ed 25/02/13 #

    These cuts along with property tax and water tax is enough to slowly push me over the edge. I’ve served this country and the people long enough to at least be afforded a reasonable standard of living. I guess they want me to emigrate using the skills I have learned here and someone else will pay my mortgage. I am fed up with the everyone for themselves attitude that the government are using to divide and conquer. Whatever happened to the fighting Irish?

    Reply
  • Cut the top first, The greedy politicians huge salaries and pensions.

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  • Bring on the next general election and we will get rid of these muppets then

    Reply
  • Jason 25/02/13 #

    Fairly apt that jack o Connor is sitting on rte news wearing his red Labour Party tie. Bit of a slip up there Jack. He’s not very convincing trying to explain how the shift worker won’t be more affected than the non shift worker. Sell out

    Reply
  • Emergency services shafted whilst the likes of teachers who work 5 or 6 hours a day and get 14 to 18 weeks holidays a year are laughing. Make them increase their working week

    Reply
    • You are correct Christy. And I say that as a teacher. I can’t see any effect on me at all although I’m sure there will be a couple of extra hours a week. So what. In comparison to guards and nurses we are getting away with it again!

      Reply
    • Your buying into government propaganda christy by turning on your fellow public sector worker. Concentrate on the proposed cuts to your sector. This ‘what about him’ attitude is childish and achieves nothing.

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    • Jason is right, Christy. This is exactly the response the government wants. They want you and your representatives on the air complaining about those who didn’t get cut, driving them to vote for this deal and protect their status quo.

      Those getting shafted need to concentrate on providing clear and concise information about the impact to them, to swell broader public sector opinion in their favour and reject the deal.

      As it stands, it’s a good deal for teachers (and why wouldn’t it be when half the Dáil are teachers). I know plenty of teachers, and they hear the anti-teacher stuff every day. The teacher unions have always done their own thing outside the general public sector consensus, and attacking them is playing into government hands. They are your voting public, not your enemy.

      Reply
    • It’s a good deal for teachers but the newly qualified are fcuked. Who cares though?

      Reply
    • Teachers work a bit more than a few hours a day.. Their work doesn’t end when the kids go home you know..

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  • Just getting more details on this, its a bad deal for the lowest paid clerical workers. Their hours is being increased by what amounts to a 6% cut to their hourly rate. No wonder the CPSU walked out.

    No to mention the inconvenient fact that the government is breaking CP1 by not letting it run its course as agreed.

    Reply
    • Wiseman 25/02/13 #

      Only true if you get paid by the hour – skewed logic if you are on Salary

      Reply
    • Very litle mention if the IMF on here or in any of the news articles. People seem to forget that they and the EU will be the ones lending the money and will have the ultimate say. See the statement today by Oli Rhein regarding not rowing back on Fiscal reform. In an ideal world we would have the money but the unions need to realise who they are ultimately negotiating with and adjust expectations accordingly.

      Reply
  • Lower paid office worker protected, those doing shifts hit even if low paid,
    Big shots take soft cuts to maintain their cushy jobs,
    No proper reform of the public service, good deal for jack , and most of his members,

    Reply
  • Seems like a pretty bad deal, im voting NO and im sure the majority of public sector workers will too.

    Reply
  • Bondholders get paid workers get laid great country

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  • Have to say, if they’re hitting the highest earners in favour of protecting those on average salaries and lower paid, I’m reluctantly in favour of that. This looks good.

    Reply
    • Think ill be voting yes based in above article. Will need more detail though.

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    • They’re not really going after high earners with any significant push. 5% cut on anything over 65,000 and 10% on anything over 185,000 is not going to result in a sizeable cut at all.

      Reply
    • Are allowances counted in the 65k? Or just the base salary scale? How many people earning over 65k actually have many increments left?

      As Jason says, 5% off everything over 65k isn’t much:
      - 500 euro pay cut for someone on 75k, down to 74.5k
      - 1k pay cut for someone on 85k, down to 84k
      - 1.5k pay cut for someone on 95k, down to 93.5k
      - 2k pay cut for someone on 105k, down to 103k
      - 2.5k pay cut for someone on 115k, down to 112.5k

      - 6k pay cut for someone on 185k, down to 179k
      - 7k pay cut for someone on 195k …

      The top cut I’ve shown there is 7k from 195k, about 3.5% paycut. Don’t buy the 5%, 10% headline figures. They’re a sop to the masses, to stick a popular line in the agreement, which actually amounts to fook all.

      Meanwhile, front line workers will probably see the same 6-7k paycut, if not more, as the guy on 195k (when the dust settles on their premium payments and overtime)

      Reply
    • B 25/02/13 #

      Example a Garda Superintendent on 85K plus will loose about €4000 before tax, and as he/she does not work nights, Saturdays or Sundays they will suffer no further cut in pay.

      A Garda on 40K will loose somewhere between €2500 and €3500 before tax (approx and depending on amount of night duty, Saturday and Sundays worked) on their normal salary. If they are lucky enough to get overtime then that will be cut too.

      Very Fair.

      Reply
    • Dillon 25/02/13 #

      Ronan / Jason- of course you would have no problem with 5% being taken off your pay packet? Where should we send the invoice?

      Reply
    • Dillon, while my figures above are out of date with the latest info, it shows that someone needs to be earning in excess for 200k for the cuts to amount to an actual 5%.

      I wouldn’t like a pay cut of any amount, as it happens, but luckily for me, I don’t work in the public sector so my salary is decided based on my productivity rather than negotiations between TDs and the beards. This means if I work hard I will generally get salary increases and if I don’t, I won’t.

      I respect that cuts are unwelcome no matter what your salary level, my point is that lower paid public sector workers, barely touched by this deal, shouldn’t see headline rates of 10% cuts for the well paid as a reason to righteously accept an agreement that fails the frontline workers.

      My comments above aren’t baying for the blood of higher paid public sector workers, I’m suggesting that people who advocate such cuts shouldn’t be sucked in by the headline numbers which won’t contribute much to the 1billion – most will be taken from those being really targetted.

      Reply
    • @Rónán – reading the above it does sound more like a 5% pay cut for those on a 65k salary (or 10% on 185k) rather than a 5% tax on everything over 65k as you’ve outlined above.

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    • Dillon 25/02/13 #

      @ronan- I stand corrected so.

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    • There’s a relatively small number if high earners. The bulk of the savings, despite all the moral outrage was always going to come from where the highest volume of employees are – middle to low paid…

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    • Ronan’s numbers are based on an incorrect interpretation.

      “Separately, the Government will reduce the pay of those over €65k progressively as follows:
      o 5.5% on the first €80,000 of salary and allowances
      o 8% between €80,000 and €150,000
      o 9% between €150,000 and €185,000
      o 10% above €185,000 ”

      Eg it’s not a marginal rate over 65k, but rather the 5.5% will be based on the entire 65k. In the case of an 80,000eur earner, this means they will be getting a 5.5% cut, or 4,400 eur. In the case of a €185k earner, they will be getting a cut of 18,500eur. And yes, these figures will include Government TDs and Ministers. Seems progressive to me.

      Reply
    • @Noel, that has changed from the earlier article, which only said 5% over 65k and 10% over 185k, and was implied as marginal in the original text.

      I stand corrected.

      Reply
  • censored 25/02/13 #

    How much of a “pay cut” is Jack O’Connor taking?

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  • @ Alan Burke.
    Alan, are only commenting here to stir the pot?? The downright ignorance of some of your comments don’t warrant a response.

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  • This is insane… Never supporting INTO as long as I HAVE to be part of this crap… Anyone interested in making some noise join SEAS page on FB… Honestly I’m so annoyed its beyond belief

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  • All this protecting the lower paid stuff is complete rubbish, if you are lower paid and you work 37hours they are going to make you work an extra two hours a week for nothing, if you are lower paid and forced to work overtime they are going to cut your overtime. So the cut to those over €60,000 euro are just a smoke screen design to get cuts through to those on lower pay.

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  • I read most of the comments on most of the articles. DILLON you must never leave your bedroom, i would have to think you spend most of your waking hours trying to be really annoying. If there was an allowance for it you my friend would be very very wealthy.

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  • I can see this deal being rejected by the members of the teaching unions who seem to lose most !

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  • Alot of commentary around strikes and voting no on the deal – no information what other options were there – the unions would not allow any compulsory lay offs – so no chance to get rid of highly paid folks doing little or nothing – apart from wages everything is cut to the bone ? Where else could they cut – and please no rubbish about the banks – that ship has sailed – PS throwing out FG/lab would just put ff back in – same same

    Reply
  • How many public sector are on 185k +?

    150k+ would have seemed a fairer level to set the upper tier. But maybe senior pay is even better than we thought.

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  • The government are waging an economic war on their own citizens. Public sector pay cuts, USC hikes, pension levies, Home taxes, Water taxes and assorted cutbacks to our social support structures are some of the means by which we will be made to pay for the gambling losses of financial speculation.

    People understandably are reluctant to believe this but the evidence cannot be denied. On one side, Noonan demonstrates his contempt for our democratic and legal systems and bulldozes through a midnight emergency Bill, voted on by a Dail full of TDs most of whom did not bother or did not have a chance to examine the legislation. This eliminated the promissory notes which were subject to a challenge in the Supreme court and converted that illegitimate debt into government bonds, welding banking debt to the Irish people for 40 years. Noonan couldn’t contain his self satisfaction with this stunt and has since admitted the promissory notes were illegal. FG and Labour will allow nothing to stand in their way as they ensure the odious banking debt is paid in full by the Irish people.
    In parallel, the Revenue is granted extraordinary draconian powers to try and ensure that the Home tax is extracted from a population who are finally beginning to understand the horrible truth of their government’s betrayal.

    A government truly acting in the interests of the Irish people would have allowed the legal challenge to the promissory notes to run its course. When the notes were declared illegal by the Supreme court, they simply had to abide by that judgement in order to remove €47 billion of illegitimate private banking debt from our backs.

    We must stand together now as Irish citizens and refuse to be governed in this manner. Do not allow ourselves to be divided between public and private sector. We are ruled by consent in a democracy and so any government can be removed at any time if a large enough body of the citizens withdraw this consent. Widespread and prolonged industrial action is required from across the Union spectrum . This must be initiated by the grass roots as the leadership are mostly bought and paid for by the establishment and complicit in the betrayal of the Irish people.
    Another path open to us is mass peaceful civil disobedience. The process started last year when 700,000 Irish people refused to pay the unjust Household tax. The protest will continue this year with a mass boycott of the Property (Home) Tax.
    This is real time democracy in action where the consequences of bailing out international financial speculators at the expense of the Irish people is brought home immediately to our elected representatives. We can’t afford to wait until the next general election to make FG and Labour pay for betraying the Irish people.

    Reply
  • What’s the point of having these meeting with the unions if Howlin can just turn around & like a little kid having a tantrum say that he will just legislate to make the changes to the croke park deal ! What a liar ! Give up some of your salary & get in touch with people in the real world instead of sitting on your Arse in your comfy warm seat!

    Reply
  • This sounds sensible. Buggering up the country with strikes when – leaving the unfair bank debt out of it – we’re broke, is in nobody’s interest, least of all the public service workers.

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    • Public service worker here and I DO NOT ACCEPT this im on too tight a budget in not accepting any cut. If anything we have been cut bit by bit for years wwoth rising inflation we should be arguing for a rise not a drop.

      Reply
    • You don’t, the reality is strike, weight it up carefully, remember Jack isn’t behind a strike and that means it will have to be member led

      Reply
    • Dillon 25/02/13 #

      @youdont- well then leave the public sector and take a job elsewhere. It’s a free country.

      Reply
    • Dillon members don’t have to accept this deal, stupid statement from you

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    • Let no public service worker come on here moaning about the fact, that they have to pay their overinflated Celtic Tiger Ponzi Scheme Mortgage or the Seanie Fitz property tax.
      Because out here in the private sector
      If you can’t afford to pay your mortgage.
      Then you just can’t afford to pay your mortgage.
      and
      If you can’t afford to pay the Seanie Fitz property tax
      Then you just can’t pay the Seanie Fitz property tax.

      Public service wages cannot be justified on the basis of having to pay Mortgages to Criminals in the banking world.

      Reply
    • Grow a Pair and Sort out the banks Howlin!

      Write down the fraudulent overinflated mortgages that they dished out to create the false boom!!

      And things will sort themselves out.

      How many billions of the public service wage bill is going directly to pay Ponzi overinflated Mortgages to Ponzi Criminal (national and foreign) Bank’s Howlin??
      How many Billions Howlin??

      Reply
    • How many Hundreds of Millions/Billions of the Public Sector wage bill is going directly to pay the (Seanie Fitz/Fingers gambling debt) “Property” Tax and Water Charges Etc????

      It would be interesting to see if
      the people standing up to criminal banks/government and their criminal taxes/debts for the last 5 years
      are in the private sector or in the public sector???

      Because some people have been feeling this pain since 2007!!!!

      In the private sector you’d be lucky to have a union!!

      Reply
  • Sounds like a reasonable deal – over 65k gets cut, freeze of pay rises – not sure what all the union fuss was about

    Reply
    • Well first, you’re not getting the whole detail here.
      You’re also getting what was negotiated with 3 unions who have their own interests at heart and not the interests of the frontline alliance, for example.
      There have also been recommendations from the LRC.

      The timeline on this has been:
      Govt threatening with a very big stick
      Particular unions reacting according to their members and how much they expect to be affected
      Loads of different representative groupings pulling out
      LRC presenting with a (debatably) smaller stick
      Agreement between govt and 3 unions
      Presumption that thejournal has given you ever detail…..

      Reply
    • The fuss is about the parts of today’s agreement they still haven’t mentioned!! Watch this space!!

      Reply
    • They broke the first one already why would you vote yes to this expect this again and again…

      Reply
  • An article in today’s Irish Independent mentions the word ‘union’,in reference to Gardai and Officers in Pay Talks.
    The GRA and AGSI are Associations,whose members are forbidden,by Law,to affiliate to,or join any Trade Union. Media : Get your facts right before publication,please.

    Reply
  • Great to see top level salaries being cut. Freezing of increments makes sense too.

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    • Did I miss the vote? Damn, so wanted to vote no.

      Reply
    • Dillon 25/02/13 #

      @james- what with you working 2600 hours per week you probably hadn’t the time.

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    • I’m actually agreeing with David Higgins. All in all, it doesn’t seem that bad a deal for the lower paid public servant.

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    • Freezing increments is not sensible. It is another attack on newer public servants. Increments are awarded on a scale and most of the scales have somewhere between 8 and 12 points on them, meaning that once you are in situ 7-11 years, there are no further increments anyway. This hits the workers who already started working on reduced salaries, so whereas for instance in my profession (social work), a social worker hired on Jan 1st 2006 will currently earn €56,889 (assuming they got all increments) and there are no further increments, so freezing then matters not at all to them, whilst a social worker hired on Jan 1st 2013 will be earning €38,819 (with a max after seven years on our scale being €51,600). It is newer workers who started on reduced salaries who pay for freezing increments. This is deeply unfair.

      Reply
  • Bohane is behind this

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  • This looks like a good deal. If you are a frontline worker earning less than 65k can you explain how this will affect you?

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    • Won’t know exactly til it’s all announced but it’s effectively a cut to our core pay that 9-5 staff won’t have to endure.

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    • I’m not a front line public sector worker, but here:

      “The arrangement would see Sunday premiums cut from double-time to time-and-three-quarters, while Saturday payments will remain.

      Overtime payments have been reduced, though it was not clear by how much. Special rates for ‘twilight’ hours – where healthcare staff are paid at time-and-one-sixth for working between 6pm and 8pm, or to the end of their rostered shift – will be scrapped.”

      Or, I could have just told you to look up.

      Reply
    • Did u bother reading the above article?? Sunday pay, twilight hours, overtime.

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    • Not to get into a debate about private v public but your base pay remains untouched and you will still get extra pay for working twilight and sunday shifts. This is not something that is available in most jobs and quite frankly i think it’s ridiculous that anyone would expect these rates to remain in force with the state of our economy. It’s probably best to wait until the full proposal is published so we can see in monetary terms how someones monthly net will be affected compared to national average.

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    • Frontline workers deserve a payrise for the work they do, u can’t compare it to any other job. I think they need to strike for a payrise not for a paycut. I fully support them!

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    • Alan, the people who woprk 24/7 shifts ( and I am one of them ) will have their pay cut. I certainly got double time in every private sector job I worked which involved Sunday work. It won’t take long until this stick is used to beat the 24/7 private sector working by telling them that if the public sector only get time and three quarters thats all your getting. This would be a great deal if I was doing 9-5. But not to the many who don’t do 9-5.

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    • nivek 25/02/13 #

      @alan, you obviously have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.. Speculating about people’s pay and what they deserve.

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    • Dillon 25/02/13 #

      Geoff- God help ye. Less generous pay for Twilight pay and overtime. How dare they! The amount of people in the private sector who do extra hours for no extra cost is enormous. Spoilt little children ye are.

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    • Dillon 25/02/13 #

      Karolyn- you’ve heard to the Gathering, yes? People being encouraged to “come back to Ireland”. Can I respectfully suggest that instead you come back to the real world from the land of wishful thinking in which you patently currently reside. Don’t know if you noticed but the Irish Republic is broke. What is “deserved” doesn’t matter. What can be afforded is what is at hand.

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    • @ Dillon. He asked a question I answered it. u must get some horn comin on here and playing the spoilt public service card…you’re forever on here, your job must be quiet!

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    • I’ve already explained it to u but obviously u just don’t listen

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    • The alternative in a private company would be redundancies. The books need to be balanced either way. Perhaps public servants would be open to a round of compulsory redundancies???

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    • U really haven’t a clue what u r talking about, we already have had compulsory redundancies where I work so we r already working on a skeleton staff

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    • My god no wonder were f**ked with some of the apes that does be on this

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    • Dillon 25/02/13 #

      It’s your hat, Geoff. It drives me wild.

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    • So what alternatives do you guys propose?

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    • We’ll all take redundancy and go private, where the only way to get your healthcare will be to pay for it yourselves or have health insurance.
      Have ya thought about that yet? Sounds familiar doesn’t it? US health system anyone? Where you can barely get treated for emergencies never mind for something as meagre as an elective procedure.
      Would ye think what it is that ye are saying before coming here and smearing sh1t in our faces – we get enough of that in the day job.
      Trolling fools.

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    • censored 25/02/13 #

      I deserve a pay rise for what I do, you can’t compare it to any other job. So does everybody else. It’s only fair.

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  • wont make the slightest difference to those who sit in an office in a hospital deciding what colour curtains should be hung in a ward and work monday to thursday 9 to 5 with the obligatory 2 hours of tea breaks a day who do not work at weekends,bank holidays,christmas or at the frontline. ………….the ones that contribute nothing to the health service,,,siptu and ictu selling those who work shifts weekends bank holidays and all over xmas at the front line…fair play to the nursing union and the gra at least they walked the walk and have already demonstrated to o reilly and shatter they are not going to be intimidated

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  • You speak the truth @coddlers. Hope the union membership reject it in support of frontline staff. Can’t believe how slow the people are to realise how we re being enslaved by banking criminals. Noonan the biggest traitor this country has seen. Kenny s just a clown. Treating taxpayer mony like it was his family honour at stake.
    People who are unaware of the Bilderberg group, Council on Foreign Relations, their links with Denis O Brien, John Bruton, Peter Sutherland, Noonan, McDowell and the control of the media. Too busy watching the tv to see through the charade.

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  • Public sector holding the country to ransom again, ‘Our jobs are secure, our pensions guaranteed, you won’t give us an increment? I DON’T CARE ABOUT THE STATE OF THE ECONOMY!’ Don’t worry lads, the private sector will just sack a few more thousand people (who have mortgages too you know) and pay more USC increases to keep your gravy train rolling. And assuming a cliché is to follow about who will I call when I need an ambulance, Beacon or Vincent’s Private, which I’ll pay for out of my own health insurance.

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  • At least the lower paid public sector workers seem to be protected, it was the higher paid public sector workers that profited from the pention levy.

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  • Another horrible black day for Ireland. This goverment is a disgrace.

    Absolutely no democracy here these people are liars.

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  • @ALAN KELLEHER .. did you see that on the pulse ,the facts are i was there and it was people like you that was found guilty of wrong doing want to see my certificate of sanity signed Dr Liam Daly

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  • time to take your medicine lads the country is broke

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  • LIAM KELLY ….AMEN

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  • I composed a poem for the red tumb gang that took my good name herein. Incorporatedin a place ,that saves face,that humiliates intelligence,indifferent to the plight, An Oath taken,the law of the Allmighty, money their god,for conspiring a job. They listen and learn, to write and ordain, with greed to lead,in a way not on order. That you should win,and they should sin, Makes a fool of law, And a grin of sin

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  • Regonald Timpson should be better informed before he posts, what a hater

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