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Dublin: 9 °C Sunday 19 May, 2013

Column: I’ve got two young children, and I could soon lose my house

James McKay told TheJournal.ie how he cannot meet his mortgage payments because his bank is not cooperating.

James McKay

I’M ON ILLNESS benefit now. Previous to being on illness benefit I was working, and I was struggling with my mortgage then. I was on interest-only payments for a year, and I entered into the Mortgage Arrears Resolution process. But the bank wouldn’t cooperate with me.

They basically sent me out a thing saying ‘This is what we want you to pay. We’ve seen your financial statement and the amount of money you have coming in, this is what we want.’ But they never offered me anything else. I’d suggested things to them, and they used that against me – they said ‘you asked for debt forgiveness’.

So I went to the Financial Services Ombudsman, and they wrote to the bank asking to mediate. But the bank refused to go into mediation with me. They didn’t give a reason, they just said they weren’t going into mediation. And the Ombudsman said due to the backlog of cases they had, they would only be able to investigate my complaint within 20 weeks. That was in July.

The bank are doing as little as possible. Even though they’re saying ‘Get in touch with us right away, and we’ll sit down and work it out with you’ – there’s no cooperation at all. It’s all for them. They’re just using the process totally in their own favour, and they’re not coming back with anything at all. I’ve a family, two children three and two. I went to MABS for the first time in 2010, and I said to the man, ‘All I want is to be treated fairly.’ And he said ‘If you’re looking for fairness from the banks, you can forget that right now.’

‘People’s houses need to be revalued’

The banks have been recapitalised. The government have said that there is money there. It was the banks that caused this crisis; it wasn’t me and my family; we didn’t cause this issue in Ireland with our mortgages. People’s houses need to be revalued, and then that’s what you owe. And if people are still struggling then the mortgages need to be extended. What would be wrong with extending people’s mortgages to 50 years, or to 80 years? At least in 40 years time you’d have half the mortgage paid, and maybe your children would want to take over the house – or they could sell it and pay whatever.

I don’t think anybody would want to buy the house. But if we sold it… We bought it for €190,000; let’s say it’s worth €120,000 now. If we sold it for that, we’d still owe €70,000 and we would be homeless.

There’s a prospect that we could lose our house. I think a lot of people in Ireland are facing the same thing. I’m on illness benefit; I can’t afford to pay what they’re demanding. I can’t have my children growing up without food, heat, clothes. That’s what would happen. It’s a struggle enough just to be paying what we’re paying now.

I worked as a frontline worker with homeless people for the past ten years. And there’s a stigma around homelessness. People think homelessness is to do with addiction problems, or things like that. And I find now that there’s a stigma around people who are struggling with their mortgages. There’s people hiding – thousands and thousands of people, not saying, hiding in their houses, and they’re scared. People have killed themselves, it’s driving people to addiction, it’s driving people to mental illness. I’m not going to let that happen to me. I’ve done nothing wrong, so I’m not going to beat myself up.

‘People have nothing to be ashamed of’

People have nothing to be ashamed of. There’s thousands of people in this country who are ashamed that they cannot meet the impossible demands that the banks are making. I think the shame for them is the stigma of being identified as somebody who isn’t stepping up to the plate, to the grade. But it is impossible to step up to.

I think it would help the situation if people were more open, because it would identify the true nature of the problem in the country. Because there are a lot of people going under the radar. Who are paying their mortgages, but they can’t really afford to, and they are doing without. They’re not being able to pay for food, just to keep up with a ridiculous mortgage.

The way I would respond to people saying ‘You’ve made your bed and now you have to lie in it’? I would refer to what the then Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern, was saying just a couple of years ago. He said there was no crisis. ‘People keep talking the country down, but there’s nothing wrong. All this scaremongering and doommongering.’ Bertie Ahern told us as Taoiseach of Ireland that that wasn’t happening, that everything was OK. He even said the people who were saying this should go away and kill themselves. And we listened to our Taoiseach, and he told us everything was OK and nothing was wrong.

James McKay lives with his family in Galway, and is a member of the People’s Association Watchdog. He decided to go public with his story after finance minister Michael Noonan suggested that people in mortgage difficulties who were ashamed would not have to identify themselves. As told to Michael Freeman.

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Comments (75 Comments)

  • John 24/10/11 #

    Name and shame the bank in question. Name the bankers involved, no matter how lowly on the food chain they are. Expose these criminals for what they are.

    Reply
    • When are people going to understand when you help your neighbour you improve your community/society, James and his family could end up homeless and good old irish begrudgery rears its ugly head…as for the bank can’t find the words too annoyed…

      Reply
    • It’s not the banks fault that people borrowed beyond their means. Take some personal responsibility and stop blaming the banks for everything. I can still pay my mortgage because I didn’t take everything the bank offered, I only took what was in my means to repay, in good times and bad.

      Reply
  • Here here name and shame them. Well done for being brave enough to come out with your storey.

    Reply
  • absolutely disgraceful carry on ! when will the people of Ireland stand up and say enough of this nonsense ! i think never ! sure look at the Aras polls !!!! i’m very disillusioned with the citizens of our great little country !

    Reply
  • CMD 24/10/11 #

    Well done John for standing up to a bully. That’s in reality what these banks are and this government like the last one is basically letting them get away with it. Noonan and Kenny’s so called solution is nothing more than a smokescreen which in reality did nothing for struggling mortgage holders. You should name the bank that is treating you like this and all people in similar situations should also come out. Don’t be made to feel ashamed – they are the ones who have done the wrong – decent ordinary people are all on your side. Best of luck and God give you strength.

    Reply
  • all james has to do is keep all records and when his case comes before the courts leave the judge decide cant see a judge granting a repossiession order and do name and shame hold tough james

    Reply
  • This is a terrible situation multiplied many times over in Ireland .the Government is mention to rule for the people, notwithstanding ,the fact that the banks duped the previous government (the interest from the loans that the Government at 8%)gave to the banks which amounts to a considerable sum of circa €800 should be utilised by local authorities to purchase houses from banks at a discount similarly to the Nama purchase and let these properties back to those in distress in their own houses and thereby and bring some relief to those who have also been found in these circumstances. Any person with only an income from illness benefit should be exempted from paying as this income is small and is required for basic living.

    Reply
    • I think I get your points there Martin, but it is completely unfair that people who have put their life savings into buying a house should lose ownership of that house and then have to rent it back, even at a low rent subsidised by local authorities. Houses need to be revalued so that the banks take some of the loss. The Keane report was all about letting the banks off and making distressed home owners pay.

      Reply
    • this is the point I was trying to make that the local authorities buyback the house at a discount as is the case withNama and commercial property

      Reply
    • Sell the house to the prospective owner Martin at a discount price,why to the local authority?.Sell my house to me and my family at its worth.Thank you Martin for your comments I can see you are trying to be reasonable with solutions.

      Reply
  • Well done to james for telling his story i have no doubt he is not the only one in ireland with this hanging over them
    The banks were bailed but nothing is been done for the people who are struggling this needs to change

    Reply
  • CMD 24/10/11 #

    My apologies that should read Well done James.

    Reply
  • mark rogers thinks the ‘welfare’ in this country will support. no it won’t. i have parkinson’s and though only 58 i’ve been put into the over 65 bracket to get funds for my support. i get home help but my personal assistant has been chopped…why? because i’ve moved to a different area, to a bungalow, for my wheelchair..but this area hse won’t pay for my pa. so i suppose i’m expected to staty indoors and watch tv all day. PAs can take you out in a car, home helps cannot. My PA helps me go to the bank, visit people, walks my dog, helps me do some voluntary work for a clergy abuse group, takes me to hospital, and so on. today; no PA, no home help, but I needed a prescription, money, post office and ink cartridge for my printer. I got the neighbour to get the prescription but she is NOT my carer! I feel humiliated, ignored, abandoned on some scrap heap…so Mark Rogers what will u say to ME, that I should put ‘do not resuscitate’ on my medical notes and spare this country the expense of my existance.

    Reply
  • Mark Rogers@ I don’t see where James says he” wants the bank to treat him as if he didn’t
    borrow the money in the first place”. He is asking for discussions with the bank. I Remember when negative equity first became evident I said that I could not understand why the homes could not be revalued and the mortgages be re estimated . This action would have come a long way towards helping people who had already helped the economy by buying their own home and efforting to get on to the property market !!! Is it ”appalling insanity” to ask for help??? James I wish I could help you in a practical way, but… However I want you to know that your effort in asking for help and challenging the bank is to be admired and you have my respect … God bless you and yours .

    Reply
  • To those who don’t believe James’s story, it is all true. I can verify it, I am his mother in law, and the well being of my son in law, my daughter and my grandchildren are at stake here. And before you dismiss my comment on the grounds of me being biased, yes I am, this is my family too. If you wish to accuse me of embroidering the story and perpetuating falsehoods then that is your problem. James’ story is true.

    Reply
  • @ Mark Rodgers: I think James wants it to end rather than make it worse…
    His position – even though he might have had a more intense thought about a 100% loan – is very similar to a lot of people in this country. There was something called Celtic Tiger, and everyone believed in that, just like they believed in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, and the government ( and it seems YOU still believe in that last one)….Money was available even if you didn’t want it. ” you have a loan? we can lend you on that as well….” No wonder a 100% mortgage was not frowned upon. “All is well in Cloud Cookoo land, we’re all rich now…”

    Banks are financial institutions with only ONE agenda. That is to make money. That is what they were , that is what they always will be.
    Then – in their relentless attempts to make even more (fake) money – they GAMBLE with the money people have put into the banks. And they lost it. The people never knew THEIR money was gambled with. Still THE PEOPLE are held to pay the banks even MORE money now to help THEM recover.

    Now THAT is a nightmare. And it is one that should stop.
    Indeed NO more of our money should be going to banks. NO bailout should actually go to them, as it is OUR money. WE should be bailed out. A bank is a company, and companies go bust. Especially when you are a small company. Banks get bailouts so yes, why not the smaller companies who are doing their bit to keep the economy (or the image of it…) going.

    Families are companies too. You might think it is not the case, but it is Mum and Dad are the owners, and the kids are employees. Shocking? yes. But that is how it is. There are rules. Things you are and are not allowed to do. Kids have to do chores in the house. If they don’t they are reprimanded or penalised. And they would sometimes get pocket money… (I know: it is very basic this comparison, but it does work) .
    So why should THEY not get bailed out? Because they are not part of the Bank? Or of the Government – who are employees of the bank really ….

    And then you want to question his story. Have you done thins with the papers of your bank? Did you question them? do you think James WANTS to be in a position to not pay back what he lent? I can’t read that in his story. He is NOT asking for debt forgivenessAll I can see that this is ANOTHER family in danger, as there are many of them.

    You seem to take the bankers words on face value because they are on a nice piece of paper with a colourful logo, and therefore they are doing everything right and proper.

    The insanity is there and it is ruling.
    And the most insane thing is : YOU are buying it. James and his supporters aren’t…

    Reply
  • Thank you James for speaking up and being a voice for many in trouble. The government continues to pour money into the banks but refuse to help those that have been exposed to the moral hazard of the banks. The government knew and stayed silent about how bad things would get. Mark Rodgers, the taxpayer shouldn’t have to pay any more as the banks were given €5b in their recapitilisation to use for mortgage debt..they have used this money to help people or engage with mortgage holders in crisis. If families are made homeless, the taxpayer will indeed have to pay again. The banks must use this money to deal with the situation and must be obliged to offer a range of solutions that would ensure people stayed in their homes. I am now talking to families on a daily basis that are facing homelessness and it is heartbreaking while the private speculators/bondholders have not lost a cent.

    Reply
  • But what’s your proposal Mark? Banks to continue to try and squeeze blood from a stone? And what then when they can’t do it? Repossession of property that is useless to them but are the homes of thousands of people in this country?

    What’s the point? Or do you have a different plan?

    Reply
  • The only solution is for the people to get to together and either burn down the banks or set up an association of Mortgage holders for the purpose of collective bargaining.

    On an individual basis, as they are recommending, no individual stands a chance.

    As 2, 3, 5, 10 thousand people – they have to listen to us.

    Fight the power !!

    Reply
  • (JAMES McKay)
    In answer to Mark Rodgers no I don’t beleive in Santa Clause,Easter Bunny or the Tooth fairy,my children do however.Also your assumption that we took out a 100% mortgage is wrong (We did’nt),others did and they were encouraged to do so as well.Also the money is already there for Debt Foregiveness,not me saying it the Irish Goverment have said it.
    Thank you every body for your positive comments which far out way the Mark Rodger’s of this Country.You know who I am now Mark,identify yourself.Whats your background Banker,Bondholder or Investor.
    Also Debt foregiveness was not all that was suggrested Mark,please read the article again.

    Reply
    • You seem to believe that Banks exist for some social purpose and that commitments you enter into with them don’t have to be honoured.You also believe that anybody with a different view to yours is a Bondholder Investor or Banker. Guess what James. Little old ladies who put five Euro a week into their local Credit Union are Investors.People with extremely modest salaries and serve customers at the counter in AIB are Bankers and anybody with a modest pension is a Bondholder.
      This country is hugely supportive of families and individuals who are without the means to look after themselves with probably the highest levels of Social Welfare in the world. this is the place you should turn to rather than the Banks who must remain commercially viable for our economy to recover. The loan you took out and now want to extend repayments over forty or fifty years was in turn borrowed by your bank who have to repay it …………..perhaps they should foreclose on working capital loans for business instead and let you get on with it at somebody else’s expense. Unfortunately that route would wreck what is left of our fragile economy and people like your supporters will bring us all down.
      Let us hope that the Government never give in to this type of madness.

      Reply
    • Mark, you are OK with banks NOT paying anything themselves? You are OK with bailouts for them as they played with YOUR money, and You want to give them more of your money? You SAY you don’t….

      Little old ladies paying 5 euro every week might be seen by YOU as investors. They might be, but THEY think they are investing in their own livelyhood. They don’t think they are buying a share in the Credit Union. Those people working at the counters are not bankers, they are WORKING for a bank. They are employees, and can be dismissed of as easily as any other worker in any company. And then THEY will likely get in to trouble, like anybody else.

      The social welfare IS high in this country indeed, but don’t worry, they are trying to change that. The “huge support for Families” is not really taking a high fly anymore. The families supported seem to be the ones better off in the first place. The rest of the country is left to their own devices. I have spoken to too many people who have fallen for the Celtic Bubble, and are now way beyond struggling for their existence. Instead of coming out as a People’s Government, they are “fighting the fraud in Welfare”. Laughable. Unbelievable. Banks are fraudulent, and they get more money to continue their crimes. They are laughing all the way to (or is it from…) the bank.

      Yes, banks should be commercially viable for the economy. But they messed with it all in the first place. So they SHOULD be held accountable. They are not, they invincible and above the law (they think) since they are paying the government… And the economy will not recover by writing blank cheques to Bankers and their Bondholders (you know ” Job well done guys; country in a mess, and we’re getting closer to our personal millions. Here’s a bonus. Please continue the good corrupt work – by the way my personal account is such and such, I am looking forward to my reward. Regards The Government Don…”
      The economy needs VERY DRASTIC MEASURES towards the banks and government to improve. Economy might not even be bad at all. it is just that someone is squeezing the money pipe line and telling us it is our problem.

      Coming out with “stopping commercial loans” is a bit far fetched isn’t it? With banks NOT paying anything at all of the trouble they started…mind you it is not just the Irish banks i am talking worldwide. All the banks in every western Country is in trouble, because of their own speculative dealings with each other, and the governments involvements with it…

      You think it is “not done” to extend loans for a longer period. It is not like the banks are really having hardships over it. They will be bailed out every time around Christmas. Lucky them. Christmas every day…. “The loan you took out and now want to extend repayments over forty or fifty years was in turn borrowed by your bank who have to repay it” I would suggest you do a quick search for Where the money is coming from (little hint: the banks CREATE it themselves, and make you pay for the effort – but you do not have to believe me, plenty of explanations out there if you want to understand)

      The government is PART of the madness, and people like you are mindlessly following their every word. Search, investigate, question! Get wise, and do NOT believe every governmental word. They were voted into power to work for the people, instead they got you working for them. Dangerous.
      I bet you are a YES voter for them to pry in your private life as well don’t you? ( I know – that is another story…)

      Reply
    • regarding the Banks borrowing the money , they didn’t , they created it , and after the person signed the loan agreement ( promissory note ) they bundled it together with other similar items and sold the as securiites, so they got their money back ( if you doubt it , do a search for T Ledger , and read what comes up ) , their books were balanced for each and every loan/ mortgage then created , they then continue to take your money off you on the pretext of discharging your loan/ mortgage with them , which has been discharged already by way of the proceeds from the sale of the securities , now i’m not a solicitor but that stinks of fraud to me , but thats just my opinion

      Reply
  • Well Done James for highlighting once again the distress and difficulty that thousands more like you are going through. @Mark… wake up or shut up.

    Reply
  • theres still many stupid people in this country that cant seem to understand that if people like James get a break it will be good for everyone, nation of begrudgers lives on

    Reply
  • The government bailed out the banks, its about time the people paying for that bailout were given a helping hand.

    Reply
    • Lets bail out everybody.

      Reply
    • Similar terms to those received by the banks could be applied to mortgage holders.

      They could be means tested to qualify for relief.
      Payments could be deferred until they are more capable of making payments.
      Banks receiving government bailouts could write off a percentage of the debt.

      Ireland has a consumer driven economy, helping consumers can only benefit the entire system.
      The wider EU is not waking to the reality that growth is the solution to this crisis not austerity.

      Reply
  • mike d and mark rogers…may you never come on hard times because sure as hell you won’t like it!

    Reply
  • Firstly..well done James on comng forward with your plight….cold comfort but at least it shows others in your position that they are not alone and that can be the worst part of this situation….the feeling of isolation. Secondly, when in the name of God are we going to stop ASKING the banks to do things such as enter mediation…? These people have no rights…no discretion to deal with customers as they see fit…the Ombudsman must be given the powers to direct the banks to a certain point. Sending someone out the front door telling them ‘that’s what we want’ is financial terrorism and banks have terrorised this country enough…they owe the very miserable, pitiful existance to the decisions of Brian Linehan who mistakenly gave them their safety net.
    They shuld be no more…they should now be a dark part of this countries history but they survived. Tey owe James and every other Irish citizen all the have…time to remind them of that in whatever way is deemed necessary.

    Reply
  • Identify yourself Mark Rodgers Banker?,Bondholder?,or Investor? or I will give you no more of my time(you are a small minority not even 1% in this debate).Your cutting a very lonesome figure.

    Reply
  • Can I ask you James, why, when you were working were you struggling to pay your mortgage?
    I don’t condone what the banks have done in this country but I also don’t agree with the people who took out mortgages they struggled to pay back while they were working.
    Before we bought the house we are in now the banks pre approved a mortgage for my husband and I for €1million, crazy money. That’s 10 times what they were saying we were eligible for just 4yrs previously going on the old way of deciding on what a person could borrow at the time. It was totally ridiculous that they would make such an irresponsible offer. We may have had two incomes but I’m no longer working but my husband thankfully is still employed. But we knew, that if either of us lost our job. we would never be able to afford a mortgage that size, not that we ever wanted one that size. We looked at our finances and figured out what we could afford to pay, not what the bank said we could afford, but what we knew we would be comfortable playing and then looked at houses within our budget and we looked in 3 different counties before buying a house we could afford. There are months when it’s tight and there have been weeks when I worry if we’ll manage, because of other bills, but we signed the mortgage agreement, we pay mortgage protection and we pay our debts.

    Reply
  • “People’s houses need to be revalued, and then that’s what you owe.”

    That’s not a reasonable aspiration.

    It effectively would mean that you lived rent-free in it since you bought it.

    There are other families out there, renting, scrimping and saving hard for years to try and put a deposit together; families who forked out a small fortune every year on rent. Some of these families have lived lives of far greater discomfort than yours. Some of them had to rent old houses with no central heating in order to be able to save towards a deposit.

    They wouldn’t be very happy to hear that, had they had less foresight and had they been more reckless in their borrowing five years ago, they could have saved themselves the scrimping and the scraping by buying a house five years ago and having half the cost of it “forgiven” in 2011.

    You are using emotive terms like “homelessness” and “children” to emotionally blackmail the banks into giving you what you want.

    But what you want is unreasonable.

    You want it all.

    You can’t have it all.

    Reply
    • Similar terms to those received by the banks could be applied to mortgage holders.

      They could be means tested to qualify for relief.
      Payments could be deferred until they are more capable of making payments.
      Banks receiving government bailouts could write off a percentage of the debt.

      Ireland has a consumer driven economy, helping consumers can only benefit the entire system.
      The wider EU is now waking to the reality that growth is the solution to this crisis not austerity.

      Reply
  • Enjoy your retirement Mark sincereley,and to say all we attempted was to buy a family home.
    Best Regards for the future.

    Reply
  • Thanks Mum in Law X.
    Ignore these people they are less than 1 %.
    Also thank you to the different Radio stations and Television companys who have been in touch with me today.If I have not responded to you I will soon.

    Reply
  • HI James,Forget about talking to the banks,there not interested in you because you are a nobody.Now read the e book blank of ireland.Demand of your bank that you can see your original contract for your mortgage with your bank.ITS ALL ABOUT MORTGAGE SECURITIZATION SELLING ON OF YOUR MORTGAGE CONTRACT TO INVESTMENT HOUSES.Then see what the bank start saying to you.ASK QUESTIONS AND STUDY THE LAW.Good luck and God bless you

    Reply
  • Lol at your mortgage for Ivory tower :)

    But in fairness: not everyone had a clear view like you obviously had. Most of them were blinded by endless positivity that was shining out of the bankers arses… And there were no doubt lots of greedy guts taking advantage of that. I don’t really get out of HIS story that he was. Do you?

    “theres no way I believe you paid 190k for your house.” People have been paying way more than that…
    What is there not to believe?

    And the man is not whining. He is telling his story….
    If you don’t like it: tough.
    Don’t put him down because YOU have a bad day. Again: read and inform yourself…
    There is a bigger story behind all of this.

    Reply
  • If my comments are offending or upsetting any of you, I apologise. I still hold that we are all responsible to some degree for what has happened, but enough on that score, it will only lead to more arguments.

    Jim, I hope your health recovers and that you and the other mortgage holders can successfully renegotiate with the banks. I am just worried that if that requires public money that people in rented accommodation will suffer and be kept out of the housing market for even longer. A truly fair outcome would be fair to everyone. Good luck with it.

    To Liz, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a man trying to establish secure housing for his family. It is highly commendable. But if we had proper tenants rights rental accommodation would be secure (as it is in some other eu countries) and fair rents would mean house prices could never get too high. Remember the three F’s from history at school?

    “The Three Fs were a series of demands first issued by the Tenant Right League in their campaign for land reform in Ireland from the 1850s. They were,

    * Fair rent — meaning rent control: for the first time in the United Kingdom, fair rent would be decided by land courts, and not by the landlords;
    * Free sale — meaning a tenant could sell the interest in his holding to an incoming tenant without landlord interference;
    * Fixity of tenure — meaning that a tenant could not be evicted if he had paid the rent.[1]

    Many historians argue that their absence contributed severely to the Great Irish Famine (1846-49), as it allowed the mass eviction of starving tenants. ”

    It seems mad that all this has been faught and won before and subsequently lost.

    Reply
  • Please read the Anti-Eviction Taskforce web page below that was set up this week,and feel free to join.

    Kind Regards
    Jim McKay

    http://www.antievictiontaskforce.com/

    Reply
  • Jim, you remind me of a radio show years ago about some pyramid scheme, could have been Gay Byrne or Gerry Ryan. Even after it collapsed there were still people trying to defend it insisting that it would have been fine if the authorities hadn’t stepped in.

    House prices were over the odds. You chose to pay over the odds. Call it shite if you like but it might be more productive to take your head out of the sand or your arse or whatever dark corner it is in at ther moment.

    I have no grudge against you or anyone else in this position. I hope you and your family get through it alright. But I am sick of hearing how it is everybody elses fault but those who borrowed and paid silly money for houses. Other parties (government, banks etc) need to take a fair share of the blame but not all of it.

    Maybe the banks should be forced to accept terms along the lines of the land league and the land purchase act where payment was made over 68 years, but if that was to happen tennants living in a rented property should be let buy it under the same terms. If enough people push for it, it will happen.

    Reply
    • Quote from John Lally “Maybe the banks should be forced to accept terms along the lines of the land league and the land purchase act where payment was made over 68 years, but if that was to happen tennants living in a rented property should be let buy it under the same terms. If enough people push for it, it will happen”.

      Quote from John Lally “Other parties (government, banks etc) need to take a fair share of the blame but not all of it”. (Is this not similar to what the article is saying John?)

      You may not have a grudge against me John but I have little time for your sarcastic insults and your ‘sick’ but you agree with what I was saying in this article basically.
      Do me a favour John read articles before you make comments in future.

      Reply
    • Maybe, Jim, you should go back yourself and read what you’ve written. You want your house revalued and only to have to pay pack the current value rather than what you borrowed. Although you don’t say it, the only way this can happen is for the rest of us to pick up the tab for you.

      You also want the length of time to repay extended. That is all very well but there again the costs would have to be met from the public purse so the only fair way it could happen would be along the lines of the land purchase acts so that tennants in ALL rented properties had a right to buy with similar time and rates to pay it off.

      About blame and whether what I said was similar to your article, in some respects it is if you choose to ignore the details which seems to be something you have a talent for. The main gripe I have with your article is the fact you refuse to accept any responsibility for your predicament
      “I’ve done nothing wrong, so I’m not going to beat myself up.
      ‘People have nothing to be ashamed of’”..

      Take some responsibility for your own actions.

      And read things more carefully, there is a vast difference between what I am saying and what you are saying.

      Reply
    • Yea I did John I entered the MARP “CCMA” Process and now I am challenging it,due to non cooperation from the Bank.You see John I am a person who will not be walked over and I will stand up for myself and My family against even a few people like you or even the Bank which ignored me.My Bank has not treated me within the present process.(There big mistake not mine) As the article points out. My family and I are not the only people in these sitautions thier our thousands of us.Check out the ‘Peoples Assocation Watchdog’ and the ‘Irish Homeowners Unite’ or the ‘Defend our Homes League’.We are thousands.So far there seems to be only 3 of you.To be honest I don’t know why i even bother replying to you as are a such small minority.And even at that you have not identified yourself or your interest in this story.Basically you tried to have a go at me and it has’nt worked.

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  • Ok James……In response to your question I can tell you that I am a pensioner if that helps you. my concern is the absolute lack of understanding that commentators in this debate have on economics. not for one minute do I hold a brief of any sort for the gross negligence and greed of Bank Boards who thought the were beyond the reach of physics…..what goes up will go down. We were drowned in a sea of hysteria to borrow mor more and mor again.There was a conspiracy at play with Banks , Developers, Government ( remember Berties suicide call ) Estate Agencies and the Newspapers who made so much money from advertising. None of them wanted the merry go round to stop. BUT IT DID.
    The Bank bailout was vital…………….it didn’t save the Bankers because we became the owners of the Banks and now we must face the reality that this crash has caused. It may yet take our currency and cause a complete collapse of of the economy which would leave us without Social Welfare, Health Services and even something simple like Street lighting.
    Ok let’s go after the people who caused this but remember we all had a part to play and many people bought houses that in any other circumstances they couldn’t afford.Many others used their own homes as collateral to invest in other properties out of some collective sort of greed and all those matters are now a problem because house prices fell and construction employment disappeared. Banks made the stupid mistake of borrowing short-term money for such lending and the rest is a disaster for ALL OF US.
    Many of the people who write words of encouragement for you are totally well meaning but demonstrate a frightening lack of understanding in economic terms and by God they will react with fury to this comment.

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    • No we won’t Mark, because you’ve made a great effort to explain where you’re coming from this time instead of making immediate judgements like you did in your initial posts.

      The problem with your argument is that is assumes that we don’t understand economics. Can you tell me that those in the hallowed halls of power do? If so, surely they’d have solved this problem long before now, and yet with every passing day we see the situation getting worse for ordinary people like Jim and myself while hearing that it’s all our fault for getting above ourselves. I could go into my own situation in detail but this is Jim’s story, not mine. Suffice to say, I didn’t go mad during the septic tiger but am still feeling the fallout of it.

      It seems to me that those having a go at Jim and others in the same position tend to do so from a distance, they never look at what’s happening to the people affected and continue to nit pick every point until they find one they can exploit, backing their arguments up with generalisations and finger pointing. Someone else said it here earlier, before you start pointing fingers at someone make sure you’re arguing on the same level. In other words, if you haven’t experienced what’s happening to us, don’t go talking at us.

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    • Mark, you’re as entitled to your opinon as much as anyone else…in fact I would say I very much welcome your comments because until we have a balanced and reasoned debate in this country regarding the banks, we as a nation will have this monkey on our backs. My understanding of James situation is that he, as a honourable man wants to pay his mortage but also to have a reasonable standard of life in the meantime…of course in the words of the late Brian Linehan ‘we all partied’ but if partying involves simply putting a home around your family then we have a very narrow and skewed vision of a civilsed society.
      The fundemenal problem in the relationship between us and the banks is a complete lack of trust…from the peoples point..a lack of trust that we will be able or in the rare few cases, willing to repay our borrowings. We were promised time after time that the bailout would ‘free up lendng to small businesses’…..a lie. The facts they produced to the government leading up to the bank guarantee….lies. Their continuing insistance that they are lending in the present economic environment…lies!
      98% of people want to repay their debts…and they will. The banks simply have to show forebearance if for no other reason than to ensure they get their money back..a mortage paid over 50 years is better than never having it paid.
      Understand this Mark….hurting someone when they are down is, if nothing else, shockingly bad PR..bad PR leads to politicians being pressurised by the electorate which leads to poor policy making decisions. In short…far better to work with people than hammer them. James will come out of this just as this country will but he and we require time and that as far as I can see is simply what James is asking for. A small price for the banks to pay given the extraorinary foreberence shown ( all be it a necassary and begrudging forebearence) to them.
      Onwards and upwards James….

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    • Mark, I have no sense of fury at your comments but I would like to point out that they are ill informed judgements which are simply not valid. A significant number of Individuals and families who were caught in the property bubble, have out of dire necessity, an extremely good understanding of economics. Very well respected economists in this country such as Constantin Gurdgiev, Morgan Kelly and David McWilliams have been shouting from the rooftops that in order to help the economy, something needs to be done to help homeowners who are struggling with unsustainable mortgages. As James rightly said….we are not seeking debt forgiveness, we are simply asking the Lenders to respond to current market conditions….how can it possibly make sense to repossess someone’s home and then sell that house to someone for less than the homeowner is actually willing to pay for it……there is no sense in it whatsoever!!! If you move away from the cost of this in pure economic terms and look at the situation from a socioeconomic perspective…..the cost is incalculable. The stress and strain of this situation will most likely result in an increase in family and relationship breakdown which will severly impact on children, mental health, productivity etc; James and those of us who encourage him should be the least of your worries…..Reserve your energy and caustic remarks for those who financially raped this country and who are still walking around golf courses and laughing at the likes of you and I.

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  • Yes it was wrong for Bertie to say everything was fine, but who believes politicians.
    Yes it was wrong for the banks to give 100% mortgages but you should know your limits.
    Yes your situation is unfortunate, but I’ve already bailed out the banks. I can’t afford to clean up your mess too. Sell your house, repay to excess loan and learn a bloody lesson!
    I got a mortgage ‘in the good times’. I was only 23. I was offered 100% mortgage & offered a lot more money than I borrowed. I didn’t accept either….why you ask? COS I’M NOT AN IDIOT!!!!

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    • Was it wrong for us to better ourselves. We bought to build a better future for our children we worked and worked hard and had no problem doing it. We then found ourselves in a position we did not expect My husband lost his job and lucky I was able to take on another job despite working eight hours a day and going straight on to my part time job working 7 days a week. My husband is a tradesman and studied to advance in his job but to no avail as there was no work. Then then worst nightmare came after 17 years I lost my full time job and final nail in the coffin My part time job closed down.We knew we were in trouble and felt like scroungers begging when going through a litany of questions from SW. We both felt embarrassed like we had failed, we had saved for a rainy day but a hurricane came in. We had to sell and move away from family and friends even leaving two sons behind what choice did WE have. How dare you say what you have said when you walk in my shoes then comment.

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  • In answer to your question Ann Conway-Cannon.
    We where not struggling with our mortgage until I was forced to take wage cuts.Out Mortgage was based on an income that we had, but was then taken off us to pay for the crisis in the Banking system.’Caused by the Banks’.
    Our Bank based our loan on an income which was destroyed because of thier wrecklessness basically.
    My wage decreased by approx 20%.

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    • Thanks for your reply Jim. However, we were also forced into lower wages by my losing my job and my husbands wages have also been significantly affected since we took out our mortgage. The bank based our mortgage on both our income also but we didn’t listen to them and worked out ourselves what we knew we would be comfortable paying back and it’s now to our benefit that we did. As I said in my previous comment, we looked in 3 different counties before buying a house we knew we would be able to manage a mortgage on if our income fell. This is my biggest bug bare with all this. We bought a modest house that needed work, it’s an ongoing project, while many of our friends and some family went bigger and are now complaining about how they are struggling to pay their mortgages. They didn’t have to take out such big mortgages so quiet honestly even though I feel sorry for you and my friends, none of you were forced to sign those mortgages. The banks acted irresponsibly in offering the mortgages they did, but so did the people who took them. Even if the government and the banks were telling us the future was rosy, we all knew it couldn’t last.
      On another point, I do not agree with what the bank is doing to you. They should be meeting with you and trying to find a way, any way, for you to pay your mortgage, even if as you said they extended your mortgage for X amount of years at least they would still have money coming in and reducing your debt to them. And in the long run wouldn’t they benefit more if your mortgage took longer to pay as you would be paying them more in interest payments. We have two kids ourselves and I would hate to be in your position right now. I honestly hope that things work out for you, I would hate to see you loose your home because the bank won’t come to an amicable repayment term with you.

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  • Ignore him Liz he has proven to be in the -1%.
    Prime Time Investigates are filming and doing an interview with me this Thursday.They found this article in ‘The Journal’ of considerable interest.
    Thank you Michael Freeman for your fairness and interest as a proffessional journalist in this story supplied by me.I appreciatte the oppurtunity that you and your newspaper has given me to out the ridiculous behaviour of how Irish Mortgage holders are being treated in Ireland by the Banks even when they are prepared to enter into the proper proccesses concerning the Code of Conduct on Mortgage Arrears “CCMA” via the Mortgage Arrears Resoultion Process,”MARP”
    Kind Regards
    Jim McKay
    (We are thousands)

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  • First off Jim, I thought your article was excellent, and I really do hope all works out for you and your family in the future.

    Thankfully, I have not been put in such a position myself, but I have plenty of friends who have, and like yourself, have always tried to come to an arrangement w.r.t. their mortgage. Hasn’t always been an easy path for them either.

    In relation to the nasty comments coming back from people who obviously have never been in your situation…I am shocked to read how people can perceive a situation and be so nasty. And I would hope that none of these people end up in similar situations themselves…but then again, how many have admitted to having mortgages of their own to worry about? Or an over-priced home as they called it…and I really don’t think €190K is over-priced…especially given that friends of mine thought nothing of taking out €500K mortgages 5 years ago. And before anyone chimes in, no, these are not the same people who are struggling with their mortgages.

    Again…hope it all works out for you…and anyone else who may find themselves in this situation!

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    • Ok Emma, lets take this slowly..

      €190K is not over priced because your friends thought nothing of taking out 500k mortgages 5 years ago?
      If it is not overpriced then it would sell for that today.

      FACT: Ireland has had a housing bubble.

      FACT: By definition a housing bubble is when house prices are artificially high.

      FACT: A housing bubble can only exist if the following conditions are met:
      no govt. policy to prevent it. (or in Irelands case a host of polices to encourage it)
      banks throw money at borrowers.
      enough people ignore all the warning signs, borrow mad sums of money and pay over the odds for houses.

      FACT: house prices from the boom years were far too high or to put it differently, overpriced.

      Lots of people couldn’t or didn’t buy because housing in Ireland was too expensive, many of them trapped in rented accommodation paying more than a mortgage in rent. These people did not create the housing bubble but are now faced with paying for it and to add insult to injury are still locked out of the housing market.

      And there is nothing nasty at all in asking someone to take resposibility for their actions before burdening the rest of us with their debt. Bad enough having to pay for it without having to listen to the self righteous whinging of those who feel they have done no wrong by collectively pushing house prices so high that it broke the national economy. I feel that on the contrary, given the tone of the article and the supporting comments, that I and the others in opposition to the general consensus have showed an enormous degree of moderation in being as mild in our comments as we have been.

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    • Thank you Emma

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  • What is so wrong with a man trying to establish some kind of hopefully secure housing for his family that he might hope to own one day? Isn’t a secure environment for our children what we all aspire to?
    He had a job, he had a salary: he has no control over the fact that he is now in a different financial position. The recession, the banks and the government took care of that. James is not whingeing,simply highlighting the position for himself and so many others.

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  • Somehow we all still believe in the tooth fairy , the Easter bunny and Santa Claus. Not one of the comments challenged the story from James in any way whatever. He appears to have taken out a one hundred per cent mortgage which he is unable to pay due to reduced income.He says nothing about any other income coming into the house but he now wants the bank to treat him as if he didn’t
    borrow the money in the first place.Perhaps we should start a similar campaign for small family run businesses that run into difficulty. We could suggest that they stop repayments on overdrafts and term loans that helped set them up because the Banks are too greedy and they don’t really need the cash as the Government will continue to bail them out.
    Whatever the sadness of each story we must face a simple reality…………………there is no more of my money to bail out the banks and I want some of the existing funds already extracted from me for propping them up to be handed back at some time in the future.In the next three Budgets we will all see the real cost of the banking nightmare and people like James and his supporters want to make it
    worse.
    Please save us from this appalling insanity.

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    • Do you think kicking families out of houses that aren’t worth the money owed on them is going to improve the situation?

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    • Dear oh dear. Another one who prefers to make a judgement on someone and tries to make them out to have done something wrong rather than actually taking in the real message. James and his ‘supporters’? Brilliant. Now how about James and his children. Or are you only interested in your own money and whether more will be needed for the banks?

      Sorry but comments like this make my blood boil, especially coming from those who prefer to judge those in difficulty from afar. If you ever find yourself in James’s situation or something remotely similar then we’ll see if you’ll be sticking to the same ground.

      The appalling insanity is on your side if you simply cannot or will not open your eyes.

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    • @Craig, this Mark Rodgers guy obviously like paying for extra corporation housing and social welfare that the state provides for people that lose their jobs and homes, plus he really likes paying through the nose for all the extra policing and courts that are needed when more and more people slip through the cracks, this guy will not let a good recession allow the opportunity to come down on those less fortunate pass by, after all, most of these free-loaders couldnt wait for the recession so they could sit at home, not feeding their sick children and spending all day counting the big bags of loot they get from dole every week

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    • Hey Mark. I’m in mortgage difficulty, I’ll probably lose my home any time within the next 1-2 years.

      Don’t worry, it won’t affect you, so you’re ok.

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    • Mark the word ignorant comes to mind. You simply haven’t a clue..are you even in touch with the real people of Ireland, huge numbers of which are struggling with mortgages. You’l protect the bankers but you want families to be out on the streets being followed by debt for the rest of their lives because many people have lost their jobs. This has nothing to do with 100per cent mortgages. You try loosing your job and managing to pay any form of a mortgage out of that, it’s simply not possible regardless of how much was borrowed. If you are lucky enough to not face loosing your home then be grateful for that..what people would give to trade places. Looks like you could do with walking a mile in someone else’s shoes

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    • Its still wrong to force someone and their family into homelessness. And it was 100% wrong of the banks to offer such mortagages in the first place.

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    • you strike me as the sort of person who goes to auctions of bank repossesions and tries to buy as many houses as he can for as little as possable and bollocks to the family thats been kicked out of their home because of the banks greed, debt resturcturing is the only way for the people of this country to be able to survive this balls up caused by the wanker bankers,your either phishing or a compleate gombeen f/f supporter.

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    • Oh Mark cop yourself on… if you are so worried bout small family business getting hit think about this… if people like James cannot afford their mortgage then how will they have the money to shop in the small family businesses ??? They wont so then what happens …..the family business goes bust and james loses his house so maybe its time for you to see the story from the other side a bit of compassion wouldnt go astray

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  • Oh well, heaven forbid that anybody who borrowed money, to pay a price for a house that was multiple times higher than a realistic value would have been, might now be faced with the prospect of paying that money back.

    Did nobody read the small print?

    What James wants is to have everybody pay his mortgage. Including all those who had to rent when banks wouldn’t lend to them, unless they fiddled the application forms as many others did. The families who couldn’t afford to buy a house in the first place because James and others like him pushed house prices up so high.

    So come on now folks, hands in the pockets now, dig deep and pay a little more to stop James et al sinking to the same level as many were on throughout the so called Celtic Tiger.

    All because the real culprit, the other little white haired man and renowned aesthete, the man who single handedly initiated the boom, the very father of the celtic tiger, Duncan Stewart (who started it all with his program on telly years ago, beforewhich we all lived in mud cabins except for very important big wigs who had thatched cottages with doors, windows and chimeneys), as I was saying, all because poor Duncan can’t afford to pay for the damage done. I don’t think he meant any harm.

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    • John, I was going to respond but I’m so impressed, in fact I’m completely bowled over by your incredible sarcasm that any rebuttal would simply pale in comparison. Gosh you really are great at the sarcasm, has anyone ever mentioned that?

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  • So which bank do you work for Garrai Deas?

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  • Mike D 24/10/11 #

    Blaming the banks for you borrowing too much money that you can’t repay is like blaming the barman for your hangover.

    You made bad decisions, and theres no way I believe you paid 190k for your house.

    If you want to revalue your house that’s your business, but you should pay back what you borrowed.
    You signed the bottom line!! Declare yourself bankrupt, and start again while renting. Oh that won’t work cos you want debt forgiveness & you want to keep the house.
    Cop on!!!

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    • Ehm Mike… please actually read the article. No request for debt forgiveness is done, James asked for mediation. But Mediation would involve interest in People instead of money, and of course that cannot be awarded. Decisions were made in a time you were told “All is well, our tiger provides. No worries.” Everybody started asking ridiculous prices for everything and NO ONE questioned it then. So now you are telling a man down on his knees to “COP ON”??
      you are saying to every family in distress: “tough luck, bankrupt yourself (notice the bank in there again). Oh.. AND START AGAIN??? How? Another loan from another corrupt bank? By doing jobs that aren’t there? Maybe prostituting himself or his family, as long as you don’t have to know about it in your ivory tower?
      YOU are the one that has to cop on. The country is in a terrible state and it will only get worse UNLESS something is finally done about arrogant banks and their mates..

      I am not blaming you, you are a victim of incorrect (dare I say false?) information yourself.
      Please read and inform yourself before you make another uneducated response. To anyone. Not just here…

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    • well said Rick, the way some people go on you would think people wanted to be in this situation, they thought to themselves, “i know! ill get a job in an industry or company that will fail along with thousands of others in any global downturn, ill also borrow way too much money for a house because i dont want my children thinking life is too easy”, i can only assume that people like Mike D and Mark Rodgered are lucky enough to not be in this terrible situation, neither of whom bothered to read the article or else they forgot what it said before they commented

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