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Dublin: 10 °C Wednesday 22 May, 2013

Column: 10 places where the Budget’s axe needs to fall

We can’t have our cake and eat it, warns NAMAwinelake – here are the areas where unpalatable savings will have to be made.

NAMAwinelake

THE GERMANS ARE an intelligent people, and it wasn’t by chance that Dr Merkel – with her PhD in chemistry, quantum chemistry to be even more impressive – suggested that the Greeks hold not one, but two elections on 17th June, one to elect parties to government and the other to stay in the eurozone (EZ).

She was in effect telling the Greeks that you can’t have your cake and eat it, or rather you can’t vote for anti-bailout parties and still expect to stay in the EZ. Yet this apparent contradiction is the Greek position, it seems likely that anti-bailout or more accurately, anti-Memorandum, parties will feature amongst the most successful in Greece’s election in two weeks but the overwhelming majority of Greeks want to stay in the EZ. Having your cake and eating it.

We can sit back and tut tut at the Greeks with their stereotyped corrupt and lazy ways, sure in the knowledge that it is indeed human nature to want it all, but before we get too self-righteous, we might want to stand back and take a look at our own finances and near-term economic future. We don’t need a crystal ball; thanks to the EU/IMF we have a Memorandum of Understanding which sets out the adjustments that have to be made to the country’s finances between now and 2015.

It’s not pretty. We need adjust by €3.5bn in 2013, an additional €3.1bn in 2014 and an additional €2.0bn in 2015. So in 2015 we will have – in that one year alone – €8.6bn of an adjustment compared with today. Apportioned to the 1.7m households in this State and that’s €5,000 per household in that one year alone. The adjustment won’t all be new taxes and charges, it will be reductions to social welfare and to public services, but an average of €5,000 it will be. In a state where research shows that nearly half of all households have less than €1,200 per year of discretionary income, you can readily see the nightmare that lies ahead.

And just to hammer home the seriousness of the adjustment, capping the adjustment at €8.6bn requires us to grow our economy, in GDP terms, by 0.7% in 2012 and 2.2% in 2013 and 3% in 2014 and 3% in 2015. According to the back of the envelope calculations on here, we will not see any growth in GDP this year following downgrades to UK, US and EU forecasts of growth. Who knows about 2013-2015? It could be better than forecast but you would have to say at this stage, it could also be worse.

And despite these facts – and they are facts, just consult the IMF/EU Memorandum of Understanding, though the GDP growth projection is an estimate – it seems that no group, corporate or social, in Ireland seems to be receptive to the adjustment coming from their income, be it income taxes, charges like property and water, social welfare, public sector pay, wealth tax or corporate tax – yes corporate tax. So tut tut for the Greeks wanting to stay in the euro but at the same time wanting an anti-Memorandum government, but tut tut also for ourselves for thinking we can have it both ways as well, that we think we can freeze our standard of living at its peak and not offer up one step to retreat from that peak standard of living.

So what needs to be done?

The usual reaction to governments trying to make adjustments which might target YOUR pocket is to group together, protest and resist, both before and after an adjustment is made. And that oftentimes works – witness the success of unions, of old age pensioners, of disabled groups and less visibly the legal, medical and accounting professions in this country. But when the adjustment required is so great, and when it comes on the back of five austerity budgets, the result is going to be EVERYONE takes a hit. And that means:

1. Wealth tax The next time you get hold of a United Left Alliance politician, rub their noses in the Sunday Times or Independent rich lists and demand that they tell you how they would tax wealth on individuals whose names, photographs and sources of wealth are chronicled in these “Rich Lists”. The truth is that for most of the super-wealthy, their wealth is either outside Ireland to begin with, or is mobile.

Once you get down to the common-or-garden wealth of €10-20m, you’re usually looking at individuals whose companies have been successful, and the wealth is tied up in the company. How do you get at that wealth? You can tax corporate profits more than at present, but that is a touchy subject or you can tax shareholdings. Do the latter and you will quickly find the shareholdings transferred outside the State. Of course you can try to stop the movement of wealth, but if you find a way of doing it, there are 100+ countries around the world which will want to hear from you, because from the US to the UK, from China to South Africa, ALL governments want to hold onto control over taxation on their citizens’ wealth but none has been able to effectively stop the mobility of wealth.

Maybe the ULA has a novel approach, but unless it involves turning Ireland into a police state, it ain’t gonna happen. Or at least not on the €10bn per annum scale suggested in some quarters. More modest taxing may be acceptable and economists and political parties have produced “plans” which might see €1bn a year extra collected.

2. Income tax I can tell you now that this Government was talking out of its backside when it gave a commitment not to raise income tax. You can expect to see increases to rates or reductions in allowances, or changes to tax bands. It is going to happen. Equity would suggest that the higher paid be taxed first and most. And in both France and Italy there have already been increases to the taxes of the well-paid. In Ireland, even the curmudgeonly Ryanair boss, Michael O’Leary has conceded he might have to pay more tax, but he has also been clear that if you tax people too much, particularly the very well paid, and they’re outtahere.

In the UK, they have recently REDUCED the top rate income tax from 50% to 45%, despite the UK’s deficit being at the same vertiginous level as ours, at nearly 9%. Are the Brits economic illiterates or is it just Tory Toffs instinctively protecting their own? Or is there a calculation which shows that a reduction in the top rate of tax encourages more income generation and more income tax, or that it encourages earners to locate in the UK and spend their income here? So you can expect the higher income earners to pay more than at present, but in the end we will need tax the average earners getting €30-40,000 a year, more also.

3. Social welfare If the standard weekly unemployment benefit in this country is €188 in three years time, when the projections are that we still have 11% unemployment, then you’ll know we’re stuffed. That’s not to say that €188 per week is an adequate benefit in an advanced society, but when it is twice the level of our neighbour’s which has unemployment of 8.5% today or 6.5% in Northern Ireland, the sad truth is that needs must, and we can’t afford such a large bill to support economic inactivity.

4. Public sector, salaries, allowances and pensions need to fall and redundancies will need to be centrally managed and not left to individual choice. The Ireland of the €30-40,000-including-allowances-a-year garda, the €35-45,000 nurse and the €45-55,000 teacher will not survive the next three years. Nor will the €200,000 a year consultant or €160,000 a year county manager. But if anyone thinks it will just be the senior public sector workers that will shoulder the adjustment, then the numbers just don’t add up and savings from those on €100,000 salaries won’t be enough. That means the Croke Park Agreement needs earlier intervention than is planned when it expires after 2014.

18/5/2011 Anti British Royal Visits to Ireland

Gardaí during the visit of Queen Elizabeth II last year – but are their salaries and allowances unsustainable? (Photocall Ireland)

5. Charges and levies Forget the blether about the new charges and levies being to expand and enhance existing services, the truth is they are to help fill the deficit gap, though promoting the charges with a fig leaf of some social justification is seen as a political necessity.

There is no rule that the Property Tax should be an average of €300 or €1,000 per annum. It’s simply a part of the mix to close the gap and might be lower or higher. Before water metering is implemented, it should be proven by the Government that reduction in average consumption outweigh the cost of metering, otherwise we should just have a flat charge and if needs be, invest in the treatment, distribution and disposal of water.

6. Bank debt Despite the blether since last Friday about the “Yes” vote in the referendum “paving the way” to a deal on bank debt – so far we’ve shelled out €68bn, or 40%-plus of GDP, 50% plus of a more representative GNP, on bailing out our banks – the view on here is that we are in a weaker negotiating position today that we would have been with a “No” vote.

We might benefit from a scrap that falls from the German-Spanish negotiations, but aside from that, there is little scope for a debt-writedown and as for the cost of the debt, we’re paying 3.5% on bailout funding and just over 4% generally on Ireland’s debt serving, so aside from getting a second bailout to fund future promissory notes or debt rollover, there is little scope for relief here and even if we get a second bailout, it won’t be significant for the cost of current borrowing. So what now? The Government needs to provide answers, facts and detail but the view on here is that our prospects have taken a turn for the worse with the “Yes” referendum.

7. Legacy personal debt including mortgage debt – it is ridiculous to impose further austerity on people who already are totally insolvent, and in the Irish case, the insolvency is mostly a function of the property boom and negative equity is likely to affect 400,000 out of 1.7m households today. Personal Insolvency legislation which is reforming, accessible and in line with developed-country international standards is required now. Bad news for banks and creditors, better news for the indebted and society at large.

9/12/2009 Budget Day 2009

Workers in the IFSC in Dublin (Photocall Ireland)

8. Corporate tax – 12.5%, that’s the Irish standard corporate tax rate. But it’s more than a rate, it’s a brand and has been defended at great cost. Why is business so lightly taxed? Because in our country which bypassed the Industrial Revolution – thanks Britain! – we have some catching up to do, and we calculate that the ancillary benefits of employment creation, the attraction of international expertise and innovation, the creation of hubs in the Information Age and the domestic benefit of spend on everything from premises to VAT all outweigh the light tax take.

Of course this upsets our bigger European neighbours. But will Ireland in 2030 still compete as a low tax economy, or will the country have developed a domestic economy which is not reliant on multi national Information Age investment? A year ago, I would have said it was taboo to contemplate raising corporate tax rates, but with such a huge deficit to close, does this country have a choice?

9. The cost of politics Leadership in the battle that lies ahead to close the deficit should come from the top, and there is little evidence of sacrifice in our political system where our politicians earn more than those in countries providing THIS country with its first bailout. As with every other tribe, there will be resistance to cuts and reforms, but if, in three years time, a TD in this country is earning €93,000 a year, plus unvouched expenses plus political pension rights plus the incurred expenses for constituencies which average 30,000, then we’ll know we are stuffed.

10. Put a rocket up the backside of the National Consumer Agency (NCA) One of the areas that should be cushioning the colossal adjustment that lies ahead should be the reduction in consumer prices. A year ago, the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, the almost deliberately laid-back Richard Bruton announced the merger of the NCA with the Competition Authority.

Not only has that not happened but we still live in a country where there is little or no competition for mortgages for those in negative equity and there are still amazing differences in prices between this State and Northern Ireland. It seems we might need antitrust action on a scale of that in the US in the early 20th century to deal with our legal, medical and accounting professions. We are just now seeing consumer prices declining in line with the reduced circumstances of the nation.

There needs to be a national conversation now about the shape of future cuts. You might expect Labour to seize the opportunity today to lead that conversation, as it is that political party that will face a wipe-out at the next general election on the back of austerity. The train has left the station for the Labour party, and already it has passed 1990s-ville in the polls, next stop is GreenParty-ville, so it is this party that has most to lose and should be arm-twisting its partner in coalition to deliver a united message about the colossal challenge facing the country, and to deal with the adjustment in an efficient and equitable manner.

Remember the above adjustments depend on a 10 per cent economic growth between now and 2015, and growth is vital, but growth alone will not close such a colossal gap. But you can expect snake-oil salesmen and women to deflect attention from the budget adjustment in coming months, with the distraction of growth. But when we can’t borrow more and where we can’t increase our deficit, it is difficult to see where we can source or attract the funds for growth.

We can run down our strategic National Pension Reserve Fund which still has €5bn in it, though if we do, we have nothing to act as a buffer at the end of 2013, we can try to encourage private pensions to invest more in Ireland but in that, we face the same challenges as every other country trying to corral its pension funds for the national benefit, we might get a few hundred million from the European Investment Bank and we might get a couple more billion out of NAMA which will need to be repaid by 2020, but even if all of that creates 50,000 jobs,  we’ll still have 12% unemployment equating to about 250,000 and we’ll still have 380,000 on the Live Register. Government generated growth just won’t be enough.

Time for an honest national conversation to start, because in the real world you just can’t have your cake and eat it.

NAMAwinelake is an anonymously written blog covering developments in Nama, property, banking and the economy. This post originally appeared here.

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Comments (177 Comments)

  • If salaries and social welfare are to be cut then you have to force the cost of living down…otherwise the whole thing is unsustainable…fact

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  • All very well. But if all that comes to pass I will be homeless. And I am middle class.

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  • I’d bet my mortage that the politicians will still be creaming their expenses and excess salaries in three years. The only exception would be Ming as he was true to his word and gave half his salary to charities!!!!!

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  • I think much o this article is fair enough if we accept that bank debt is out own. But Are you kidding me? Letting the axe fall on people in 30-40k again? These are the exact wage group that are caught up in those ridiculous neg eq mortgages and taking on all these ‘gap filling’ charges for water and household. I believe anyone up to 50k should be given a goddamn breather as these are the exact people who actually go out and spend their wages, which has a long run benefit not only for supporting business but in taxes then collected by the gov. These people keep the cogs turning.
    One more point Of contention about the gardai- how interesting that you use that photo from QE2. Their average wages you say should be a target yet it’s been a complete uphill struggle trying to get paid for that work and since then they have experienced numerous station closures with more pending, with the excuse that gardaí should be more mobile anyway- only then available vehicles in the road have been reduced also. A perpetual squeeze is already in motion here- there’s no question of us having cake!
    it’s about fairness, distributing the burden in a respectively equal fashion and bein treated with respect by those we elected to govern.

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  • Very good article. Tell it like it is.

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    • Very good article even if it is anonymous. Wish I could claim I wrote it.

      But I’m surprised that so many people don’t know that these things need to happen… It’s not rocket science these beliefs should be stuck in our gut by this stage…

      The last government and the current one have prolonged the misery that every citizen in this country will suffer as a result of inaction at every level…

      Croke park agreement is a disaster…
      The banks still not loaning to SME and as for new mortgages….
      Breaking there own pay cap for there new personal advisors
      What happened to abolishing the Senate
      Etc etc…

      But what really sums it up is that the politicians in this country are on way more pay than the leaders of the countries who have loaned us the money…. They loan us money to pay ourselves more than themselves… It’s just NUTS….

      the pain hasn’t even started yet… But now the yes vote is in its coming… Good morning everyone…

      Reply
    • I thought the article was sh*t!

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  • The author (why does the ‘About the Author’ only identify him or her by a Twitter handle, and not by qualifications?) neglects to note that Ireland is suffering a major and growing division between rich and poor, with the Gini ratio widening disastrously.
    Taxing wealth does not mean taxing only the super-rich, by the way. It also means a fairer division of tax between the poor and the well-off.
    Cutting the wages of the lower-paid public servants and cutting social welfare is not going to help us out of recession; it will simply remove more money from the economy, since the low-paid spend all their money, while the rich are able to squirrel theirs away.
    And as for inability to tax those super-rich who keep their money offshore, the Americans deal with their tax fugitives more robustly than Europeans.
    This article ignores the only solution to the recession: jobs, and especially jobs that will bring money into the country from abroad, export-generating jobs.

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  • My suggested Cut, would be the Child “Protection” System in Ireland at an annual budget of €580 Million a year.

    The system doesn’t protect chidren for a start, it harms more than it helps. The only beneficiaries are the “Professionals” and Vested Interests Groups like Children’s Charities (96 0f them, all funded by somebody).

    This is the ONLY Growth Industry left in Ireland, numbers in “Care” have almost doubled in a decade and nobody even questions why, there are now about 26,500 “Cared For” Children in Ireland. I have to use the word “about”, as 500 have gone missing in a decade, 96% of the missing have never been accounted for.

    The number of criminal convictions for child abuse and neglect have not changed in decades, the popuation of Ireland has not doubled, so what is the justification for the numbers of children being taken into “Care”?

    Taxpayers are paying €4,800 per week, per child in Residential “Care” and over €339 per week, per child, tax free, + Child Benefit, + Medical Card, + expenses. That’s not even including the others that are in “Special Care” at a cost of hundreds of thousands a year, for what one Operator describes as “at best a Babysitting Service”, that operator billed the State for €14 Milion last year.

    And does it really benefit children? most of the chidren are dumped on the streets at age 18 by their loving Foster “Carers”. 43% of the Irish Prison Population have been in “Care”, the suicide rate, rate of unplanned pregnancy, mental health issues, sexual assault and death rate of Children in “Care” are considerably higher than children in the General Population. Next time you meet a homeless youth, ask them if they were in “Care”, 68% were.

    But don’t worry, the Irish Government have a solution to this, they intend to give chidren a magical new set of “Rights”, only problem is they need to remove the rights of parents under Article 42 of the Irish Constitution to allow for Forced Adoption, adoption against the will of both parents. Forced Adoption hasn’t worked in the UK or USA and most European countries would never allow this to happen. Will the Irish people be stupid enough to give up their rights? Of course the Children’s Charities are behind this 100%, already gearing up to offer new “Services” and licking their lips as the budget will be increased soon. If you want to see how this will work visit http://www.NoTo42.blogspot.com Forced-Adoption.com or IrelandsSecretCourts.wordpress.com

    I hope this gives you a flavour of how badly run some Irish Institutions really are. I could talk for days on the topic and would love to have a very public debate on the issue but nobody want to upset the applecart. The incompetence level of Irish Government is staggering, and Public Servants are not entirely to blame. Our convoluted laws and practices are wastful, people sit all day compiling paperwork that will never be seen by anyone. We have a Public Service that is unsustainable, we cant afford it.

    People who say cut back on Social Services should examine in great detail, the effects of what you are suggesting . At the moment, 30% of all Irish Children are living in consistent poverty, do you really want to see Soup Kitchens set up outside Schools? Parents are starving themselves to feed their children but still, children are going to bed hungry and not getting breakfast in many cases. Meanwhile, the “Professionals” are raking it in from the €580 Million budget as children go hungry. Have we completely lost our humanity in this country?

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  • We are shagged so! Will the cost of living and mortgages be reduced in line with all this??

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  • Scary but a reality that must be addressed.

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    • Let’s see, the rich cannot possibly be taxed, corporation tax cannot possibly rise however working class wages, social welfare and services for ordinary people MUST be cut. New media, same old class biased message. Someone above asked why aren’t you running the country? Well you are, at least you have an identical view of the world.

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    • Henry on the news that France is raising tax rates for the wealthiest many of those affected are moving to London where they are lowering tax rates for the wealthiest. 45% of 10 million in the UK exchequer is more than 0% of 10 million in the French one.

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    • Social Welfare – “the sad truth is that needs must, and we can’t afford such a large bill to support economic inactivity.” Except that social welfare payments are re-invested through the goods and services that the people on it, do spend. Unlike the supper wealthy who can trot around the glob and spend their money wherever they wish, these people spend their money IN IRELAND and usually very locally! The author of this article has blinders on and a clear agenda.

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    • On the wealth tax issue. In 2001 Russia abandoned progressive taxation in favour of flat taxes. They saw income tax revenues increase by 25%. The impact was so marked that 11 other European nations followed suit.
      Is the intent of a wealth tax is to punish the wealthy and successful while driving, much needed, wealth out of the country. As pointed out above there is a lot of European wealth currently looking for a new home. French business people and businesses are fleeing to Britain, Switzerland and as far as Singapore.
      http://www.voxeu.org/index.php?q=node/941

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    • Funny how Europe couldn’t come up with a treaty to stop capital being moved to avoid tax. If our tax exiles want to go to London let them at it and leave the space for less corrupt economic models. I’ll even chip in for the bus fare. Its not like they do anything useful is it.

      Reply
    • Funny how the real world doesn’t work like that. Something to do with monetary union, free movement of goods and services, human rights, stuff like that!

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    • Yes sean, reality it seems is just for the poor. Again we couldn’t possibly ask the rich to contribute, that is ‘impossible’ after all the ‘risk takers’ need to be incentivised by more wealth and of course bailed out when risks go wrong. For the rest of us it’s the usual threats and ‘realities’.

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    • censored 07/06/12 #

      If you actually look at the figures you will find that most of the tax take is actually paid in by the higher earners already. That’s not to say it’s a large percentage of their disposable income, but killing the golden goose is not a recommended strategy.

      Reply
    • Which figures are those censored? Is it tax paid by higher wage earners or tax on profits? If is tax on earners presumably they can’t run to London as their jobs are here? And normally such uncited figures tend to ignore Ireland’s status as tax haven and European money laundering centre. But back to wage earners, most have to pay extra charges much higher than what tax would be such as childcare and VHI. However in the end really its not so much wage earners that are the problem but the o’reillys and o’briens of this world.

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  • Yeah like the government will take all this into account in the next budget!.. They’ll continue to make the poor poorer, the rich richer & eliminate the middle class entirely.. Then it’ll be just rich & poor.. Just the way they’d like it!!

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  • LOL! Shoulda, coulda, woulda, blah, blah, blah… Step 1: Extortion by way of getting an ignorant peasantry to assume your debts, real and imagined, because they’re so very ignorant. Step 2: Allow the ignorant peasantry to divide and distract itself with worthless “analysis” and “opinions” while the heist is in progress. Step 3: Profit!

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  • Scarr 06/06/12 #

    Time we all went back to college, upskilled and got out of this dump.

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  • The most effective form of wealth tax has always been a property charge, the wealthier you are, the bigger your home… And you saw how the irish reacted to that. Can you imagine the reaction to a reduction in social welfare? There would be riots.

    We are far too corrupt for any of that to be implemented.

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    • the wealthier you are, the bigger your home…? I don’t recall that one. People reacted to a flat rate charge that hurt those who could least afford it most, with the proceeds going to service debt that was never theirs in the first place.
      It’s probably the first clink of light insofar as it shows the Irish people have got a tolerance level beyond which they will react and say enough is enough.
      To be honest I don’t think this Government has the will to implement an equitable property tax.

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    • We don’t need a wealth tax. What we need is a single tax rate that everyone must pay without exception. No tax dodging schemes for the ultra-wealthy. Oh, and if they try to attempt capital flight, just tax it before they leave.

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    • Oh of course Rommel… All the wealthy live in hovels and the poor live in mansions. How did I get it so wrong!

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    • Did the Government introduce an equitable property tax? I never said anything about hovels and mansions. What did the Irish as you say react to?

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    • P Wurple 06/06/12 #

      I’ll repeat your post for you… “the wealthier you are, the bigger your home…? I don’t recall that one.”

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    • Read your own first post then my post should make sense to you. No such tax has been introduced so how can the Irish have had a reaction to it?

      Reply
    • Denis 06/06/12 #

      I think we all know the Can Pay! Won’t Pay! crowd couldn’t care less that it’s a flat rate charge it’s just a handy fig leaf.
      Once the full value based charge is introduced next year the same crew will be out complaining that they won’t pay that either.

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  • Why are you people not running the country?

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  • The author seems to have forgotten one small detail in his analysis, namely just how much cutting people can or will tolerate before they are pushed to Grecian style reactions. Time and time again we hear how if you tax the super rich then they will simply move away. It’s about bloody time governments got together to put a stop to this mobility of the funds of the super rich. As long as they have the option to move their money with impunity they will NEVER pat their fair share of the tax burden.

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  • Fagan's 06/06/12 #

    We can do all of the above, but unless the ECB steps in with massive stimulation then the Euro zone is finished. Spains bank’s alone require at current reckoning 300bn. We’ve seen how this figure always rolls up. German, French, Italian and Belgian banks also need to be re-capitalized. This is even before any state has a penny of state debt resolved.

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  • Just an observation here, whenever there is an article such as this everyone come out attacking tha Gardai, nurses, teacher etc. People are very brave hiding behind their iPads and such. How about attacking the Politicians who are screwing most of the public finances, the HSE bosses on huge money and no health service to show for it. How about publicising all the people who were rehired after taking redundancy. What about all these so called advisors to ministers. I don’t see any anger towards the extortionate salaries paid in RTE and the rip off tv licence fee. What about the Banks? If you people put as much passion into the real problems blighting our country rather than airing petty grievances because you got caught with no tax on the car then maybe we could get back on our feet. Cue all the red thumbs!!!!!

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  • Cut foreign aid. At present our aid budget is €660 million a year. It makes much more economic sense to cut money we give to other economies than to take even more money out of our economy. Share the wealth when we have a budget surplus but don’t borrow to give money to charity.

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  • Here’s a typical example of the kind of warped thinking that has Ireland where it is: Indo “Meet the Irish banker who earned €6.3m after turning down AIB top job for €500,000″ http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/meet-the-irish-banker-who-earned-63m-after-turning-down-aib-top-job-for-500000-3130615.html “An Irishman has been named as one of the 50 best paid executives on Wall Street after he turned down the chance to run bailed-out AIB, where salaries are capped at €500,000 a year. Donegal-born Liam McGee is CEO of Hartford Financial Services, one of the biggest insurance and wealth-management firms in the US.” – and so on.
    We’re clinically insane. Money is the only way we can value things; we have lost all real values.

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  • Introduce workfare, require the long term unemployed to graft for their 200 euros a week tax free.

    Use them for beautification projects, make Ireland a pristine place to go to help bring in those tourist dollars.

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    • You mean Workfare like they did in UK this week? where they bussed in hundreds of people to be Marshalls for the parade and made them sleep with homeless?

      Or perhaps people on welfare who are already living below the poverty line will be forced to pay bus/train fare or parking to become a slave for some businessman, maybe even a bank, the same one that wants to reposess their house? I think you have fallen on your sword on this one, you know very little out what “Real People” are suffering.

      Slavery was abolished a long time ago, let’s keep it that way.

      Reply
    • No, I don’t mean workfare like that at all.

      Don’t scaremonger.

      I mean people who are otherwise idle and receiving money from my taxes to sit around all day or to stand on O’Connell Street shouting abuse at tourists or fighting with eachother to actually do something worthwhile for the betterment of all of society.

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    • Nothing for nothing. It should be compulsory for one half of a married couple to do 25 hours a week community service if your getting social welfare. This not only helps stop abuse of the system. It adds a reality of work to the persons life. They may acquire the skills needed to get a job.

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    • I don’t see the slavery in requiring people to give something in return for the money made available to them – it would probably be pro-rata the minimum wage anyway.

      Maybe the fulltime professional couch surfers would see it as slavery, but the rest of us who have to go to work to pay for their welfare certainly wouldn’t.

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    • That is for people who receive community service. Are you saying that those unfortunate enough to be unemployed, trying to support themselves and their families should be treated like the petty criminals in our country?

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    • mattoid 06/06/12 #

      €188 / €8.65 = 21.7 hours

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    • @Andrea. No. They’re not criminals. Single people, living alone, on welfare have a tendency to get up later and later, go to bed later and later because they have no reason to get up. A system where you do some work for your welfare gives someone self esteem, self worth and could help stave off depression

      I’m NOT saying have them out at the side of the road wearing ankle chains and an orange jump suit

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    • So communism basically. Where everyone is guaranteed a job by the state?

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    • mattoid 06/06/12 #

      @Eoin
      Far from communism. Basically a system where every able-bodied person is guaranteed enough work to live a basic lifestyle (which excludes a car, nights down the pub, foreign holidays etc.) but which also incentivises them to work harder and better themselves if they want to improve their lot and enjoy a more comfortable lifestyle.

      Reply
    • People carrying out their community service don’t wear bloody jumpsuits! Part if not all of their “sentence” is doing the work you are talking about. Why should an unemployed person have to do that in order to claim barely enough money to exist? And again with the generalisations….how do you know the time unemployed people go to bed and get up in the morning. I am currently unemployed (not entitled to benefits) but I’m up at 7.30 every morning.

      And you say the single people should do some sort of work to “earn” their benefits. So, married unemployed people with children shouldn’t? Major flaw right there. Discrimination against those without families so it could never happen. And those with children couldn’t afford to have someone take care of their children while they earned their pittance.

      Cop on!!

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    • @Scrap Croke Park Nothing for nothing? As I’ve pointed out earlier in this thread, I’ve paid enough PRSI and USC to fund five years of social welfare at current rates. Sorry to burst your pompous little bubble, but I’m not living out of your taxes. Demanding that after almost forty years of work and a self-funded postgraduate education I’m going to work for nothing will not get you anything other than the abuse you deserve. If I want to volunteer for community projects, then that is my decision. After all, that is semantic meaning of voluntary. Oh, and my the way, I already give time to two local community projects.

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    • @Andrea. People doing community service SHOULD be wearing orange jump suits.

      I gave the single person as an example but I think it’s probably more important where a married couple with kids are involved to have one of the participate in a scheme like that. We have pockets around the country where there are four generations of people who have never worked. It’s important for those children to see one of their parents actually go to “work”. I don’t know why your so mad.

      And the single people I know in this situation DO stay up all night and sleep all day. If youre up at 7:30 and entitled to nothing you’re either a formerly very successful business woman who is highly motivated and more power to ya, or ur a young one living with Mammy and Daddy

      @Tom. U make a very valid point. If you’ve contributed that much you should be allowed to use it up before any harsher regime applies and given you’ve worked for 40 years, surely you’re near retirement

      @both of ye: I’m only pointing out that we have a welfare system that in many cases, discourages work. A single person I know gets €188 a week and €700 a month mortgage interest payment from the state. That’s above minimum wage. In addition this particular hypochondriac gets a medical card. He recently turned down a job offering 28k pa

      I also know a couple with 5 kids who get approx €500 a week because of the extra child payment u get per week per child. In addition they get medical card for all. They get €760 a month towards the rent. And similar in children’s allowance which I know they would get even if one was working. The wife needed a new buggy for the latest addition and the community welfare officer handed her a wad of cash to go buy it. They get back to school money every year and come sept, the eldest girl starts college – free.

      So I’m saying level the playing field a bit. People who are genuinely looking for work have my utmost respect. But we need a system to sort out the rest

      I wish both of u luck in finding work, hope it works out

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    • @Scrap Croke Park, what’s that smell??

      Mortgage interest relief is all that is available on the supplementary welfare allowance scheme. They do not pay off the mortgage, only the interest.
      They also count your home as means.

      Now. According to the citizens information website, the maximum permitted rent levels around the country are considered the benchmark for how much of your mortgage will be covered by the state.

      At present, the county that gets the highest payout is Dublin. The maximum their rent is allowed to be in order for them to make a claim is €475 for a single person like the one you describe. €525 for a couple with no kids.
      The maximum pay out that they give you is €35.70 per week (I know this as this is what my partner gets), its aroud €70 p/w for couples. The rest you pay out of your €188 per week.

      So your story about your single friend getting €700 is quite frankly, impossible, if they submitted a claim for that much to the Community Welfare Officer they would be flat out refused (I know this from my own past experience with the CWO) The maximum permitted rent levels are NOT what you get paid, they’re how much your rent is allowed to be in total – and just try finding accommodation at those rates that accepts rent allowance, it’s a challenge..

      As for your people with 5 kids analogy, here’s mine. My sister, her husband and their 5 kids in primary school live on €350 per week – TOTAL. That’s groceries, bills, mortgage, school supplies, kids and fuel..

      I think you have either
      a) Misunderstood how the social welfare system works
      b) Are basing your statements on out of date information (many of the extra allowances for extra kids and even the tiny bit extra for twins have been butchered)
      Or
      c) Are just spouting random figures with no basis in reality whatsoever in order to grind an imaginary axe at those who are really suffering..

      Care to tell us which?

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    • @shanti. I never said they pay off your mortgage did I? And how can they count your home if it’s in negative equity?

      On the single person example I’ll have to go back and ask as it’s been a while but he WAS getting 700 pm

      As for your married example I know for a fact your talking shite. Here’s the list of benefits

      Something that might help ur sister on her 346 a week:

      http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Schemes/JobseekerSupports/JobseekersAllowance/Pages/ja.aspx

      “Maximum rate for people aged 25 or over
      New and existing claimants Personal rate Increase for a qualified adult Increase for a qualified child
      Maximum rate €188 €124.80 €29.80″

      That’s 461 euro for married couple with 5 kids not to mention the 700+ for children’s allowance. Rent allowance of up to 800 a month is on top of that. As is back to school allowance and anything u can sponge off the CWO

      So get off my back – literally. I can’t carry u, ur partner, ur sister, her current jockey, or her 5 kids any more.

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    • Excuse me. My sisters jockey? They’re married 11 years thank you. My brother in law has always worked, since he left school over 20 years ago, my sister is considered a qualified adult on *his* dole, she doesn’t get her own because they are married. They had all their kids while he was working, then he got laid off, second time in 10 years the company he worked for packed up and left the country. They bought their house like everyone else, within the means they had at the time. They had to move down the country just to be able to afford a house and my brother in law worked out of county just to have a job so really, take your assumptions out of this.

      It’s that sort of ill founded “us and them” mentality that is destroying our country.

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  • Depressing reading. Our debt burden is unsustainable until that changes we will be caught in this trap for ever. Again another article dealing in just austerity no ideas on how to generate jobs and spread the burden. With out job growth which is the only way to increase government revenue in real times.

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  • Resistence is futile enda, you will be overthrown! Since 2008, what has been reformed or reduced in politics? They are a mafia, cartel and we can’t take anymore! Time to swing the axe on Politicians necks!

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  • Shame it wasn’t a No vote…

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  • Social Welfare;
    In my locality it’s the unemployed who are falling out of the pubs on Monday afternoons, in the bookies every day and taking foreign holidays to places such as South America. I know what I’m talking about I know these people. How can they do it? Where is the money coming from? From my experience It’s the ordinary worker who buys potatoes, turnips, cabbage and mince in the supermarket, while the unemployed buy pizzas, convenience foods and fizzy drinks. Our politicians need to be in touch with reality. In my area less than 10% of voters from the ‘socially deprived’ areas votes in the last general election and still PAYE workers like me have to support their lifestyle!

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    • Tell you what Margaret I’m living the life on €188 a week I don’t smoke can’t afford to socialise my only luxury is putting €10 euro by every week for Internet .. Not saying your wrong though just don’t know how unless they live with parents.

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    • Spot on

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    • Strange, but I’d find it very hard to put a roof over my head, feed myself and do all the things you claim the unemployed are doing. You also seem to have a magic method of determining who is unemployed and who is not at your local supermarket checkout. Until recently I was a PAYE worker, and paid enough PRSI and USC to cover my unemployment benefits for at least half a decade, so you aren’t supporting my lifestyle. Take your generalisations and stuff them you know where!

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    • Margaret,
      I imagine that the small minority you talk about were doing exactly the same at the height of the boom. Or maybe you think everyone on social welfare is a sponger?
      As Tom above says the vast majority of people currently on the dole have paid their taxes to cover their assistance, and deserve better than people making sweeping generalisations based on hearsay.
      If you feel that strongly pick up the phone and report their extravagant lifestyles to social welfare inspectors.

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    • Probably a certain class of thieves!!

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  • supporting unemployed benefit is better than avoiding a cut to taxes in order to cut it. people on welfare spend all of that money on essentials and it all get recycled back into the economy. money saved via tax cuts may be saved or hoarded – there is no guarantee it will be spent like there is with benefits.

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  • Why no mention of reform? Reform is not cutting back on services provided but reorganising so that you can provide the same services at a lower cost. How about looking at our hugely oversized dail? How about looking at the wages and benefit structure of TDs and top public sector manage,ent. Our current President has multiple retirement packages from government positions….why not cap it at 60,000. Surely he could survive on that. How about looking at the Seanad and whether it is serving a purpose. We only created it because we copied the British system. How about looking at integrating all our public service sectors? Make our processes in the public sector more simpler. Why not tax shell on anything they extract from the corrib oil field? We may signed off on ownership but we can tax just like the Norwegian government did? We need reform not just cuts.

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    • I think we should forego elections. Simply outsource the Dail to the lowest bidder. Maybe some Indian call centre might like the contract. They’d probably do it for a fraction of the current cost and do a better job.

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  • Shame this article wasn’t released before the sheepish 60% decided to enshrine such austerity into our constitution forever!!!

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    • I thought Ireland already was a police State? We are told what to eat, how to eat it, when to eat it, we are told how to vote when to vote and what to put on the slip, we are told what we can take for our illness and how to take it, and more to the point there is NO HEALTH SERVICE to back any of this crap up. Our “police” are more concerned with collecting revenue that they are fighting crime, our “thraffic police” are idiots more at home in the keystone cops than in the real world, full of aggression and anger, what happens when the Irish finally decide to stop being sheeple and get off their knees and protest? Very simple, the morons in blue will bust your head with their iron bars, split you with their radios and run you down in their worn out cruisers. Meantime the nest of traitors in Leinster House will be planning the next “raft” of punitive charges on the poor and the hard pressed and appointing some brainless thug from the bog like our Phil to take the blame, and what will we do? Why the same as we always do, read the rantings of the media which are owned by the traitors in Leinster House and believe every lying word they say. Time to stop bleating like sheep and start roaring like a lion, a good first step would be to decorate a flagpole with Enda the puppet.

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    • Shame the other 40% didn’t take a more pragmatic view of our predicament and realise that money can’t magically appear from thin air, and we need money to continue running the country whilst we make the necessary (and tough) adjustments required to balance the books, as described in this piece.

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    • The funny thing is mattoid, that’s exactly the banks got us into this situation – pulling money out of thin air.

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  • Workfare just undercuts other workers’ wages. Real jobs are what we need – jobs that bring money into the economy.
    An attitude has risen up – the mean-mouthed Thatcherite attitude imported from our neighbours – that people don’t want to work – yet four short years ago we had virtual total employment.
    We have to stop turning on each other and pointing fingers, and get jobs into the economy.

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    • Nothing wrong with Thatcherism. Privatisation, deregulation and an enterprise culture drive growth. Worked in the UK.

      “Workfare just undercuts other workers’ wages”, Not if the workfare is being targeted at things that aren’t being done.

      “Real jobs are what we need”, From the magic job tree?

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    • Thatcherism worked in the UK? You do understand that deregulation of the financial sector, pioneered by Thatcher and Reagan, is what caused the crisis that we are in at the moment? You have noticed that the UK is in a massive recession at the moment, even though it’s led by politicians who are as far-right as Thatcher was?
      As for workfare, you might want to read this: http://www.tuppenceworth.ie/blog/2010/03/03/the-dignity-of-work/
      Some quotes: “Firstly, [workfare] is of no direct benefit to the economy. It might be nice, socially and aesthetically, to have litter-free streets, or well pruned hedgerows, but sending the unemployed to do such work has no bearing on the economy. Indeed, in the case of any serious work, it denies the private sector a possible contract, thus putting pressure on companies previously reliant on such work, perhaps ultimately putting them out of business. As with the private sector version, there arises the question of demand. How much of the work to which people will be put is actually necessary? There’s only so much litter to pick up, so many hedges to trim. In any case, all but the most basic of tasks will require equipment and supervision. Even with free labour, this scheme would constitute a massive increase in public sector spending, at a time when the common view is that a reduction in same is required … If the primary purpose of unemployment benefit is to keep people going while they search for work, then workfare is of no use. It deprives people of the time needed to search for employment, and where necessary to retrain.”

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    • Thatcherite ‘growth’ was a bubble which led to the crash of 1991, the first visit of negative equity.

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    • Sinabhfuil, I cant believe that two people gave you the thumbs down. Why wouldn’t people support Prosperity over Austerity?

      Makes no economic sence to shrink the tax-base. Must be some of those dreamers who voted Yes to Austerity.

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    • “If the primary purpose of unemployment benefit is to keep people going while they search for work”

      That might be its intentional purpose but in the long term, and I have been referring to the long term unemployed, it becomes at best an escape from work and at worst a bribe to keep people from crime. People who get paid to not work frequently continue to not work. If you pay people to do something, they’ll generally keep doing it.

      “You have noticed that the UK is in a massive recession at the moment, even though it’s led by politicians who are as far-right as Thatcher was?”

      The whole of the west is in a recession, have you noticed? Have you also noticed that the Coalition in the UK is far from being right wing and Dave Cameron is chastised by the more traditional elements of his party for this on a daily basis?

      If tasks can be found to be done, such as painting schools, improving neighbourhoods and so on that aren’t being done because the resources aren’t otherwise available (there being a recession on and all) then any workfare scheme gives participants the satisfaction of a job well done, that they themselves will benefit from, as well as instilling pride in their immediate environment and giving them valuable skills that they would be able to use as the wider economy picks up.

      Unfortunately bleeding heart liberals will continue to keep such people in the unemployment trap to salve their own consciences to try to “help” people while actually denigrating their self worth, all the while patting themselves on the back for their warm spiritedness.

      Further, the levels of growth under Thatcher, despite two recessions, far outstrip any growth rates we could hope to see in Ireland today or in the near future, all despite the obvious blessing of left wing government.

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    • Thanks for clarifying that Damo, let’s get all those lazy bums in wheelchairs, people with mental illness, people with terminal cancer and heart disease and work the A$$e$ off them!

      (doing exactly what nobody knows, maybe breaking rocks on the beach somewhere until they turn it into sand or something. Maybe tending to the garden of the rich bankers who never pay any tax).

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    • “The whole of the west is in a recession, have you noticed?” Primarily because of the collapse of the banking sector, a collapse in part caused by the deregulation pioneered by Thatcher and Reagan in the 1980s, and because of the free-market policies they espoused. And the Coalition in Britain (who I think would be very surprised at being called “far from being right wing”; they certainly don’t resemble any left-wingers I’ve ever known) certainly haven’t made anything any better there since coming to power.
      “People who get paid to not work frequently continue to not work. If you pay people to do something, they’ll generally keep doing it.”
      By and large, seeing as the dole is lower than the amount gained from any full-time paid work, it seems that people will act in their own self-interest and work if they are able to get more money, if there are jobs there in the first place.
      “giving them valuable skills that they would be able to use as the wider economy picks up”
      Picking up rubbish, pruning hedges, and painting walls are valuable skills? Why not pay them a wage, then?

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    • There’s a lot of talk about magic here. The IDA succeeded in bringing “the magic jobs tree” to Ireland in the 1980s and 1990s, when Ireland had no reputation for business.
      We are going to remain in recession as long as we’re turning on each other.
      If Irish people stopped calling fellow-citizens ‘rats’ because they haven’t got work, and went out to look for work that would bring money into the country, if we returned to the Irish principle of cothrom na Féinne and acted together as one to bring work into Ireland, we could conquer this recession.

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    • Damocles 06/06/12 #

      Burnsy, Less of the scaremongering please. If that’s all you have to contribute then the best thing you can contribute ongoing would be silence.

      Jonathan,

      What’s remarkable is that in the 20 years since Reagan and Thatcher left power no left wing heroes have jumped up to stop this awful and nasty deregulation. It’s almost as if they’ve encouraged and endorsed it. Clinton-Gore, with Greenspan in the fed, even bolstered it and raved about how great they were (even though they weren’t). Yet the left continues to point fingers at Reagan and Thatcher as the nasty growth bringing bogeymen. Some people seem to have grown up with the mantra “Right wing bad! Right wing baaaad!” drummed into them, despite the fact that the left did exactly the same things, maybe these things are okay when enacted by left wing politicians.

      The Coalition in the UK is not of the traditional Tory right, it’s increasingly moderate and centrist if anything, although to an ardent leftist anything that is to the right of their position is dangerously so, even the centre.

      Returning to the increasingly knee jerk hatred of asking the long term unemployed to do a fair day’s work for a fair day’s wage:

      “all but the most basic of tasks will require equipment and supervision.”, so more employment for the unemployed, or more responsibility for the existing employed.

      “Picking up rubbish, pruning hedges, and painting walls are valuable skills?”
      Someone has to do it, litter doesn’t pick itself up, hedges grow, self painting walls don’t exist yet. Fridges deposited in the mountains aren’t cubist sheep that’ll walk to recycling centres … Decorating is actually a skill, incidentally, many people are happy to pay people to do painting and decorating if it’s done well. I’ll happily pay a decorator. But then I’m a lazy Thatcherite fat cat, or something, viciously working and pay taxes as I do.

      “Why not pay them a wage, then?” We are paying them a wage. To do nothing.

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    • The point I made about Thatcher, primarily because you brought her up and sang her praises, is that she pioneered in government the neoliberal, deregulation, free market economics that has led us to the banking collapse which has caused the current crisis. Many (not all on the Left) pointed out in the last three decades that this would lead to disaster, but they were largely ignored or dismissed.
      “What’s remarkable is that in the 20 years since Reagan and Thatcher left power no left wing heroes have jumped up to stop this awful and nasty deregulation. It’s almost as if they’ve encouraged and endorsed it. Clinton-Gore, with Greenspan in the fed, even bolstered it and raved about how great they were (even though they weren’t).”
      You must be operating on a different definition of Left and Right than I am if you believe that any of these three represent the Left! From “All The Devils Are Here”: “As a young economist, Greenspan had come under the spell of Ayn Rand … The capitalism that Rand believed in was “full, pure, unregulated, laissez-faire capitalism,” as she once put it, the kind that didn’t put regulatory roadblocks in the way of red-blooded entrepreneurs. Greenspan met Rand in the early 1950s, became part of her inner circle, and remained close to her until she died in 1982 … [She] helped turn him into a free-market absolutist.” (pg.84) The same goes for your description of the Tories as moderate; they may be less excessive than the looney fringe of Tory extremism, but this does not make them any less right-wing in my book.
      “Returning to the increasingly knee jerk hatred of asking the long term unemployed to do a fair day’s work for a fair day’s wage”
      But you’re not asking them to do a fair day’s work for a fair day’s wage. You’re forcing them to do work that they may not be suited to or interested in, which may take time away from seeking for jobs that they are suited to, for substantially less than the legal minimum wage. Again, my point is that if you want them to do this work, why not simply employ them, and give them the legal and financial security that a job entails? Besides, even if they’re gaining their valuable skills, we are in the middle of a domestic demand collapse which is likely to get worse as the economy continues to contract due to austerity. So where will they get the jobs as, say, decorators? Seeing as there are already experienced decorators out there?

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    • Damocles 06/06/12 #

      “You must be operating on a different definition of Left and Right than I am”

      Well quite. Left and Right are relative and contextual terms. Clinton-Gore were American Left, Greenspan was American Right having been originally put in the fed by Reagan, but Clinton-Gore didn’t remove him as they might if they were as American Left as they made themselves out to be. Of course American Left and Right are not the same as British Left and Right and certainly not the same as Irish Left and Right, where you have Sinn Fein and the Social Party on the left, Labour, FF and FG floating around the centre and no Right to speak of whatsoever. The British Left and Right, post Thatcher have drifted to an area slightly right of centre and as a result truly extreme authoritarian parties have popped up to try to fill in the vacuum, without much success. Of course if one comes from a system where there is very little truly right wing politics then anything over the centre will appear right wing, maybe even dangerously so. Your fear is almost understandable. Your obdurate bias and intemperate language not so much.

      “this does not make them any less right-wing in my book.”, I imagine it’s a very short book, with pictures.

      “You’re forcing them to do work that they may not be suited to or interested in, which may take time away from seeking for jobs that they are suited to, for substantially less than the legal minimum wage.”

      Actually mattoid cited 20 hours a week at minimum wage, all tax free. That seems generous, better for the rest of us than €188 for 0 hours a week, also leaving half the working week for them to look for other work.

      “my point is that if you want them to do this work, why not simply employ them, and give them the legal and financial security that a job entails?”

      But I don’t want them to do this full time for ever, I want them to be given added motivation to go out and find jobs, a year of unemployment and a free hand out hasn’t motivated them maybe this will.

      As to suitability and interest, what better motivator? If they show interest, aptitude and a willingness to learn something else to do their dues to society, I’m sure we’d all be all for it. If they wanted, for instance, to do their dues in learning to be an electrician, say, then let them spend their 20 hours learning that and getting experience in that all the better for the individual and for society as a whole. From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. We seem to have the second part covered, how about the first?

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    • “Your obdurate bias and intemperate language not so much … I imagine it’s a very short book, with pictures.”
      I’m not sure what insulting me is supposed to achieve here. So, in other words, having a different opinion from you about what compromises Left and Right (and, by the way, I am quite well read in both politics and economics) means I’m biased, intemperate, and stupid. Is this the way you debate with everyone? But, to be honest, I don’t have all day to trade insults with you, as your abusive and intolerant tone is quite tiring to read, and I have to go to work.

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    • Damocles 06/06/12 #

      As ever the leftist finds the flimsiest excuse for offence and dances away.

      Your labelling mainstream toryism as “looney fringe” and your attempts to contrive my desire to help people back into employment as forcible labour were of course completely fair and temperate, not a lowering of the tone at all. It must have been me that lowered the tone, I wasn’t simply joining you. My apologies for having done so.

      Nor did you contrive to read a “tone” into some plain text.

      Furthermore, not much from anyone on alternate routes to growth either just “This won’t work, we need jobs.” Whither come these jobs? No one knows, instead we must continue to pay people to sit idle in the long term.

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    • *cough*
      Aren’t the majority of jobs you are suggesting get done by the unemployed currently done by council workers?
      Perhaps not out in the rural areas but in urban ones they certainly are..
      Are you seriously suggesting undercutting these guys and putting them on the dole?

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  • Can we get this very informative article broadcast on Rte like those biased crap referendum ones got pumped out. PLEASE :-)

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  • Damocles 06/06/12 #

    A great many people seem to be saying that the proposals made so far won’t work.#

    What they don’t seem to be doing is making proposals of their own and explaining why these other proposals will work.

    So. In a stagnant economy how do we create jobs from nowhere?

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    • Here’s a suggestion for you. Explain how taking money out of the economy by taxing those who already spend almost all of their earnings back into the economy is going to pull the economy out of stagnation? You don’t tax or cut your way out of a recession. I challenge you to provide one example of where that strategy has worked.

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    • Damocles 06/06/12 #

      First could you point out where I suggested taxation as a growth strategy?

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    • Damocles 06/06/12 #

      And once you’ve done that, Tom, perhaps you can explain your own suggestions for job creation as initially requested.

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  • Agree with the article. However we need to change the law to stop jailing people for financial crime and leave the spaces for violent offenders and burglars. We need to abolish concurrent sentencing. Crime will rise over the next fee years. We need a system to deal with it. We shouldn’t have a system where someone gets stabbed on the street by a person with 50+ convictions. If you break into 30 homes and get 6 months on each count we shouldn’t see you for 15 years

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  • Some good points here, but I can’t agree with the author on the salaries of nurses and garda, the CSO puts puts the average earning per week at 869.54 Euro or just under 36,000 a year, no too much I would think. Do please do away with allowances for everybody in the public sector, as they are a nonsense.

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    • Sorry not as much as that More like €690- and that’s before tax an levied

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    • My mistake got my keypad all muddled up, indeed €690 is very little after taxes

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    • Just to clarify the allowances in the public sector are nonsense not the public sector itself.

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    • You’re not listening Pierce2020. The lady said €690 before taxes, not after …

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    • You’re right, I wasn’t listening. I did read it though and €690 is very little after taxes have been taken.

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    • I don’t know the type or extent of every allowance, but there are definitely some debatable

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    • @Pierce- What do you work at!?! Gardai, Nurses & Firemen work night shifts, weekends & Bank-Holidays while you are more then likely off!! Unsociable hours allowances are paid for this work! Why carry it out otherwise!? If we scrap ALL allowances what do we do then with serious injury needing medical care, junkies robbing our houses or needing to be cut out of cars after traffic accidents on a Bank holiday Sunday!?!

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    • Sorry I cut myself off there. What I was going to say was that it was debatable whether all allowances should be scrapped. If measures were taken to improve basic wage for lower paids then I do think they should be scrapped, but not without that sort of compensatory adjustment. Some of these people are supervisors or have taken on extra duties and these small allowances are supplementary to the basic wage their staff/ coworkers are getting. If you do extra or are in charge, you should get paid more!
      Of course then there is a level of public servant who are on a handsome wage yet are still creaming miserable allowances.
      Either way, I agree the subject of allowances needs to be addressed but not with a blanket bludgeon.

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    • Agreed there should be a debate, and of course Nuffsaid we do need people to work unsocial hours as I do, but shouldn’t these allowances be captured within the scope of a salary. I don’t really want to get into extreme examples of people getting unwarranted allowances for things because of legacy agreements or knowing how to play the system, this has been covered many time before. The €1.5bn in allowances paid over their salaries to public sector employees is in my opinion something that needs to be looked as it would in any private company

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    • To be honest, I think the main value in this article is to start a debate. It’s about time we decided what we should prioritise our spending on (backed up by real figures, which I think is the best thing this article does is consider how much we’d actually raise) and what we’re willing to negotiate on.

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  • Social Welfare – The rate may be nearly twice that of our neighbour, but there rent allowance is 100% of the rent paid, not a fraction of an unrealistic capped amount as is the case here. Comparing apples and oranges may be interesting, but it isn’t accurate.

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    • Well said.. Many people are of the mistaken assumption that rent allowance pays all of your rent. And looking at rent rates on daft would have you think it’s a handsome payout.

      Except the maximum permitted rent rates for the country as laid out here:
      http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/supplementary_welfare_schemes/rent_supplement.html
      Are the maximum the rent is *allowed to be*. Now, try going to daft and entering that amount as your maximum rent that accepts rent allowance on daft..

      Once they approve your rent allowance, there’s a “minimum contribution”, of around €30, but usually the contribution is much higher than that.
      And of course bills etc are also paid out of the €188. So I for one cannot understand where these stereotypical dole claimants get the money for their much hyped lavish lifestyles.. It’s certainly not from dole payments alone..

      Reply
  • Good grief is this what passes for journalism? An anonymous opinion piece?

    Who at the journal.ie thought this was a good idea?

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  • something needs to be done with the rats that don’t want to work and have been on social welfare for years. they are a drain on the state and a drain on everyone that is working. and there is no point crying if you can’t afford to live your life the same as if you were working. you need to adjust and tighten the belts. some people (the rats) think they deserve everything for nothing, unlike the hard working folk of this country. the sooner they realise that they deserve sweet fa, the better

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    • every country has people who just wont work, its a fact of life. And dont the tabloids like to play on that one – they show one family seemingly ripping off the welfare system and infer all people on the dole, or single mothers are the same,
      Doesnt mean you have to stop trying to get them to work, but all the schemes in the world wont get at least some of them working. But the ones that do benefit can often turn out to be shining lights – people to be proud of.
      Got to stop generalising – all people on the dole are not the same.
      The only thing you can generalise about is that people who generalise are idiots

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    • mattoid 06/06/12 #

      Did you just make a generalisation Dave? ;-)

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    • Spotlight fallacy.. The error of reasoning where someone takes the tabloid hyped up stereotype of a certain group of people and applies it to the entire group. Related to the guilt by association fallacy and the fallacy of composition.

      The people you speak of make up a very small percentage of the people claiming benefits in this country. The vast majority are people who would love to work, to be able to afford to do the things they want to do, and have the self esteem that having a job brings. The ones who lost their jobs because our economy went kaput.

      And your disdain for rats shows true ignorance to the ways of the rat. If a person were to have rat traits they would be intelligent, industrious, meticulously clean, have strong interpersonal skills and be extremely loyal and caring. They wouldn’t be sitting idle they would be keeping busy. It’s only old, male rats who are lazy.

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  • It’s a joke that a single mother gets a free house benefits etc. put 2 or 3 in the one house to save money. a culture has developed where certain people have kids to claim benefits housing etc. I know there are a lot of genuine cases but there are also a lot of leeches

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  • If tax is not paid or a game of chess is started regarding due tax simply revoke their passports.

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  • If people sat down and thought about how they can lift the country, either through volunteerism or entrepreneurship, they could make a difference. Sitting in your chair crying whilst the ship is sinking is not going to do any good so use some imagination and put your hand to the pump and help bail out the ship. Using your energy and drive for something positive for the country will be the way out of this mess. There are so many people starting businesses because they want to get ahead. I’m doing my bit ! Are you ?

    Reply
    • i tied to start a business 4 yrs ago,working from home in my own workshop and before i could even put an advert in the local paper the govt wanted 10 k for public liability insurance, the local council wanted 12k for ‘registering a business premises,and also wanted 9k as payment for public ‘on street parking’ despite the fact that i live down a cul-de sac,and the only ‘parking’ would be in my own premises, my home insurance company wanted another 3 k per year as i was using part of the house as a business, that was before i even inquired about registering for tax or v.a.t. . i approached the local enterprise board for help and advice, they suggested asking my bank for a start up loan, the bank wanted me to produce 3 years tax receipts,when i explained i was just starting out they said “we cant help you unless you have 3 yrs receipts” needless to say i didnt bother setting up,,,,,,,,,

      Reply
    • MojoRise 06/06/12 #

      It’s a sad little country Eric…. Seems the only way to get on in this country is to be corrupt or be on the black market… Very sad indeed… I wish u the best in the future and as I said before on the journal in ireland u need to be able to do it all by yourself to succeed here…. don’t look to the quangos for help only wasting ur time…

      Reply
  • This ‘article’ reads more like a pub rant than a considered piece of journalism or analysis-just another semi-pissed Cassandra ‘telling it like it is’. And anonymously no less. Would that these brave seers identified themselves, though their position on the political spectrum is obvious to everyone except, perhaps, themselves.

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    • I wholeheartedly agree. When the author suggests the relatively lowly-paid Gardai and nurses will have to take a pay cut, that’s when I switched off.

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    • Can you suggest an article that addresses the issue of the gap in public finances in a more satisfactory way? This one has lots of merit.

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    • @Terry We could start by repudiating the banker’s debt. It isn’t true sovereign debt. We could also move away from the money-as-interest-bearing-debt privately-run monopolistic scam that keeps nations in debt in perpetuity and move to a value-based currency issued without interest and without monopolistic private profit.

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  • Please implement it all government, take all the pain up front and close the gap in 1 year

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  • What we need to do is put people on the dole working for say twenty hours a week doing community service tidy towns etc. this will benefit the country and the unemployed as they will get out meet new people feel good about themselves etc.

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    • Seriously, I’m amazed that this hasn’t been implemented yet.
      Everyone who I’ve spoken to has the same state of mind – No money should be free!
      Ok, there are exceptions – like when people actually loose their job and are dismayed.

      I think after 6 months on the dole – bam, community employment whether you were looking for a job or not.
      People have alot of good skills out there – much better skills than some people in employment!

      Kick off most of those sponger councilmen and get some proper hard working laborers in!

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    • Apparently the sort of workfare you are suggesting is evil right wing Thatcherism.

      All together now:

      Right Wing Bad. Right Wing Bad.
      Right Wing Baaaad. Right Wing Baaaaad.
      Baaaad. Baaaaad.
      Baaaa. Baaaaa.

      Reply
    • Here’s an example of a workfare project:

      http://commondatastorage.googleapis.com/static.panoramio.com/photos/original/33261760.jpg

      This was built on the basis that people shouldn’t be given money for doing nothing.

      The whole ‘workfare’ argument is pure nonsense. We don’t need workfare. We need real jobs.

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    • Baaaa Baaaa

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    • Nally g,
      I’m guessing you’re not unemployed. If people want to go out and meet new people etc there are plenty opportunities to do so through a long list of volunteer agencies such as Ageaction etc.
      Why not channel the unemployed into education instead of tidy towns?
      The vast majority of people unemployed have paid their dues through PRSI etc and no one has the right to use them as slave labour.

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    • Read my comments above before you think I’m going to undergo mandatory volunteerism at the behest of some I’m alright Jack type. I’m not scrounging. I’m getting back what I paid into the system over almost 40 years of work. It will take a long time before I’d feel morally obliged to do something like what you suggest. Oh, and I know how to meet new people and feel good about myself. I don’t need an incentive.

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    • That’s right, sack all the county council workers who currently do that and replace them with people claiming benefits, what a fantastic idea!!

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    • I agree; let’s ‘put’ everyone else out to work kissing asses! And planting roses outside nally’s house!

      I’ll just sit here feeling smug at my cleverness!

      What next for me – the Dáil? The Seanad?

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    • Right so lads! Let’s not give them odd jobs to do.
      Lets give them high paying jobs and give them fk all salary!
      Let’s build a new 100+ strong business where the entire staff work for free!!

      I was on the dole – going spare.
      There is fkn nothing to do when you’re on it – apart from get to know the names of the secretaries while you hand them 10 CV’s a day.

      I have been on the dole – I’m going by what I and many many other people I spoke to wanted to do!
      This isn’t an idea from a ‘I’m alright Jack’ type.

      So STFU until you have a better idea and stop fkn nay saying!!

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  • Let’s see, we can’t possibly tax the rich or raise corporation tax but working class wages, social welfare and services MUST be cut. New media same old class biased message.

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  • On the nuts. The social consequences involved? Oh dear…

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  • Finally, someone stands up to low-paid public servants and the unemployed

    Yes, that was sarcasm

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  • Some polluter pays taxes would be good – tax stuff that is proven to be disastrous for the environment and future life on earth, tax greedy and uncaring overuse of resources – the kind of I couldn’t give a shit behaviour that will make our children’s future awful. Tax junk food since we are supposed to be so very concerned about childhood and adult obesity and attendant increases in public sector health spending to deal with the consequences… Tax cigarettes up to the hilt – it’s heartbreaking to see so many young teenagers taking up that evil weed – if it was ridiculously expensive they wouln’t be able to, and it would help adult addicts to quit too… This way we can save a fortune on our health system, since the biggest killer is still I think cardio vascular disease / heart disease…

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  • Its no wonder the republics bankrupt, too few people working to pay the best welfare system in the world.67 pounds up north for a single person on the dole while down south its almost 190 euro s, good God who would want to work getting that money. I pity the working few working their arses off to subsidise this bill.

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  • great to see my comments removed ,true fascism!

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  • Completely agree with you on that Karl.

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  • Good article, however I doubt the government will heed any of this advice!

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  • whoever wrote that article must be right wing in saying social welfare should be cut why dont go after people who’re not paying their fair share of taxes

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    • Excellent article, well done anonymous!
      I would also mention the FTT (Financial Transaction Tax) which the Irish Government is simply ignoring when we know that it could bring half a billion per annum in additional revenue. This to me show that the government also wants the cake and eating it. On one hand they hammer the people using the argument that we need the EZ but when it comes to their fraudster friends at the IFSC or Central Bank, then it is not acceptable to apply a ridiculously low tax (0.01%) on Financial transactions….same as with the Corporate tax. Disgusting

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  • Dear God namawinelake, I’ve already challenged you on this one and you’ve yet to get back to me. JSB is E188minus RENT ALLOWANCE SUPPLEMENT. We don’t get a full E188/week! No wonder I can’t get a job, I’ve misinformed people such as yourself propaganding nonsense without putting full facts that seem to inconvenience your argument. Then having the sheer arrogance to say that people in my position don’t want to work.
    I am sure you will be delighted to know that my mother is supplementing me and my savings are gone. And no, I didn’t live the “high life” with a credit, ever.
    On your next article kindly explain to me how I am suppose to pay for goods and services and how I am suppose to pay for travel to interviews, printing costs etc.
    There are plenty of well off people who caused this recession getting off with gold plated pension, so in future kindly target them.
    This is becoming typical of the Independent, politics.ie and yourselves.Current unemployed people did not wake up on morning and decide to leave their jobs to enjoy being on the dole. Furthermore, I did not do anything to cause my unemployment, I am trying very hard to get a job and I read this c*** by ourselves and the Journal.
    I hope that I do get a job asap and hope it is as far away from here as possible.

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  • See what you are doing there? Telling the truth. That’s why you got obliviated by Irish voters: but when will you learn?

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  • nally g 06/06/12 #

    Tom if I spent less time talking shore you might still have a job

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  • nally g 06/06/12 #

    Unemployed people could use there skills to train people. for example as a teachers aid teaching kids it skills. It would look good on a CV and increase chances of employment. There are a lot of genuine cases however there is a sizeable majority who are quite happy to sit back and sponge

    Reply
    • Where do get off with all the smug suggestions? I am an unemployed third-level lecturer. I am not sponging. I’ve been paying taxes to fund the (mis)education of people who come up with ill-thought-out suggestions like your.

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    • Unemployed people often use their skills to train people as it is, through volunteering with Age Action, NALA etc, so why do you feel they should be forced to do it?
      I take it that you realise that just because you may be paying income tax yourself it doesn’t mean the unemployed should be working for nothing for you at your discretion.
      Your comment that the majority of the unemployed are spongers speaks volumes and is disgraceful. Maybe you’d like to address some of the responses to your comments on here?

      Reply
    • No majority. Evidence shows that it’s actually the minority that fit your description.. But if you will get stuck on a spotlight fallacy as suggested above, perhaps you have been (mis)educated..

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  • Interesting article ,plenty of solutions

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  • Excellent article but I must say I don’t think irish ppl think they can have their cake and eat it. By and large we as a ppl know sacrafices have to be made

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  • Timely thread , provoked by a clear thinking writer . Should we not be considering the slaughter of the sacred cow of land and house ownership ? Bonds issued to current owners of property , redeemable only when the national economy is solvent could be a fig leaf for the nationalisation of land . No one can go forwards with any confidence if they are paying disproportionate amounts for a roof over their heads …..Elephant in the room ? The elephant IS the room .

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  • Knock 100 yoyos of the dole. Anyone who needs more than that can go and lodge an appeal with their local welfare office. I have no problem with people getting a help out if they’ve been recently unemployed, but long term spongers sicken me. Get a job.

    Reply

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