“Irish” is not unique to this island. It is the same gaelic language spoken in Scotland.

No it’s not the same Gaelic language spoken in Scotland. It’s quite different actually. Spanish and Portuguese are closer to each other than Scottish Gaelic and Irish are. Ukrainian and Russian are closer to each other than Scottish Gaelic and Irish. Even Dutch and German are closer to each other. Many words hold similar meanings, but there are also many words quite different. On top of that the grammar and syntax is not the same. Plurals are formed differently. There is no eclipsis in Scottish Gaelic, unlike Irish. There is a V-T distinction in Scottish Gaelic not found in Irish. The formation of tenses is different to Irish. Even the quantity of tenses differs. You obviously have no clue what you are talking about, Eric. Perhaps it’s your ignorance which leads you to such hatred towards Irish.

Eric de Red, you are an utter ignoramus.

An-fhear, a Bhriain, leag tú do mhéar air – tá mo dhuine go huile is go hiomlán ar mire bánaí.

Well said, guys like that idiot Eric De Red are pure gobshites who probably weren’t able to learn it in the first place.

As already highlighted Eric, Scottish Gaelic is not the same language as Irish. It has been maturing on it’s own for about 800 years. While some phrases and words are interchangeable – it is not mutually intelligible. I say this as someone who speaks Irish, and a small bit of Scottish Gaelic.

So if you’re going to nitpick my posts in future, I’d appreciate it if you’d at least got your facts straight. I’m all for being corrected, but not with incorrect information.

Strange people the Irish. The most unpatriotic and proud people in the world, gave away their sovereignty and independence but suddenly care about their native language lol

Unpatriotic and unproud****

Eh, did the French not do the same Monsieur?

Long live my language! Against all, I will try to learn it and understand it. Besides all else, it is all I have left….

@ Buisson , Branleur !!!!!!! Tu salach Fraincis thoin cigre !!!

I’m not sure someone can consider themselves truly Irish without some proficiency in the language, otherwise what marks us as different from our neighbours to the east?
Also something needs to be done to preserve the third language of the republic.

You need to get out more.

More trolling Eric.

I’m ashamed of an educational system that failed to teach the national language properly.

And Ireland was ruined by European economic powers like Germany.

I’ve heard this canard before.. But the reality is – Irish schools are not producing competent German speakers anymore than they are producing Irish speakers. The prime cause of this is lack of immersion – it’s the only way you’ll ever truly learn to speak a language.

If someone truly wants to become fluent in German, they will naturally pick it up if they live in Germany. I advise anyone to look at Benny the Irish Polyglot on youtube. He’s an Irish lad who now speaks about 8 or 9 languages. And he did it by immersing himself in the languages, and speaking them from day one – without focusing on grammar. He is a living testament to how powerful immersion is.

He spends 3 months in each country, and by the end of it – produces a video demonstrating how competent he is. A real interesting chap! Google him.

Sean that doesn’t explain how children in other European countries are multilingual. Most Dutch people I know speak English as well as any Irish person I know, yet they weren’t immersed in it. Yes the Irish education system is woeful when it comes to languages but its more down to poor teachers and poor methods of teaching with so much hinging on Leaving Cert written exams when we need people to learn to converse in them instead.

Richard, I have a friend from Amsterdam and they are immersed in English to an extent. English is the second language of The Netherlands. They don’t acquire it just in school – they also acquire it outside school. 70% of the population can speak English – that is why they acquire it so easy.

Interestingly, I’m learning French and German in college, and a most people in my classes speak a decent level of Irish. I suppose that they’re more interested in languages in general, and engage with the school curriculum more than the usual bunch.

I agree with Seán – somewhat. Fixing the Irish curriculum will help, but it takes a personal effort to get people to truly learn how to speak it. If you want to truly learn French, read Le Monde every day/weak. Get a subscription to the Alliance Francaise’s library and borrow some books and films.

If you want to learn German properly, read the Frankfurter Allgemeine. Subscribe to the Goethe Institut’s library (it’s cheaper than the Alliance Fracaise!). Borrow some books and films on a regular basis. I’ve learned most of my French and German this year from newspapers, books and films. Classes can only give you so much.

For Irish, you’ve got even less of an excuse: watch TG4, listen to Radio na Gaelteachta. Join Conradh na Gaeilge to meet Irish speakers and learners, if you know none. If you’re in a third level college, there’s probably a Cumman Gaelach. What Bród’s doing is absolutely what is needed to preserve Irish. I suspect that for people in continental Europe, who are bombarded with English words from a very young age. Hollywood films and pop music permeate every part of western society. But at the same time, we have to realise that our teachers really don’t inspire students here to make the extra personal effort themselves, which is needed to truly learn Irish or any other language. We need organisations like Bród to make it work.

monney?

Great stuff! There are many minority languages in Europe. It doesn’t seem to do those peoples any harm, financial or social. Lets do it! Why can’t the Irish be bilingual? Why shouldn’t the Irish be bilingual?

@Nick Caffrey

“Why shouldn’t the Irish be bilingual?”, of course they could, but why should you or anyone else tell them that, or what, they should be?

I stated in a post above that there are many nutjobs in both the pro- and anti-Irish camps. Unfortunately, they also happen to be the loudest. Trust me, the majority of us Irish-speakers don’t judge a person on his or her ability to speak Irish. I’m sorry for your experience in learning the language, but glad you got the university of your choice. Most of us Irish speakers would not consider your experiences as somehow making you bad. You’re not.

Brian
What is your judgement on the educational system that has failed abysmally in the teaching of Irish? A kid can start being instructed in the language at 4 or 5 yrs of age and emerge from school at 17 or 18 without a clue.

Brian
What is your judgement on the educational system that has failed abysmally in the teaching of Irish? A kid can start being instructed in the language at 4 or 5 yrs of age and emerge from school at 17 or 18 without a clue!

My opinion on the Irish language in our school system is that it is fundamentally flawed. The entire methodology needs to be changed. Rather than focussing on grammar and the written language, oral and aural comprehension should be to the fore. Obviously an understanding of the written element and some basic grammar needs to be learned, but the groundwork has to be there first. Otherwise it’s like building a house by starting on the roof. By the time you get to where the foundation should be you can do nothing about it and the house collapses. The same is happening with our teaching of Irish. Teach the basics first. How to talk and listen. Introduce TV programmes – there’s a wealth of them on TG4, including Irish language versions of kid’s programs such as Spongebob (shudder, but that’s another day’s work), Aifric, etc. Bring in Irish language music such as Kíla and other contemporary artists (rather than the depressing Sean Nós etc.)

Regarding the éiginteacht or compulsory element. Personally I think Irish should be compulsory for Primary school children. That’s the time when they will pick it up the quickest. In second level as far as Junior Cert Irish should also be compulsory, but should be split into two separate classes – one for written, aural and oral comprehension on the language (compulsory) and one for the literature and history of the language (optional). Beyond the Junior Cert Irish should be optional, but state financed schools should still have a provision for those who want to do it.

As an aside, I think our English language education also needs a review. All our kids are learning about Hamlet’s soliloquies and depressive nature and Joyce’s virtually impenetrable stories, but they don’t know the difference between “there”, “they’re” and “their”, when to use the apostrophe (its/it’s, and the incessant insertion of the apostrophe in plurals – e.g. two school’s), using sentences such as “I were at the shop”, etc. I think English could benefit from being split into two separate classes too – one for the language and its grammar, and one for its history and literature, with the former being compulsory and the latter being optional.

Brian
You speak a mountain of sense. Pity is it’s not happening! It’s only because our kids don’t lie on trolleys in schools that our educational system is not exposed for the shambles that it is!

You only use six of your subjects for points and most do seven subjects so it only holds you back as much as any other subject might

Irish is a requirement for entry for an NUI college. So yes, it does hold people back. Thats the sad fact.

Ethnic discrimination!

@ Eric – as opposed to the requirement that all courses in NUI colleges require English too. Surely, using your logic that could also be construed as ethnic discrimination. If you don’t like it go to any one of the multitude of other colleges and third level educational institutes throughout the country that don’t require it. I’ll tell you what discrimination in Ireland is. Discrimination is some random Dublin D4 bell-end intruding into private conversation and throwing a glass of water over you because you are speaking Irish in Dublin to a friend when the only lingua franca between us was Irish. Discrimination is having to constantly hide the fact that you’re an Irish speaker for fear of attacks in Ireland, either verbal or physical. Discrimination is having the likes of you constantly insult the Irish-speaking community just because you have, for some bizarre reason, a hatred towards the language verging on the fascist. Discrimination is, as citizens and tax payers in this country, constantly having our right to speak our own, and one of the country’s official languages, denied. You have to put up with, what, a few hours a week in school learning a language for only a few years and then the odd story thrown into media spotlight every few months. On the other hand, we Irish speakers have to put up with venom, spite, anger, and outright hatred towards us on a daily and constant basis. Now you tell me where the discrimination lies. If you are so keen on the State ceasing paying for the Irish language, how about we Irish speakers stop paying for your State. Learn a bit of manners and respect for your fellow human beings. Are there nutjobs on the pro-Irish side? Yes, but there are far more nutjobs on the anti-Irish side. It’s about time both groups just fecked off and allowed the rest of us to get on with our lives. I know I’ll probably receive plenty of thumbs down for what I have just said, but I don’t care. I am sick and tired of being stood on by the likes of you, Eric.

Jeez Brian relax! the only fascism I ever encountered in relation to the Irish language was a primary school principal who beat small defenceless kids black and blue because they struggled with a language that was not considered to be an inherent part of our cultural tradition but a badge (like the fainne) to be worn like an emblem of some crazy fascist national identity. I think Flann O’Brian summed it up nicely in his parody of the whining bullshit (Peig Sayers) we were forced to learn in his book ‘The Poor Mouth’. ‘Phat is your name’ to which the barefoot child replied ‘bootssir’!

@ John, as someone who doesn’t speak Irish you obviously don’t know what I’m talking about, and I honestly don’t mean that in any condescending way. The discrimination I mentioned above is discrimination I have personally experienced. Regarding what you described – as far as I’m concerned there is no room in any society for that kind of abuse. I also don’t agree with Irish speakers insistence that Irish is somehow the native language of all Irish people and that non Irish speakers should be forced to learn it through coercion or other means. It is the native language for some, but for most it’s not. If English speaking Irish people want to speak English, then, as far as I’m concerned, they should speak English. If they don’t want to speak Irish then that should be entirely up to them. But as a speaker of Irish I would also like the same courtesy extended to us Irish speakers. Yes, I exploded in the comment above, but as I already stated, I am sick and tired of having to constantly bite my tongue. The article is about a group of people wanting to get those with an interest in the language, even if it is only a small interest, active and participating in the language. What’s wrong with that? It costs nothing and builds a bond between what might otherwise be people with no other apparent similar interests. It helps build communities, even if only small ones. There is no compulsion in it. There is no abuse in it. There’s no attack on the English speaking community. Yet, people like Eric decide to come on and attack the language and the speakers of the language for no reason. The more sensible comments have simply talked about whether or not it’s a good idea and what their own experiences were, good or bad, regarding the learning of Irish. If someone doesn’t like the language then that’s fine. Just don’t insult me or other Irish speakers because we speak it. To the likes of me and Ciarán Ó Raghallaigh below, Irish is not a hobby. Irish is my first language, English my second. To me, Irish is an integral part of who I am. It is how my thought processes work. I think in Irish. I dream in Irish. I speak to my family and some of my friends in Irish. It is not some hobby. A hobby is something you pick up and leave at your choosing. For me there is no choice. It is always there. And to have people call you names, throw drinks over you, spit at your feet, smack you across the back of the head, all because you happen to be speaking Irish, is, as you can imagine, the reason why the likes of Eric really make my blood boil.

Brian
Thanks for your considered and thoughtful reply. What makes my blood boil is the cack handed way that Irish was taught to English speaking Irish people. The school principal I spoke of came from an native Irish speaking part of the country and to my mind resented our inabilities and used violence to impose his way.
My mother was a fluent speaker and I learned at her heels but all that was destroyed at the hands of a tyrant and later by a badly chosen curriculum (Peig Sayers etc.) to the extent that the only thing I wrote on my Leaving Cert. exam paper was my exam no. and left.

I am a very ardent supporter of the Irish language, John. But I totally agree with you regarding your experience of certain Irish teachers. These are the very type of person that are supposed to be defenders of the language and extreme supporters of it, but in my experience, and obviously in the experience of most Irish people, they are the very ones that do the most damage to the Irish language cause. To me it should be about freedom. Freedom to express yourself in whatever language you feel most comfortable. You may not be able to speak Irish. That’s perfectly fine. You may not want to ever speak Irish. That too is also fine. The only way we can move forward on the issue is for those pro-Irish such as the teacher you mentioned to just shut up and treat those who don’t like or want to speak Irish with decency and for those anti-Irish to respect the wishes of those who do. And to those who say it is an integral part of our heritage and those who don’t speak it are somehow betraying that – personally, I say it’s not. Is it part of it? Yes, for some it is an integral part of it. For others though, it’s not. The ability to speak Irish is not what defines an Irish person. It’s our welcoming nature. It’s our communities. It’s our cities, towns, villages and countryside. It’s a common sense of belonging. It’s the support we give our GAA, football, rugby, cricket or whatever other sporting team. It’s the music we listen to and the craic we have in the pub. Anyway, I’m rambling a bit there at the end. :)

Thanks Brian. You sound like you enjoy it all! Goodnight to you!

That’s lovely that you dream in Irish Brian. My mam’s family grew up in an Irish speaking family and to this day she can only do sums in Irish. If she’s totting up a bill or counting money out, she’ll have to déan é as Gaeilge.

I’ve been watching Bernard dunne’s Bród Club and leave TG4 on at times and noticed myself saying go raibh maith agat instead of thanks in shops past week. Even said it getting off the bus last weekend.

Lean ar aghaidh Bród Club.

It’s interesting that 95% of the comments are written in English, even those above from the most ardent Gaeilge supporters. Presumably that’s because people want to make their points, and English is the method of communication that almost everybody in this country can understand.

And in response to the OP, I am at a loss as to why so many people disagree with the sentiment that it shouldn’t be compulsory. Judging by the red thumbs, more than half believe that we should force-feed our children the Irish language!?
Wow…

Yes Jim. It was the force feeding that I objected to by walking out of the Leaving Cert Irish Exam as I explained above.
I found the whole method of teaching Irish to be dreadful, from the fascist type attitude of the stalwarts for the national cause to the subject matter chosen for study, which from my experience reflected an obsession with the misery and moaning that typified our national obsession for self pity.
I grew up in a household where I remember my mother at the piano playing and singing the loveliest of Irish songs and ballads in a refined and gentle tone that made the language part of the music. I remember her speaking to myself and the farm animals in the same calm gentle tone that settled and soothed. Then school and all that was replaced by a racus, rasping, shrill cacophony of horror.
Brian is right above, I don’t speak the language (and to be honest, to my shame I suppose, I don’t care). I guess I could make a fair fist of it if I really tried (some bits stick in my head from where I learned enough to get myself to and through college). My girls love the language and I encouraged it, I guess that’s the best I could do giving my own sad experience.

@Brian

You have assumed rather a lot about me. It wasn’t me who poured water on anyone nor would I support such behaviour.

This state since its foundation has taken upon itself a project to convert the ethnic and cultural mix to one determined by itself. It has no right to do this. It compounds its crime with allowing the true Irish language (or languages -the difference between a dialect and a language is somewhat subjective) to die in the communities in which it is still spoken.

Once upon a time, a long time ago, people stood up to attempt to build a pluralist state. We would appear to have failed.

I don’t agree with English being compulsory for university courses either, unless of course the subject is taught in English.

Apologies for the odd bit of trolling. 13 years being told I’m not Irish because I don’t speak someone else’s language can bring this out of you.

Eric
I ignored you ’till now because of your bloody trolling but I agree with some of what you say – just say it a bit better next time.
I remember at a certain stage in my schooling where a particularly obnoxious Irish teacher used to direct the most awful tirade of abuse at kids in my class for no other reason than they were Protestant.

Well if you actually read up about the Bród Club campaign you’ll find that it doesn’t cost the government, or people who sign up, anything – it’s about using whatever Irish you have.

In addition, if everybody in the country spoke Irish we would be a lot better off economically. Currently most of us speak English and as such companies don’t need a unique Irish workforce and so we continue to lose jobs etc. to the UK… This wouldn’t be the case if we all spoke Irish.

Cillian…
And where would Ireland be without EU intervention?
It is attitudes like yours that must make them wonder as to why they are supporting us.
Ireland has created it’s own fiscal crisis. Another country comes to it’s rescue.
Enough said.

No RG if we spoke Irish rather than English there would be even LESS reason to come here. It’s our ability to speak in a language in use throughout the world for business that helps attract foreign companies here. We are the only Eurozone country with English as our first (even though officially its our second) language. If we want to continue to attract these companies we need to start focussing on adding foreign languages such as French, German, Chinese even Arabic to our repertoire. If this group want to invest their own resources into a language which brings little if any value to our economy then good for them, but at a time of scarce resources the government should be investing where it will bring the best return for the country as a whole.

Sorry Stray Mutt, but there are some of us who would like to step outside the doom and gloom of economic collapse, even just once in a while. Have you gone for a few drinks since the economy collapsed? If so why – would your time not have been better spent fixing the economy? Have you gone to weddings or birthday parties? If so I again ask why – surely the economy is more important? Yes, fixing the economy is an extremely important task, but some of us like to leave it aside for a moment and actually live our lives. Whether that’s using or learning Irish, getting involved in local charities, attending and participating in sporting events, etc. I say well done to Bernard Dunne and all those involved in Bród Club and well done to everyone who is getting involved in something to provide welcome and positive distractions to what would otherwise be an extremely pointless existence.

@ Stray Mutt,
Irish is a recogonised language by the EU.
Thanks to me being fluent I have been able to apply for jobs within the European Union, parlaiment etc as my required second language. I have basic Spanish and German but in this case Irish is my passport to a decent job.

It is also a really beautiful language.

@Jenn Byrne

Irish as an EU language is nothing more than social welfare for Gaelic hobbyists.

Economies fluctuate, rise and fall… They always have, and they always will. To throw away our national language, along with the thousands of years of history and culture which it embodies, based on an extremely short term and ultimately insignificant economic downturn is nothing short of criminal. There is a much bigger picture here which you need to see. The Irish language represents a cultural wealth greater than any economic wealth.

RG Cuan – that’s a pile of rubbish. If we all spoke Irish, we’d be forced to learn English as a second language, to attract multinational companies, just like the Netherlands. You know it is possible to have two national languages and two cultural traditions that, and respect them equally. James Joyce and Oscar Wilde are just as Irish as Máirtín Ó Caidhn or Seán Ó Ríordáin.

Promote Irish – just don’t try to bring economics into it.

@ Eric De Red,
what an inane and reductionist thing to say. For myself and thousands of others Irish is not a hobby but a language we use to communicate and express outselves in every day life. Social welfare is government provided economic assistance to those in need.I do not see how the recognition of Irish by the EU can be seen as social welfare in any way? It seems your comment is ill thought out or ill worded.
Or that you personally don’t/can’t speak or use Irish regularly and thus can’t see past your own prejudice.

It doesn’t matter if you like the language or not. Many many people in Ireland do or want to learn it, and that should be respected. I speak Irish, I like it, and just because English is the lingua franca does not mean that we can’t be bilingual. Speaking and promoting Irish doesn’t have to come at the expense of English or vice versa.

The notion of dispensing with the Irish language at this juncture because in your model it doesn’t allow for a competitive advantage is a perfect example of the short term thinking that continues to permeate national thought and led to the decisions that our fearless leaders made in bringing the country to be where it is now.

There is no reason at all that Irish cannot co-exist, and indeed flourish, alongside English, French, German, Mandarin or any other language of commercial importance.

@ Stray Mutt I’m curious…are you multi-lingual? or is this purely a comment based on the dire economic straits we’re in

@jenn “…Irish doesn’t have to come at the expense of English”, is not borne out by the evidence. Bilingual children on average display less proficiency and a smaller vocabulary in each individual language than their monolingual counterparts.
This, of course is in addition to the divisive tendancies of a language virtually inaccessible to non-natives, or recent immigrants.

@ Jim. Sorry, but you are completely and utterly incorrect. The majority of people in the world are bilingual or trilingual. Evidence supports the fact that those with two languages or more are far more advanced academically speaking than those with only a single language. Evidence also suggests that bilinguals deal better with neurological disorders and diseases such as Alzheimer’s far better than monolinguals. Unless you think your own vocabulary is superior to the majority of the planet’s.

@Brian
If you care to re-read my comment, you will see that is not in fact what i stated. Dividing language skills may improve overall linguistic and cognitive abilities, but at the expense of particular expertise in one individual language.

Sorry Jim, but I did understand your question. If you read the work done by Dixon, Wu, & Daraghmeh (2012; Early Childhood Education Journal, v40 no. 1 pp25-34; Mar. 2012) you will see that it’s not bilingualism which affects proficiency and vocabulary in a particular language. It’s the Socio-Economic group which affects bilinguals. Bilinguals in countries such as Ireland tend to be from poorer backgrounds (recent immigrants, refugees, etc.) and as such the parents of bilinguals (be they Polish-English bilinguals, Chinese-English, Russian-English, etc.) tend to have a poorer vocabulary set than, say, wealthy, well-educated Polish, Russians, Chinese, etc. who would have stayed in their home country for obvious reasons. Add to that the poor grasp they would have on the English language when they come here and it’s quite understandable that the children, though bilinguals, would have a poorer level of proficiency in either language and a smaller vocabulary set. Bilinguals of well-educated parents actually tend to have proficiency levels equal to monolinguals. Their vocabulary sets are generally either equal to, or greater than, monolinguals.

Interesting to see all the “thumbs downs”. Plenty of bigots out there who believe they have a right to force their hobby on other people.

Eric – are you just trolling? I thumbs downed this because of the ‘pointless exercise’ comment. I strongly believe that it is not a pointless exercise. From your comment, I gather that you are either trolling or you just believe that the two sentences only refer to the bludgeoning.

And forcing English on Irish speakers…? Can you not see that your argument is utterly and totally flawed? Live and let live.

I’ve read some idiots comments before on the journal but I reckon you get first prize for being the dumbest. I’m not an Irish speaker either but live and let live.

Someone has to do it Brendan ;-)

Sasanach.

Just like your ignoriant and stupid comments, a total waste of time.

Swedish is only used in Sweden,should they drop that? If you think Irish gets tourists in then we need to keep it as theres not much else that separates us from the rest of the English speaking world. People don’t come here to experience llittle Britain but unfortunately thats what they get.