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Dublin: 12 °C Sunday 26 May, 2013

Column: Ireland has to stay neutral on Scottish independence

We’ve always decried interference into our affairs on this island – it would serve us well to afford the same approach to the 2014 referendum in Scotland.

David McCann

AFTER 17 MONTHS of wrangling between London and Edinburgh, there is now finally an agreement between the two governments on how a referendum on independence can take place.

The agreement – which allows the Scottish government to set the date in 2014 and for the extension of the franchise to sixteen year olds for this vote – will be welcomed by supporters in the Yes camp. However scratch the surface and you can see that in reality they have nothing to be happy about as they had to concede their important third option on devo-max for a simple in/out question.

Even on the concession they DID score on lowering the voting age, independent analysis suggests that this new voting group will comprise at best just 2.5 per cent of the electorate. When opinion polls are showing a double digit lead for the No side, this concession by the British government pales into insignificance compared to the devo-max concession handed over by Alex Salmond.

So this is the current state of play in Scotland: a referendum campaign that will last 100 weeks, which in comparison is more than double the length of time allotted by the Quebec government in their independence referendum in 1995. However, this column is not concerned with who emerges victorious from this referendum but rather how we in Ireland plan to conduct ourselves during the campaign.

Even before this deal was announced we have seen the Northern Ireland First Minister Peter Robinson make public statements supporting the No side and we have seen the even more bizarre spectacle of motions at party conferences here expressing support for the SNP campaign to achieve independence. I am not seeking to demean the importance of the Scottish referendum. On the contrary. But while I can understand why Irish people may have a view on the issue, I fail to see why people want their respective political parties or governments to adopt an official position either for or against the idea of Scottish independence.

“An act of pure folly”

It is natural for Irish people to have certain sympathies with the idea of a smaller state breaking away from the rest of Britain and charting its own course as this country did 90 years ago. But it would be a pure act of folly to encourage politicians in opposition or in government to actively take a position on this issue. Take the damage to Anglo-Irish relations that would occur if the Irish government, or a sizeable portion of the opposition,
came out in favour of this independence referendum.

Successive governments since Garrett Fitzgerald have made it a priority to foster better relations with the British government achieving great results in resolving the Troubles. We really need to ask do we want to go back to the days when relations between the Dublin and London governments were little more than mutual distrust and suspicion.

The argument against taking a position on this issue goes beyond politics as Ireland’s economic prospects could also be adversely affected. It is estimated that Anglo-Irish trade amounts to around €1 billion per week making Britain one of our most valuable export markets. Ryanair estimates that travel between London and Dublin have risen over 10 per cent in the last two years, making that route by far the busiest in Ireland. All of this does not include the €3 billion bilateral loan given to Ireland with a reduced interest rate in November 2010.

The benefits of a friendly relationship with the British government far outweigh any introverted gratification that we may receive from giving a strong stance on Scottish independence.

“Against the intrusion of outside bodies”

For decades, whether it is Unionists in Northern Ireland or Republicans across the island of Ireland, many have spoken out strongly against the intrusion of outside bodies into the internal affairs of this island. Yet these are the very same people who are now ready to speak with a clarion voice on how Scotland should decide its own future. We took great pride in this island when in 1998 we made a similar decision about the future of this country. We believed that decisions made in Ireland by Irish men and Irish women was surely a good thing.

We should afford Scotland that very same opportunity now without interjecting our opinions.

I do not know what the outcome of the referendum will be in 2014 but I believe that politicians here should take a restrained approach. Over last weekend Enda Kenny spoke of his belief that sometime in the future we will see a unified Irish state. We need to ask ourselves over the coming months – before we urge our political parties to adopt a position on Scotland – how we would like others outside this country to conduct themselves if a referendum on Irish unity were held.

Surely the only rational approach for Ireland to take is to welcome the simple fact of a decision being taken by Scots on their country’s future.

David McCann is a PhD researcher in Irish politics at the University of Ulster.

Read previous columns by David McCann>

Read: Scottish independence – Will they stay or will they go?

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Comments (50 Comments)

  • I say let the Scots make their own decision. But as a Northern nationalist I would personally like to see a independent Scotland as it would undermine unionist rhetoric and it could pave the way to a United Ireland.

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  • Leave them to get on with it I say too. Unfortunately a lot of Scots will look at the state Ireland is in right now, and be more inclined to vote against independence. I fear that this referendum is being held 10 years too late.

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    • Sure why would they leave the union. They will vote to stay I’m very confident of that.

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    • I see the significant percentage of west brits are starting to get agitated and using the media to get the rest of us to leave scotland alone lest they suffer the same fate of freedom that we did….. The decendants of Arthur Guinness an co are still in a fair sized minority fighting for the crown governance….

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    • Oh boy 20/10/12 #

      Scotland has lots of oil that can easily allow them to run themselves economically successfully. They feel that the union actually take the wealth from Scotland and by distributing it then Scotland are less well off.

      They should vote to break away, and Ireland have deeper than national identity with the Scott’s do I feel we do have a right to opinion and once we are not throwing mud at anyone then I don’t see the problem.

      However, articles like this are exactly what spur on involvement. Ironic.

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    • Scotland does not actually have that much oil and the amount of it is decreasing. In addition, far more money is given to Scotland than comes out of it, so this would be a financial loss. Is that a reason to stay? Not necessarily. But hopefully Scottish voters will educate themselves on the pros and cons before voting.

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    • censored 22/10/12 #

      Or maybe they will look at the progress that Ireland has made since independence and decide otherwise. Without independence we’d still be an agricultural backwater, and there would be no worries about the after effects of any boom … no boom either.

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    • ” I see the significant percentage of west brits are starting to get agitated and using the media to get the rest of us to leave scotland alone lest they suffer the same fate of freedom that we did….. The decendants of Arthur Guinness an co are still in a fair sized minority fighting for the crown governance….” Charlie Melia

      Do you Charlei? Do you really? or are you just trolling? I’ve never read such a load of baloney! What the Scots decide to do is up to them, they certainly don’t need advice from the array of pond life that makes up the so called ‘republican movement’ in Ireland. The Scots will do what’s in their best interest and if they have any sense they will look well away from the poisonous little political dwarfs who run this banana republic! By the way I wondered how long it would take for the first ‘West Brit’ insult to fly on here! No surprise really that it comes from someone like you after reading that load of whining garbage!

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    • “pond life that make up the republican movement” wow… I didnt think I’d see such a clear indication I was correct. But thank you Ed. It is clear that just as in 1916 and every other attempt at freedom before it, the natives called them names and spat on them. then fast forward to 2012 and with rose coloured glasses we look back on the easter rising, but not too close or with too much fanfare lest the neighbours across the sea get too annoyed with us. Typical. The “pond life” you so beautifully described are actually the ruling political class who have put their pig swill in the political trough of leinster house the Fianna Gaelabour Party, before the welfare of their own people. Pond life, every member of that party. I don’t like using that sort of analagy but it seems to be the level you operate at and understand so I will stoop for your benefit. It is the duty of every free man to help and guide those that would be free as was done with the arab spring. So we here in Ireland should help and guide the Scottish to their rightful place among the free nations of the world….. If that annoys you west brits…well you theres a big country next door where you would be far happier and we’ll gladly help you with the fare.

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    • Charlie,

      Take that oul’ tripe elsewhere.

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    • Hey Charlie, you must be bent over something terrible with that big chip on your shoulder! As for “So we here in Ireland should help and guide the Scottish to their rightful place among the free nations of the world….” Hilarious! Funniest thing i’ve seen in ages, who in their right mind would want advice from the Irish on how to become a “free” nation. How to swap British rule for Rome rule you mean, or how to screw up the country and then hand it over to the Germans and IMF to run it because the idiots who were elected to run it lost the run of themselves. The Scots are not going to taking any advice from people like you, they have enough of their own doughnuts to spout the kind of barstool rhetoric that you’re coming out with, I hope you have plenty of money for fares Charlie because there’s plenty of young people moving to “the big country next door” who would gladly accept your offer. People like you can’t see beyond 800 years of hatred and cling to the old faithful bogeyman, it’s all the fault of the ‘Big Bad Brits’ Where would you be without the British to hate? Who would you hate instead, blacks, muslims, gay’s? Maybe you’d like to pay all their fares as well.

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    • Are you still here?….. So out of the blue Im a hater now…lol…Have you guys no other country attack? I’m sure the Americans can talk you into attacking someone else…. We kicked you out remember… Go way ….lol

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  • Issues of independence are solely for the people of Scotland to decide. We can naturally comment on the topic and express support/opposition to the issue. Personally – I’d be in favour of an independent Scotland. The Conservatives govern the UK, and yet only have one MP in Scotland. The majority of their support comes from England. That’s not democracy in any practical sense and shows that political opinion varies greatly the further north you go in Britain.

    Imagine Ireland was governed by the Tories – in a hypothetical scenario where only one Tory MP gained a seat here? We wouldn’t accept it on our doorstep, and the Scots shouldn’t either. The SNP come across as an extremely competent party, and I firmly believe they can take Scotland into the future as a stronger, more prosperous independent nation.

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    • Hey Sean. I appreciate what you’re saying, but the same thing has been happening in Ireland for years. I mean look how much power was handed to that Green crowd for example. They should have pulled out of government long before they did, but because they knew the wee heading for political oblivion, they hung on so as to get every penny they could get from the taxpayer Then you had the PD’s with big positions at the cabinet table, when they only commanded something like 8% of the vote. How can that be democratic?

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    • Before making that sort of comment go away an learn how the UK is structured.

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    • Damocles 20/10/12 #

      As one of my Leftier mates suggests, the loss of Scotland could mean that there will be no substantial opposition to the Conservatives for at least in a generation in the remainder of the UK.

      He finds this worrying.

      Bring on independence.

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    • No Rodrigo, that’s not the same thing. The parties you mentioned formed only a minority part of the Government – not the primary party. The example I have cited is where the Tories govern the UK (Scotland included) – while the Scottish electorate rejects Tory policies time and time again… As evident by their failure to get more than one seat in the last general elections in Scotland.

      While many issues are devolved in Scotland (which is more democratic), many critically important issues are not – and are decided by a political party which has zero support in Scotland. It’s time for the Scottish people to break away from the UK and vote a Government which will truly reflect the desires of the Scottish public.

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  • It seems David left out a very important fact in that the only people on this island that are concerned about the future of Scotland are the orange orders in the north. These people think they should be even given a chance to vote on it,thats how deluded that bunch are.If the scots vote for independence,the unionist might section of western scotland and remain in the U.K thats something they have done before..

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  • Scotland is the poorest country in Northern Europe (excluding the ex Soviet Baltic states) which is an absolute disgrace. They have all the potential to prosper but that can’t happen so long as they’re tied on to England. Scotland subsidises the UK through its oil revenues and ends up having to fund useless colonial wars. I wish them the best of luck in breaking free, the only thing that can hold them back is the benefits culture of the West of Scotland which depends on the Labour Party for patronage.

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    • “Scotland subsidises the UK through its oil revenues”

      The Scottish welfare bill is twice the annual revenue from North Sea oil and gas. 90% of Scottish people take out more from the public purse than they put in.

      Bring on independence.

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    • The welfare bill is a legacy of Scottish Labour’s which outrages most voters. A third of Glasgow City Council’s budget is spent on Social Workers. It’s a disgrace that an independent Scotland could get rid of. I look forward to a bonfire of the vanities on this one. The Scottish Tory leader’s figures re: 90% do seem a total exaggeration designed to bolster their support. Their aim to become a kind of Scottish PD party methinks with bizarre stats and right wing outrage.

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    • The welfare bill is a legacy of Scottish Labour’s which outrages most voters. A third of Glasgow City Council’s budget is spent on Social Workers. It’s a disgrace that an independent Scotland could get rid of. I look forward to a bonfire of the vanities on this one. The Scottish Tory leader’s figures re: 90% do seem a total exaggeration designed to bolster their support. Their aim to become a kind of Scottish PD party methinks with bizarre stats and right wing outrage.

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    • Tim, there seem to be two of you.

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  • That someone with a phd in Irish politics could write what presents itself as an essay written by a 14 year old child for the xmas test is the most disturbing thing for me.
    A nationalist will always want and should encourage independence not withstanding its irrevelance consequent to the maastricht treaty.
    How can you talk about “outside” interferance when we are not even running our own country.

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  • David’s right, of course, if Irish people want other people to butt out of their political affairs they need to butt of other people’s political affairs. I don’t know how many times I’ve seen people on this site complain that news stories pertaining entirely to the UK should have nothing to do with them only abandoning that principle the moment the chance comes to put the boot in in some particularly vindictive way or when some salacious gossip crops up.

    This is a British matter. Your ancestors fought to not to be involved in Britain, respect their memories.

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  • Heeps 20/10/12 #

    This is exactly the sort of issue Irish people north and south should get involved in as it will have direct consequences for the future of reunification on this island hence influencing our future as a sovereign nation .
    The break up of the union could start with this and as Irish nationals that will obviously affect us sooner or later as the north will then be next for the union chopping block, and the sooner the better!
    “We don’t like outside interference” its been a massive part of life on this island for decades – foreign investment, US peace process involvement, debt loans, EU directives, UK interference, troika, IMF…..
    Express your opinions and do it freely as this is not just affecting Scotlands future its affecting Ireland’s future too!!

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  • “this is a British matter” “stay out of it” etc etc

    The fact that the UK encroaches on Irish Sovereignty in the North, therefore making the break-up of the UK very much an Irish matter as well seems to be lost on the author

    How anyone cannot see this simple logic is beyond me

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  • Well, we are supposed to be neutral as a nation?

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  • The “logic” in this article is that, Irish politicians expressing an opinion in the debate will annoy the English.
    Well, let’s not have that. In fact, let’s just rejoin the union and apologise for our mistake of fighting for independence.

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    • The whole point is that they’re our greatest trading partners and like it or not they’re friends of Ireland. Stop getting worked up on history you probably don’t understand, and try to think about our current situation. Scotland’s sovereignty is none of our business. And while personal opinions are obviously fine our government which is neutral, should not take a stance. This would damage our relationship with Britain. Our economy needs to come before petty nationalism.

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  • “The benefits of a friendly relationship with the British government far outweigh any introverted gratification that we may receive from giving a strong stance on Scottish independence.”

    That pre-supposes that there will be no economic benefits for Ireland post-Scottish Independence

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  • Irish Government should be neutral but I do think they should let England and Scotland both vote. It goes both ways and there are people on both sides who want to leave the union with the other…and if they form a majority in either country good luck to them!

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  • What a pointless article. I think this must be the most pointless article I’ve ever seen on the Journal.

    People here will probably comment one way or the other because they are interested in what happens. The idea that nobody in Ireland should comment on it is silly. However the view of individual Irish people won’t be of any consequence to the electorate of Scotland. I doubt anybody in Scotland will make their minds up based on the comment here on the Journal.

    On an official level I doubt any of the parties in the Republic will make any statement about it. Sinn Fein might possibly say something if the other Northern Ireland parties make statements but even then I’d be very surprised if they did. As for the Irish Government they most certainly won’t say anything except that its a matter for the Scottish people to decide.

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  • The Scots would be crazy to leave the Union and the Scots are not crazy.,

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  • With the attitude most Irish people have today, Northern Ireland will be occupied by Britain forever. x-(

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  • r fin 23/10/12 #

    Who cares? Is this really a burning issue that needs to be aired on The Journal? A referendum nearly 2 years away!?

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  • A lot of nonsense to attract a few tourists. The Scots will never leave.

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  • I’ve met manyany Scots in my time, the women seem very very slutty

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  • Most Catholics in the North also want to stay in the UK according to polls. Sterling and the amount you get is where loyalty is placed!

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  • Scots won’t leave full stop.
    But the SNP make so much noise on the issue. If Scotland wants independence why hold the referendum in 2 years and not this week?

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  • Niall F 21/10/12 #

    I once had the pleasure of meeting mr salmond. He’s a very clever man and I think the last thing he wants is independence for Scotland (cry horror). Why the fuss then? Well the SNP used this to gain power, it worked. Now they’re bricking it, bricking it because they haven’t the first notion of what to do with it. Currency, border control, NATO, EU membership, taxation. It’s too much for them to handle and they know it, when devo max went, so did the yes vote.

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  • Just taken this from the SNP own website…

    “Queen will be our Head of State, the pound will be our currency and you will still be watching your favourite programmes on the BBC”.

    So where is the independance?

    “As members of the EU there will be open borders, shared rights, free trade and extensive cooperation.”

    Er Scotland as part of the UK IS already an member of the EU and has all the beneifts and cons from that membership so where is the independance.

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  • The Irish Goverment should stay silent. It has nothing to do with them.
    The individual irish person is free to voice an opinion.
    Frankly SNP know they cant win at the moment thats why its a 2 year wait, they are hoping that the economic situation will improve by then, which might get em a few more votes.

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