TheJournal.ie uses cookies. By continuing to browse this site you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Click here to find out more »
Dublin: 10 °C Thursday 23 May, 2013

Column: Who regulates the ambulance services? You may be surprised…

If you own a dog or even a television you need a license. The same is not true for the ambulance service, writes David Hall.

David Hall

WHO REGULATES THE ambulance service?

That’s an interesting question. In Ireland, ambulance services are provided to the public by the State (via the HSE and Dublin Fire Brigade), and by private operators contracted to the HSE whilst also providing services to private health insurers and event companies. Lifeline Ambulance Service is the largest private ambulance service, of which I am the managing director and owner. Services are also provided by the voluntary ambulance sector (which often covers public events and undertakes routine and emergency ambulance transfers) and the auxiliary ambulance services; other services are provided by the Dublin Airport Authority, the Guinness factory, some pharma companies, etc.

The combined ambulance services treat and transport hundreds of thousands of people each year, throughout Ireland.

Remarkably, with all of these organisations able to treat, and possibly mistreat, a patient, there is no requirement within the State for any ambulance service provider to be regulated or licensed. Indeed there is no regulator. There is no-one ensuring compliance with best operational and clinical practice and there is no independent organisation tasked with ensuring that the patient in the ambulance setting is safe. Anyone can set up and run an ambulance service at the present time.

At this time I’m sure my friends in PHECC [the Pre-Hospital Emergency Care Council] are getting a little excited. The reality is that they are not the regulator. They have statutory responsibility for the establishment and maintenance of a register of practitioners and awarding of clinical practice guideline (CPG) approval to ambulance services, whom they do not even have to inspect in order to award same.

‘The reality is a far cry from this’

As we know, the public tend to look at an ambulance provider, such as those identified above, and presume that they meet specific standards. However, the reality is a far cry from this ideal. If you own a dog or even a television you need a license, but no license is needed to transport sick, injured and vulnerable people.

There is no-one independently and routinely ensuring that staff are appropriately trained or vaccinated, ensuring ambulance staff wear identification clearly stating their qualification. No-one is checking that staff are Garda vetted, no-one checks that the essential equipment carried on an ambulance is serviced as the manufacturer recommends, that drugs are in date, that the vehicle is roadworthy; no-one conducts hygiene inspections…

PHECC have not approached this on a proactive basis, even after having to terminate the CPG approval of a private operator two years ago. This should have been the clearest reason to inspect ALL providers. What are they afraid they might find? I’m very sure that professional ambulance operators have nothing to fear, so who does?

‘Lives are at stake’

There is no independent mechanism to ensure that ambulance staff do not exceed the working time directive, which is obviously a very serious and potentially dangerous issue as people’s health (and possibly lives) are at stake when staff, having worked excessively long hours, are out driving emergency vehicles and treating patients.

PHECC’s own rules state that they may conduct inspections. But in one of the areas where they have jurisdiction they have chosen not to inspect the majority of providers. I wonder are they afraid of what they might find? None of the other ambulance providers in the auxiliary or voluntary field have ever been inspected for CPG approval. Remarkable for an organisation which professes to be the “regulator of EMS in Ireland”.

PHECC is, in my view, not independent and, worse again, has given patients, the public, practitioners, nursing and medical staff a false sense of security with its self-promotion. How independent can a regulator be if it is controlled by the main providers of pre-hospital care? Does a regulator not ensure standards in all aspects of the provision of an ambulance service, and not simply on a piecemeal basis in the areas of CPG guideline approval or maintenance of a register, as important as those areas are?

‘Things are still very unsafe’

I am of the firm opinion that no organisation should be allowed treat or transport patients, and that includes my own company, unless they have been independently inspected and awarded an appropriate license. If anyone does anything wrong there is no obvious, severe sanction at present. So an independent regulator with the ability to remove an organisations license might safeguard patients. Since I commenced campaigning for regulation of the Irish ambulance sector in 2006 things have improved somewhat, but in my view they are still very unsafe.

I believe that for many years the ambulance service has been poorly managed and now the excuse is the current economic climate. Years of reports have been published, conference after conference held, discussion after discussion, often quite secretively. And still we have the service as it currently stands.

I have many friends who work for the HSE; they are all committed to patient care and safety. EMTs, paramedics and advanced paramedic staff throughout the country only want the best for patients. They have for years gone above and beyond the call of duty to ensure that their patients receive the best care possible. I get the sense they are deeply frustrated, as I am.

There is a lot of talk about change but no one is ensuring it happens. No one is answerable to failed policy papers and no independent body exists to regulate patient care and transport providers. It’s time to leave aside cosy relationships and concentrate on introducing an effective regulatory system. This must include severe penalties up to termination of a license for breaches of patient safety issues.

The lack of regulated systems in other areas of our lives has caused great damage to our country. Let’s be mature and have effective regulation of the ambulance service. Those who are doing things professionally have nothing to fear. Let’s get on with it.

David Hall is the managing director of Lifeline. He also works with New Beginning, a group of lawyers, businesspeople and citizens set up to defend citizens facing home repossession.

Read next:

Comments (105 Comments)

  • I’d like to know exactly how David and Lifeline does garda vetting on their foreign ambulance staff, I’m genuinely curious to know how this is carried out.

    Reply
    • Good question. Garda vetting only goes back as far as the person is resident in the state

      Reply
    • The same as everyone else who does it. Garda vetting through garda vetting office and the equivalent in their country or origin . Would you not expect this to have been done by Phecc Prior to being given a pin number? The fact is these challenges have been known about by all organisations and Phecc for 10 years yet nothing has been done. You are missing my point a standard set and verified

      Reply
  • After a busy night shift on an emergency ambulance in Dublin city I have to say I needed a laugh, and this has provided it. I can only comment in regard to the Dublin fire brigade, but I’m sure the same is true for the HSE, I had to pass a gardai vetting before I was employed as did everyone else and I’ve heard of people excluded from selection because they did not pass garda vetting. As for regulation Mr Hall, be careful what you wish for, I’m sure responding to emergency calls would be high priority on a regulatory body’s list. Again, all DFB drivers and I stand to be corrected all HSE drivers are trained and accredited internationally by ROSPA in the UK and have to be recertified regularly (as do all our paramedics by the way), as a company who provides vital organ transplant services and occasional 999 calls who has trained and accredited your drivers to respond to emergencies? Yet they can be seen responding to calls around the country using lights and sirens driving at high speeds. A regulator is not a threat to an ambulance service such as the HSE or the DFB as both are conducted to the highest standards and with utmost professionalism. The same goes for the volunteer services, any I’ve had dealings with in both a professional and personal capacity have always done their service proud. It may weed out any crackpot though, who thinks he can buy a van stick a light on and start transporting patients.

    Reply
    • Simon why is this providing you with a laugh ? It’s good you have to meet standards set and perhaps also the HSE ambulances but was the gentleman’s point that there are other ambulance services too who may not meet your own rigorous standards ? You have nothing to fear if your own service can stand over everything it does.

      Reply
    • Well Celtic Lady I laugh because I find it funny for people to call for regulations and increasing standards when they might not meet those standards. No perhaps about it. Both the DFB an the HSE are subject to very rigorous standards imposed by PHECC on relation to the clinical level the can practice emergency medicine, and pre hospital care of a non emergency nature. Both are subject to some form of discipline code in relation to how they conduct themselves with members of the public on our care. Even most volunteer services are based loosely on a uniform/disciplinary style to encourage a sense of pride and standard in their care weather there is a regulatory body in place or not. I have nothing to fear, as I can stand over everything I do. As do all my colleagues in the DFB and HSE. The “gentlemens” point calls into question how me and me colleagues in pre hospital care conduct ourselves, reference his comment regarding Garda vetting, HSE and DFB vet all applicants without the need of an overlord to tell them to do so. The same cannot be said for private ambulance company’s.

      Reply
    • Simon, your reply is more informative and better written than the original article. Thank you.

      Reply
    • 10% of HSE staff are have Phecc accredited driver training. The point is they not the dfb are required to have it as there is no regulation. That’s my point. An INDEPENDENT body needs to set the standard and inspect to ensure compliance and let’s see who gets a licence. Any steps taken by services such as dfb are welcome but needs to be independently inspected against safe standards.

      Reply
    • Simon check the HSE and dfb numbers who are garda vetted. HSE have confirmed that only 50% of their staff are garda vetted . Check with the dfb and maybe you would let us know tmrw? Not a nod from a local sergeant but garda vetting. Recent recruits have had this done or those who got promotion. Voluntary services not required to be vetted. Phecc have not inspected them for cpg approval. In fact they have after many years only inspected the HSE and dfb for the first time and that report is not available yet. Not every organisation is perfect. Those who have nothing to fear should not have anything to worry about.

      Reply
    • Simon the dfb and HSE are not bound by rigorous standards. They applied to an organistation that they both Controll and were never inspected to confirm the complied until they were forced to . they filled out an application form and got approval. Thats the truth. They have 4 years to ensure the comply beloved they were inspected and when HSE and dfb were inspected a former HSE chief ambulance officer inspected you ! Hello independent !

      Reply
    • Mr Hall has penned an article which may raise a valid point but, it’s as he sees it. Thankfully the journal.ie offers others chance to share a different view. He raises concerns that “There is no-one ensuring compliance with best operational and clinical practice” PHECC set out the strictest of clinical practice guidelines for each individual level of care, from first aid, to advance practitioner level. Also concerns regarding, vaccination and wearing of ID. Again i can only speak for my own service but having worked with HSE staff I believe the same is try for them in that all staff are given proper inoculation and every PHECC member is Issued an ID.

      I’m well aware that there is no one regulating this officially but he leaves out the part that most are regulating themselves and are maintaining high standards in these area’s. Credit where credit is due Mr Hall. As procedures and checks the DFB is ISO 9000 accredited. (I’m not on here beating the DFB drum, but I can’t state facts about other organizations, HSE etc as I’m not 100% on their accreditations and so on, i can only go on my experiences) It’s those experiences working in frontline emergency services withe the HSE and volunteer organizations that I don’t think the picture is as bad as Mr Hall paints it. Yes you do need license to own a dog but to say “lives are at stake” is a bit of a stretch, bordering on inflammatory. Actually it’s more along the lines of chicken licken, “the sky is falling down” and should be regarded as such.

      Reply
    • Simon an independent regulatory inspection would allow everyone show their standing. I’m saying this should apply to all services public, private and voluntary. Assumptions are dangerous lets find out fact.

      Reply
    • As I’ve stated Dave I cannot offer concrete responses to HSE statistics, I can only offer my observations from my dealings through my duties and friends employed within their ranks. As for the DFB, well they may not be required to have it but they still have it. An internationally recognized driver training accreditation. And I’m not gonna say 100% of DFB staff have it ’cause technically there are 9-5 staff that are DFB but don’t deal with frontline, so I’d say it’s more than 10% of HSE staff if you actually took into account who delay with patients and who does not. Again my point regarding this was weather they need an accreditation they have it. Would I be correct in saying that your staff revive no form of emergency vehicle driver training?

      As for numbers regarding Garda vetting I’m 100% that anyone in the last 12 years was subject to it as it was part of my selection process and it wasn’t a wink and a nod from the local Gadraí. How i wish the actual number before this would be made available to me by management, as I know it’s very high, but alas I know it will not be given. As do you Dave but, touché, ya have me there. Volunteer services may not be vetted I’ll have to take your word? But most within their ranks are from professional services which have their own regulations so that also needs to be said.

      The DFB (not sure bout the HSE) are bound by an ISO accreditation. Thats a rigorous standard?? They are bound by PHECC regulations and every PHECC member is subject to a PHECC board of discipline as well as their perspective employers code of conduct. as for who sits on the PHECC council it seemed logical that it would contain members of the countries biggest pre hospital care providers? Accusations of cronyism are made at your own risk there Dave?

      Reply
    • I’ve been quite careful to avoid a public/private issue of this and just want to state clearly I don’t think that has any place here. An independent watchdog is not something I fear as I know me and my colleagues more than meet any standard they will impose. What I will say is that most of your issues in standards are already being met and exceeded and I think a little recognition of that is due Dave.

      Reply
    • Sorry if this reply is out of sequence as I could not find reply after your responses below . Just on the voluntaries that you know how many have CEN ambulances? My my recording there are possible 2 in the entire country? It’s this acceptable to transfer I’ll patients to a and e? Phecc standard says not. Indeed HSE medical director in a memo last week said its not . believe it or not we have a coming interest and I’m not saying any organisation would sail past a proper regulatory inspection but the non existence of one is not acceptable. I beg to differ as I’ve said re Phecc and their effectiveness . Whats the point in having an alleged standard of you did not check if anyone was adhering to it. Re driver training we do a standard driving assessment and all staff have done the class room element of The standard you mentioned and we have contracted the same company the HSE are using. I agree this is not compulsory and it should be. Lifeline has achieved a grade A I hygiene standards but this is not required. This is not judging any organisation this is a call which I’ve been making for 6 years for independent standards and regulation to protect patients and Service providers.

      Reply
    • It can be hard to keep track of alright! Regarding volunteer services and CEN compliance, again I’ll have to take your word on the stats. But given the nature of their service funding is always going to be an issue and CEN ambulances don’t come cheap. My reservations regarding a watchdog for this stem mostly in the area of volunteer services which will suffer heavy casualties (pardon the obvious pun) at the implementation of said regulatory body, leaving a gap in medical over at concerts, large public events, and such gatherings where medical care is provided free of charge to be filled by………………….private ambulance companies! Kinda questions the motives calling for an independent regulator but its just my observation?

      As for PHECC and their alleged standard all I can say is we’re constantly reminded of it and always keeping our skills up because we’re told they can come in at anytime??

      As an experienced driver of fire and ambulance appliances it’s a bit un settling to know that your drivers have only completed a classroom element? The skills needed to successfully navigate an emergency vehicle with crew and patient, possibly of a critical nature can hardly be conveyed in a classroom? As most who have driven an emergency vehicle to a life threatening situation will attest, it’s extremely stressful and requires an amount of skill and knowledge that surely requires more than a lecture? I would agree with you it should be a compulsory element.

      As far as hygiene fair play to lifeline for achieving a high standard, credit where credit is due.

      Reply
    • Don’t be unsettled Simon about the driving all my vehicles are fitted with tracking devices and blue light activation with very strict rules around their usage. In addition 20% of your HSE colleagues have the driver training program complete and they are a front line Service which my company is not. Our standard exceeds what’s required for patient transport.

      Reply
    • I’d still have my reservations Dave. Though you may exceed the accepted standard for patient transport there are situations where a routine patient transport can take a turn for the worst. HSE aside your staff can still receive only a lecture on emergency driving and be called upon to drive in a life or death situation with out having ever received any on the road driving experience in a 999 situation. Can we agree that much? nnThough only 20% of the HSE as you say have only received a ROSPA cert the remaining drivers have had some form of in house training, involving on the road driving. n

      Reply
  • David can I ask a question. Can you personally guarantee that every member of your staff, be they either full-time or part-time, have received vetting from your company in that it is Garda vetting, compliance with Phecc clinical standards etc, driving standards?? and this includes members of your staff who may work for you on an ad-hoc basis having been trained by a previous organisation and in current full time employment with them.

    Reply
    • Not only are my staff Garda vetted they are so every 2 years. That’s the point it’s not just a one off vetting, there needs to be a standard that specifies how often staff should be vetted. No one is obliged to Adhere to Pheccs driving standard however we have adopted it and are training staff. This is not currently a requirement as if it was 80% HSE staff would not be able to drive and 90% of voluntary staff could not drive

      Reply
    • It’s not about what my staff have or have not it’s about what everyone should have

      Reply
    • Realistically volunteer staff shouldn’t be transporting 999 cases bar exceptional circumstances. I’m sorry if this offends any volunteer OMAC or SJA it’s just my personal opinion. The same for private ambulances. 999 response should be left those who are trained to deal with it in regards to driving. Don’t forget, regardless of what lights or sirens you have you are still driving on your own license and still subject to the rules of the road. Your only exempt from certain bi laws only in an emergency situation. And again I can only speak from my own training not other organisations. Dave if you got your regulations tomorrow you’d be out of business as your staff would not meet a driving standard?

      Reply
    • As regards driver training, you say 20% of HSE staff. Do you mean 20% of HSE/NAS staff, or HSE staff overall?

      Reply
    • The same question regarding Garda vetting……NAS numbers you quote or HSE overall?

      Reply
  • Hi David , I believe you took a case a number of years ago against Dublin city council / Dublin fire brigade re the provision of the ambulance service…. How did that work out? Also do you allow your staff to become members of a trade union?

    Reply
    • sorry case not taken by me.court papers will tell you that.my staff can join any organisation incl unions. not that its relevant to regulation we operate a collective bargaining system.

      Reply
    • whats to be suspicious about Mick. regulation is independent. people are getting very defensive . its not about me or my company. ask hse what % of nas staff garda vetted. i understand its 50%. but i might be wrong by 5%

      Reply
    • But David Hall who owns Lifeline, the private ambulance operator which took the original complaint to Europe, said: “We have entered into correspondence with the HSE over this matter, and we are waiting for a formal judgment of the court before it would be appropriate to make any comment. We were not allowed to tender, even though we have three times more ambulances than them (Dublin City Council). They had the tender all to themselves.”
      Sunday Independent March 2007

      Reply
  • Am I the only one here thinking David is doing what he can for his private ambulances can get more business and make him more money?

    I could be right, I could be wrong, but it is what I believe.

    Reply
  • Garda vetting done, driving course done, compliant with continuous professional development so I have nothing to be afraid of. Your article is intended to give the impression to the public that the ambulance service is full of rogues. Surely there’s better ways of getting publicity?

    Reply
    • But is your organisation. It’s about regulation of the entity that is running the service operationally and clinically. Are all vehicles doe d? Is all equipment services? Are all drugs in date? Is every ambulance fully equipped and all equipment serviced? Etc these are basics so no one should fear them.

      Reply
  • Self publicity if I ever saw it. Why brag about been the managing director of your company and then slate others. Stop throwing stones in glasshouses. After all, it means yours is also non regulated too.

    Reply
  • Did we miss an opportunity to make another quango?
    I despair

    Reply
  • Wheras I agree with some of the statements , there is a vested interest commenting on it which leads me to be suspicious.

    Reply
  • David every time some one hear starts to challenge you, your response has been to ask why the poster is afraid of regulation.

    I will say this in full caps to emphise the point as you like to

    NONE OF US ARE AFRAID IF REGULATION!

    I agree with the lads above that vols should not be tasked with 999 calls and neither should privates. As a member of a vol, I can state for my own org a member is not even allowed on an EFR course without completed Garda vetting which is re – done as every so often in accordance with the vetting sections recommendations.

    Can I ask you state that all your vehicles have the ability to record when blues are used and you have strict guidelines in place as to when they are used, what are these guidelines? As a member of a traffic corps unit I can say I have had numerous issues with excessive and unnesscary use of lights by private ambulance companies.

    Reply
    • Blue lights can only be used with permission from our Controll. Each vehicle has a tracking devise fitted that tracks vehicle speed, location and blue light activation.

      Reply
    • They do not have the ability they record their activation of blue lights , speeding automatically via text message to management. Also full journey details recorded from ignition being turned on until it’s turned off for each journey. Any specific journey concerns contact me and I’ll investigate

      Reply
  • Well what do you base your strict blue light policy on ? Is it based on clinical need? If the decision by your company to authorize blue lights, who makes that decision? A practitioner of the same or higher qualification ? If that practitioner overrules, does that outside practitioner take the overwhelming clinical responsibility for what physical occurred in the ambulance? What if the attending practitioner is right about the blue light requirement and your control is wrong ? Do you use a clinical determinant system like Automated Medical Prority Dispatch to flag the call, like the state bodies do ?

    Reply
    • Volume does not require the state system now does any standard body. It’s done by senior clinical person above the person making the request and documented accordingly. Records would show 2 blue light requirements for patient transfers let week, that’s all so a low number . Any specifics queries contact me and I’ll investigate . System also reports any speeding as it occurs by alerting management and each manager including myself receives a text when blue lights activated.

      Reply
    • Remind us of your blue light policy and whether the tracking devices in each ambulance are active?

      Reply
  • More scaremongering and hypocrisy from mr hall! cut the bs about regulation and patient safety all your interested in is lining your pockets. You had no problem using the phecc quarterly newsletter to advertise for new staff a while back and you said on another forum that their biased towards Hse/dfb!!

    Reply
  • There’s always more to these articles than meets the eye. It’s well written, just like all the others David penned on the woe’s of the Ambulance Service in Ireland. And you can guess who he thinks can do it better?
    Private services, regardless of what they are, Ambulance Services or otherwise, are all revenue driven, they are there to make money, Cha-Ching.
    Now if one operator can tie-up the other service’s with red tape, who benefits? Cha-Ching, now you have it, two points to you.
    Remember this, whenever you read these type of articles from Businessmen with vested interest in the subject matter, always use the (Cha-Ching) sound at the end of every sentence, it’ll keep you grounded to reality.

    Reply
  • Lads why in gods name are ye entertaining this guy, just ignore him, all you are doing is pandering to him, we are better off just ignoring him, if we are to be more regulated and have to jump through more hoops so be it, MR HALL, IM JUST CURIOUS WHATS IN THIS FOR YOU???????????

    Reply
  • Huff and puff ! I do like the way you try and deflect questions! I answered your question, I dont know exact timings on the national communications reconfiguring into one, but I do know it’s happening! You are quite complimentary but alias I’m not all knowing or seeing, but I am quite observant and I’ve observed you avoiding my question on wages quite a bit there David! So what kind of things do you want to see coming out of regulation ? It’s clear you don’t want to see fair and equitable wages and terms for practitioners from your deflection( ironic considering your other endeavours) you also believe that your company is a leader and the pinnacle that all private and statutory bodies should emulate, yet you feel you shouldn’t adopt recommendations unless some regulator tells you too. My feeling on your ideas on regulation are two fold. 1 you feel that it may lead to a cheaper, less burdensome method of business, by having an alternative to phecc regulation and 2 regulation means that you keep your competition from providing more services or advancing away from the pack easily.you talk about binding standards but the real truth is there’s no boogey man in the closet, not the way your publicising it anyway. You want to constipate the system because you see that we are heading out of era of prehistory that was the private ambulance industry! Prehospital care has transformed and has become or is set to become an entirely different animal thanks to phecc and much to your frustration. I remember an employer telling me when I looked for a pay increase “that if I could get monkeys to work for peanuts, why would I give them bananas ?! If regulation is to become more formalised pay and work conditions have to be regulated too! Your very quick to point out issues within other organisations, not so forthcoming in answering questions on your own practices

    Reply
    • Hall (to many people giving this nut respect so i wont call him Mr.) won’t answer your question regarding pay Kevin so lets phrase it another way for him. David would you approve of a new independent regulator setting fair terms and conditions with regards to pay for the industry or would you like to keep paying the minium wage to keep profits up?

      Reply
  • Vol ambulance members are Garda vetted.

    NAS vehicles are doe’d every year & serviced regularly.

    All equipment in the back of an NAS vehicle undergoes annual servicing & maintenance checks by external service agents ie Patron, Oxycare, Cardiac Services etc.

    The Phecc only started inspecting all ambulance services in 2010, timelines as follows:

    Private ambulance providers in 2010
    Statutory ambulance providers in 2011
    Vol/aux ambulance providers in 2012

    Reply
  • pagan 25/06/12 #

    What’s ur view on the airport fire service which is run by D.A.A.
    There ambulance staff are fully trained paramedics who done the course run by dfb and operate under pheec guide lines.
    I think you have self interest in promoting ur own company In all of this.

    Reply
  • Also a question of your medicinal policy. How are your drug bags stored and are they designated by colour for each practitioner level? Are all ambulances carrying the full compliment of medications for the relevant practitioner on duty?

    Reply
    • We were inspected and approved by Phecc and HSE so I’d safely say they are happy so I am if they are. In addition to health insurance companies . Phecc dispatch standard is a recommendation and is not compulsory . Are all HSE vehicles CEN? I could ask many questions Of the HSE Kevin but its pointless . If Independent regulation comes in it makes no difference. Be very clear on Pheccs role, do not assume they have any jurisdiction on every area . Has the HSE been inspected by Hiqa or equivilant as we have for hygiene standards. The objective of independent regulation is conversations like this should not be needed as each organisation who meets the set standards have a licence to provide services .

      Reply
    • Kevin the issue is I can have drugs stored in pink packs, or even purple packs. They can be in freezer bags. That’s the point of standards and independent inspections . Not sure how much more useful our exchanges will be. Hiqa I believe are announcing care standards tomorrow which might include ambulance standards. Only saw press release this Evening so this might be a step towards regulation , maybe not lets see tomorrow

      Reply
  • This emotive article is written in self interest.
    Where is the evidence of wrong doing, negligence or malpractice? Most ambulance journeys are simply patient transport from one location to another. Not every trip is an emergency.
    One thing for sure, the HSE ambulance allocation system and hospital destination procedure could be improved.

    Reply
  • Firstly I think it’s fair to point out that Mr.Hall was a member of the prehospital care council from 2001 to 2008 ( I stand corrected on specific dates. I feel phecc, does an exemplar job in regulating paramedics and advanced paramedics. I think that as it stands there are two major issues for Mr Hall. 1 most health insurance companies, the Hse and other organisations, that lifeline or other services would compete for contracts for, require phecc registered paramedics as a minimum requirement. Due to a shortage of paramedics in the private sector, many private sector paramedics are foreign trained who apply of recognition from phecc. The costs of paramedic and the required CPG compliance, including equipment, medications etc are costly and therefore I suspect this is looking for a cheap and easy ways to try and look for less qualified staff . Also it should be noted that the Garda vetting section has only a limited number of countries that it’s capable of vetting

    Reply
    • Sorry you are wrong and very I’ll informed. Health insurers including the largest Vhi encourage and promote and pay for transport in a non Cen ambulance with two emts. No requirement for paramedics at all. The new HSE contract only requires two emts again no paramedics . Nationality of staff not an issue. Phecc register everyone at Emt , paramedic and ap.

      Reply
    • Again very defensive tone regarding regulation which should be embraced by any one wanting patient safety and staff safety . My organisation would be subjected to any regulation so what’s the problem. Have you not openly stated concerns by your employer on various social media ? Not every organisation is perfect so why not have clear standards and let everyone be assessed against them.

      Reply
  • My mum who had Terminal cancer had a experience of this service.. On way to UCHG the first ambulance broke down. Second came and was been driven when driver found it had faulty brakes. When i asked ambulance staff they admit that servicing was often not carried out.

    Reply
  • I have everything I need to save a life in the back of EVERY ambulance I have worked on, within the NAS. I have been Garda vetted twice since I started in the NAS. I cannot comment on specifics or timeline but I know the national control room is on the cards. You have the barefaced gall to talk about regulation and yet wish to dismiss staff and an equitable wage as not being relevant! I can tell you this the National Ambulance Service is one of the most dynamically evolving, patient focused organisations I have had the privilege to work for. I believe it and phecc are something to be proud of! The thing that seems to have escaped you, or perhaps it’s why your so adamant on missing the waters is that ambulance services are far more than transportation services, the providers of prehospital emergency care, that’s it’s main objective! You may not like the recommendations by phecc, you may cherry pick which ones to follow, but don’t dare try and undermine the public confidence in there emergency services. You want to tell people there are monsters lurking in the shadows in terms of rouge services but be prepared to back it up.

    Reply
    • Kevin answer the questions asked . Easy to huff and puff not so easy to back it up. Did Hiqa recommend closing Controll rooms and are they closed. The truth is no one knows who really does what except you. Easiest option is regulation thats independent with binding standards. Actually don’t answer the questions asked I know the answers. Phecc has no compulsory requirements apart from cpg approval the rest is voluntary and that’s my point which you have missed , I’m not saying who has or has not got what but that standards set should be compulsory. Mud throwing serves no purpose .

      Reply
  • Well the NAS priorities every emergency call using the AMPDs . Priority calls are logged as echo, delta,Charlie and certain cases bravo. These supported by PHECCs priority dispatch protocol and the international academy of emergency medical dispatchers. The above get a full emergency response. Low priority calls are alpha or omega and get a normal toad condition response. Practitioners can upgrade/downgrade call after they make a physical exam of patient. All NAS and DFB vehicles have automated vehicle locators . Sounds very …… Regulated wouldn’t you say! Is your control room staffed with certified Emergency Medical Dispatchers? Has your control room supervisor got certification in this and what is the clinical level of the control room supervisor? How Many clinical supervisors are in your control room ? What clinical level are they ? What happens if there unavailable ?

    Reply
  • Dani L 24/06/12 #

    i remember when i was transferred by ambulance from the wexford to Dublin, it picked up two other patients, and i got charged for them. when i rang about it i was told they were public patients and they usually would put them in with a private patient so they could pick up the bill. If i was asked firstly i wouldn’t have minded but not to be told at all till i followed it up was appalling.

    Reply
  • You would be alarmed at the number of people who work in Cavan hospital who are NOT Garda vetted.

    Reply
  • James when and where have you seen an ambulance provider operating in the above conditions? The phecc is independent in the sense that it’s stand alone from both statutory bodies and private concerns. Members are seconded from there main services, including Mr.Hall while he was a council member to avoid cronyism or stagnant practices! Phecc standards are a seal of quality that have become recognized as a professional safe guard! Who’s employing these rouge or phantom services? I’ve yet to see one? If someone is not registered as a practitioner, there guilty of assault as they are working outside recognized professional constraints and out of recognized scope of practice! If you or Mr.Hall are aware of such individuals, it would be an obligation on your part to bring these individuals to the attention of the relevant authorities ie Hiqa, phecc and an Garda siochana! Instead I believe this is scaremongering and trying to undermine the public confidence in phecc, the statutory services and other reputable private concerns along with vas, while making mr.halls organization look like a model service to be emulated. I want to know why Mr.Hall has ignored questions on fair pay for practitioners, his medicinal policy. To discredit PHECC in my view is simply because certain conceRns are not finding the guidelines convenient

    Reply
    • Kevin why have you not been Garda vetted every two years? Why because you do not have to me. Why does every ambulance service not have a dispatch system? Because they do not have to have. The point is I can ask you multiple questions around what the HSE has and does not have and as you Hae done like wise, however the original point being made is around independent regulation which every service would be required to achieve.

      Reply
    • Hi Kevin,

      Please read my post again.

      Anyone can at any time, buy an ambulance and go out to work in it. No laws are broken and no one can stop you and you can employ anyone you want to work in it.

      However, you need to register and hold a licence to work as a taxi driver, this is required by law.

      I know ambulances are sometimes referred to as taxis, but the sad truth is taxis are more regulated.

      Reply
  • Well the health insurers must have had a whopper of a turn around in the past two years or so. My point on foreign paramedics was the costs of reciprocation, providing equipment, meds, malpractice insurance etc. I have never critiqued my particular employer on social media . Correct me if I’m wrong but if an employer whichs to operate with a particular level of phecc practitioner, then the employer must then sign up to phecc to become CPG compliant and all regulation that goes with it! I’m all for regulation, however this would focus in my view on service providers, particularly on working conditions and pay !

    Reply
    • Maybe you might check what % of as you say overseas workers your employer has employed. Great your for regulation. Phecc only look at one aspect of an ambulance operation. Not all approved organisations have actually been inspected , about 50%. If you say that’s regulation then that’s your view. It’s not mine. The two largest Pre hospital providers were only inspected over the last few months . Hardly a robust system.

      Reply
  • Well Hiqa are involved with the ambulance service since last year so I fail to see the relevance of you mentioning Hiqa potentially discussing ambulance standards. Yes the phecc dispatch protocol isn’t compulsory, but surely David, A company that is looking to be beyond reproach should be welcoming and adopting any recommendations that are made and not be waiting for someone to tell them to do it. There is a world of difference in having an inspection and what is happening on a day to day basis. Also is it to be taken that by omission that you cannot guarantee that your vehicles carry all the medications relevant to the crewing practitioners level on a day to day basis? I again repeat my question on what your idea for a fair wage for practitioners should be?

    Reply
    • To be clear all my vehicles carry the appropriate equipment do yours? Wages nothing to do with regulation. Maybe you should ask for a copy of the Phecc inspection on the HSE cpg compliance before you start on a further rant. Glass houses. Has the HSE got a grade A hygiene standard? Are all Controll centres using the priority dispatch system . Did Hiqa recommend the closing of a number of Controll centres 4 years ago? Did they close? Surley a Service wanting to protect public would Adher to Hiqa recomendations? Same with Hiqa recomendations from Maeve McGivern report? If independent regulation comes in this will deal with all your concerns so lets hope it comes in . The end good night

      Reply
  • Why would I want to know or care how many overseas trained paramedics are in any organisation ? I was remarking on the cost to a service provider. Well it may not appear fair but both statutory services have gone through reconfiguration over the past 3 years . So it would make sense to inspect or audit Those services when the configation was complete or certainly the bones of the reconfiguration were in place. Another reason private organizations might of been done first was to separate fact from fiction. I want to see a regulator set a livable wage for practitioners and to see operators accountable for how they do business. PHECC do regulate Paramedics, EMTs and Advanced Paramedics and by definition of Requiring the provider service to become compliant with the relevant scope of practice it regulates at least the clinical aspect of the companies operation

    Reply
  • We’ve all seen ambulances in Ireland with lights and sirens not able to keep up with traffic on motorways.
    Get some motors and get rid of those slow old diesels.
    Not only that, but if you live in Navan, Kells or thereabouts, you’ll be tossed about and bumped to death on the road to Drogheda when Navan A&E closes next month.
    Not to mention the reduction in numbers of HSE ambulance units in Navan..

    Reply
    • Welcome to the world of public finding! And it’s only being held together by the goodwill and ingenuity of the staff. You cannot have a privately driven health service where a profit has to be made to keep investors/stockholders happy. Patient care WILL suffer for it.

      Reply
  • I gotta say that all this about the phecc not being independent is a bit of cods wallop. I mean surely those who understand the issues eg professionals in the industry are the right people – whether from the private or public service. They are better able to set guidelines and levels. Surely they should maybe have their role redefined. Either that or get some pleb to waste more taxpayers money. I guess Gay Byrne heading up the RSA is an example. For what it’s worth. I’m not on the industry but I think the original poster/Column writer must have a vested interest or he wouldn’t have picked this method as a vehicle to put across his views. I’m all for regulation myself – but I think peers are best for regulating most industries. It’s like the dail – we’ve ex teachers as ministers of finance etc – likewise this country would be in a better state if we elected professionals to ministerial positions. Either that or have a mix of strategists and professionals on a new regulatory body. But dissolve the PHECC as if I were to work in the industry it would be hard enough to comply with one regulatory body plus my employers rules and regulations. Mr Hall – don’t you realise we are in a recession – we have enough red tape

    Reply
    • I’d go with what Corey says that those in the industry should be involved in its regulation. I for one would not be in agreement that should one be on the regulatory body that they should not hold a position with one of the service providers. Better to have representatives from both the public and private sector providers. Detachment of members of the regulatory body from holding a position with a service provider points towards privatisation as the State currently is the bulk provider. And guess who is possibly best positioned to set up or hold a position on the board of this new body – Mr David Hall. Sure his company is purring away nicely to take on a non executive position in Lifeline at this point in time

      Reply
  • Excellent article , David. I applaud your call for regulation. This would support and affirm the excellent work of the majority of workers in this sector who do a great job. But are you saying that some workers on ambulances are not even Garda vetted , handling vulnerable children ? That they may be working yet be totally unqualified to do the job ? That the vehicles may not be checked for roadworthiness and the medical stock on board may not be in date? This is unacceptable. Where is HIQA now ? They are too busy making sure that hospital and nursing home patients have right colour pillow cases. Well done for highlighting this issue. I hope it sparks the necessary debate

    Reply
  • Nice article highlighting I am sure one of many disfunctional services in the civil service!

    Reply
    • It’s not civil service, it’s public service you are referring to. And David is talking about all ambulance providers, both public and private. This is nothing to do with the public/private debate. It is about regulating an industry that deals with life an death scenarios everyday

      Reply
    • I don’t think this article attacks the civil service , many ambulance services are private and conduct transportation of patients from home , residential care and hospitals to other places for medical care . I also believe it covers any voluntary ambulance service ie order of malta , st johns ambulance etc . It highlights the point for the need for an independent regulatory body so that any vulnerable /sick patient can be safe in the knowledge that they are being treated by vetted competent trained people.

      Reply
    • This article is aimed at ALL ambulance services both public and private. It is not in any way supposed to fuel a public vs private debate. Neither are regulated

      Reply
    • Get A Life David No One Gives A Shit

      Reply
  • Obviously Davids company have nothing to hide and fair play to them. Great article and thanks for bringing this to my attention. I’m pretty shocked and agree entirely that this cannot be left as is. Time to eradicate the gangsters and cowboys in all forms of trade in ireland… It ain’t fair in very hard times to be working in an environment where some take advantage of the lack of regulations and where regulations do exists then the lack of enforcement of same regulations to make gains at the expense of companies who genuinely try to stay within the regulations.

    Reply
  • tuba hg 24/06/12 #

    Answering Brian Walsh’s comment nIt doesn’t take away from the fact that these organisations are being now used in many areas Maynooth for eg as front line fully trained professionals to cut costs They have NOT got this type of training nThey cannot guarantee that a fully trained medical pro will be with them at all times

    Reply
  • I’d like to post a long winded rant about a semi-public-private-state body do I have to be a managing director or is it ok if I write it on a beer mat. loads of finger pointing yet very little solutions. I agree everything everywhere should have some sort of regulations to make sure they form a code of good practice.

    be honest it’s an ambulance your getting not a taxi.. who cares whose name is on the side.. it has blue lights and traffic gives way to it fastest way to hospital for medical treatment.

    so where do I post my beer mat with a story or is there a queen for the soap box.

    Reply
  • One of the best Articles I have read on the Journal nThere is nothing to protect the public from the Wanabees the voluntary sector who while very well meaning can in reality cause a lot more harm than good. The Order of Malta and Red Cross need to take a step back from medical care and concentrate more on welfare

    Reply
    • Sorry wannabes??? Same level of training, same CPGs same medications, no matter what level from CFR to AP, everybody does it to help other people, im proud to be a member of Civil Defence and an EFR, take this scenario, CD,OMAC whoever is on a duty and one of your loved ones is in a car crash nearby, HSE ambo is 1hr away, are we wannabes then?? No, we are skilled trained Medical Professionals who can save peoples lives!!!

      Reply
    • Tuba you were recently involved heavily in a debate regarding voluntary organisations and your comments were rather derogatory and somewhat unfounded. You do not need to once again begin to attack specific organisations. whatever your personal gripe is, this particular topic started by David is not to highlight one or two specific groups.

      Reply
    • Sorry , so what you want us to do is, if there a situation arises where a child requires CPR, or a man/woman complains of chest pain , you want us to stand by and watch and wait for an ambulance to arrive, all the while we could have been making the neccasary interventions to save that persons life. If a situation arose whilst on duty with Civil Defence, I would do everything in my power to save that patients life, regardless of whatever ridicolous “law” which might be in place. Iv been working with voluntary organistions all my life and I know that Order of Malta, Civil Defence and whichever else might be in place ,are trained to the highest standard of their qualification and are thought to only treat to the highest level of perfection.

      Reply
    • @tuba hg “The Order of Malta and Red Cross need to take a step back from medical care and concentrate more on welfare” My daughter has been involved with the order of Malta for over 12 years, she is now a qualified nurse practicing in a major hospitals ED Department and a qualified paramedic, she has plenty of experience in medical care along with her colleagues.
      If you should ever find yourself in need of their “medical care” they will be there to give it, they’ll provide qualified medical care, not hand holding, and remember as a voluntary organisation their time and experience is given freely. In short they save lives in their spare time, what do you do?

      Reply
  • tuba hg 24/06/12 #

    Connor I didn’t include the civil defence in my comment they are subject to the same accountability as the fire service and indeed the same training nI would suggest that any volunteer who wants to engage in this work should resign from the Order of Malta/red cross etc and join the civil defence. n

    Reply
  • Any organisation that offers a service to the public , especially such a sensitive one on healthcare should be subject to rigorous independent regulation and have to be affiliated to a recognised regulatory body. This means that standards are uniform across the board and that the public can have confidence that those standards are being monitored and reviewed. It matters not a jot whether it is a private company or a public company. So if mr hall has written this column to promote his own self interest is also irrelevant. It is clear to me as an interested observer that there are passionate feelings about this and strong views , which usually means there is an issue which needs to be addressed.

    Reply
  • Seems nobody gives a damn about standards. That’s fine until one of your own relatives is messed about in an ambulance which turns out not to be answerable to anyone. The venom out there against David Halls call for regulation is frankly mind-blowing in light of the many debates currently on the journal. Child safety , catholic church accountability etc.

    Reply
    • It proves that many organisations are not yet ready for regulation. Which is sad. People have to personalise it where industry professionals like any other industry would generally be promoting regulation but this industry is a bit strange that way.

      Reply
    • No it’s not. I would welcome regulation and I am a HSE Paramedic. But unfortunately anybody who knows of Mr. Hall can’t help but be suspicious when he is publicising himself, and his company. Again.

      Reply
    • Mr Hall is a very successful but shrewd business man, and I’m sure is of the ethos there is no such thing as bad press. The concern about his calls for regulation are based on motive. A regulatory body would all but decimate the volunteer pre hospital care section leaving a vacant hole to be filled by private ambulance companies. And I’d question how his own would stand up to scrutiny?

      Reply
  • MojoRise 24/06/12 #

    Test

    Reply
  • hi david, you are right to demand more regulation for this sector, obviously the first beneficiary will be the sector and of course the service user. from my experience over a decade in your same position, this is more a political issue that health and they know that if you are going to demand more service level will have to pay more for the service they demand, maybe everything will chains, and only postponed it. On the other hand, it waits for the user level quality of service that is not regulated enough. I do not know how this medical transport sector in Ireland, or if there is an association of ambulance companies,, perhaps a spokesman of these should talk to the government in solidarity to the association of ambulance companies without putting any particular firm, this would be dangerous, and establish minimum requirements in terms of characteristics of the vehicles, old and equipping them according to category, and of course the training of staff. On the other hand who would form such staff, I mean would have to be a recognized public or private. From what I see in your article, you have to do everything.
    Good luck because not going to be easy if you really want something.

    Reply
  • Well here are a few points to think over, they are all correct from what I can see.
    1) PHECC are not independent, if they were then the fulltime staff in PHECC should resign from all current public/private/voluntary connections they have. But is it possible to have an independent body like that?

    2) Anyone in Ireland can buy an ambulance with working lights and siren just check out done deal. EBay has more restrictions then Irish law, as they require the word “ambulance” to be removed and all lights and sirens also. From the law in Ireland, what is required is a Revenue inspection (new and imported one time inspection) to see that there is fitted oxygen and a floor mounted stretcher, the vehicle is then classed as “ambulance” under Irish law and it is required to have a full DOE each year. No need for CEN or PHECC, or even a driving licence. Ohh and the inspection isn’t even conduction by Revenue anymore, they tendered it out to all the main private test centres.

    3) There is no requirement for an ambulance provider, public/private/whatever to register with PHECC. You do not need permission to buy/operate/use an ambulance in Ireland.

    In case you haven’t noticed point 2 & 3 are the key problem in my view. Members of the public in general see all ambulances the same way.
    So until points 2 & 3 are fixed and point 1 is addressed, some of you are buying expensive vehicles and spending a lot of time training and others are not, but both get to drive around in the same looking vehicle

    Reply
    • James I do appreciate your points and I think that superficially they make sense but here is where I think there flawed 1: prehospital emergency care in Ireland has quantum leaped in terms of scope of practice, interventions and for the want of a better term, it’s goals have changed. Prior to 2000 there was basic emergency medical technicians, who could do very little in emergencies except advanced first aid oxygen therapy and reassurance. When phecc was incepted in 2000 it started to try and move us more towards the uk and USA standards of Basic and advanced life support, a move culminating in the advanced paramedic program. We currently are currently trying to move towards the Australian system. Which has meant increased scope of practice, to the point were we are now looking to bring patients to the nearest appropriate hospital interms of a patients medical complaint as opposed to the nearest hospital. This has been internationally proven to increase survival in serious trauma and cardiac cases as well as strokes. Phecc may have representation from different services but that’s both necessary as it has universalised care in all bodies, statutory, voluntary and auxiliary ( including private services, as well as allowing research into the demographics nationally to facilitate developments in prehospital and emergency medicine. Representation on the council is limited to a term of about 5 years (thereabouts) , this prevents stagnation or isolation of any one group. David Hall himself was a member of the council. 2 yes anyone can buy an Ambulance, but to own an ambulance doesn’t mean you can operate as an ambulance service. To operate you have to be inspected by HSE and PHECC. Although PHECC are not binding as a regulator as such, there standards in Ireland have become something that customers like insurers, event organisers and the HSE seek. You can’t just buy an ambulance and do calls, unless your a nut who goes out like a medical vigilante and combs the streets for patients, it doesn’t happen. If it did then those individuals would be guilty of assault or abduction. With that logic stethoscopes should be regulated as you could pretend to be a doctor. Which is kind of my point that hasn’t escaped Mr.Hall, Prehospital care practitioners are a regulated health care professionals. To regulate Ambulances Providers isn’t really as big an issue, as certain protagonists would have you believe, because for said provider to deliver services customers now expect phecc practitioners and there respective scope of practice. It’s not the otherway round, infact many legitimate and good quality services, have gone bust due to hostile tactics from competitors. That’s because the private sector is small and new competition is extremely difficult

      Reply

Add New Comment