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Dublin: 18 °C Wednesday 19 June, 2013

Colm O’Gorman: The State failed children, but so too did society

The head of Amnesty International Ireland addresses concerns of the ‘No’ camp in Children’s Referendum – and says the Constitution will still be unambiguous in asserting the status of the family.

Colm O'Gorman

IT’S BEEN A strange sort of Referendum Campaign. In the weeks which followed the announcement of the polling date it appeared there might not actually be a campaign at all, simply on the basis that there didn’t seem to a No side to mount one. It was the ‘Mother and Apple Pie’ referendum we were told, a foregone conclusion, after all who would oppose an effort to strengthen children’s rights given the child abuse and neglect scandals of the past twenty years or more?

In the past week or so a No campaign has emerged more clearly. Not so much an organised and cohesive coalition or movement but rather a collection of individual voices that share some degree of common concern about the proposed amendment.

It seems to me that those concerns centre on a few issues.

There is a view that the State should not be granted increased power to intervene in families as the State is not to be trusted and has failed egregiously in the past to protect children and defend their rights.

I am fascinated by how some people approach the question of State power and State intervention. The whole point about the State’s power of intervention, and indeed human rights protection is that is applies to all of us equally. It is inconsistent to demand greater State power and intervention, for example in demanding increasingly harsh criminal justice responses that will certainly limit the rights and freedoms of others who are perceived to be some sort of threat, while insisting that the State has no right to interfere in any way your own life, even if it is doing so in a considered and proportionate manner and in an effort to ensure that the rights of others are properly protected.

Of course the State should never be simply trusted to exercise the very considerable power that we as citizens grant it. We should always question and carefully monitor how and to what end the state exercises its power. This is in part what a constitution is intended to clarify; the scope of the States authority, the purpose to which it should apply it and the contexts within which the State can intervene in the people’s lives and freedoms.

“Any intervention must be proportionate to the needs of the child”

This amendment seeks to clarify when and why the State might be required to intervene to ensure that children are safe and from protected abuse. It makes clear that any intervention must be proportionate to the needs of the child or children concerned and in their best interests. The rights of families are not diminished by this amendment.

Article 41 of the constitution is utterly unambiguous in asserting the status of the family, recognising it as “the natural primary and fundamental unit group of society possessing inalienable and imprescriptible rights, antecedent and superior to all positive law”. The same article requires the State to protect the family, and asserts that the family is indispensible to the welfare of the Nation and the State.

This article will not change.

Rather the amendment will work with this other important provision and guide how the State should intervene to support families and protect the children in their care.

We must remember that children living within families do sometimes require extra State care and support and that sometimes families are not in fact safe places for children. In the rush to reassure society that it recognises that the vast majority of families are places of love and security for children, we cannot shirk from naming the fact that the opposite is also on occasion true.

The most extensive and reputable research into sexual violence in Ireland, the SAVI Report, commissioned by the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre and carried out by the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland, was published in 2002. It found that 27 per cent of Irish adults reported an experience of sexual abuse in their childhoods. A fifth of respondents were abused by members of their own families. Yesterday the Rape Crisis Network of Ireland revealed that of 2,308 people who accessed their services last year, 65 per cent were sexually abused before the age of twelve and a staggering 47 per cent reported that their abusers were family members.

“Hasn’t the past taught us anything?”

There is nothing pro-family about ignoring these facts. It can surely never be acceptable that the price of some kind of blissful ignorance on the part of those who refuse to confront uncomfortable truths is the continuing suffering of children in abusive family situations. Haven’t we done enough of that here in Ireland? Hasn’t the past taught us anything?

We cannot decry the State alone for its past failures. The widespread abuse of children in Ireland, in the care of families and the State alike, was only possible in a society wilfully blind to the very fact of such abuse. The State failed egregiously, but it did so because the rest of society failed too. The State could ignore the plight of children who were raped, abused, neglected and brutalised because we collectively allowed it do so.
It’s not that we didn’t know, it’s that we didn’t either care enough to intervene or accept that we had a collective responsibility to do so.

The State failed, and to varying degrees so did the rest of Irish society. I am not alone in that view. In a survey carried out for Amnesty International last year 85 per cent of respondents said that they believed individual members of society should have done more to protect the children whose abuse was revealed in the Ferns, Ryan, Murphy and Cloyne Reports. Some 71 per cent believed that wider society bears some responsibility for the abuse revealed in the reports, and 88 per cent agreed that individual members of society should have demanded that the State act to prevent such abuse.

Irish society appears to have learned from the failures of the past, and the State appears to be learning too. The proposed referendum is just one in a series of recent reforms to protect children.

In the past year we have seen the establishment of the Child and Family Support Agency, which will take over responsibility for child protection and family support from the HSE. We have seen state child protection guidelines given the force of law, minimum standards introduced for child protection and family support services which will be subject to independent inspection for the first time in the history of the State. These vital steps will help to ensure, even in our financially straitened times, that our services are more fit for purpose and that we do not repeat the failures of the past.

“John Waters argues that children are not equipped to directly claim their rights”

John Waters, who has emerged as one of the leading spokespersons for the No Campaign, questions the very principle of recognising children as possessing individual rights. Waters has rightly pointed out that the vindication of an individual’s rights is dependent upon the negotiation, or balancing, of those rights against the rights of others. He argues that children are not equipped to directly claim or vindicate their rights and are dependent upon their parents to do so for them. From this he concludes that children cannot be viewed as possessing individual rights.

If we follow John Waters’s argument through then we can only conclude that other vulnerable people like the elderly, people with intellectual disabilities, or people experiencing mental health problems do not posses rights because they cannot vindicate them for themselves.

But the vindication of individual rights is always dependent upon a power or authority beyond the individual human being who possesses those rights. No matter our age, our legal or intellectual capacity, the enjoyment and vindication of individual rights is always dependent upon the support and protection of the State.

The State has a responsibility to protect the rights of all people who live within its borders. In doing so it must carefully consider and balance competing rights, and it must ensure that it is properly accountable for doing so.

The proposed amendment is not a human rights amendment. It will not enshrine the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child in Irish law, nevertheless it will hopefully take us some of the way towards respecting the important rights set out in that convention.

It will advance key principles that should ensure that children who are in particularly vulnerable situations are better considered and protected. It is a significant step forward in that regard, which is why Amnesty International Ireland is supportive of the amendment and why I personally will be giving the proposal my unequivocal support.

Colm O’Gorman is the Executive Director of Amnesty International Ireland.

Check TheJournal.ie tomorrow morning for final arguments from the ‘Yes’ and the ‘No’ side on the Children’s Referendum.

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Comments (71 Comments)

  • Can anyone tell me what, if any rights, this so called ‘Childrens Referendum’ will bestow on children in general?

    Reply
    • Fintan have a look at link I posted below

      Reply
    • The right to a voice in court proceedings relating to them. For children in long term foster care it will mean the right to a second chance at a stable and loving home. The right to have their best interests as the “paramount consideration” in judges decisions relating to them

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    • That’s in relation to adoption only – nothing to do children in general as my question asked.

      Is this an Adoption referendum or a Childrens Rights referendum

      Reply
    • I wouldn’t bother, it’s only a pie chart!

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    • it is not only in relation to adoption Fintan it also states that childrens rights will be taken away the state will have the power to make decisions for our children do think that is right?

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    • I too am beginning to wonder if this is an Adoption Referendum or a Children’s Rights Referendum as our Constitution already protects children. Maybe the government should have put the 1.1 Million to better use by ensuring the HSE are correctly trained and doing their jobs properly in the cases where children are at risk. I fear whether this Referendum is passed or not that people will now think twice about using child social services( when really needed) as they won’t want to have any record of being in the system incase in the future it’s used against them.Also at what age is it deemed approriate for a child to have its ‘rights’ heard in a court of law?????

      Reply
    • Aoife M 09/11/12 #

      Louise, here’s the wording of the proposed amendment: http://www.referendum2012.ie/proposed-article/ Would you mind telling us where exactly it states that children’s right will be taken away?

      Fintan, the very first section of the new Article, 42A.1, says “the State recognises and affirms the natural and imprescriptible rights of all children” – this a really important change, as previously the only mention of children’s rights was at the tail-end of Article 42.5, and even then it was only in relation to children whose parents have failed them “for physical or moral reasons.” The new amendment finally recognises that ALL children have rights.

      Also, all children/young people affected by custody, guardianship, adoption or access cases will be entitled to express their views to the court, and when making its decision the court will have to give primary consideration to the welfare (“best interests”) of the child.

      Reply
    • @Aoife..How exactly can very young children or babies voice an opinion in court? You are obviously only talking about older children and even then are their views or opinions truly heard?? I find this hard to believe..

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  • @ Louise curran Byrne … I just read your 10 reasons to vote ‘no’. My god are you actually serious. Seriously cop on to yourself. By now every eligible voter has received a polling card, to which is attached the actually wording of the planned changes to the constitution. Where are you coming up with vaccinations and birth control?

    Reply
  • Very good piece and it is a welcome relief to have a coherent argument put forward on why to vote yes rather than the childish personal attacks that many yes advocates and “respected” commentators have engaged in. I am yet undecided, see bad points in voting no but also in voting yes, I still am trying to weigh up the lesser of two negatives!

    Reply
    • The constitution needs massive reform in the area of the family. There’s no doubt about it. This referendum is the governments attempt to try and avoid issues such as parental rights, unmarried families and gay rights. All of these issues need to be addressed. One of the main arguments for unmarried and homosexual couples to get equal rights to married couples is the effects marriage discrimination has on children. A yes vote would effectively neutralise this argument in the future.

      This referendum is nothing to do with children in danger. The laws are already there to protect children. They are used daily by Gardaí and the HSE. This referendum is about the government getting a win while at the same time avoiding issues that need attention.

      Reply
    • It’s tricky, that’s why I’ve decided to vote no, as it can all be ironed out, improved and not rushed..
      Waiting a few more months won’t hurt to get this right or better.

      Reply
    • Sean I don’t think a yes vote will neutralise arguments for unmarried families and gay rights. No-one is saying this referendum will solve all problems, but it is definitely a step in the right direction. Giving children more rights will not rule out giving rights to gay and unmarried families in the future.
      This referendum is about children. It is about giving children a voice, a right currently denied to them. It is about giving children in long term foster care the chance of a stable loving home, a right that is currently denied to them
      Vote Yes for children’s rights

      Reply
    • Also Shayne, this referendum has taken over 10 years, what makes you think a no vote will only mean a few more months??

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  • Just curious how many of you guys who will be voting ‘no’ have ever had any direct involvement in a child protection case?

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    • A thumb down for asking a question? Brilliant! Says a lot!

      Reply
    • Why Joe ? What difference would that make ?
      Have You ?

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    • @elaine unfortunately it’s an all too regular occurrence. You ask why, well it’s simple. ideally when it comes to making a life changing decision wouldn’t it be great if those making the decision actually had some form of experience or knowledge in the situation. The problem for me is that the vast majority of those telling you to vote NO fail to realise that this change should it be passed will only ever effect a tiny number of children, the small number who need it most. I happen to spent the last ten years teaching in areas where I have just about heard it all. Everything from quite simply neglect to sexual assault to drugs / alcoholism / prostitution. Until now the state has often failed many of these kids, legislation being one reason and resources the other. At least now there is an opportunity to correct one of the problems. If a yes vote saves one children from an abusive home then it’s worth it.

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    • Equally, I have heard concerns from someone working with the HSE and foster kids that the Government will use the new system to place children for adoption instead of leaving them in foster care where they receive counselling and various other support services. Saving the government 12 million or so a year and placing the onus for providing the support on the adoptive parents. Not sure if I believe this but it is surely a worrying thing if it was to happen…

      Reply
    • Joe
      Nobody has told ME to vote NO . I have read all there is there and made up my own mind .
      I am not involved in conspiracy theories , I just have used my own intelligence and can see that this is a bad referendum and so I will vote NO.

      Reply
  • Just a simple observation that the distinction between the Constitution and Legislation is very blurred in this debate. Just because the Constitution says that something is a guiding principle of the State doesn’t mean that the article can be parsed by the Oireachtas to legislate for any old totalitarian nonsense. More clearly stated, the Constitution provides guiding principles and the Dail and Seanad debate and legislate. I’m pretty sure that the politicians of this country have more sense and cop on to legislate for the nonsensical nightmares of the No Campaign. We may have proven ourselves guilty by neglect and omission in the past from everything from clerical abuse to wild west banking, but this is far from actively pushing the sinister agenda the No Campaign would suggest. The amount of decent, well-meaning and, more importantly, experienced people advocating a Yes vote leaves the fair-minded with little option but to follow their lead.

    Reply
  • @ Joe you are right, any Of the no people don’t seem to be the ones working directly with these children at risk in need of a voice, to me it seems a lot of people voting no are doing so as parents and thinking of their own families and whose children have loving concerned parents, not thinking about our most vulnerable children and young people in society who unfortunately don’t have family like this,it’s time to get rid of the decade old saying.
    ” Children should be seen and not heard” I will be voting yes, as a Parent and someone who works with children.

    Reply
    • No , I do not think so Sharon . You should not be generalising .
      People are not stupid , neither are they insensitive. I will be voting NO.
      My professional back ground would suggest that maybe , I should vote yes , but I will not be emotionally blackmailed. This referendum is wrong. I will vote No to protect children and their family.

      Reply
  • Shayne, this amendment isn’t changing parents’ rights. Article 41 will remain in the Constitution, unchanged – this recognises the Family as the primary unit of society and obliges the State to protect it.
    All this amendment is saying is that in *exceptional cases* where children’s safety or welfare is at risk, the State has to step in and protect the child – but always keeping the child’s rights in mind.
    There’s also a requirement that courts listen to children’s views in cases – custody, adoption, guardianship – that affect them, and that decisions affecting children should not be made without considering the child’s best interests.
    This is a simple and sensible amendment. There’s an awful lot of scaremongering going on, for whatever reason, but this remains a straightforward and long-overdue step towards helping our most vulnerable. That’s all.

    Reply
  • Regardless whether its a yes or a no this government has not committed one extra euro, one more social worker, one more SNA for the care of the vulnerable children they claim to care about. If we had a vote to force the government face up to IT’S responsibilities in caring for children I’d campaign for it myself. As it is I’m in the no camp.

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  • What saddens me the most about this campaign is the small minded cynical views of the no camp…to say that a foster parent open their homes to children for “the money”
    I think this insults every foster parent and foster child in Ireland. Do these people not realise the vulnerability of children in foster care?
    John watters is an embittered man, he choose to have a child with sinead o’connor, he is insulting his own teenage daughter that he feels she cannot make a decision, by saying children cannot make decisions. Is this because she choose to stay with her mother over him?
    Additionally, the fact the biggest hypocrite group youth defence are in the no camp is the biggest reason to vote yes!!
    In their eyes, a foetus has more rights than a adult, but yet a living child has less rights than an adult!!!

    Reply
  • Great article. Very helpful contribution to the debate. Thanks Colm.

    Reply
  • In short there are both good and bad points in the children’s referendum bill & area’s that it fails to address at all.

    My honest opinion is that;

    if we pass it, it will be enshrined in law for better or worse. There would be little chance of getting it changed for years.

    Or;

    If we reject it, we can get all the main concerns addressed and clarified. Then we will have the Children’s best interest at heart.

    As much as I would like to help, I can not vote yes and risk our parental rights under law in order to help the foster children secure family status.

    So I am voting No to actually secure a better deal for children, as a rejection would mean all the issues would need addressing before a re- run of improved legislation.

    This government are pushing it through.. Don’t be guilt tripped into giving up your legal parental rights..

    A No vote is not a vote against children, its a vote to get a better deal for children.

    Reply
    • What risk to parental rights? This referendum is about giving children rights, nowhere does it undermine the rights of the parent, or the rights of the family. Article 41 will remain untouched- The State recognises the Family as the natural primary and fundamental unit group of Society, and as a moral institution possessing inalienable and imprescriptible rights, antecedent and superior to all positive law.

      Reply
    • The referendum is a cynical popularity vote and nothing more. It introduces no change to children in danger. They threw in the adoption part so that people who can see threw their popularist ammendment would vote to give adoption rights instead.

      Reply
  • Mmm I remember my youngest daughter ,well grown up & a mother herself now, complaining bitterly about being ‘abused’ because she was expected to wash-up; and I recently found an apology note from her elder sister when she ran away (for a few hours). Kids in court? Oh I don’t know!!

    Reply
    • Ann Marie, I’m not sure what your point actually is. My understanding of the proposed change is that the views of the child is listen to, depending on the age and maturity of the child, it does not mean that the views of the child will be acted on, just that they are listened to, A child is anyone under the age of 18. I would also be very surprised if you didn’t listen to children until the reach 18. I know that I try and listen to my children, obtain their views and opinions and discuss different options and explain any decisions made. I believe that this is a fundamental duty of every parent, to educate their children and help develop their social and personal development.

      Reply
  • I agree with everything you have said. How do we address the cyclical nature of sexual abuse? Will legislation prevent child abuse? given the fact the Rape Crisis Centre reported 25yr delay in reporting this behaviour. I believe the trauma of child abuse is too great for children to deal with and it is only in adulthood it can be dealt with. We all know it is wrong but the adults concerned are far more powerful and manipulative working on fears and anxieties of vulnerable child. Sexual predators lurk in darkness in places where one least expects. For these reasons I think legislation will not have desired results.

    Reply
  • Posted the wrong link will post the right 1 one now and you 10 reasons too vote NO!!!

    Reply
  • 10 REASONS
    These are the 10 Reasons we believe you should vote no in the Children’s Rights Referendum.

    As we are not funded as an organization, we are unable to send this pamphlet to every home in Ireland. Fortunately, some concerned citizens have stepped in and volunteered to try to distribute “10 Reasons” nationwide.

    Ordinary citizens are so concerned that they will print off our pamphlet at their own expense and take to the streets to hand out leaflets and discuss the Referendum with other parents.

    If you would like to become involved, please send an email to Sharon@APS.IE who is co-ordinating the nationwide distribution. A few hours of your time handing out pamphlets or distributing them in your neighborhood could make a huge difference.

    Also bear in mind that you need to register to vote so make sure your voice is heard by registering.

    10 Reasons to vote No in the Children’s Rights Referendum

    1/ Your legal right under Article 42.5 of the Irish Constitution to decide “Best Interests” for your own child will be handed over to the State. Parents will be reduced to Caregivers under the UNCRC.

    2/ Your child can be placed for adoption against your will. You will not need to be accused or convicted of any crime and the arbitrary decision can be made my one person. The entire process will take place in secret Family Courts and you will be gagged and prevented from speaking out.

    3/The State can decide for example to vaccinate every child in Ireland, and the parent, and even the child have no say in the matter. You do not need to be consulted or give permission. Joan Burton has already hinted that Child Benefit will be tied into vaccination records, this could be extended to school admission.

    4/ The State can decide to give give Birth Control to children of any age, even if they are below the Age of Consent. The State can bring children to other countries for abortions without parental consent and even if the child disagrees. (X case, C Case, D case)

    5/ The UN and the EU can make any laws for children without consent of the Irish Government if it wishes. This allows unelected people in the EU and UN to write Irish Laws without prior notice. This removes what little Sovereignty Ireland has as a nation.

    6/ The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child is no mere statement of altruism, it is a legally binding Human Rights Treaty which, if Article 42 is changed, will allow unelected people in the EU and UN to re-write Irish Law. Fully ratifying the UNCRC will now make every other treaty that we have ratified also apply to all Irish Children. The entire landscape of Irish Law may need to be rewritten.

    7/The UNCRC does not give Irish children any privileges they did not possess before. Parents have always vindicated the rights for their child. As children are not autonomous, the State can decide anything even if the child disagrees. Effectively, this also removes children’s rights.

    8/ The “Best Interest Principle” of the UN is nothing more than a slogan. Was it in the “Best Interests” of the 260 who died in Irish State “Care”, or the 500 who went missing and many were later found to have been trafficked into prostitution and slavery? We believe if Ireland is to have a World-Class Child Protection System that “Best Interests” should be replaced with “to the Measured and Demonstrated Benefit of the Child” and it will need to be measured and demonstrated. Despite 760 children missing or dead in a decade, nobody has ever been held accountable. In the Baby P case 2 doctors were struck off and 4 social workers fired, in Ireland 260 dead, 500 missing and nobody was punished.

    9/ The UNCRC only gives “Rights” to children but there is no obligation on the Government to comply. Children in developing nations whose Governments have ratified the UNCRC have the right to food and water and yet children are dying. Children are executed in some countries and the UNCRCC does not protect them, only their “Rights”. Many of the countries that have ratified the UNCRC allow for Child Soldiers, Child Forced Marriage, the Death Penalty for Children and even Female Genital Mutilation. The UNCRC does not protect children, their parents protect them.

    10/ The question we are being asked here is “do you trust the Irish State, the UN and the EU to make decisions for your children when your parental rights have been eliminated?” If you are not 100% sure you must vote no.

    Please register to vote and vote No, our children are depending on you.
    Please also do the research for yourself on our website APS.ie and make an informed decision, our children are depending on you.

    Reply
    • Where did you get this info?
      Forced vaccination of children? Forced contraception?? Forced adoption?!
      Next you will be quoting the absurd storyline from eastenders!!!

      Reply
    • As I said I have yet to hear a logical coherent argument to vote no, where is the reference to forced adoption? I don’t see it anywhere. I know the Government could introduce it in future legislation but I don’t actually see any Government doing it, it’s just a scare tatic to frighten people to vote no. So it’s still a yes from me.

      Reply
    • @ siobeli i get my information through research not from watching eastenders!!!

      @ chair man they are actually changing the law its not all about adoption its about the state having more power over us and they will be forcing these thing and a lot more on our children they are taking away their rights secert courts gagging orders the State can decide anything even if the child disagrees. Effectively, this also removes children’s rights.

      Reply
    • siobeli 08/11/12 #

      Where exactly is the research from? Is it proven reliable source?

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    • @ Louise Byrne Curran this is is the reason I find the NO arguments illogical, you present 10 arguments to vote NO, you are challenged on one of the arguments, forced adoption and then you reply is not about adoption, its about power and control. You go on to say that the Government is changing the law to allow forced adoption, where is the evidence? is there any? or is it just your opinion?

      Reply
    • No it’s not just her opinion. The wording says ” Provision shall be made by law for the adoption of any child where the parents have failed for such a period of time as may be prescribed by law in their duty towards the child and where the best interests of the child so require.” It’s the “any” word that makes it possible for forced adoption. It has been passed in the UK and they now have forced adoption. It’s quite shocking really. Here’s the latest story in the UK – please vote NO. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/9652763/Judge-approves-seizing-a-baby-born-abroad-against-EU-law.html

      Reply
    • @ Thereas …..I noticed that you have rewritten the words of the proposed amendment , what was wrong with the original wording? as this is what we are actually voting on, not your amended version. Why have you felt the need to omit the wording ‘whether or not the parents are married to each other’ after the words ‘any child’.

      Is it OK for the children of unmarried parents to be adopted, but not the children of married parents? Should all children be not treated equally?

      Reply
    • you forgot to add in that child catchers will be employed throughout the country. this will have a 2 pronged effect- taking people with big noses off the live register and collecting thousands of children who the state are conniving to have sent down the mines to work

      Reply
    • I’m ok with parents who raped their child having the child adopted against their will, thanks.

      And check your facts, X from the X case never had an abortion, so to be claiming that she had one with her consent stretches any credibility you had.

      Reply
    • @chairman No I did not change the words – you are talking about 2 1° and I’m referring to 2 2°. It’s the word “any” that will allow for forced adoption.

      Reply
    • This is some of the worst scaremongering I have ever seen! At no point in the proposed amendment to the Constitution does it mention any of these issues: we are urged to “do [our] own research” on the APS.ie, a clearly unbiased source (!) and yet the author seems completely incapable of discerning between a proposed amendment, national law, international law or the jurisdiction of the courts, despite claiming to have “researched” the subject.

      To introduce red herrings like forced vaccinations and forced abortions into a constitutional amendment argument beggars belief; can I assume that the objections to vaccination are based on a misunderstanding of the now infamous Wakefield study on MMR, an study now debunked and retracted by The Lancet; even the smallest amount of genuine research would have shown this.

      The author of the “10 Reasons” has also demonstrated a surprising lack of understanding of the process of law writing: it is implied that only large institutions like the EU and the UN have vast hordes of unelected law makers. The same system exists right here in Ireland: civil servants, employed based on their skills as lawyers, policy analysts, educational experts and consultants are the ones who actually write laws. To imagine that members of either House actually draft legislation themselves is laughable.

      These are just a few observances on what is a poorly researched, poorly articulated, sensationalist piece. Any comment or tirade is gratefully accepted.

      Reply
    • This is some of the worst scaremongering I have ever seen! At no point in the proposed amendment to the Constitution does it mention any of these issues: we are urged to “do [our] own research” on the APS.ie, a clearly unbiased source (!) and yet the author seems completely incapable of discerning between a proposed amendment, national law, international law or the jurisdiction of the courts, despite claiming to have “researched” the subject.

      To introduce red herrings like forced vaccinations and forced abortions into a constitutional amendment argument beggars belief; can I assume that the objections to vaccination are based on a misunderstanding of the now infamous Wakefield study on MMR, an study now debunked and retracted by The Lancet; even the smallest amount of genuine research would have shown this.

      The supposedly researched listing also point to the fact that the author has little or no understanding of how laws are actually written. Legislation is extremely complex to develop and draft. To suppose that Ireland is any different to the EU or the UN in that unelected functionaries write laws is quite alarming. The Houses of the Oireachtas employ some of the finest lawyers and analysts to write laws; this important task is, thankfully, not left in the hands of those that make up the elected representatives.

      These are just a few observations on what is a poorly argued, poorly conceived and poorly researched piece of work. And now let the tirades begin!

      Reply
    • This referendum is a sop to the UN charter on the rights of the child, and must be read in conjunction with the government spin. Also most people think that the so called experts in our courts who will be making reports to the courts are experts and professionals, however they are not. Neither Social workers nor psychologists in this country are overseen by a professional body, as is the case with doctors or say nurses. They are self regulating and this is the reason they are never sacked when they foul up. they investigate themselves, and there are no official bodies to complain to if they act in a illegal or wrong way.

      Reply
    • Those are all myths- check out the Yes for Children Facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/CampaignforChildren) for a full rebuttal on every single one. I have posted an example of two of the rebuttals they give which will hopefully demonstrate emotive and scaremongering tactics vs. reasoned and logical argument

      3/The State can decide for example to vaccinate every child in Ireland, and the parent, and even the child have no say in the matter. You do not need to be consulted or give permission. Joan Burton has already hinted that Child Benefit will be tied into vaccination records, this could be extended to school admission.

      This is not true.

      This amendment will NOT lead to forced vaccinations on children as parents will continue to have primary responsibility to care for their children and make decisions for them including whether to have them vaccinated. Intervention to override parent’s authority would only happen in ‘exceptional circumstances’ where a child’s safety or welfare was at risk. In reality, compulsory vaccination could only arise through legislation.

      4/ The State can decide to give Birth Control to children of any age, even if they are below the Age of Consent. The State can bring children to other countries for abortions without parental consent and even if the child disagrees. (X case, C Case, D case)

      The amendment, if passed, will NOT change the law in relation to contraception in any way.

      This statement in relation to abortions is NOT true. No change will be made to Article 40.3.3 of the Constitution which guarantees the right to life of the unborn. Ireland’s constitutional position on abortion will remain unchanged. The amendment proposes to delete Article 42.5 only and insert a new article, Article 42A.

      Reply
  • the true purpose of this referendun is to allow state agents the power to take any child they want and to totally remove the rights of parents. i ask everyone to vote no

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  • The state tends to fail in pretty much any endeavor so thanks god kids have parents. And as for society, my neighborhood and people I hang out are great. All one needs to do is to work hard not to end up in a knackerville or god forbid one of those state provided estates and you’ll be fine in terms of the society.

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  • Chair man – we have seen in the case of St Pats how the state lives up to its responsibility to vulnerable children. It simply does not. It makes overworked and under resourced social workers carry the can for them. They’d prefer to pay a few fat cat bankers millions rather than employing a few extra staff in any if these institutions. All fine words but no substance.

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  • Anna D 08/11/12 #

    For some balance, something from the ‘no’ camp: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfGdAQb8PZg

    In summary, John Waters and Cathy Sinnot argue that according to the wording of the proposed article, the rights of the child will be “paramount” over the rights of the family. They say that the insertion of the new article and the removal of the current article, means that authority over “all” children (not just vulnerable children) will be moved from the parent to the state.

    Of note, Waters explains that according to 2004 statistics, children were more likely to go into care because of economic reasons than abuse or neglect (23% versus 22%).

    There are four parts to the proposed new article, one regarding adoption. Waters argues that forced adoption is a contentious issue and refers to reports by Telegraph journalist Christopher Booker, outlining cases akin to child snatching in the UK.

    If this referendum is passed, article 42.5 will be removed, which many experts argue already compels the state to protect children and help families in difficulty. According to Waters and Sinnot, its removal will mean the state is no longer responsible for helping a child within their family.

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  • the true purpose of this referendum is to allow the state and its agents the power to take any child and to remove the rights of parents. i appeal to everyone to vote no to this amendement.

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    • A serious question, should the State not have the right to remove children from the care of their parents if they are in danger of abuse or neglect? What is the paranoid fear of the State actually living up to their responsibility for a change.

      Reply

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