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Dublin: 11 °C Saturday 18 May, 2013

Column: Cutting judges’ pay has a price – and it’s not worth it

A Yes vote on Thursday won’t benefit anyone much – but it will mean a serious compromise to our constitution, writes Sinéad Keogh.

Sinéad Keogh

WHAT VERY FEW people – media, political or otherwise – have focused on in the past number of weeks is that the upcoming presidential election is to be served with a side order of referenda. And one of the two proposed amendments is rather galling (actually, they both are, but to be angry about both simultaneously would become rather muddled. So let’s focus on judges’ pay this time around).

The government would like your permission to amend the constitution. They are currently not allowed to decrease the pay of judges. You might remember the kerfuffle and requests for judges to voluntarily stump up a percentage of their pay a ways back. Some did, some didn’t and the media duly reported their numbers at arbitrary and pointless intervals with obligatory subtext from which you could infer messages like ‘what a bunch of gits those rich old judges are’.

The fact is that we have and do spend money on a lot of pointless things in this country, and every now and then someone cops it and some drop in the ocean is targeted. Only, when the protection of judges’ pay was targeted, it wasn’t targeting spending on pointless things, rather it was targeting something behind which stands stacks of logic and reasoning. Yet, because for once a government could say ‘well actually, it’s not our fault that we can’t do anything about that one’, they did.

What we have seen so far with regard to this amendment is little debate, even less understanding and a complete lack of acknowledgement of the gravity of the matter from all sides. When you do take the time to read up on the proposition, you should find that the arguments for voting ‘no’ build up faster than you can say ‘we’ve been had’.

Firstly, symbolism would triumph at the expense of the protection of the legal system. The reality is that cutting judges pay might, according to figures quoted by Minister for Justice Alan Shatter in The Irish Times three months ago, save us around €5.5 million per year. The per year part of that should be taken with the knowledge that it applies only to serving judges because new appointments can be brought on stream at a lower salary level anyway. Essentially, it’s a problem that will go away with time, unlike messing with your constitution for the sake of €5.5 million. €5.5 million, with the mess we’re in?

‘It’s like saying your child was mostly eaten by a shark’

Were I to suggest an equivalency for the sake of analogy, that’s like saying your child was mostly eaten by a shark but you saved an arm. What you’ve saved is barely worth saving, and you’ve put yourself in danger to get it back. Yes, every little helps, and the government are eroding plenty of cornerstones of belief, cut by cut, from decreasing SNA’s in schools which compromises a child’s right to an education (and often by extension, their right to dignity and so many other things) to giving themselves the right to reduce the pay of judges which compromises the standing of the judiciary by putting their fate in the hands of the Oireachtas in a way that it never was before.

The difference here is that for once you don’t have to march or write letters or get your injustice in the papers and then still potentially suffer anyway. This wrong was considered so wrong, it is thought so stringently that it should not happen, that it has been given protection in the Constitution, and we are presented with that very rare situation in which if the people decide that they don’t want it, it ain’t happening, and there’s stuff all the government can do about it.

Second of all, we can look to the origins and evolution of the situation. The target is arbitrary. Sure, maybe judges’ pay should be cut in line with other pay cuts, but given the solid standing of the reasons why the government didn’t have that power, who perpetrated the witch hunt? It might be easy to look to the media, but it’s also accurate. Find an upper middle class grouping, tell lower middle class people, working class people, unemployed and overtaxed people that they’re being jipped by same, toss all of them into a cauldron and stir. It’s all too easy to upset people who are struggling by showing them the false injustice of someone who isn’t.

‘Oh no wait, it’s an Irish government’

It’s a cut the government have the people on side for so they’re primed to go ahead and make it happen. Surely, surely, they will acknowledge the importance of dealing with a constitutional matter? Surely they’ll farm it out to an independent body, create one, recognise why they ought to tread carefully? Not put themselves in a position of power over what should be an independent judiciary? Oh no wait, it’s an Irish government. What they’ve actually done is present us with a poorly-worded amendment that is as ambiguous as it is insulting.

Judges pay may be decreased by ‘proportionate reductions’ if the pay of others of a comparative class who are also paid from public money is also reduced. Oh can it? Great. So is that a percentage? Is there a limit to the cut? What’s a comparative class? And why are you the one cutting it, Oireachtas? Don’t you get how very much lacking in impartiality you are? Don’t you know anything about the importance of the separation of powers and why these protections were enshrined in our constitution in the first place?

Worse still, that same media who stirred us up to be annoyed about the situation are nowhere to be seen in analysing the proposed constitutional amendment. They’re running around after the seven wonders of the ancient world that are contesting the presidency and trying to stir up their latest round of acrimony (easy to stir, it must be said) and focussing on a position of little power while the threat to positions of real power seem to bother them but not at all.

Oh sure, Morning Ireland had the head of the Referendum Commission on, but if you listen to Morning Ireland you’re probably already politically aware, and we’ve got those ads and those pamphlets in the post, but where’s the debate? Where’s the outrage at being handed something substandard? Where’s our concern for the failings of this candidate for change that we’re supposed to vote yes to? The government are failing us, the media are failing us and we’re failing ourselves.

‘You don’t stand to benefit’

So thirdly, if we acknowledge that the Oireachtas shouldn’t have the power to cut judges pay in order to maintain the integrity of our legal system, but we might also say that judges pay in itself should be cut in line with similar cuts, where do our options lie? Well actually, we find ourselves in agreement with the judiciary. They wrote a 12-page document on the matter, objecting to the wording of the amendment and the manner in which the cuts are to be made but crucially, did not show as much concern for the cuts themselves. They produced that document in July, before the final wording of the amendment was agreed, and yet we find ourselves poised to vote on what remains a flawed proposition.

If your child was mostly eaten by a shark and there’s nothing you can do about what’s gone, then maybe you should look at who the shark represented in that analogy and not be so concerned with saving a severed arm. Vote ‘yes’ to the judicial pay amendment and the salary of the most senior judges will be cut by around 23%. The state coffers will be richer to the tune of €5.5 million per year, for a few years. But not your coffers. You’re not the shark, the state is. You don’t stand to benefit. You’ll still suffer cuts and taxes and degradation of services. Taking money from judges doesn’t mean anyone is being saved from a nasty nip/tuck budget. Worse still, not only are you no better off but in fact you’re worse off, because now you live in a state where the separation of powers doesn’t seem so important anymore.

‘Cold comfort, so send back the plate’

What’s been served up in the form of the judicial pay amendment is a not-even-particularly-well-presented attempt at cold comfort, so send back the plate. They can’t kick you out of the national restaurant they can only try again and present something hotter next time around because you’re a paying customer and you’re paying bloody dearly.

Yes to making cuts at the top instead of the bottom and yes to reform but no to tokenism, no to half-measures, no to compromising the Constitution, no to giving the Oireachtas power it shouldn’t have, no to a lack of debate, no to a shoddy effort by the Referendum Commission, no to being treated like you will lap up any old crap that’s put in front of you. This proposed amendment is nobody’s best work, D- for effort but can do better, and it’s not good enough when it’s the work of the state who owes us a damn better offering.

Perhaps there has been no outcry because we’re too busy watching the seven ring circus that is the presidential race, or perhaps we just don’t care because we think it’s only to do with taking a few quid off some Mr Justice we’re never likely to meet and nobody gets all stirred up about protecting the overinflated pay of an upper middle class lawman who hasn’t felt the bite of recession since his favourite €200-a-plate fundraiser was cancelled due to poor ticket sales when there are more important things.

But actually, it’s about Bunreacht na hEireann, flawed and all as it’s been known to be, and you ought to care about that, because it’s not only Dana’s blanky or some last bastion against the forward march of Europe, it has some ideals in there that we used to stand for and we don’t need a recession of intellect to add to the economic one.

Sinéad Keogh is Commander-in-Chief of pop culture blog Culch.ie and a regular print and broadcast contributor. She edits books as her main job and likes politics, poker and knitting. She can be found on twitter @sineadkeogh.

  • Do you think we should vote ‘Yes’ to the motion on judicial pay? If you’d like to argue the case for a Yes vote in this space, email news@thejournal.ie.

Read more: What are the two referendums about? Your guide to the 27 October ballot>

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Comments (92 Comments)

  • Thank you for the article. Interesting to hear a solid viewpoint. However there are a few things that need to be said. The judges could of took a lead on this by declaring in unison that they wished the cuts applied to there (high) salaries. The judges who refused are really the ones who forced the issue. Judges of all people must see the symbolism, in a republic, of everyone sharing the pain. They cannot allow the perception of ivory towers to persist. There is a huge question mark over the legal system and I do not think it’s fit for purpose. There is ample evidence of ridiculous sentences being handed down, and lengthy waiting periods for justice to be seen to be done. Anyway, the correct way to resolve all these pay issues is for another round of benchmarking. But nobody has the courage for that. The citizen of this country is being given some token referendums to vote on and they both will be passed. Unfortunately we are not been given referenda on the big issues such as Nama and the bailout.

    Reply
  • My opinion on the two referenda here- badly worded, badly thought out and beware granting more power to governments…..

    Okay this is pretty basic – A referendum is needed every time a government wishes to change our constitution- this is becuase the constitution theoretically exists to protect people from the excesses of any government i.e any elected government can only work within the confines of what the constitution sets out. This means the constitution belongs to the citizens(i.e us) not the Government. Whatever government is in power has to get our permission to change it. Lots of things in our constitution are outdated and need to be changed BUT and it’s a big BUT we should be really careful of letting it be changed for trivial issues.

    The two referenda that we are being asked to vote on on Oct 27th are both asking for a transfer of power from the people, us, to the government – that’s at its simplest, they are asking us to give them new powers.

    So the first question is are we willing to transfer more of citizen’s power to the government at this time? My answer is NO – it is far easier to relinquish rights and entitlements than it is to campaign to get them back, so unless we are totally convinced that change is needed then we shouldn’t change it.

    So the first question we are being asked is can the government reduce judges pay in certain circumstances.. (that’s a paraphrasing) Whilst I think judges could well afford to earn less, I think the government should not be given any opportunities to excerpt more influence than it already does over our judicial system – we need judges to be independent and not open to percieved threats from Governments.

    If do we want their pay to be able to be reduced then a differently worded and structured change is needed that lets someone independent set the salaries of the judiciary (like an ombudsman or a independent board). The second issue with this first question is that the wording that this government is asking us to insert in the constitution is very flawed and imprecise- the small amount that might be saved by judges pay being cut would easily be outweighed by the amount the state (that’s us i.e taxpayer’s money) will have to spend on defending the many interpretations that good lawyers or barristers can advance. So if I have confused you- I am saying NO to this one because (a) the principle of judicial independence is really important and (b) because the wording is shoddy and will/may cause problems or court cases in the future.

    The second question is way more serious and again is being marketed as a money saving plan – i.e the government can run it’s own investigations into matters of public importance and as they are telling us that way the would be able to avoid expensive tribunals. But if we allow them the power to run these investigations then they would be able to make findings about ‘ ANY PERSON’S CONDUCT’.

    Now the reasons that this really has to be given a NO vote by any thinking person is that it seems in its wording to be an attempt to change the constitution to remove some of people’s most basic human/ civil rights – the right to a fair trial, the right to be considered innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, the right to a good name etc . Now I am not a conspiracy theorist and even if you are the biggest fan of the current government, bear in mind that this change to the constitution will outlast this and probably many more governments . Once this dangerous change is made it would take another referendum to remove it so again even if you trust Irish governments with this power it is very unwise to give away such a basic set of guiding principles that belong to us, and put them in the hands of the elected government or any future elected government- however good their intentions may be.

    Note that also as this wording would seem to contradict various other treaties we are signed up to as a country (ECHR etc) it is quite possible that if and when the government attempts to open an enquiry into any individual that that individual would be able to tie them up in court room wrangling for a very long time becuase of these ‘competing’ rights.

    So therefore something that puports to save the irish public from expensive enquiries could actually cost us a fortune.

    Also and it’s the last point on this, supposedly the Irish Constitution is the highest law of the land = i.e if law was a game of paper scissors stone then the constitution should trump all the other various laws even international ones (other than the EU treaties- which we had referenda on). However a while back Michael Mc Dowell of the PDs made a complete hames of incorporating the European Convention on Human Rights into our constitution and so as a result judges have been very perplexed by trying to establish that when our constitution and the Convention (ECHR) contradict each other which one should win out- this means that in cases such as these ‘enquiries’ the government is asking our permission to be able to run, our courts and eventually the Court of Human Rights at Strasbourg could very easily spend years trying to figure out if each case is in fact legal. So this change to our constitution is unlikely to help us get swift justice or accountability no matter what the government says.

    In terms of our own personal civil rights just have a look at some of the wording below- and remember it’s far easier to vote NO than regret or undo the changes.

    For this one I’ll give you some of the wording (if anyone wants the rest look up the referendum commission’s website) .

    So the government proposes to insert the following text into article 15.10

    each house (that means the dail or the senate) shall have the power to conduct an enquiry…. into any matter of general public importance (that’s a paraphrase there)

    In the course of such an enquiry the conduct of any person (whether or not they are an elected politician) may be investigated and the houses may make findings in respect of their conduct.

    Okay so the third bit – which I have the biggest issue with says;

    it shall be for the house (dail and senate)to determine the appropriate balance between the rights of persons and the public interest…..

    Anyway NO to both is what I’m saying.

    .

    Reply
    • NO is what we should all be voting if we don’t want to give the Governments (not just this Government) today and of the future powers that could be used to deny citizens of their rights and interfere with the judicial system.

      Reply
  • Here is a scary thought -
    The Healy Rea’s heading an Inquiry into corruption.
    Another scary thought -
    Baldy Bertie( Gallagher) as Presidant , he is from the same litter.
    Final scary thought -
    Our politicians acting as Judges, peoples with no pedigree judging the ordinary person.

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  • The most galling aspect of the referendum is its seeming necessity due to the apparent refusal of judges en masse to share in the collective burden when called upon in the national interest, i.e. clearing the budgetary deficit. Every other sector of society is being asked to swallow buckets of nails in the ‘national interest’, and I really don’t understand why the judiciary unanimously did not immediately embrace the opportunity to show solidarity and accept a salary reduction. The referendum is another example of unnecessary expenditure of taxpayer funds.

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    • They deal with the dregs of society on a daily basis, many before them are ppl that we would cross the street to avoid so feck it let them get paid the wage that agreed upon. Let’s not get Fine Gael on their asses – promise one thing but deliver something entirely different

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  • People are *so* easily led. People need to form their OWN opinions. . .

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  • Cut cut cut all top level. We have the same population as Manchester ffs. Top of the league in pay for the heads of most sectors in relation to other western countries? Get a fucking grip Ireland.

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  • Yep, nice one Sinéad, thanks for clarification, wasn’t sure but am now.

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  • Our legal system is in the dark ages. Pompous barristers dressed in black gowns made obligatory upon the death of Queen Ann sporting discreet pockets tucked up under the pleats for the filthy money of the criminal classes. Horsehair wigs reminiscent of the professional and merchant classes of the 17th Century along with plummy accents to address ‘MyLud’ in a fawning manner with the obligatory bowing and scraping to boot – give me a rest!
    Among all of this we get a useless argument about the independence of the ‘Luds’ and how this will be compromised by docking their pay. The ‘Luds’ are not or never were independent of political influence as the event of their appointment as a political function of the government shows. In many cases an unseemly rush to appoint or promote the ‘Luds’ of the right political allegiance is typical of a government in it’s last days of power.
    Once suitably esconsed by the government of the day (or remaining days) the ‘Luds’ are then available to the same government members for a spot of lobbying to go easy on their chums (see Phillip Sheedy fiasco)
    Independent Senator John Crown attempted to introduce a bill to abolish/regulate the lobbying of judges by elected politicians last Sept. but was blocked by government.
    We do Not have an independent judicary.

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  • Very informative article. Gave me some food for thought come polling day. To think I was so parked in the “Yes” camp on this particular issue. I may not change my mind but now it’s at least open to change.

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  • maura 22/10/11 #

    Totally agree Sinead. Why not cut the pensions of former civil servants and politicians. Turkeys do not vote for Christmas #aras11

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  • The gas thing about this referendum is that the right wingers are so keen to make cuts, cuts, cuts that they’re willing to grant more powers to government.

    It should be a classic dilemma for people of that political persuasion but in the rush to tokenism they ignore their inherent distrust of the state.

    I’ll be voting No as the amendment is too vague and open to abuse in my unqualified legal view.

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    • There are a lot of arguments here for a no vote and I would have some consideration for them however the nonsense and gravy train that has endured at the tribunals makes the inquiry referendum a shoe in. Due to cost The legal system is inaccessible to ordinary people.

      Reply
    • If the judiciary is unde the thums of the government of the day, who will be involved in half of the issues to be tried by the same judiciary, the ordinary people won’t get a look in, money or not.

      Let nobody be a judge in his own case.

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  • I completely agree with Sinéad’s position but think that the “NO” argument could be made a lot more succinctly. The problem is with the text of the amendment, a look at this makes all the points that are needed.

    http://www.humanrights.ie/index.php/2011/10/17/judgespay2/

    Reply
    • Getting purely into the legal points, there’s plenty more to say on it – that’s a great piece by FIona.

      Reply
    • I’m far more concerned about the other (Abbey Lara) item in the referendum.
      Even more concerned that the media/ public discussion seems to be ignoring this.
      Awarding policing powers to politicans, opens up a whole world of potential abuses that politicans previously did not previously enjoy.
      I fear this item offers zealous politicans the opportunity of creating a secret police force.

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    • Sorry, too much waffle and here/say…think they are ‘too clever’ for joe public – and the phoney bum licks who write about them or uphold them in the media to get a free feeling of supreme grace by their reporting – holier than thou merchants the lot. The Irish judiciary have disgraced their functioning by putting themselves in opposition to human life.

      Reply
    • Sean C 23/10/11 #

      This whole debate is missing the key point as to why judges are highly paid and why that cannot be changed without a referendum. If you want a judicial system free of corruption you pay your Judges a salary that minimises the temptation to take bribes. Democratic countries such as those on Asia who don’t pay their judiciary well have corrupt judicial systems.

      Reply
  • As usual, good idea in theory, implementation mucked up by the government.

    Vaguely worded, overcomplicated, difficult to interpret.

    D-
    Please try harder.

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  • I have always checked fully into everything before voting because just like the treaty alot of people were fooled. I just cannot understand how they get away with this yet again

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  • 5.5 million per year is not nothing. Yes it’s a symbolic gesture perhaps but is it not about equity or at least the idea of living in at equitable society too. If you are so concerned about the separation of the judiciary from the legislature then why not write an article about how judges are appointed and the relationship between judges and specific political parties etc. To be honest I didn’t see an argument here at all.

    Reply
    • I have plenty of issue with how judges are appointed, but this amendment only deepens the problem of marrying together what are supposed to be two independent strands. There’s nothing wrong with a symbolic gesture, except when that gesture is done for show only and not executed very well.

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    • I will say though that the reason I read this article was because I have not read or heard anything about these two amendments to the constitution other than what I read when I went looking on the referendum website. I have not decided how I will vote because I feel ill-informed, but as I said I feel this article has done nothing to improve my level of information with regard to this particular issue. I feel judges pay should be reduced in line with everyone else’s in the public sector but I agree that the wording in this amendment is as clear and practical as mud.

      Reply
  • Great write up Sinead

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  • On balance having read the test of both referendums I will be voting yes to both (much as it irks me to support anything this useless government puts forward).

    On Judges pay, I don’t think that the oireachtas having the ability to cut judges pay in line with the reduction of other public servants will affect the independence of the judiciary one bit. In my opinion judges are not truly independent anyway as they are political appointees (as is the case in most other countries I can think of).

    The argument that the saving will be minimal does not hold up either as in my opinion it is never a waste of time to do the right thing and the change will make a difference in the long term.

    The change to the constitution will also require judges to pay the public service pension levy which they are currently not obliged to do. I certainly cant see how anyone could argue that this is a bad thing.

    Also it is clear that judges are paid too much. The Irish chief justice earns approximately 150,000 euro more per annum than the chief justice of the US supreme court for example.

    Finally the thought of an ‘independent’ body being appointed to take care of these matters…well lets just say its sets off all kinds of alarm bells in my mind.

    The second referendum giving powers to the oireachtas to make findings of fact is long overdue and brings us in line with legislation in other countries. The congressional hearings in the US regarding the banking crisis is one that springs to mind.

    Reply
    • In response: While judges are political appointments, it must be remembered that the state, one way or another, are party to around 50% of cases in this country. Judges must not be afraid to make unpopular decisions, even ones that are costly to the state, without being fearful of the effect that decision might have on their salary. See, for instance, the recent decisions in Joyce and Carmody on criminal legal aid. While they may be political appointments, governments change all the time and no judge, having been appointed by one government, should feel their salary is threatened when the government changes, especially when they are frequently judging the actions of the state and potentially costing the state money.

      In relation to the minimal cost argument, there is nothing stopping the appointment of new judges on much lower salaries. The referendum itself will cost a significant amount of money, as will the passage of the pay reducing legislation (assuming the referendum passes).

      In relation to the pension levy, I believe the last figures showed that somewhere around 90% of the judiciary were paying it voluntarily. Of course, they could all have paid it were it not for the advice of the last attorney general. It is at least arguable (and undecided) that the levy could have been imposed on the current judges.

      In relation to the general level of judges’ pay, this is not the judges’ fault. They are paid what the government of the day decided to pay them. There is no need to pass an amendment that has the potential for abuse of the current proposals.

      In relation to having an independent body, it is significantly safer than having the Oireachtas decide. Political pressure on judges is not just something that happens in basket case third world dictatorships (see: Zimbabwe) but is equally capable of happening much closer to home (see: Ukraine, Yulia Tymoschenko). This is not a hypothetical argument that will never come to pass. It is a clear and present danger if the referendum is passed as worded.

      And in relation to the oireachtas enquiries amendment, while similar provisions exists in other countries, none go quite so far as to state that the boundaries of the rights of those being investigated is a matter for the investigator. Imagine the situation where, approaching a tight election, a TD decides to investigate a local property scandal (something like Priory Hall) where it so happens the developer is another candidate (remember, Mick Wallace is a TD property developer, even if he has nothing to do with Priory Hall), and, without the enquiry hearing from said developer or allowing him any representation whatsoever, declares that he was guilty of some sort of breach of planning or building guidelines…… Or if the opponent was a doctor, and he was “found guilty” of all sorts of Michael Neary style misdeamenours, without having any sort of input into the procedure himself. But it would be fine, because our good local TD would have ‘had regard to the principles of fair procedure’ in deciding that it was not necessary to hear from the accused. It allows McCarthyism, except in this instance, we wouldn’t have the Supreme Court to step in and stop it. The amendment is scandalous and tramples all over the rights of those being investigated and encourages knee-jerk, unfair, populist witch-hunts instead of a proper, accountable enquiry process.

      I am not opposed to the principles behind either of the amendments but the wording as both of them stand represent significant encroachments to the long established constitutional principles of separation of powers and accountability necessary in any democracy. Both the proposed amendments represent unjustifiable, populist power grabs and should be refused.

      Reply
  • Agree totally with the article. Both amendments as proposed are poor and should be rejected. We voted for REAL CHANGE – this is not it. Just populist garbage.

    Reply
    • Amazing how that word “populist” can be thrown about by certain people – Brian Cowen, Mary Coughlan used it very often, if I remember correctly!! :(

      Reply
    • I hope you’re not suggesting, Maureen, that a “no” voter would be a FF voter. I personally think these changes are ill-considered and, yes, populist in the extreme, and are too serious and far-reaching to merit less than full consideration. I’d recommend Fiona de Londras’s article as linked above, for anyone who cares to know what we might let ourselves in for.

      Reply
    • Definitely not suggesting any such thing, David! Just wish people could be a little bit more original and find an appropriate alternative to that dreadful word “populist”!! It was overused, in my opinion, by certain members of the last government!!! Re the referenda, thank you for directing me to the recommended article – it shall help me to
      arrive at an informed decision. :)

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    • Thank goodness for that Maureen – see what you mean though, maybe we could intersperse words like “pandering”, or metaphorically “red-top”, or even a “demagogue” policy!

      Re article – glad to recommend it.

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    • “Pandering” might do! :)

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  • I’ve no sympathy for them-the judges that is. They were asked to share the pain, and let us remember, many of them chose not to.

    So, while we must trust them to hold sway over our lives when the need arises, we don’t have to trust them to show decorum while at the trough as well.

    Yes, there is an irony in that, I know.

    Reply
    • The issue is not whether you have sympathy for the current judges or not. It is whether you are happy with further concentrating power in the hands of the Oireachtas. The proposal is poorly drafted and open to exploitation.

      And in any event, five of every six judges have voluntarily paid the pension levy (would you voluntarily take a 10% pay cut if you were a civil servant?), and Chief Justice Denham opted to stay at the lower Supreme Court judge’s salary rather than draw the higher salary she was entitled to when she was appointed Chief Justice.

      Reply
  • Very poorly argued article. Of course there should be democratic control of judges pay, I think if you’re looking for threats to democracy from the oireachtas, ie hobbling the judiciary by cutting their pay you have to ignore the brown envelope and ‘dig-out’ culture of this country.

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    • Democratic control I fully agree with – but not by the legislature. They’re the people who appoint judges in the first place, they would be introducing the law to cut their pay. Where’s the check and balance there? By all means make necessary cuts, but it needs to be done by an independent source.

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    • At least the legislature are democratically elected, unlike your independent *cough Mary Davis* quango.

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    • Sean C 23/10/11 #

      Tom you’ve touched on a key point here, hobbling the judiciary by cutting their pay will make them part of that brown paper bag culture. That is why they are protected by the constitution.

      Reply
  • Excellent, great article Sinead!

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  • Wow, that’s a lot of metaphors. I do agree with the argument (when I eventually found it in amongst the chum), and that it’s a far more important question than the X-Factor/Apprentice contest that the presidential election has become.

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  • The very fact that this issue requires a constitutional amendment is all the more reason to vote for change – now that we have been ‘granted’ the opportunity.

    What kind of a banana republic enshrines in its constitution ‘X type of people shall be for evermore paid Y amount of money’?

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  • Voting Yes after reading that drama.

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  • Your average judge ,or barrister, has about the same skill level as a car mechanic.
    It’s a humble JOB.
    The legal profession has bled the taxpayer dry in tribunal fees etc. over the last decade.

    We haven’t got the money “m’lud”.
    Not even for your daft wig.

    Reply
  • I am not exactly in favour of the amendment. I have hear this silly argument above and on Pat Kenny ’5 million is a small price to pay for the sake of a constitution’

    Okay….. So I wonder is this shared by people being evicted from their homes?

    The argument referred to above was discussed on Pat Kenny Radio 1 and its clear, the class of person being used as a comparator is not a gardener in the public service.

    The reality is we don’t have the money. If we did then this would not be an issue.

    Maybe when Ireland Inc are back in the black we can change the constitution, if that helps people sleep better at night.

    What I’m concerned about is the people sleeping at night, not knowing whether or not they will be there the following night because they don’t have the money to pay their mortgage.

    How dare people say 5m is nothing in any context.

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    • There’s the thing Darren – “when” we are back in the black, there will be no chance for Joe Soap to simply call for another referendum to change it back again. It is mainly Government that makes that call. How many governments will offer the chance to remove governmental power?

      Make no mistake, once this is done, it’s done. We should think very hard before allowing it.

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  • As with all referendums .Its another farce a tiny leaflet as propaganda with 8 lines about it and anothe 8 pages of bum fluff. As always if
    they say vote yes .I will vote no .

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  • Dave 23/10/11 #

    Other than attacking a ridiculous government and a poor system that we are subjected to in this country, I fail to see how you actually made an argument for not reducing the pay of judges. 5.5 million euro is still 5.5 million euro and I would rather it was spent on SNAs than already overinflated judges pay, thanks. Is there a chance that the author has a relative or friend in he courts because they sure don’t have one in the schools?

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    • Bloody hell – nobody’s arguing against reducing the pay of judges!!

      The argument against this amendment is not that we should safeguard their pay, but that we should safeguard the constitution. It’s the only constitution we’ve got, and we shouldn’t be damaging critically important concepts like separation of powers in the name of a populist sentiment.

      If I had a wasp’s nest in my attic, and it was proposed to deal with it by burning the house down, I wouldn’t accept that approach. But that doesn’t mean I want a wasp’s nest in my attic!

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    • Shanti is right in what he days. The government is using judges pay and ‘saving the taxpayer money’ to get these articles in the constitution changed!

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  • I think the approach taken in this referendum wording is spot on. It allows our democratically elected representatives to enact a law to reduce the pay of judges proportionately with cuts endured by other state-paid employees. I don’t see anything that allows the Dail to target an individual judge or that would make judges in general more deferential of the Dail. When other public servants were taking pay cuts the judges hid behind this constitutional defence. Now it’s time to tear that down.

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    • Have you actually read the proposed wording? Because on the surface yes – we should vote to save money, but if you actually read the amendment it’s got about as much to do with what it’s sold as and Lisbon had to do with saving jobs..

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    • The constitutional defence of the inpendence of the judiciary is fundamental to the separation of powers. If you want to hand judicial powers to the Dail, and all subsequent Dails, effectively, then tear away. But make sure you know what other protections you’ll be tearing down.

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  • This is rubbish, remember the govt cut the pay of the army and the Gardai against the advice of the IMF so who the hell cares about a few toffs in wigs. I cant wait to see the judges get their pay cut. My pay was cut to pieces over the last few years and i actually do my job unlike our glorious judiciary who seem to let every toerag back out on the streets. Il shed a tear for them when im sitting in the lab on monday morning working my ass off….

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    • Randy its a bit more complicated than that. No one doubts the hard job the majority of our judges do.

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    • This is a dangerous constitutional change. Once this is done, it won’t be undone, and it will affect the course of our justice system for all time.

      I won’t try to sell you either vote, but I will ask you to read up and know what this really represents for us all.

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    • Oh, yeah. That’s right. Because the Judciary aren’t there to protect our Constitution, uphold minority rights and vindicate the rights of the ordinary public in a case taken before them. That definetely isn’t an important function in society. It’s a simple job too, you just have to go to Law School, practice as a barrister for years and years, get appointed to Senior Counsel, and then become a Judge after decades of legal training and experience. In case gombeen’s like you haven’t realised yet, I’m being sarcastic. Oh, and a further point. ‘Letting toerags back onto the street’ has nothing to do with the Judiciary. The executive, or government, make the final decision on when a criminal is released from a State prison. Maybe you should pay a visit to the Courts sometime (or maybe you’ve already been in one for the wrong reasons) and see that every day judges make decisions to vindicate the rights of wronged individuals in society and set legal precedents for a better and improved functioning society. So before you start spreading utter rubbish about a profession you know nothing about, change your profile picture. It’s embarrasing.

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    • Actually David i was referring to the fact that you almost need to carry the corpse of your murder victim into court before our soft judges will lock you up. They need to spend a night with the emergency services before being promoted. Every lawyer should have to do the same to give them a taste of what the country is actually like, its hard to see it from your ivory tower. Its people like you who allow this country to sink further in oblivion. As regards me visiting the courts i have been there actually when i saw the scumbag who did an unspeakable act to a family member laugh as he was handed a joke of a sentence so dont you dare lecture me you little trinners toff, back to your game of polo now.

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    • Oh, play the education card. You figured out I go to Trinity so you throw your prejudiced opinion out there. So now I know you’re not a TCD graduate…right. Very professional. “It’s people like me who…what?!”. I’m a student, not a bloody kingmaker. Who do you think I am, some sort of bigshot aiming to bring the country down? I’m getting a degree to hopefully help people. Quit assuming what you don’t know about me, eh? You had a bad experience with a Judge, that’s unfortunate. So you bring your one-sided, prejudiced view of the entire legal profession on here and argue that lawyers are the lowest of the low. Again, another generalisation on your part. This referendum will not do anything but infringe upon our separation of powers even further by enabling the current government and all future governments to disproportionately reduce the pay of our judicial organ of state at their whim, and whenever they want. It is dangerously worded, and hacks away at the independence of our judiciary to perform their function effectively in society. That’s the real arggument here.

      I am not going to reduce myself to your level by assuming I know anything about you. That would be giving you what you want. But sorry to dissapoint, but I don’t play polo. I play football. You should try it sometime. It’s also called GAA.

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  • Let’s make this simple..

    The ads say its about Judges pay and Enquiries and Tribunals. It’s framed as a means to save the taxpayer money. All good things..

    Then you read the actual wording and realise, it’s not actually about that at all.

    For goodness sake people.. Remember Lisbon? Vote yes to save jobs!? Only there was a load of other stuff snuck in there about taxes paying for war and surrendering neutrality.. Had it it been for the lone “No” camp at SF we may have walked blindly into that one..

    If you are going to vote – Read the ammendment. If you can’t understand it, think its too vague, or disagree in ANY way then you must vote NO. They can redraft the ammendment.. But if you vote yes, you are changing our constitution, and waiving your own rights, not just getting back at higher paid people than you.

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  • A worthless and generaly pointless load of waffel. In this current state abova all there should be fairness and equality. All should feel the pinch regardless of status. Im sure Judges following a pay cut will continue to make individual decisions which show no sign of common sense so for me it’s YES all the way.

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  • Everyone must share the burden. Government must be seen to endorse this belt tightening the People want to see this !

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  • Don’ like the comment about child being almost eaten by shark, there must be another comparison that would have been less harsh ?????

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  • Nice writing. Poor patriot. Sinead’s boyfriend is obviously the judicial sort.;-)

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    • Sinead isn’t related to or kissing anyone who works in the legal profession. I agree with cutting judges pay, I disagree entirely with doing it by the means of a slipshod constitutional amendment. If I can see the flaws, I’m worried that elected representatives can’t.

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    • Sinead you ” agree with cutting judges pay” but then how exactly and who exactly is legally able to do it other than the legislature as a constitutional amendment.

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    • It needs to be a constitutional amendment, yes, but the amendment as it is written says that the cut will be made by a law introduced by the oireachtas. There’s no reason why they can’t amend the constitution with wording that allows for changes to pay but stipulates that any such law or change be approved or brought forward by some independent person or body.

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    • Ok Sinead I agree that the wording of the referendum is shoddy however hypothetically who would appoint this “independent person or body” other than some person or body within the legislature? At some point we have to trust those who we ourselves elected.

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    • yep, fair point there, but there also has to be a watchdog at some point. The legislature appointing and then being given the power to introduce laws regarding the pay of judges ties together even more two branches that were never meant to be linked like that. I don’t know who the independent body should be, but I know the oireachtas aren’t independent.

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    • Who watches the watchdog?

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  • Most judges seem to be very conceited , over weight , smug, conservative snobs. Cutting their pay is a start.

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  • Don”t have to waste your brain energy, it is defo a yes

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  • What that article doesn’t highlight is the introduction of the principle of retrospective taxation contained within the amendment. If we approve the principle can the can the practice be far behind, and not just for the Judges!

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