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Dublin: 3 °C Saturday 25 May, 2013

Column: I was raped and wouldn’t have chosen abortion – but we need a choice

There are few certainties when it comes to abortion, which is why we need to start treating women like adults, writes Hazel Katherine Larkin.

Hazel Katherine Larkin

ABORTION IS A hot topic in Ireland and in the Irish media again. It’s 20 years since the X Case that rocked Ireland to its core and divided the country. SPUC-ers termed themselves ‘pro-life’ as if everyone who held a different view was, somehow, ‘anti-life’ and feminists clamoured for a woman’s right to information and to choice.

The arguments often contained rhetoric like ‘You don’t know what you’d do if you were in that situation’. Or they pulled on emotional extremes like ‘What if your daughter was raped and then got pregnant?’

Well, when I was 12, I spent a few months worried that I was pregnant. It turned out I wasn’t. Years later, I learnt that one of the side-effects of the sexual abuse I suffered was that my reproductive system was so damaged, I actually couldn’t conceive until after I’d had surgery in my 20s. If I had been pregnant at that time, I’d have been pregnant by a relative as a result of rape (obviously).

I was terrified. What would the baby be like? What would my mother say? (I knew she’d blame me.) What would happen to me? This the worst case scenario that many people cite  in order to underscore how valuable abortion is – and how it should be available to women in this country. Obviously  they argue –  in this position, every woman would want an abortion.

Actually, no, they wouldn’t. Had I been pregnant, I wouldn’t have had an abortion. But that’s me. That’s my choice. I have absolutely no right to force my decision on anyone else. None.

Years later, just before I turned 30, I discovered – to my astonishment – that I was pregnant. The father of my child, as I have mentioned on this blog before, ‘suddenly remembered’ that he was married. To his cousin. Who was living in India, while he lived with me in Singapore.

Treat women like adults

I had already married and left two abusive men, and I had a 17 month old daughter from my second marriage. When I told people I was pregnant, many people assumed I’d ‘get rid of it’. At work, one of the people senior to me took me to one side and put pressure on me to have an abortion. He iterated how easy it was to have an abortion – compared to how hard it was to be a single parent.

“And you already have a child,” he reminded me. As if I needed reminding.

“How much harder do you think your life is going to be with two?” he asked.

He put a hand on my shoulder.

“Give yourself a break,” he counselled. “Have the procedure done this weekend. You’ll be back in work on Monday and no one need ever know.”

I didn’t have ‘the procedure’. I had my reasons for not wanting one – but they were my reasons. I had no right to foist my reasons on anyone else. Not then and not now. Which is why I support women’s right to choose. I support legislation that would make abortion legal in Ireland. Not just for medical reasons, either – because all that does is pit one type of woman against another. All sanctioning abortion ‘for medical reasons’ does is allow one group of women the right to choose, while removing the right to choose from another group of women.

Ireland needs to start treating women like adults; allowing them to make their own choices, and supporting them in the choices they make. Instead of, like it does now, turning away from Irishwomen who must journey overseas to have abortions for whatever reasons they make those decisions.

Hazel Katherine Larkin is a mother, writer, knitter, former co-editor of Women’s Views on News, an MA student at DCU and an ambassador for See Change. This article originally appeared on her blog, In My Own Write.

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Comments (411 Comments)

  • Hazel is so brave to share her story. Ireland had moved on in many ways, but abortion is still a taboo subject. The thousands of women who travel each year feel a stigma and conceal their experience even from friends and family. We are hypocrits in that we export our problem, principally to our near neighbours in the UK. Those who support abortion are reluctant to publicly express their view, and many of those who oppose abortion have quietly altered their position when the difficult decision had to be faced in their own families.

  • I despair to think what this article will spark again. I will never believe that I shouldn’t have the right to choose. And those on the other side (some) willing to kill and die because they believe I am not entitled to decide what happens to my body. How do we move forward?

    • To say and understand clearly that, while every human has a right to life, no human has a right to extend or save their their life through the use of the body of another person against their will.

      Forced birth is no different to rape, and forced birth laws are a kind of institutional rape.

    • @Auntie Dote The silly thing is that the state can actually hold it’s hands up and say “Hey, no forced birth here, you’re free to go over the water….” A disgusting stance to take but what’s the phrase? An Irish solution to an Irish problem.

    • But you do have an absolute right to choose! Do not have unprotected sex.

    • I feel much safer now. Seems I can just choose not to be raped.

    • “But you do have an absolute right to choose! Do not have unprotected sex.”

      Condoms break. Yhe emergency contraceptive pill is only effective between 59% and 84% of the time. One could have vomiting or diarrhea the during the 7 days before sex or even in the days after sex and this could caused the pill to be expelled from the body – thus diminishing its effectiveness. Not all women can take the pill (which is still the most effective form of contraception) for health reasons so they either use condoms or less effective contraceptive methods.
      All the women I know are vigilant about contraception but it is still possible for these women to fall pregnant and if we do all the blame is placed at our feet.
      Futhermore, women and female children can become pregnant from rape. It does happen and is nowhere near as rare as some people would like to think.

  • When will we ever learn? Hopefully Ireland will mature in another generation and stop trying to control women’s uterus.

  • Rob 21/08/12 #

    i’m reasonably neutral on my views of abortion – but would strongly favour a womans (a couple also) right to choose.

    the worry is the anecdote above – where the availablity of abortion becomes incentive for guys (and not only guys i’m sure) to put pressure on women to have an abortion and not have an unplanned baby.

    we shouldnt assume that the only people willing to force their views on women are the anti abortion brigade!

  • “Obviously, they argue, in this situation every woman would want an abortion.”

    This is a beautiful example of a straw woman. I have never heard any pro-choice proponent argue that they know, in advance HOW another woman would choose, or how she should choose.

    Obviously, to force a woman to give birth to her rapist’s baby is extremely cruel, perhaps more so than forcing her to give birth under other circumstances, but it has never been an argument that women who choose to give birth should be denied that option.

    The key word here to any one who has ever been paying attention, is CHOICE.

  • At least one person every day dies in Ireland while on the organ transplant list. We as a country do not make forced organ or blood donation law. Organ and blood donation are choices left to the individual. People will and do die without organ and blood donations yet I don’t hear the pro-life side out screaming for the our laws to be changed to demanded everyone donate their blood and organs. Why is it deemed ok to force a woman to use her body for another “person” [this is assuming you hold the view the personhood notion of a person being a person from the moment of conception] but not ok to force all citizens to give up control of their bodies to save another persons life?

    • Cliodhna, I think that is a fantastic idea you have hit on there. I have the back of my drivers licence ticked to donate organs (some people aren’t aware of this) and carry an organ donation card with me and agree that the law should be changed in this regard so it should be an opt out rather than an opt in.

  • I like the column but I have to strongly disagree that pro-choice campaigners argue that all women who become pregnant as a result of rape would want an abortion.

    The main reason I’m for abortion on demand is because you can’t know the nuances behind a person’s decision and because every woman is wildly different. I’ve never seen anyone assume that all women in a particular situation would choose the same option. There’s a comment above in which the poster lists two scenarios in which he considers abortion acceptable. But I think he would find that there are a lot more that he would understand if he heard every woman’s individual story. This is why it should be left into women to decide, only they can decide what is best for them.

    • Actually, the only people arguing that rape survivors all make the same decision are these lovely people.

      http://www.prolifeinfo.ie/women/sexual-assault/pregnancy-as-a-result-of-rape/

    • medred 21/08/12 #

      The behaviour of Steph and Nick is disgustingly dogmatic. How dare anyone have an opinion that is not identical to theres. The issues involved in abortion are very nuanced. The only wrong opinion is one that fails to see the difficulties posed by rape and abortion.

    • Whose dogma is it? How is it dogmatic? When have I claimed someone was not entitled to a different opinion? Stating my opinion when it is contrary to someone else’s does not mean I think that they shouldn’t be entitled to an opinion. The comment you have chosen to reply to doesn’t even include a particular argument with anyone but the author. You’ll also notice that my point is mostly about the nuances surrounding decisions to have a termination. There is no such thing as a right or wrong opinion, there are things that are right or wrong, there are laws that are right or wrong, there are statements that are right or wrong (if they pose as facts) but an opinion is inherently incapable of being right or wrong, except in your opinion.

    • Yes, stephanie, apparently by engaging in debate with other people, you are not allowing them an opinion?

  • Women should have the choice, full stop. Its no one eles decision except hers. This country is primitive.

    • Have you considered the fathers? Should they perhaps have a say?
      If a couple conceive a child together, is it right that the fathers views and rights are completely ignored?

      Don’t reply with rapist, I am not talking about that minority. (i.e. abortion due to pregnancy from rape, as a subset of all abortions)

      I am not against abortion in itself, but it needs to be thought through, and all angles considered.

      Childish slogans and repeated mantras aside, it is a serious issue deserving better. It cannot be reduced to “women should have the choice”

      Women have to be considered
      Fathers have to be considered (perhaps they do not want their unborn child killed)
      The child has to be considered.
      Special circumstances have to be considered (rape, medical conditions, mothers health etc)

      None of these considerations can be taken in isolation and used to create a solution, that is obviously childish, irresponsible and stupid.

      Thx.

    • So, GoogleTrafficking, if you believe that fathers should have equal rights, would you support the right of the father to force a woman to have an abortion? Because that is what you mean when you are saying fathers should have equal rights. That they should be able to force a woman to have an abortion against her will.

      Ideally most women would (and do, actually, to the tune of 75%) make this decision with their partners and families. But I don’t believe a woman can be forced to either have an abortion or continue a pregnancy against her will.

    • I think that the point of legalising abortion is to allow women to take all those things into consideration herself.

    • Stephanie,

      That would be the opposite of considering mens rights to their child, it would remove them completely from the decision.
      By considered, I mean evaluated and protected in any legislation. Otherwise, the woman could do whatever she wants and completely ignore the childs fathers wishes. Can you see why that would be wrong and unfair on the father? Having their unborn child “terminated” against their wishes?

      Try reversing the situation in your mind to test it fairness.

    • I think the problem with legislating on abortion is that we cannot seem to construct a law around it. Our laws are designed to concern individuals and about our treatment as other people as individuals. The problem that pregnancy poses for this construct is the issue of three individuals being concerned with one individual’s body. How do you weigh the opinion of each? If the woman wants an abortion but the father doesn’t, what do we do? If the father wants the abortion but the woman doesn’t, what do we do? Is she allowed to not have an abortion on the basis of her right to bodily integrity? But she is not allowed to have an abortion?

      I agree it would be nice if the father’s opinion could be taken into account, I think that if I was planning to have one I would tell him (unless he was abusive) but I can’t see myself not going through with it on that basis. Ideally he’d be supportive of whatever decision she made but if he’s not then what? Should I sacrifice my body for nine months for him? Should I put up with strangers patting my belly? My neighbours looking at me and asking me about it? And me saying what? That the baby isn’t mine? That it’s the father’s and is going off to him as soon as it is born? Does he pay for the medical treatment I need during and after? Can he pay to repair my back, my urinary system?

      The simple thing, and it is really really simple, that throws a wrench into applying any conventional legislation to abortion is the simple fact that it is the DNA of three people in the body of one. In my opinion, the one whose body it is should be allowed to decide for herself whether or not she will sacrifice her rights in favour of the rights of the other two. The only thing we can legislate for is who gets to make that decision. By my reckoning the current law means that the state gets to decide and the default decision is that no-one is allowed an abortion under any circumstance except ectopic pregnancy.

    • Eleen 21/08/12 #

      I think since pregnancy is a pretty risky and life-altering thing (physically especially), I don’t think the man involved should have any rights equal or above the woman’s. Just logically, if he has any say in her keeping a pregnancy, then he has a say over her body. That would pretty much go against the woman’s basic human rights.

      In a healthy relationship, women make the decision with their partner’s wishes taken into consideration. If you yourself imagined forcing a woman to stay pregnant against her wishes in order to have a child, I hope you would feel pretty wrong about it.

    • medred 21/08/12 #

      ”Ideally he’d be supportive of whatever decision she made but if he’s not then what? Should I sacrifice my body for nine months for him? Should I put up with strangers patting my belly? My neighbours looking at me and asking me about it? And me saying what? That the baby isn’t mine? That it’s the father’s and is going off to him as soon as it is born? Does he pay for the medical treatment I need during and after? Can he pay to repair my back, my urinary system?”

      Should of thought of that before the act, then shouldnt you

    • Eleen 21/08/12 #

      medred…go away

    • medred 21/08/12 #

      No thanks

    • Ah yes, the auld ‘you get what you signed up for, you tart’ argument. Classic. Indeed, lets have people who suffer from HIV die in the streets, or anyone with Hepatitis, or type II diabetes, or heart disease or COPD. They all just got what was coming to them after all. No public support for any of them!

      No word on whether the child has any chance of survival outside the womb, the effectiveness of contraception, sex without consent etc. etc. etc.

    • Steph pay no attention – medred is a very frequent troll.

    • medred 21/08/12 #

      lets have people who suffer from HIV die in the streets, or anyone with Hepatitis, or type II diabetes, or heart disease or COPD. They all just got what was coming to them after all. No public support for any of them!

      treating these disease dosent involve killing anyone
      and not treating them resultsin death and diability; pregnancy doesnt

    • Actually pregnancy is the number one cause of mortality for women between the age of 15-19 in many third world countries. Pregnancy can also cause disability – even the healthiest of pregnancies can cause serious back problems, muscle imbalance, tendon rupture, slipped discs, spinal cord irritation (sciatica), giving birth causes incontinence and can increase frequency of bladdar infections. My mum had to have a bladder repair and it was because she had four kids. For her it was a sacrifice she was willing to make.

      Women who have C-sections can’t drive for six weeks and can face lifelong back problems. Women with rheumatoid arthritis face major flare ups and can’t take their meds (if they don’t want an accidental abortion), women with kidney disease, women with epilepsy and more and more and more. The list goes on and on and on.

      If you don’t know anything about pregnancy or it’s effects on the human body either do some research or don’t comment on it. I’ve treated women with almost all of the above and while those patients were all happy to make that sacrifice there is no way I wouldn’t support a woman who wasn’t.

    • I know Karen, but I just don’t want that crap put out there and go unchallenged for someone who is affected by this issue to read and wonder if they have any support at all.

    • medred 21/08/12 #

      Actually I know a lot about pregnancy thanks
      1 in 10,000 risk
      sorry but a normal pregnancy is physiological not pathological
      Using extremes to prove a point is dishonest so stop

    • I’m glad Sorcha has developed the magic ability to determine who will and will not suffer problems like you described or severe eclampsia. It must be nice to know that none of that will happen to you before getting pregnancy. These conditions are rare, but all women risk them while pregnant.

    • 1 in 10,000 risk for what? For one of the conditions described above? And a normal pregnancy is physiological not pathological but even using the phrase ‘normal pregnancy’ is a misnomer. The differences in how women experience pregnancy are huge and widely varied.

      As for serious back problems, muscle imbalance, tendon rupture, slipped discs, spinal cord irritation (sciatica), incontinence, bladdar repairs, epilepsy and RA – none of those things are ‘extremes’. They all exist and the musculoskeletal disorders are practically standard. You can consider them extremes if you like but the type of abortion legislation you seem to want would completely ignore the existence of these conditions and discount them in deciding whether or not a woman should be allowed to have an abortion.

      Musculoskeletal and urinary disorders are so common and so expected that women barely even seek treatment for them and just consider them a sacrifice to be suffered through if they’re going to have kids. The very first question I ask a female patient with back pain is if she has had children. If she says yes the second is how many and how she delivered.

    • Eleen 21/08/12 #

      Stephanie, you’re doing amazing work here, thanks for all the great comments!

    • Thanks Eleen, you’re making me blush! Not out to impress or anything, just something I feel very strongly about. Should clairfy as well because people have made this mistake before, I’m a physiotherapist, not a doctor.

    • medred 22/08/12 #

      Steph no offence you lack basic obstetric knowledge here
      I could explain more but im too lazy

      look up relaxin etc

    • No, actually, I don’t. If you think that I lack it because of my profession then you need to do a little research into the profession. I also know exactly what relaxin is, what it does, when it’s produced and why. I also know that it is the cause of some of the musculoskeletal disorders I mention. Hip laxity for example, women with pubic symphysis pain, women with congenital hip problems who have to use crutches throughout their pregnancy and develop arthritis as a result.

      I’m not sure how you think relaxin supports your argument, but since you claim to be too lazy to explain how I’m going to go ahead an assume that’s because you don’t know.

    • Also would you like to state your source of medical expertise? I’ve stated my profession, what’s yours?

    • medred 22/08/12 #

      all reversible then ?

    • Firstly would you like to retract your accusation of gynecological ignorance?

      Secondly, since when is arthritis reversible? Or chronic bladdar infections? Or incontinence? Or back pain? Some of these are treatable in some cases but most recur throughout the woman’s life time and have effects on other systems. The fact that they’re reversible doesn’t mean women should have to suffer through them.

      And to reiterate – would you like to state your source of medical expertise? I’ve stated my profession, what’s yours?

    • medred 22/08/12 #

      I stand by my comment especially after yours
      all reversible see relaxin

    • Do you think relaxin is some magical cure all? Relaxin doesn’t restore a damaged urethra. Relaxin is not an in built antibiotic that prevents recurring bladdar infections. Osteoarthritis is not reversible! If you think it is then you really need to do some more research and I’ll reiterate – I’ve stated my profession, why don’t you state yours? Where do you get your information from? I get mine from a four year degree, scientific studies taken from respectable journals and years of treating a wide variety of patients. Including many mothers and pregnant women.

    • medred 22/08/12 #

      No offence you need to study harder because relaxin is the cause and when its gone you UTI and joint hypermobility goes away

    • Eleen 22/08/12 #

      Stephanie, it takes a lot of work to come onto places like this and prove people wrong time after time and fight the trolls. But it’s really worth it! Medred 0 – Stephanie 1 :D

    • medred 22/08/12 #

      We win you lose
      schoolyard stuff

    • and calling someone a “prod” is the height of maturity?!!?

  • nubus 21/08/12 #

    Dermot, I obviously didn’t mean those terms to be used lightly. As for your statement telling me to grow up? The majority of people my age aren’t bothered to have a debate like this, so I at least deserve some respect there. I may not be as experienced as you (or anyone else here for that matter); but please try to remember that essentially I’m a member of “the future generation”. I have the right to vote, let alone the right to have this debate.

  • Julie 21/08/12 #

    I wonder if men could carry children would the law have changed already by now??? (just a thought)! I’m no feminist! I believe most people make decisions based on the situation they are in at the time, I know women who have had abortions and they know it was the right thing for them at the time….. Who are we to judge their decisions?

  • I JUST refuted her points with SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE. and confusing a spokesperson from one pro-life group posting misleading billboards and other pro-life group posting misleading billboards isn’t really shallow and fallacious. It’s an easy mistake. I don’t see any personal attacks.

  • nubus 21/08/12 #

    As Lenny Rooney said; the debate is about choice. Just because abortion clinics exist does not by any means force the carrier of the child to use their service. Choice. She has the choice to avail of the services they’re offering. This is so ludicrous.

  • nubus 21/08/12 #

    his is gone beyone retarded. I am strongly pro-abortion at the age of 18. I think abortion services/clinics should definitely be established on Ireland. Just because women are offered to have an abortion doesn’t mean they have to have one. Wouldnt it be nice to have the luxury of a choice? Or have they stripped us of that, too.

    • As a pro-choice supporter I appreciate your comment. However, if you don’t mind me pointing out, the term ‘pro-abortion’ isn’t exactly accurate, since it shows a preference for only one option.

      Many anti-choice people, or ‘pro-life’ as they like to call themselves, like to use the term ‘pro-abortion’ to describe the pro-choice movement, since (in my experience) they want to portray us as single-minded, selfish people only concerned with forcing women to terminate pregnancies. I just thought I’d mention it because it’s a term they use to belittle and misrepresent the pro-choice movement.

    • Siobhan, you are absolutely right to tease apart the nuances of the words we use to describe our positions on this issue.

      I personally favour the term “anti-forced birth,” because this issue is so often discussed as if women are somehow not even human enough for their rights to be considered. Certainly, many argue from the position that women have fewer rights than a group of cells that is, as yet, a mere “seed” that, IF planted in the right soil, and IF supplied with access to the right nutrients and a waste disposal system, and IF allowed a space WITHIN THE BODY OF ANOTHER PERSON in which to grow to independence of breath, MAY one day BECOME a human person.

      It cannot be repeated often enough, that the people who advocate that women should be forced to give birth to “every seed that lands in their soil” claim a right for a foetus THAT IS NOT EVER GRANTED to any other category of human being.

      No human in our society is granted the right to preserve or extend their life by using the body of another person without their consent.

  • Summary of the argument so far (should be noted this doesn’t apply to all participants)

    Pro-choice – “Statistic, reference, argument conclusion”

    Pro- life – “You’re not qualified to argue with me!”

    Pro-choice – “What?”

    Pro-life – “*insert ad hom here”

  • Thank you for this article. This line says it all.
    “That’s my choice. I have absolutely no right to force my decision on anyone else. None.”
    Damn straight.
    Mind your own business people.
    What a woman does with her womb is NONE of your concern.
    Why don’t you worry about the millions upon millions of starving, sick and impoverished children on this earth already? Why are you so selfish that you must force more into this world if a woman finds herself in this or similar situation?
    Give Irish women SAFE and LEGAL termination. Guess what?? They do it anyway – abroad or dangerously at home.

    • If my girlfriend was going to have a termination, I promise you this, i am going to have my input aswell. Like or not.

      It is MY unborn child aswell, so i WILL have input, no matter what ANYONE says.

    • How are you going to ensure that happens? What will you do if she chooses to have the abortion anyway?

    • I never said i was going to stop her, i said i was going to have INPUT in the decision.

      It may be HER body, but it’s THEIR child. Their responsibility, after THEY had sex. If both make a joint decision to have a child, and one decided not to have the child anymore, is it fair on the other person who wanted the child?

      And if her partner meant that much to her, she’d sit down and go through ALL the options.

      Now i’m NOT saying i’m anti-abortion in anyway, there are some circumstances where it would be called for.

    • After you’ve had your input, say that your input was that you didn’t want the abortion, what then?

    • It’s not just *don’t have an abortion*

      I’d go through her REASONS for having an abortion and have a grown-up discussion about it. If she doesn’t want to have the child, then fine, i will raise the child on my own.

      If she wants contact, great, if not, then that’s what she wants to do.

      As i said, yeah its her body, she can do what she wants, but BOTH of them created the child, and one of them should not has sole decision of having an abortion without some kind of input from their partner.

      For me thats just wrong. Obviously there are some occasions where that is not possible but still

    • Would it not bother you that you would be forcing her to go through the physical process of pregnancy against her will? Would you really be comfortable with that?

    • We’re not talking about the raising of a child here, if we were the topic would be adoption, not abortion. We’re talking about a woman who is pregnant and doesn’t want to be. We’re talking about a woman can have an abortion if she wants to. What if she is nine weeks pregnant, doesn’t want to go through the next 31 weeks of pregnancy, but you want her to go through the 31 weeks of pregnancy. What then?

    • If you want her to continue the pregnancy against her wishes, should you be able to obtain an injunction to keep her from drinking and smoking heavily while pregnant?

  • nubus 21/08/12 #

    Yeah dude, I know what age I am. And don’t forget, I’m speaking from a different generation. I’ve had friends get pregnant at the age of 17 and it was definitely labeled ‘crisis pregnancy’. What is so bad about having the choice to ,simply put, cancel a pregnancy?

  • Liam, I am a student of psychology and am showing you links to psychology and psychiatry journals that give the analysis. How am I trying to act as a health professional? By bringing facts into the debate instead of simple opinion?

    • medred 22/08/12 #

      undergraduate or graduate???
      psychiatry is not psychology by the way

    • Exactly, you are a student of psychology. That means that you are not qualified to offer a professional opinion, indeed in many jurisdictions if a student tries to pass herself off as a professional it would be grounds for disbarment. Even at that appeal to authority is a logical fallacy, if you were genuine in your scholarship you would actually study contrary views.

    • That’s why I’m not offering a professional opinion. I am a person on a comments thread partaking in a discussion. When did I ever say that I was a healthcare professional? I haven’t had an abortion either, does that mean I’m not allowed partake in this comments section?

      I am simply giving you details of the studies done by professionals, so you can be educated on the realities of mental health in relation to abortion, or lack of access thereof. If you want to ignore them, and instead get angry, that’s absolutely you choice.

    • Since you persistently refuse to state your own source of knowledge you’re in no position to criticise the qualifications of others.

    • You are giving the studies that suit your own preconceived ideas, you have not done an extensive study of the available literature, you have, at best, read refutations of studies that you disagree with because of your own ideology.

    • Stephanie, I’m not sure who that’s directed at but if it was me then my source of knowledge is logic.

    • medred 22/08/12 #

      Im not the one referring to academic publications designed for experts a field

    • medred 22/08/12 #

      bebhinn I am educated in mental health and when I want to enquire into an area I use entry level texts

    • What is she supposed to refer to so? Journalistic articles? Opinion pieces? Biased websites? Family planning services information pages that base their information on those same articles? Youth Defense? The GOP?

      If we can’t argue this based on facts we can’t argue it at all.

      Also that was aimed at medred – please state your qualification.

    • *Sigh*. Medred, if you were educated in mental health you would have progressed from entry level texts. I would be concerned about dealing with a professional who was still reading entry level. This is a pointless argument that I’m not engaging with. If you can’t get your head around big boy books, that’s really your problem, not mine.

      Liam, the fact that you think your understanding of logic is more relevant than years of scientific research worldwide, then I am happy to walk away now from this, because eiter a. you are not very bright, or b. you have an ego problem the size of the moon.

      In both cases, you have both proven yourselves unable to have a scientifically based debate regarding a highly important topic. Abortion is a medical procedure, and as such, that’s what I will focus on when educating myself. You two do not agree with that sentiment, so I shall bid you adieu and carry on educating people who actually want to be educated and appreciate the real evidence, whether they agree with abortion or not.

    • medred 22/08/12 #

      The facts need interpretation critique
      thats why textbooks are written and students use them and not reading through thousands of studies

    • God this is getting boring. THE STATEMENTS FROM THE PAPERS CITED ARE FROM THE ABSTRACT OF THE PAPER, WHICH IS THE OVERALL CONCLUSION. This cannot be published unless it is peer reviewed by the APA. Also, you NEED to go through the journals to get a decent degree, you can’t just use handbooks. Why are you AGAINST gaining more education and using stronger sources than basic textbooks? Do you not aspire to more than the basics in life? Seriously, that is the STRANGEST attitude to gaining knowledge I have ever heard.

      Look, I’m sorry to say, but I can’t be bothered talking to you anymore. I’ve shown you the links to the relevant literature. I chose this literature as it is the only literature. There is NO substantial literature that contradicts it. Read it, don’t read it, I don’t care. I’m glad you came out with such nonsense, becuase now anyone reading this thread can now see the facts, and also see that you have NONE to back yourself up, and you dislike educating yourself above a certain level.

      You’re anti-abortion, I’m pro-choice. I won’t change, you won’t change, let’s leave it at that.

    • medred 22/08/12 #

      Bebhinn you spam up the comments sections with articles that you probably havent read
      You have no academic qualification
      You have no education in mental health and yet refer to articles that would be reading material of a SpR in Psychiatry … they’re the big boys people like Dr Semple and Dr Smyth not you

    • Never said I was a professional and specifically stated that I am not qualifeid yet. i am a student of psychology I said, remember? It’s a shame you don’t like the non entry-level literature, but personally I can’t apologise for educating myself.

    • medred 22/08/12 #

      no misinforming yourself or deluding yourself
      I know my limits you dont

    • So you think published and verified psychology studies are misinformation. You’re a genius. Bye.

    • Religious intolerance does you no favours.

    • “Bet your a prod” Wow. Just wow.

      Also – you still haven’t stated your qualification while continuing to criticise that of others.

    • Soooooo you hate “prods”? And you think a really old Irish name, that of Brian Boru’s wife and daughter, denotes non-catholic? YOU TRULY ARE A GENIUS!!!

    • medred 22/08/12 #

      Never met an Irish person with the name Bebhinn

      What Mary or Susan too good for ya

    • you seriously didn’t just ask that question did you?
      I mean, did I read that right?!!?

    • I didn’t choose my name, my parents did. So you’re slagging my parents? LOL! this gets better and better. But when people lose an argument they often turn offensive and make personal attacks. Go for it! You’re only highlighting how sorely you’ve lost your case.

    • It’s a bit ironic to go on about foreign invaders when you’re unfamiliar with Irish. And no, sectarian hatred doesn’t win a lot of arguments.

    • medred 22/08/12 #

      yeah those who speak Irish are the real Irish in 2012

      Shows what Nick knows about Ireland

    • Yeah Nick, shows what you know about Ireland…. LOL! This has gotten RIDICULOUS!!!! I’m over it. Stephanie, I wouldn’t worry about finding out what his quals are. If he has any, they clearly have nothing to do with science, medicine, sociology, psychology, or anything in any way relevant to this argument. He’s just a mouthy little man woh doesn’t deserve any more of our attention. Safe flight! x

    • There’s no way this guy went to university.

  • nubus 21/08/12 #

    *ridiculous. I didn’t say abortion was luxury. I said it would be nice to have the luxury of having a choice. We are living.in a country where if a woman becomes pregnant (for whatever reason) she HAS TO keep the child? It’s like Nazi Germany all over again.

  • Can you tell me what you base your views on abortion on, if it is not reading the information surrounding the issue?

    • medred 22/08/12 #

      I dont refer to academic journals to support my personal opinion
      You need a basic understanding of the issues
      do a Phd on it without having any biases then I’ll respect your position but no copy and paste countless publications in the past 20 years and all the while referring to the DSM as DMS

    • I base my views primarily on logic, after that ethics all informed by science.

    • Ok, but no scientific evidence that you can refer to here. And you are dismissive of someone referring to scientific evidence that opposes you. LOL!

    • medred 22/08/12 #

      i have already referred to a suitable textbook for your level giving you the quote from page 418

    • ah! baseless assumptions on a person’s character or level of intelligence. How I missed thee!!

    • medred 22/08/12 #

      oh great Romeo to the rescue
      Yes critique of thhe person make the claim based on authority is a fair tactic

    • Saying ‘bet your a prod’ isn’t. Nor is criticising someone else’s qualifications while refusing persitently to state your own.

      State your qualification medred. And regardless of your feelings about Bebhinn’s name at least she has given her real name while you continue to cower behind an avatar.

    • Sarah H 22/08/12 #

      Bebhinn, I’m sure you don’t need anyone to tell you this – but you’re doing everything right. Peer-reviewed journals are the only scientifically verifiable evidence to back up claims.

      This is all getting ridiculous. Facts are facts. Facts do not discriminate! Facts don’t care if you have a degree, or if you work in a particular field.

      ‘Entry-level’ textbooks, readers and study guides are often guilty of grossly oversimplifying issues and as such my university lecturers never recommended them even for personal study. You don’t need my advice, but don’t ever waste your time with them.

      P.S., I don’t see how anyone can tell you that you are ‘misinterpreting’ studies when you have largely been quoting from their conclusions in their abstracts – you would have to work really quite hard to misinterpret such a thing! ;)

    • Eh, I’d like to know where I’m supposed to have claimed any authority? I use facts, based on scientific studies. I don’t need to be a scientist to READ them, and have faith in science. By your logic, I should ignore scientific evidence that smoking can cause cancer, because I’m not a scientist. Got any marlboro lights? Cheers.

    • medred 22/08/12 #

      did you put out the hashtag help call

      Im glad to see all these women deny that there is any ill effect a trigger to say that can cause mental distress after an abortion

      amazing really

    • Thanks Sarah! I’m glad the argument is getting so ridiculous as it only helps our cause. Any anyone undecided on abortion access in Ireland can see clearly the type of “argument” available for either side of the debate. I know if I wanted to learn about something, I’d be more interested in facts than opinion. Particularly opinions of those who hide their names and faces, and have nothing but hateful things to say.

    • medred 22/08/12 #

      claiming that science supports abortion
      great science fail there

    • science fail?
      from someone who uses entry level texts? Bit rich!!

    • science fail?
      from someone who ONLY uses entry level texts? Bit rich!!

    • medred 22/08/12 #

      Great advising someone that complex academic journals written by experts is not the best starting point is a fool
      Really Romeo

    • But I’m not at the starting point. I’m in my final year. And you said you’re educated in mental health, so surely you can read them?

      Why are you calling Gavin Romeo by the way? I’m actually very interested in that.

    • entry level texts are a decent starting point but you don;t ONLY USE those.
      Complex ideas call for more complex words, Friendo!

    • Because he has absolutely zero legs to stand on so he’s resorting to ad hom attacks.

    • curse my rapid fire fingers! I posted that too quickly,
      and yeah, what’s with the Romeo, Medred? My name is clearly posted above!

    • It’s cause you’re sexy, Gav.

    • medred 22/08/12 #

      I prefer Romeo. You are a good looking guy

    • medred 22/08/12 #

      So skipping the entry level texts go for the issues under debate

      Try treating renal failure that way
      why we us textbooks with cartoons to help with the difficult stuff

    • medred 22/08/12 #

      final year wooo!!!

      you draw a conclusion contrary to those of experts
      sorry if I dont trust you

    • If my doctor uses books with cartoons in them to diagnose ANYTHING to do with me, I’m getting him struck off!
      Entry level texts are just that, ENTRY level texts, as you gain more knowledge you progress. Hence the reading of more complex material!!

    • No. no I don’t. The experts state that there is no such thing as post abortion syndrome. Show me enough valid studies that refute this claim. Oh, sorry, you can’t. They don’t exist. Done talking to you Medred, it’s pointless. And boring.

    • medred 22/08/12 #

      keep out of Hospital Gavin

      This is going in circles

      final year psych student draws a conclusion contrary to authors of Oxford handbook of psyhriatry = problem

      stick to the basics kids

    • medred 22/08/12 #

      adjustment disorder is common post abortion
      dont care what you call it you say it doesnt exist

  • Abortion should have been legal a long time ago. It’s not a great thing but it’s a woman’s’ right to make that decision about her own body.
    The only reservations I used to have were science based, religion was never a factor which it is for all the anti-abortion people today.

    For those who oppose abortion go back to the 20th century and let the rest of us get on with this century.
    You’re o the wrong side of history people and I say all this as a man.

  • If you genuinely believe that the foetus is a person, it is entirely consistent to be against rape-related abortion.

    • It absolutely is consistent. It just strikes most people who have dealt with the pain of rape or sexual abuse as rather unfeeling as to the fact that a woman is not only raped but forced against her will to remain pregnant.

    • Nick – just so we are clear, I don’t think any woman should be forced against her will to remain pregnant.

      I’m just not sure that bringing rape into the abortion debate is healthy.

    • I think women’s experiences are relevant. Some women do become pregnant by rape or while in an abusive relationship or who have mental health issues. It is very frustrating to me as woman who has been pregnant when men indicate that experiences should not be part of the abortion debate – to me, it’s the most important part.

    • I don’t like the way you have introduced the fact that I am man to qualify my opinion. It is as valid as yours.

      An unwanted pregnancy is an unwanted pregnancy. Introducing abortion-qualifiers based on the source of that pregnancy is ridiculous and wildly impractical. Abortion should be available regardless of the circumstances of the pregnancy. Anything else is morally illogical.

    • Men can have opinions, but I do think it’s important to aknowlege where you lack life experience. You will never carry an unwanted pregnancy. It’s similar to how I can support LGBT goals, but I do always need to aknowlege that I don’t have the life experience, their life experience of it should be heard and is an important aspect of the discussion.

    • To reduce your last statement to its absurd conclusion, my opinion is as valid as that of an infertile woman.

    • Yes. I would again argue that while women who cannot have children can certainly have an opinion, it’s important to aknowlege the need for those who have life experience to share it and for those who don’t to be respectful of their lack of life experience.

    • medred 21/08/12 #

      Great a rights activist who disfranchises people

    • Disenfranchises means denying people the right to vote. As I’ve said MANY times, men can have a valid opinion and can vote on this. But I think a discussion of rights is incomplete without the personal experience being talked about.

      I guess it’s hard for you to grasp that the majority of people voting on this legislation are wealthy men while the majority of people impacted are working class women. Their experiences should be shared more often, rather than ignored by people like you, Medred.

    • medred 21/08/12 #

      No actually the majority of people affected positively would be wealthy women
      the ones harmed would be the working class women who are told they shouldnt have their child

    • So did you just make that up or….?

    • Really?! So working class women are the ones who can easily afford flights to the UK, while rich women have to try to have illegal abortions in their kitchen or have yet another child that they can’t cope without a supportive partner to help with childcare?

      Just read the annual report of the Abortion Support Network, Ireland’s only abortion fund. The women struggling are working class. I think it’s horrible that you deny their experiences and ignore the real economic inequality of the abortion ban.

    • medred 22/08/12 #

      Nick any group called abortion support fund has a conflict of interest

    • Why? Does Amnesty International have a conflict of interest when campaigning for human rights? Does the IFPA have a conflict of interest when campaigning for sex education?

    • medred 22/08/12 #

      is abortion a human right
      maybe durex should fund sex education

    • Could you please state why you think that a conflict of interest exists? Durex is a private, for profit company, all the above listed organisations, including the ASN, are not-for-profits and charities. Where is the conflict of interest?

    • According to the United Nations, abortion is indeed a human right.

      Now, care to back up your claim that abortion bans disproportionately harm wealthy women? To be honest, you seem very out of touch with the real difficulties faced by poorer women attempting to access abortion.

    • medred 22/08/12 #

      Why was my comment deleted?
      Was it because I questioned the value of the concept of human rights?
      How dare I

  • What makes the human life so special? Maybe the conscience? We’re all animals.
    We murder animals everyday for food but when it comes to aborting a foetus it’s a terrible thing to do.
    Women should not be confined by laws created by men.
    Hopefully I got my point across.

  • PS. Excellent piece of writing Hazel.

  • nubus 21/08/12 #

    This is gone beyond retarded. I am strongly pro-abortion at the age of 18. I think abortion services/clinics should definitely be established In Ireland. Just because women are offered to have an abortion doesn’t mean they have to have one. Wouldn’t it be nice to have the luxury of a choice? Or have they stripped us of that, too.

  • As a guy I wish a lot of the guys would shut up on this debate and let’s hear what the women have to say because it concerns them and them only.

    • Well maybe when women start getting pregnant by themselves that will happen.

      Until then men have a RIGHT to decide what happens to their unborn child, just as much.

      Like it or not.

    • Not under irish law, they don’t. Men are deprived of the right to decide what happens to their ‘unborn child” if they and their partners don’t wish to stay pregnant….

    • I do definitely believe that children have an equal right to the care and attention of both father and mother. I don’t think there is a category of “parental” rights that is different to “human” rights.

      But this debate concerns the right that a woman has to her own bodily autonomy. No other human being, whoever they may be, or in whatever relation to her they may be, has any right to infringe that against her will, any more than anyone has the right to infringe the father’s bodily autonomy against HIS will. Or any more than, once a child is an independently breathing human being WHO DOES NOT REQUIRE THE USE OF ANOTHER PERSON’S BODY TO CONTINUE TO LIVE, any parent may infringe their bodily autonomy against their will.

      There are no “mother’s” rights, or “father’s” rights. There are only human rights. And the right to bodily autonomy is pretty bedrock fundamental to those rights.

  • So you reckon an Abortion is a Luxury nubus? i think both pro life and pro acjoice sides will have a problem with that just as I do! What a rediculous thing to say!

  • Have you considered the fathers? Should they perhaps have a say?
    If a couple conceive a child together, is it right that the fathers views and rights are completely ignored?
    Don’t reply with rapist, I am not talking about that minority. (i.e. abortion due to pregnancy from rape, as a subset of all abortions)
    I am not against abortion in itself, but it needs to be thought through, and all angles considered.
    Childish slogans and repeated mantras aside, it is a serious issue deserving better. It cannot be reduced to “women should have the choice”
    Women have to be considered
    Fathers have to be considered (perhaps they do not want their unborn child killed)
    The child has to be considered.
    Special circumstances have to be considered (rape, medical conditions, mothers health etc)
    None of these considerations can be taken in isolation and used to create a solution, that is obviously childish, irresponsible and stupid.
    Thx.

    • So you’d support legislation allowing men to force women to have an abortion? Since you think they should have an equal right?

    • You could look on it in two ways. what if a man doesnt want to be a father and is forced by law to pay for it for 18 years? its not as simple as your comment makes out.

    • Thx….

      My comment was not intended to make it look simple, it was intended to broaden and highlight its complexity.

      It is a good point Nick, which should be considered….the unborn child is the biological product of the conception between 2 parents (again for this example make them a couple, and unplanned)
      It is obviously wrong for the father to force the mother to have an abortion, it should be a shared decision, with both parties agreeing, it is both of their child after all.
      In this case how can you justify excluding the father from consideration? and to reverse you question, agree with legislation ignoring 50% of the parents.

      You see it is a much broader topic than “a woman can do what she wants with her womb” type childish comments (not attributing them to you Nick by the way)

    • The problem is that in most cases, both people agree (75% of women ending pregnancies due so with consent of their partner.) Laws that do not allow for abortion would prohibit couples who both agree from ending a pregnancy. So current Irish law ignores the wishes of a good few potential fathers.

      The problem is what happens when they disagree. Most pro life advocates would argue that the person advocating to not have an abortion should have primary consideration. I disagree, as I am uncomfortable with forced pregnancy or forced abortion, and believe the woman should be able to decide as ultimately, she is the one forced to give blood to the foetus for 9 months.

    • In the case that both parties agree, absolutely no problem, go ahead.

      In the case that they do not, I cant agree with you, it is too cheap to say just because she carries the child, the father is irrelevant to the life or death of his child. It is unjust and unfair, objectively wrong.

      I don’t have the solution myself, but as you can see it is a much deeper issue.

      Perhaps an indépendant adjudication of some kind? Considering the reasons and making a judgement.

      I also cannot agree with your choice of language i.e. “forced pregnancy”, as it would imply the source of the pregnancy being forced on an individual, or being forced to become pregnant.
      If they are responsible for their own pregnancy, the correct term would be “the prevention of unilateral forced abortion”, this would be a more accurate and honest description. (same goes for your point about “forced to give blood to her child”…a little extreme don’t you think)
      This is because it is not an action, but the prevention of an action, all other things remain the same, if that makes sense.

    • Why can’t the woman be the adjudicator? That’s every other decision a person makes about their body is made. Why can’t she decide?

    • Sorry, I meant “that’s how”

    • Stephanie,

      Please re-read my posts, and you will see the answer.

      But simply, it is not removing a toenail, or pulling a tooth. It is the killing of a child conceived between a woman AND a man. It is the product of their union, and a growing child.
      Now because it is also the fathers child, his wishes should be considered by any legislation.

      The reason the woman cannot be the adjudicator is because she is not objective or independent, just as the victims of crime cannot be the judges in their own cases. To protect both parties, someone independent would be the best way to be objective.

    • Sounds like your just another selfish man trying to control things and keep the power for yourself. I have been in that position myself, it wasn’t my decision. It was her decision and I respect that.

    • Declan,

      As I said above, if both parties agree, like you did then there is no problem, and I am not against abortion. I’m glad it worked out for you and your partner.

      I was broadening the discussion to debate the situation when the father does not want the child aborted. This is a legitimate point, and an important consideration.
      Im sure you can see why this is a problem, do you think the father should be ignored? If so why? Does it depend on the mothers reasons? Are there good reasons / bad reasons, what are they. Lets talk about it and act like intelligent people.

      Your wild unsupported accusations and buzzwords “control” and “power” and “selfishness” are irrational and make no sense.

      I can understand you supporting your partner no matter what, and it is a credit to you, I’m sure I would do the same.

      However considering a situation where both parent disagree, is not mutually exclusive to that.

    • Hey Googletacking

      Se that complecatd enough but lets add another varable, are the couple married? Of course un-maried perternaty rights in this country are also shockling bad, so we are going to have to say that No his views would not be taken seriously.

      Lets say they have opposing views, views that will never meet in the middle (after all you can’t have half a baby)
      If the woman wants the child and the man doesn’t – does she have to go through a forced abortion?
      Or does she have the child and he has to pay some form of child support, for the rest of his life. And if we assume he is not a complete monster (as I figure most men won’t be) he is dealing with his lack of rights over his child for the rest of his life also

      Or say the Woman doesn’t want the baby and the man does – Does she have to be forced to carry and have the child. Does she resent the child? have PND? Under constant threat that the man might leave her with a child she never wanted in the first place.
      now I know you are disagreeing with the term “forced pregnancy” which actually I see your point. But it is a kind of force for her NOT to take the action that she wants to take.

      But it all comes down to that most hateful word “options” at least a couple can talk about theirs if it was avaliable in Ireland.

    • Cheers DoctorWho

      All good points, marriage situation especially. I dont have the answers but think mediation, with independent adjudication would be a serious contender.

      Reading all the post here it seems obvious to me it boils down to a single dogma, whether or not it is valid I am not convinced.

      The dogma seems to be “It is the womans body and she has the right to do whatever she wants to it”
      I can understand the basis for this, but there seems to be lots of obvious holes in this assertion.
      For example, does the growing foetus constitute part of the womans body? I would say because it is genetically different and an individual, therefore it does not.

      Also it is the offspring of the both parents, therefore each has a duty of care and responsibility towards it, just as fathers must pay maintenance, even when then are kept from seeing their own kids.

      To boil it down to such simple dogmas, are obvious ploys to shut down discussion and debate. Common sense can inform anyone of that.

      The right to bodily integrity, prevents anyone performing proceedures against your will, it is not a right to do whatever you want to your own body. Just consider euthanasia as a simple example (however I would be in favour, I use it as an example to counter claims that you can do whatever you want to you own body.)

      It is clear the debate needs a lot more attention, and to be broadened, and minds to also be broadened beyond narrow dogma

      Thx

    • Well, most people who support a woman’s right to bodily integrity DO support a right to euthanasia and so it is entirely consistent to believe that you should be able to do whatever you want with your body. What people are saying when we say “a woman’s right to her body” is that her rights over her own body take precedence to anyone else’s rights which involve her body. It is an consistent philosophy.

      And your point about support is interesting. Surely you can also argue that without consent of both parents, then there should be an abortion, rather than subject one parent to parental responsibilities, including support, they have not sought.

  • Smoking during pregnancy is harmful to babies development and a lot of people have strong views about it, people are quieter on the subject of abortion but abortion destroys a baby altogether and has long term psychological effects on its mother. It’s not a baby’s fault that it’s life has started. There are so many couples desperate for a baby in this country that could fill football pitches, perhaps we should consider adoption as a good alternative. The baby survives, a couple are made the happiest they’ve ever been, the mother can feel relieved.

    • Rob 21/08/12 #

      you’re not comparing like with like i’m afraid Deirdre.

      Smoking causes damage to the baby – so it is seen as selfish or crazy to behave in a way during pregnancy that will harm the child for life.

      Abortion is completely different – this is the question of whether the baby is wanted at all!

      Agree with you re the adoption point – but again surely this is a matter for the mother to decide??

    • There are so many children in care already. The reason it’s hard to adopt is onerous procedures rather than not enough children. And even if there wasn’t, womrn like hazel should not be forced to stay pregnant for adoption purposes.

    • Abortion terminates the beginnings of a life… true, that’s the physics of it, that’s where the argument should begin and end.
      The mental stability of the women involved is not the topic for debate.
      Not ALL women involved are psychologically effected. In fact most women who have come to this decision through free choice are not damaged in anyway physically or mentally. There is no stats that prove other wise. This side of the debate is a crock, an emotive leverage to increase the fear of abortion.

    • Abortion terminates the beginnings of a life… true, that’s the physics of it, that’s where the argument should begin and end.
      The mental stability of the women involved is not the topic for debate.
      Not ALL women involved are psychologically effected. In fact most women who have come to this decision through free choice are not damaged in anyway physically or mentally. There is no stats that prove other wise. This side of the debate is a crock, an emotive leverage to increase the fear of abortion.

    • reds 21/08/12 #

      I’m not too sure how I feel on this topic.

      Although abortion would never be an option for me in regular circumstances, who are we to say that the child should be born to parents who aren’t in a position to have them or care for them.

      I don’t think that adoption should be even mentioned as an alternative though as there are enough children are in foster care and looking to be adopted right now.

      Surely it’s better to think of the children that are already looking for a good home rather than adding to the list before a foetus has even developed?

      Although I feel sorry for anyone who has ever had one and since regretted it, my heart bleeds for the children who’s parent couldn’t have one and the children have been left to suffer with parents who are junkies, children constantly moved to different “homes” etc.

      Sometimes you have to make tough decisions, and it may be one you would choose differently later in life but that’s how life goes and you just have to learn from them…

    • @Lenny, I know not all women are affected, but a friend of mine who had an abortion has had a terrible time living with it, It truly broke my heart that she made the decision as someone who thinks life is so precious but I love and care about her so I have to have sympathy for her well being. So I have to disagree with your point that “This side of the debate is a crock, an emotive leverage to increase the fear of abortion”, based on my perception of what she went and is going through, even after counselling. If I can help prevent anyone else having to go through what she went through I will.

    • Surely the option then is to provide better pre-abortion services in Ireland? Ensure women are happy with their decision? Not take away the decision of all women, most of whom feel they made the right choice? I think it would also help women who do feel unsure about their decision to not see ads claiming that it tears their life apart, even women who didn’t have any regrets may see these ads and wonder if there is something wrong with them because they’re fine with it.

  • People who support “pro-life” legislation do so because they feel a woman DOES NOT have the right to choose their convenience over another persons life; the baby’s life is that of an individual deserving of the right to live no matter how they were conceived, and so, by law they wish to protect that baby. Pro-life is not anti-woman, it’s pro-baby’s right to life.

    Having an abortion because of rape is the same as George punching molly in the face and then Molly stepping on Rodney’s toes! Makes no sense. These laws are there to protect a life which deserves protection (in most pro-lifers opinions, I think).

    • We protect a person’s right to bodily integrity don’t we? Why should pregnant women be the exception? Why does a woman have to sacrifice her right to bodily integrity in the name of the rights of someone else? If the government is allowed to sacrifice her right in the name of the right to life of another person why is this different from forced blood donation? Forced organ donation? Should she not be allowed to sacrifice that right voluntarily?

    • Also I think implying that the decision is made for ‘convenience’ is extremely dismissive of the wide variety of reasons that women have for terminating a pregnancy. Mental health issues, financial issues, relationship issues, the need to care for other children etc. etc. Very few women wake up thinking “Meh, don’t feel like being pregnant right now, off to the abortionist I go!”

    • So @shelby what are you saying? Do you agree with the current law or think there should be a change?

    • @Stephanie ‘Very few women wake up thinking “Meh, don’t feel like being pregnant right now, off to the abortionist I go!”

      Absolutely correct. The tone of some of the posts above give the impression that abortion is an ‘easy’ choice, that is simply not true.

    • Oh. That’s nice. You’re skeptical because you just…don’t think it’s true? Or you have alternative figures based on hospital reports, mortality ratesm sociological studies?

  • Your use the word, Luxury and cancel like its nothing, just something that has to be done if a woman doesnt want a child. Go speak to women who have had abortions and ask them about ‘Canceling their pregnancies’ and would they like to have the ‘Luxury’ of having an abortion and see what they tell you.

    My advice is grow up!

    • I find it interesting that you want to protect the rights of a child but will pick apart a young adult’s own, valid opinion rather than engage with him on a mature level…

      Nubus makes a valid point, that at the very least each and every woman should have a choice. No advocation, no pre-determined fate, all that is being offered is a choice. And yes in circumstances were this is denied it would be correctly seen as a luxury. Stop with the hysterical, emotive nonsense.

  • “I have absolutely no right to force my decision on anyone else. None.” Isn’t that what abortion is – forcing my

    choice on the unborn baby growing inside me? In reality, there are at least 2 people affected by the decision to

    have an abortion. The baby and the mother. Instead of pushing abortion to be legalised, make it easier for Irish

    people to adopt. Actively promote adoption to suitable parents and get rid of the obnoxious red tape that cuttently

    exists. If the mother chooses to raise the baby, give her the support she needs to be to provide for herself and

    her baby with dignity. If she has bee raped, provide professional counselling to help her heal emotionally and

    medical care to heal physically.Abortion is not a cure all. It is a desperate act carried out by women who feel they

    have no other alternatives. Women deserve better.

  • Instead of the death penalty for the baby what about the death penalty for the rapist?

    • Why is abortion only equated with Rape. The reasons for abortion are wide and varied. The debate is about choice.

    • Not very pro life of you. All rapists are former foetuses. Do you think someone should have aborted them?

      Of course, if the rapist was going to require a blood transfusion from the woman for 9 months, would you force her to do it?

  • When comes to a situation like this or if a baby won’t survive past birth then it’s understandable but that would be it.

    • John Im guessing your anti abortion by that remark & who are you to set the rules. We need these services in Ireland.

    • Yea we need it for what I said above. What else are they really needed for?n

    • We need it for women to be able to make the choice. Thats the role of a modern society to offer choices.

    • They baby doesn’t get a choice about whether it lives or dies?

    • John I doubt you have much experience of abortion. I would hazard a guess on your views on stem cell research aswell & I will also take a shot at the fact these particular issues are motivated by your faith.

    • So if the ‘baby’ deserve a choice, why are you ok with abortion after rape? Makes it sound like your real goal is to punish women for being sexually active.

    • No John, indeed, a baby doesn’t get a choice about whether it lives or dies. But that goes for every baby in this world. You did not choose to be born and you probably won’t choose to die. So that reason is irrelevant.

    • Completely wrong on everything you say. 1) I got the boat some years ago with my girlfriend and there is not single day that goes by when I don’t think about the look in her eyes when she came out. The both of us know we done the wrong thing and have to live with it for the rest of our lifes. 2) I think steam cell research is a great thing and the embryoes cant grow into children. 3) The thing I love about lefties the most…… When someone doesnt agree with them on a subject like this you say its because of religious views. I hate to shatter your dream that I dont like the subject because of a god.

    • @John, I know what you mean as I had a similar experience with a past girlfriend.
      However, I still believe people should be free to make a choice.

    • Mjhint 21/08/12 #

      Im not a lefty so Ill have to apologise to you for my remarks. We share the same experiences however my outcome was positive. I believe the decision saved my life.

    • Nick I say that because in that case there can be a serious concern for the womens wellbeing. Yea I really hate sexually active women because they were not the main reason I used to go out at weekends.

    • Plenty of men who dislike women have sex with them. Plenty of misogynists who hate women have one night stand.

      And you’re right, there’s a small minority who regret having an abortion and I’m truly sorry you were one of them.
      It just seems a bit cruel that since you made a decision you regret, you would deny other couples (the majority of who don’t regret it) the right to make a fully informed decision.

    • It it not the case that if you are raped you can stop any pregnancy from staking place. I know it has been done for nurses.

    • ?

    • John, you say “…I really hate sexually active women because they were not the main reason I used to go out at weekends.”

      I assume you really hate sexually active men aswell.

    • Damian you’re an idiot. Read it again and think.

    • John, so why is it that it was perfectly okay for you and your girlfriend to make the decision to have an abortion, but it’s not okay for anyone else to make that decision? Why is it one rule for you and another for anyone else? What made the reasons for your abortion more justified than anyone elses?

    • I’m an idiot?

      John, your exact words were “Yea I really hate sexually active women because they were not the main reason I used to go out at weekends.”

      So how am i an idiot? Maybe you need to have your memory and eyesight checked.

      And i’m willing to bet not all women go out to be harrassed by drunken male idiots either.

  • Ireland needs to treat women as adults, let them choose and support there choice,
    pay unmarried mothers allowance , pay for their abortions, chase men to pay child support,
    are you sure you want Ireland to treat woman as adults

  • @Nick –

    I don’t advocate solely for the woman or solely for the unborn child simply because there is no need to pit one against the other. A truly pro-life society can cater for the needs of both. This is the case in Ireland, where doctors treat pregnant women as if they have two patients – one that they can see and one that they cannot. Both are human and deserving of protection.

    This is contrary to the position of many advocates of abortion who do not ascribe any rights to the unborn child. In countries like the UK ,this attitude has led to a situation where abortion is available on demand.

    • Except that often, for the woman, the best thing for her is not to continue with a pregnancy. And you would force her to make a decision which would make her unhappy.

    • Do you give any rights to the unborn child at all Nick?

    • Yes. I believe a foetus has the right to all necessary medical care outside a woman’s body. I simply don’t believe it has the right to live off a woman without her specific and continuing consent.

    • medred 22/08/12 #

      thats like a kidney donor asking for his kidney back

    • That’s going on the implied consent model – the idea that by having sex, even if a woman says “I don’t want to be pregnant”, she’s consenting against her will to pregnancy.

      But yes, if women had to sign paperwork, deal with a waiting period and have a medical exam before becoming pregnant, you’d have a decent arguement!

    • medred 22/08/12 #

      Great before anyone has sex with you they best sign a contract or else they are a rapist

      To me killing is not acceptable what a selfish attitiude you have nick

    • Nope. They just have to ask if it’s what I want. Are you not a believer in making sure women consent, Medred?

    • medred 22/08/12 #

      oh straw man and ad hominem in one well done

    • And no offence, but I think someone who considers himself the most oppressed group in Ireland (yeah! straight white men have it so much worse than travellers or asylum seekers) and is busy playing the world’s smallest violin all over the Journal when there are a lot of people much more oppressed than you? No room to talk about selfishness!

    • medred 23/08/12 #

      Traveller are pretty rich bt the way and are also white men of a working class background

      Asylum seekers like we treat them badly

    • “Traveller are pretty rich bt the way and are also white men of a working class background” Funny, I thought 50% of travellers were women? Why do you think of men when you think of travellers? 10% are also gay, so no, they’re not all straight white men. And they’re not rich. They have higher illiteracy rates, worse health and a lower average income than the rest of the native Irish population (but you read health reports, so you knew that, right?)

      And funny, I comment all the time on Journal articles about the oppressions faced by asylum seekers. Have never seen you there. I’m just saying to stop being so selfish and maybe actually campaign for other people than yourself.

    • medred 23/08/12 #

      Really strange I know a lot of wealthy travellers tahnks for your sterotyping and yes I am proud to say ireland treats asylum seekers well better than any other country

      And yes some travellers also terrorise town again nick doesnt think personal responsibility is important

      I grew up here you didnt

    • Really? Please explain how Ireland treats asylum seekers better than Sweden. Complete with referencing.

      And noting that travellers have a lower average income is not a stereotype. It’s measuring a demonstrable trend.

      No way did you grow up in Ireland, and if you did, you didn’t know it. You don’t know working class women who want abortions, you’re not aware of the failings of the Irish asylum system and you only know rich travellers.

      But hey, keep playing the violin. Poor, poor oppressed Medred.

    • medred 23/08/12 #

      displacing your hatred towards white workingcalss irish men is called displacement

      Yes I am oppressed by people like you

      people like you ruin ireland

    • “people like you ruin ireland”
      rather over emotive and nothing sentence there, Medred!!

  • @Nick -

    The Irish Contraception and Crisis Pregnancy Study 2010 (ICCP 2010), produced by the HSE’s Crisis Pregnancy Programme (CPP) found that 44% of women expressed varying degrees of regret about their abortions.

    The study showed that 31pc of women who had abortion experienced “some regrets”, with 13pc reporting that they experienced “a lot of regrets”. This represents an increase from 2003, when 22pc reported experiencing some regret, with 11pc saying they had a lot of regrets.

    Of course, this does not mean that every woman who has an abortion will suffer from PAS, but it does mean that nearly half of them are prepared to admit to feelings of regret. It also means that we should not discount their feelings when they have been brave enough to talk about their personal experiences. To do otherwise is arrogant and anti-feminist. True feminism listens to all women.

    There are a number of peer reviewed studies which have now shown that women who have abortions are up to 30pc more likely to experience subsequent mental health problems. This is even after those studies controlled for women with pre-existing mental health conditions. If we are serious about having an honest and open debate about abortion, then we need to accept this reality and stop denying the existence of PAS for many women.

    • PAS does not exist, this has been proven. I don’t deny that some women experience regrets, that’s true and we shouldn’t ignore it. But the solution is not to ban abortion for everybody. It means we should provide better post and pre-abortion counselling. It means we should strive for better continuity of care, one of the most obvious ways to do this is to have abortion services available here.

      You point out that we should take into account the women who regretted it, but equally you must take into account the women who didn’t. Why shouldn’t abortion be available to them?

    • And did they say they regretted having the abortion and wish they didn’t have it? No. And do you think the problems surrounding shaming and prejudice against women who require abortions comes into play? CAn you put a link up to this study please?

      Again, please see below.

      Although some women experienced adverse psychological after effects after abortion, the great majority did not. In contrast, refused abortion often resulted in psychological distress for the mother and an impoverished environment for the ensuing offspring.
      (APA – Handy, J. A. (1982). Psychological and social aspects of induced abortion. British Journal Of Clinical Psychology, 21(1), 29-41.)

      Many women denied abortion show ongoing resentment that may last for years, while children born when the abortion is denied have broadly based difficulties in social, interpersonal, and occupational functions that last at least into early adulthood.
      (APA – Dagg, P. K. (1991). The psychological sequelae of therapeutic abortion—denied and completed. The American Journal Of Psychiatry, 148(5), 578-585)

    • Selective cutting and pasting is not an argument, it this context it is at best proof texting.

    • I would be surprised if most women didn’t regret a crisis pregnancy and having to make a tough decision. But the right to make the best decision for you includes making a very difficult decision where you consider the “what ifs”.

      Women are adults. Most make the best decision for them.

    • medred 22/08/12 #

      Yes women are adults and like adult men should be held responsible for their actions

    • An abortion is taking responsibility. It is facing the consequences of your actions.

    • medred 22/08/12 #

      killing a fetus is taking reponsibility

      I dont think you understand what responsibility is

    • I have a better source for criticisms of them! Scientologists! They love that stuff. You and Tom, Medred!

  • I am so sorry to read about the horrific experiences that the writer went through in her life. No-one should have to endure such abuse and it is good to see that she is in a place where she can talk about her life with such honesty.

    The situation of pregnancy following rape is one which will cause us to ask the most difficult questions. At first abortion may seem like the “quick-fix” solution but in fact it may cause problems for the woman in the long term. Abortion will not remove trauma experienced in the aftermath of rape. It will not return the victim to her emotional state prior to the rape. On the contrary, it is another act of violence perpetrated against her.

    Add to that the increasing stories from groups like Rachel’s Vineyard and Women Hurt showing that abortion has a negative effect on women. These testimonies cannot be ignored if we are to reach a genuine way of helping women going through this terrible experience.

    At the same time, we cannot forget the unborn child. He/she bears no guilt for the crimes of the rapist and his/her life should not be ended unjustly in this way. We know from advances in medical science like 4D ultrasounds that there can be no doubt but that the unborn child is a human being. All of the necessary human DNA is present from conception. Abortion is a negative experience – for the woman, her baby and society at large.

    If we want to genuinely address the terrible trauma caused by rape – compounded by pregnancy at the worst time imaginable – then we need to seriously take on board the experience of women who have suffered from Post-Abortive Stress. We need to recognise that abortion is not a solution but very often makes a difficult situation even worse. A truly compassionate society will accept this fact and offer more in the way of real support than abortion.

    From the comments above, it is also worth noting that abortion is never necessary to save the life of a woman. Women in Ireland don’t die because abortion is illegal here. The position at present is that when doctors are treating a pregnant woman, they are aware that they have a duty of care to two patients – the woman herself, and her unborn child. If she needs treatment for some condition and they have a choice of treatments, they will choose the one which will (a) cure the mother and (b) give the unborn child the best chance of survival.

    If it is the case that the only treatment available is one which will bring about an end to the life of the unborn child, then they will have no option but to administer that treatment anyway. In those cases, the death of the unborn child is tragic, unintentional and regrettable – which can be contrasted with an abortion where none of those adjectives would apply as the death of the unborn child is the sole intention.

    • Stories from Rachel’s Vineyard and Women Hurt represent a minority experience which only describe 15% of Irish women who have abortions.

      Why do you not mention that the CPS found most women are glad they had access to abortion?

    • I was wondering how long it would take for the Youth Defense/Cóir/Life Institute/Life Zone spin doctor to arrive.

      You give ‘post-abortive stress’ capital letters, presumably to imply that such a condition exists. It doesn’t. Post abortion syndrome is a myth. Abortion sometimes makes a difficult decisions worse. Not always. Your persistent use of the phrase ‘some’

      Abortion is only an act of violence against the woman if she has not consented to it. If she has consented to it, it is a medical procedure. By your logic all surgical interventions are assaults. Abortion does not remove the trauma but it can certainly reduce the potential trauma. Many rape victims want to have an abortion, many who have an abortion do not regret it. Why is it ok to deny them that on the basis that a small minority regretted it? I feel for those women that do, truly I do. I wish there was something that could have been done to prevent them regretting it. Maybe if they didn’t have to board a plane like a criminal, maybe if they didn’t have to face billboards telling them they made a terrible decision, maybe if they were able to get the abortion in a local clinic where they could go home to the comfort of their own home and their family. Maybe if their pre-abortion counselling wasn’t marred by worries of how to pay for a flight, whether or not their passport is in date, the entire experience would be less distressing. Maybe if they had the option of a medical abortion rather than a surgical procedure (pretty much discounted for most Irish women because of the need to travel).

      It’s also worth noting that your second paragraph is almost word for word what used to be hosted on the life zone website until it was hastily removed this morning.

      Women also don’t live in Ireland because abortion is legal here, Mali has the exact same abortion laws as us and has one of the worst maternal mortality rates in the world. The ECHR ruling on the C case showed that patient care does suffer because of our murky abortion laws and our lack of legislation. Also Sweden is ahead of Ireland in terms of maternal mortality and they have very liberal abortion laws.

    • medred 22/08/12 #

      Post abortive stress does exist just because you deny it doesnt mean it deosnt exist like denying a fetus is alive does not make it inanimate

    • Please see below for PROOF that you are wrong. Completely wrong. Please use scientific evidence when making statements about situations you do not understand and have not been through, and women you do not know. There is no such thing as post abortion syndrome, if there was it would be listed in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition (DSM-IV). This is used by all psychiatrists and medical doctors. You can get it in a library.

      The only consistent predictor of mental disorders after abortion remains pre-existing disorders, which, in turn, are strongly associated with exposure to sexual abuse and intimate violence. (Harvard Review of Psychiatry. 2009;17(4):268-90)

      Although some women experienced adverse psychological after effects after abortion, the great majority did not. In contrast, refused abortion often resulted in psychological distress for the mother and an impoverished environment for the ensuing offspring.
      (APA – Handy, J. A. (1982). Psychological and social aspects of induced abortion. British Journal Of Clinical Psychology, 21(1), 29-41.)

      Policies based on the notion that later abortions (because of fetal anomaly) harm women’s mental health are unwarranted. Because research suggests that most women who have later abortions do so for reasons other than fetal anomaly. (APA -Steinberg, J. R. (2011). Later abortions and mental health: Psychological experiences of women having later abortions—A critical review of research. Women’s Health Issues, 21(3, Suppl), S44-S48.)

      Oh, and also – lack of abortion access is the most damaging thing to women with unwanted pregnancies. FACT. They WILL avail of abortion whether it is legal or not, so by trying to keep it illegal you are only hurting women. Therefore it could be concluded, very simply, that the pro-life movement in Ireland does not care about women AT ALL.

      Restrictive abortion laws are not associated with lower abortion rates. (APA – Sedgh, G., Singh, S., Shah, I. H., Åhman, E., Henshaw, S. K., & Bankole, A. (2012). Induced abortion: Incidence and trends worldwide from 1995 to 2008. The Lancet, 379(9816), 625-632.)

      Conclusions: Supporting a woman’s abortion decision-making process, addressing the division of labor between women and men regarding pregnancy prevention, abortion and childrearing, and offering nonjudgmental support may guide interventions designed to reduce emotional distress after abortion. Experiencing decisional autonomy or social support reduced respondents’ emotional distress.
      (APA – Kimport, K., Foster, K., & Weitz, T. A. (2011). Social sources of women’s emotional difficulty after abortion: Lessons from women’s abortion narratives. Perspectives On Sexual And Reproductive Health, 43(2), 103-109)

      Many women denied abortion show ongoing resentment that may last for years, while children born when the abortion is denied have broadly based difficulties in social, interpersonal, and occupational functions that last at least into early adulthood.
      (APA – Dagg, P. K. (1991). The psychological sequelae of therapeutic abortion—denied and completed. The American Journal Of Psychiatry, 148(5), 578-585)

      “In countries where legal abortion is restricted, many unwanted pregnancies are carried to term. This study investigated the common mental disorders (CMDs) of depression and anxiety in the third trimester of pregnancy in women who wanted or had attempted an abortion in a poor region of Brazil. CONCLUSIONS: This study found that attempting an abortion in the current pregnancy was associated with CMDs. Good access to family planning programs, including access to contraceptive methods and safe abortion, should help to improve the mental health of women” –
      Common mental disorders in late pregnancy in women who wanted or attempted an abortion. – Psychological medicine 2010 Sep; 40(9): 1467-73

      “Despite the increase in effective and safe methods of contraception and the distribution of information about these methods, unwanted pregnancy is still a problem in some societies. Induced abortion is a common procedure throughout the world and at least half of more than 45 million induced abortions which happen in a year are performed under unsafe circumstances. Unsafe abortions carry a high risk of maternal mortality and morbidity, accounting for more than 80,000 maternal deaths per year. Four consequences of women’s experiences of illegal abortion were identified: physical, psychological, socio-political and judicial. In some other developing countries intentional abortion, except for some special cases, is illegal because of social and religious beliefs. In these countries, offering services and support to women with unwanted pregnancies seems to be the best solution for reducing or preventing illegal abortion”
      Journal of advanced nursing 2012 Jun; 68(6): 1247-55

    • medred 22/08/12 #

      The ICD 10 DSM IV are for use by the medical profession not the public same goes for studies you need the background knowlege.
      Like>.. Oxford Handbook of Psychiatry
      There is an increase in pyschriatric morbidity with 50% of women experiencing an adjustment disorder (which is in both the iCD 10 nd DSM -IV)

      Refer to layman text please

    • The ICD 10 DSM IV are for use by the medical profession not the public same goes for studies you need the background knowlege.
      Like>.. Oxford Handbook of Psychiatry
      There is an increase in pyschriatric morbidity with 50% of women experiencing an adjustment disorder (which is in both the iCD 10 nd DSM -IV)

      Refer to layman text please”

      I don’t understand why you are dismissing the DSM. Because it’s the actual medical journal that lists and describes all VALID mental illnesses, so why you are dismissing it? I’ve used it in the past for research, it’s written in laymans terms.

      Can you give me scientific evidence of your statement regarding that !There is an increase in pyschriatric morbidity with 50% of women experiencing an adjustment disorder (which is in both the iCD 10 nd DSM -IV)”

      And show me the studies that link adjustment disorder and abortion?

      Also, I accept that for whatever strange reason you would rather use the Oxford Handbook, so can you point to me where this mentions the mythical post-abortion syndrome?

    • medred 22/08/12 #

      the DSM and ICD are for experts to use you have basic education
      If I want to learn phsyics I dont buy a book on college physics first I learn the basics

      Thats why I think you should use a entry level psychiatry text book

    • Medred, any entry level book that mentions a mental illness has to refer to DMS. If it is not in the DMS then it is not classed as a mental illness or disorder. This is irrelevant. I don’t need to use a more entry level source for the facts to remain the same. There is no such thing as post-abortion syndrome.

      Can you answer my above questions please?

    • medred 22/08/12 #

      Its adjustment disorder and its called the diagnostic and statistical manual DSM not DMS

    • You accept that there is no such thing as post abortion syndrome then, and are instead now referring to adjustment disorder.

      Ok. So where is the evidence that adjustment disorder has got anything to do with abortion?

    • medred 22/08/12 #

      I am not repeating myself buy a entry level textbook like I stated above and it’ll explain it nicely to you

    • That’ll be a no then. No evidence. Talking nonsense. Goodnight.

    • medred 22/08/12 #

      Need to work on your interpretative skills before you look at those journals

  • @Stephanie –

    It is disappointing that your first comment to me has to do with a complaint about groups that I have no connection with.

    For the record, I am the Deputy Chairperson of the Pro-Life Campaign and am not affiliated with any of the groups mentioned. Not that it should matter – abortion is something which affects society at such a deep level that everyone is entitled to have an opinion regardless of where they stand.

    In the same vein, your comments regarding the Life Zone website don’t mean anything to me I’m afraid. I don’t read that website so I have no idea what it may have said.

    All surgical interventions are not violent acts, but abortion certainly is. It cuts the natural act of pregnancy short. The woman involved will need time to heal physically as well as psychologically. For these reasons alone I do not think it is an appropriate response to rape. It is certainly an act of violence where the unborn child is concerned.

    I think it’s time we accepted the reality of Post-Abortion Stress/Trauma. I would suggest that you read the testimonies of women who have suffered from this very real condition. It is dismissive and hurtful to call their experience “a myth” (leaving aside for a second the inconsistencies of your argument, where you later accept that “a small minority” do regret their abortion). The women’s experience overwhelmingly speaks of their difficulty in coming to terms with the fact that they themselves were suffering from PAS. The constant messages in the media and from their family and friends were that there was nothing to feel in any way traumatised about. Many report that they felt they would be letting down those people who supported them in their abortion if they reported any negative feelings about it. It is for this reason that we have to be particularly careful in our recognition of PAS. Women should feel entirely comfortable in coming forward with their experiences.

    All the more disappointing then, that the National Womens’ Council of Ireland chose to describe the outreach campaign organised by WomenHurt last year as “cruel”. The NWCI is a tax-funded organisation, intended to support all women in the country. It certainly failed on that occasion.

    The constant bashing of our medical profession in the area of maternal health is undeserved and amounts to nothing more than an attempt to convince people that there is some medical necessity for the introduction of abortion to this country. There is none. Our doctors are doing an excellent job in their care of pregnant women and their babies, as recognised by the World Health Organisation – a group who can probably be relied upon to do their homework before issuing any statistics.

    • medred 22/08/12 #

      The NWCI fails at everything
      A hate group with a vicitm feminist agenda that hates men while being funded in part by taxes paid by men
      Thats Oppresion Nick …. advocate for me

    • Proof Cora please. None? Ok, well here’s proof that shows you are wrong.

      The only consistent predictor of mental disorders after abortion remains pre-existing disorders, which, in turn, are strongly associated with exposure to sexual abuse and intimate violence. (Harvard Review of Psychiatry. 2009;17(4):268-90)

      Although some women experienced adverse psychological after effects after abortion, the great majority did not. In contrast, refused abortion often resulted in psychological distress for the mother and an impoverished environment for the ensuing offspring.
      (APA – Handy, J. A. (1982). Psychological and social aspects of induced abortion. British Journal Of Clinical Psychology, 21(1), 29-41.)

      Many women denied abortion show ongoing resentment that may last for years, while children born when the abortion is denied have broadly based difficulties in social, interpersonal, and occupational functions that last at least into early adulthood.
      (APA – Dagg, P. K. (1991). The psychological sequelae of therapeutic abortion—denied and completed. The American Journal Of Psychiatry, 148(5), 578-585)

      Although some women experienced adverse psychological after effects after abortion, the great majority did not. In contrast, refused abortion often resulted in psychological distress for the mother and an impoverished environment for the ensuing offspring.
      (APA – Handy, J. A. (1982). Psychological and social aspects of induced abortion. British Journal Of Clinical Psychology, 21(1), 29-41.)

    • Well Cora, in the absence of any real argument the ad hominem fallacy works, trying to link you to organizations that people consider extreme is shallow and fallacious. There is little concentration on refuting your actual points. Keep it up, our unborn and their mothers need people like you who will speak the truth.

    • medred 22/08/12 #

      So whats your point better to kill than to let them be at a statistically increased risk of mental morbidity?

      Again quoting studies you dont understand
      do the same for a renal failure patient see how well you’ll treat them?
      You need the background first

    • & Bebhin, cutting and pasting is not analysis. You are not a mental health professional, stop trying to act as if you are.

    • I find it remarkable that you think anyone is falling for that line that you have nothing to do with those organisations. The life zone website is linked with the Life Institute, the group that commissioned a survey you were very vocal in supporting not too long ago.

      Women need time to heal physically and psychologically after giving birth as well, considerably longer than for medical abortion too.

      Cora, PAS is not a thing. There is no reality of it. The AMA, the BMJ and a whole host of psychiatric institutions have said that it is not a thing. It does not exist, it has no reality. Sorry, what constant messages that they shouldn’t feel bad? Because there’s been a nationwide campaign run for the last few months that says there is, not just to them but also to women who did not feel bad. I never said that their feelings are a myth, if you read the comment you’ll note that I absolutely do not argue that no women have regrets. Any woman I ever counselled during crisis pregnancy was told by me to prepare themselves that they may regret it afterwards. It so happened the women I dealt with didn’t but I would never have considered treating her any differently if she did. I think it’s possible there are people who do and I think that’s wrong but again, that’s not reason enough to ban abortion for all women.

      The WHO have also said that abortion access is important. They also said that “complications of unsafe abortion…can be prevented or dealt with by good post-abortion care”. And that “Pregnancy is not just a matter of waiting to give birth. Often a defining phase in a woman’s life, pregnancy can be a joyful and fulfilling period, for her both as an individual and as a member of society. It can also be one of misery and suffering, when the pregnancy is unwanted or mistimed, or when complications or adverse circumstances compromise the pregnancy, cause ill-health or even death. Pregnancy may be natural, but that does not mean it is problem-free.” ”

      Could you specify which WHO figure you’re referring to? Because if the rate of deaths in child birth, Sweden is ahead of us, and abortion is widely available there. I’ve never once attacked the medical profession in Ireland. I’ve never said they’re bad at caring for their patients. Neither has anyone else. What we have said is that they are not allowed to provide the best possible care. The ECHR ruling determined that the guidelines for treatment of pregnant women with potentially life threatening conditions are unclear. I don’t blame the medical professionals at all for the experience of the C case, I blame the unfair, uninformed rules they are limited by.

      You also haven’t explained why it is ok to deny all women abortion based on the minority that regret it.

    • @Stephanie,

      You are confused. I am not affiliated with the Life Institute, nor with any of the groups you mention. Any comments I may have made on threads relating to abortion are general comments, or have to do with specific campaigns or surveys carried out by the Pro Life Campaign.

      I am glad to hear that you counsel women regarding the strong possibility of PAS in the aftermath of abortion. You have said in an earlier comment that “Post abortion syndrome is a myth”. This is not the message that women who are suffering from regret need to hear. They need to feel that their feelings are welcome, whether they are pro/anti abortion.

      The WHO figures I refer to are their Report from 2010 which places Ireland at the top of the international table for maternal health. I repeat, women are well-cared for in this country while pregnant and our medical profession is to be commended. The WHO is correct when it states that pregnancy can be a time of worry when facilities are poor – in countries like Africa but certainly not in Ireland where any suggestion that women should be fearful while pregnant amounts to little more than scaremongering.

    • It’s not a possibility because it doesn’t exist. I advised women that there was a slight possibility that they might regret it afterwards, not that there was a strong possibility. Just as I advise my patients that there is a slight possibility they may have a bad reaction to kinesio tape when I advise its application.

      You’ll note again that I said PAS is a myth, which it is, not that the feelings they experience are a myth. And if we’re going to argue this can we not split the thread? It confuses things.

      Did I say women should be fearful while pregnant? Let’s review, no, no I didn’t. Has anyone said all women should be fearful when pregnant? Let’s review, no, no they haven’t. I don’t think pregnant women SHOULD be anything. I acknowledged the fact that pregnancy can be a distressing time for women. Just as you acknowledge that abortion is not always a stressful time for women. Would you also mind giving me the full title (a link would be great) of that report, I haven’t read it and I’d like to.

  • whilst my view is that it should never be considered as a late contraceptive, women should have the right to choose. the satus quo in that travel to another state is required may inform that choice better than dropping into a local clinic. let’s leave it as it is

  • I guess I’ll put my two cents in on this whole Abortion thing, I think there is one acception to abortion, and thats if the mothers life is at risk of having this baby. Other than that you can’t ignore the fact that when you are having sexual intercourse you take the responsibilty of possibly having a child.

    • But in this day and age, there’s no need to for sex to result in pregnancy. Why do you think it should have to?

    • So rape isn’t an acceptable circumstance? Or serious but not life threatening illness? What if the pregnancy would shorten her lifespan? What if she has to take certain medications for an existing condition but those have abortive effects? What about her mental health? What if she has six other children? What if she is already having trouble caring for them? What if the child has an abnormality incompatible with life outside the womb?

    • You make a fair point ,

  • @Stephanie –

    I do take into account those women who luckily don’t experience PAS. In fact, I am always relieved when I speak to women who have had no adverse side-effects.

    My point is that the evidence weighs against abortion for a number of reasons. We don’t know which women will suffer from PAS so it is an extremely risky thing to advise abortion. The insistence of abortion advocates to deny the existence of PAS only makes it more unlikely that a comprehensive study into the effects of abortion will be carried out – something which is sorely needed in this debate.

    The hidden human in this entire discussion is the unborn child. It is up to those who are advocating the introduction of abortion to set out what rights, if any, they are prepared to ascribe to the unborn child.

    • It has been carried out. Repeatedly, in numerous countries. Over 40 years. The evidence has been presented to you, REPEATEDLY today. Why are you ignoring this?