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Dublin: 11 °C Monday 20 May, 2013

Column: Ireland, we need to talk about Europe

Future EU measures could mean a total fiscal union. If that’s the case, we may as well give up democracy altogether, writes Fine Gael TD Eoghan Murphy.

Eoghan Murphy Fine Gael TD for Dublin South-East

IF WE FIGURE out where we want to go politically with Europe, the options open to us in sorting out the immediate Eurozone crisis should come quickly in to focus.

Under the bailout agreement the government’s freedom to decide public taxation and spending has been curtailed because of the oversight arrangement introduced with the arrival of the troika. Strict parameters have been set within which we must make decisions and govern. Still the mandate from the people and the duty to the state remain.

Our politicians decided that this arrangement had to be made in order to keep the show on the road and that we would receive outside assistance until such time as we could manage our own affairs once again. It was a temporary decision though and designed in such a way that it would not be permanently binding on either party to it.

Things are changing quickly though and the once temporary may yet become permanent for some.

There is much talk of treaty changes to stabilise the monetary union longer term and to do this by introducing greater fiscal union. The most subtle of changes being contemplated involves a formalization of the terms of the Growth and Stability Pact: making the 3% debt to GDP target binding on all members and introducing the possibility of penalties if these strict targets are not met. Bolder measures build from here.

At this most basic level though proposals would involve scrutiny of budgets by foreign parliaments, with the power to dictate changes, and the option to penalise rule breakers if deemed necessary. For the bailout countries it would in reality mean little change from what is currently the status quo.

‘What are we willing to give to save the euro?’

What we are experiencing is an economic crisis of such severity that it has brought us rapidly to a significant political question at home and in Europe. This moment has been hiding in the background since Maastricht. It’s important to understand that the likely long-term solution for the euro problem will mean a further loss of sovereign power. What are we willing to give to save the euro? What do we want from the European project?

The temptation will be to answer these questions on economic terms – how much we stand to lose financially under the various scenarios. These factors are important and will inform the position we take. But they must not define it.

We must not cling to the euro simply because we’re concerned about maintaining foreign direct investment levels, important as they are to our economy. Nor should we do so because we are worried about household debt levels and what would happen in a post-euro scenario (and I don’t make this point lightly). But we cannot go for greater fiscal union because of an intellectually lazy assumption that Europe simply has to go that way.

People will argue that we have no choice and that the euro must be saved no matter what. If this is the case then we have lost our independence already.

I’m a European. And I’m a democrat. And, as there are different ways of organising a democracy, so there are different ways of structuring European cooperation. We already have a structure that for the moment has proved successful in maintaining peace on the continent while also respecting each nation’s sovereignty.

Greater fiscal cooperation could possibly undermine a core principle established in Europe – equality amongst sovereigns.

Recent political events in Italy and Greece challenge basic democratic and sovereign principles. Fiscal union in Europe wouldn’t look very different. The practice of European committees made up of state leaders (including our own) and institutional representatives dictating other members’ domestic affairs would be normalised. What voice then have the people in such an arrangement? Why hold elections at all?

‘Imagine seeing a future Taoiseach marching against proposed cutbacks from Europe’

This might sound a bit dramatic but giving up fiscal control undoes a fundamental principle of our democracy and the European Union. We must tread cautiously. Once that principle is undone we put ourselves determinedly on the road to federalization and true political union.

There are those who want this, who want Europe to take the stage as a proper singular power and it is an entirely legitimate ambition. True a simple treaty change won’t bring this about overnight. But the type of treaty changed envisaged would establish once and for all the collective will and direction of the European project, something that has been debated and contested since the first days but never properly challenged until now.

This isn’t about some false sense of patriotism or hyper-nationality. It’s about democracy, and about how democratic principles are best served – what arrangement of institutions is best to determine and implement the will of the people.

Democracy in this country is too far removed from the people as it is, with basically no responsibility or authority at the local level. Meaning that localism plays out in the national arena, the little picture trumping the big. We know this; it’s why we are where we are today.

The risk as I see it is that we could make this democratic deficit greater. We recently saw a cabinet Minister marching against his own government’s proposed cutbacks. Imagine seeing a future Taoiseach marching against proposed cutbacks from Europe.

The Taoiseach Enda Kenny has said he doesn’t see Treaty change as the solution. Even if it was, I don’t think the citizens of Europe would support it for the reasons above. This means that the current infrastructure must be used and used quickly to address the immediate crisis. Germany needs to understand this now as talk of treaty change is wasting valuable time.

About the author:

Eoghan Murphy  / Fine Gael TD for Dublin South-East

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Comments (26 Comments)

  • If the next EU referendum cedes more powers from States to the EU/ECB it will not be passed either the first or second time regardless of the slogans (yes for jobs?). Ireland needs to close the deficit, bring our own balanced budget safeguards and regain powers from the EU (if that means exiting the euro, so be it). We got ourselves into this mess but the inability to devalue, not being given permission to burn senior bondholders and the contempt with which we are held – are proof enough.

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    • The power to devalue is a mythical beast, conor. It often does a lot more harm than good and can ruin a country if misunderstood. You can see how this happened with the speculation of the Irish punt at the end of the 80′s.

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    • We got ourselves into this mess by repeatedly electing people who you wouldn’t trust to run a sweet shop. There were many rubbish No slogans too, should I list them for you?
      Though honestly I have no idea what the current crises and the Lisbon treaty have to do with one another. I read the Lisbon treaty and there’s nothing in it which caused us to go mad borrowing money which we couldn’t afford. Perhaps we should read any future treaty and see if it’s in our interests. Course that’s unlikely given people are still whining about stuff that isn’t even in the Lisbon treaty.

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  • Excellent article. Well worth reading. It does seem, to me at least, that this financial crises is pushing Ireland and other member states down the plank at knife point to greater fiscal union. The united states of Europe seems more likely in the future because of this.

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  • Have there not already been riots and protests through out Europe due to the wants of the troika, and now they talk of greater fiscal unity, which will incur penalties if not adhered to correctly . I can’t help thinking that the scenario in which this Eurozone project would be successful is one that will not be acceptable to the masses.

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  • The problem with the Lisbon Treaty and the entire attitude of the majority political classes throughout the Eurozone is summed up in that slogan “Yes to jobs”.

    The problem being that it was a monstrous LIE. There were & are absolutely NO policies or commitment to anywhere near full employment. What we have instead is a race to the bottom, ‘winner take all’ structure. A structure designed into the fabric of the monetary union. And there seems not the slightest interest in addressing this, even whilst, as it inevitably would, threaten to blow apart the whole project.

    A properly functioning monetary union (which we demonstrably do not have) cannot work without significant elements of fiscal & political union. Nor can it work without a clear recognition that there are inherent & largely immutable economic & productivity imbalances between countries, just as there are now such imbalances between regions within those countries.

    This means, just as, say, the wellbeing of citizens of Co. Kerry matters as much as those of Dublin, the wellbeing of citizens of ‘peripheral’ or smaller states must matter just as much as those of far more industrialised Germany. On the agreed basis that the ‘whole’ is far more prosperous than the sum of otherwise separate parts. Different activities, whilst equally important to the whole, have different economic value in pure monetary terms. Is it sensible, feasible or even desireable that each region in Ireland or each state with the Eurozone become carbon copies of each other down the last detail & cent of economic activity? No, it isn’t, it’s insane.

    Yet that is the underlying assumption of how the Eurozone was intended to ‘converge’. We see the results. The inherent imbalances became amplified. Those states least able to ‘fit’ – become, essentially economic activity copies of dominant states like Germany – are being punished & left behind to rot with the debilitating disease of high unemployment & austerity.

    This would not be acceptable behaviour toward regions within our own country. And it should not be within Eurozone states. Yet, such mathematically inconsistent nonsense as even more stringent ‘Stability & Growth Pact’ convergence is all that’s being – highly undemocratically – discussed in the ‘core’ states.

    For a monetary union to work it must have harmonisation in public services spending, and at least aggregate elements of tax . But it must also have a clear commitment to fiscal transfers wherever they are needed. It must also have a clear strategy and commitment to (near) full employment in all states. This latter is our key guarantee that no one gets left behind.

    It’s perfectly doable, albeit not remotely within the idiotic, ideologically disguised charter for the rich (only), that passes for mainstream macro economics ‘thinking’ today. Specifically, a (near minimum wage) Job Guarantee scheme, available to every eurozone citizen that becomes unemployed. It can be funded, debt-free, by a properly functioning central bank – +issuer+ of currency (ECB) – at no cost to citizens. When there are available idle resources, unemployed, to be hired, money ‘creation’ for this purpose does +not+ cause excess inflation. When the business cycle picks up again, Job Guarantee workers will be drawn back into private sector jobs by the new vancies & higher wages offered & net money creation is reduced.

    The bottom line is, that if a monetary union cannot underpin it’s social purpose with robust guarantees of a reasonable wage for all, it will fail, sooner or later.

    Ireland should be putting forward such proposals urgently to the ‘core’. And if the ‘core’ are not interested, as now, Ireland shoulkd leave the Euro & pursue its own transformation of past failed economics thinking toward fulfilling a proper social purpose. And yes, a euro exit is pefectly possible, defaulting on the ‘odious’ debts that it should never have been forced to bear alone for the EMU’s collective failure:

    http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/11/moslerpilkington-a-credible-eurozone-exit-plan.html

    Reply
    • I agree that “Yes To Jobs” was inaccurate but the YES campaign in the second Lisbon referendum obviously felt that they needed to have snappy simple catchphrases to put on their posters to counter the equally inaccurate snappy catchphrases that the NO campaign had put up in the first referendum and were doing again.

      This is the problem with politics in Ireland (and to an extent worldwide). It relys too much on the 20 second soudbite or the snappy catchphrase when really things like moentary union or treaty changes are detailed legal documents that require in-depth discussion and thought. But too many of us don’t want to take that time, we want simple answers when they don’t exist and politicians and activists are quick to fill that gap.

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    • The Lisbon treaty came into force in December 2009, the recession started over a year earlier. So you’re complaining that your plane was late when the engines had been damaged by a bird strike and demanding to know why the faster wingtips put on afterwards didn’t sort it. They are two different things, it’s very simple.
      The whole Lisbon campaign was rubbish but the No side started the lying and then got all hot and bothered about ‘Yes for Jobs’. People seem to forget all the bull from the No side, see http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056405732 and see http://www.coircampaign.org/index.php/materials-documents/posters

      And seriously it’s just stupidity of epic proportions to say you’re going to vote No to some future treaty that you haven’t even seen. The next time someone claims the Lisbon treaty caused our current mess ask them to point out the section in this detailed legal document that is the offending one. Trust me they won’t be able to. Also ask then how a treaty that came into force after the recession and after we borrowed all the money could have caused that to happen. I dunno maybe it’s just me but that would seem to be physically impossible.

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    • They went for gimmicks and lies Jim, that it was a lie built on previous lies, does not matter. The continent is now paying for the foolishness of trying to convince the world that 15 different economies, with different economic needs, cycles and interest rate requirements was ever going to work.

      Very many leading economists across the world pointed out that the massive contradictions in the currency, irregardless of integration or otherwise. This was always an inevitability, the day we voted for the Euro in the Maastricht treaty.

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  • Greater fiscal integration isn’t an intellectually lazy assumption, the creation of the euro without such safeguards was political and economic laziness. Did we really think we could create a single monetary policy without proper safeguards to rein in profligate countries? No-one is forcing us to stay in the euro, though it’s challenging to see how we could practically exit. Equally, no-one was forcing us to spend more than we can afford. Having a structure and discipline that prevents this can only be a good thing in my mind.

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    • No one is forcing us to spend what we can’t afford? 390,969 per person in national debt is slightly more than I can afford

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    • But didn’t the author of this piece advocate a ‘YES FOR LISBON, YES FOR DEMOCRACY” didn’t the majority of Irish people believe the propaganda and vote YES in every consecutive treaty? Silly sheep, more interested in the XFactor

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    • I don’t think Lisbon is really relevant here.

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    • Maeve Kelly, I didn’t say we weren’t borrowing what we couldn’t afford. We’re “spending” what we can’t afford. Incidentally the numbers you quote are not real as they are attributing the borrowings of foreign multinationals in Ireland to the people of Ireland. Personal debts aside, your share of the country’s debt is closer to 25,000.

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    • @hot toddy you are joking. Of course we are being forced to pay money back that we didn’t borrow and that we can’t afford. What about all the people who are having their salaries cut to pay back the bankers etc while at the same time they can’t afford to pay their mortgage.

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  • I am sorry but haven’t we always received outside assistance from selling our bonds. Which if the Irish government asked for an investigation into this particular market and a total overhaul of exchange practices they might see the fraud being perpetrated as we speak. But instead we continue down the road of ‘its the Irish people that should suffer rather than going after the fraudulent system’ if the government looked up fraud in the dictionary they should see: the banking regulators in most western country’s which have been eroding rules that control banks influence in governments. If the Irish government had any cop on it would be the ones calling the shots by printing the punt again but this time pull out of the international banking system which is the most fraudulent system and needs complete reform this and looking for backing from the chinese. Although if the other governments in the eu question the system I am sure they can be replaced by technocrats as well.

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  • FG scum are no different to FF scum. Wow. What a revelation!

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  • I disagree with his negative sentiments on greater fiscal integration. I don’t believe that Europe would be in this current situation if they had introduced greater fiscal integration when they introduced the euro (Greece lying their way into the EU aside). In fact I would welcome world class economists reviewing our financial situation instead of a school teacher promoted to minister for finance making our economic policies. Now I’m not suggesting giving away crucial decision making powers that are key to making our economy more attractive to foreign direct investment, but I don’t believe that’s what is being proposed. More of a check on the GDP percentages and a general check on the European debt situation. And on the upside France and Germany would be forced into a larger role in taking care of other struggling economies in the EU. It is also the way the future of economic development is going. And if we do agree to it and it doesn’t work for us, there is nothing stopping us from leaving the EU at that stage. I do believe that it is all or nothing because the current situation is not working.

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  • Lots of people are saying oh we should leave the Euro, oh we should stay.

    No one in Europe is saying what they are going to do to stop the currency exploding. The idea that integration, which would take years will prevent the Euro from falling apart is laughable. It also does not deal with the vast wall of debt that effects every European country. including Germany. Have no doubt that Germany is not able to pay its way out of this, it’s own banks are in massive trouble.

    The Euro will leave us, before we leave it.

    France and Belgium will need bailouts within the next 6 months. Most of Germany’s banks will have to as well. Plans for integration and fiscal union, that won’t deal with one euro of debt and that is why so few in Europe are talking about it.

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  • Steps to follow the moment Ireland move out of the Euro;
    1- Sell every Irish asset you own and move all currency in euros to account in another country. (HSBC allow you to open an account with an Irish passport and utility bill)
    2 – The moment the new currency is released buy all you can through FX markets. Let it gain 10% to 15% then dump it. Every market knows that the government will pump assets in, until it becomes too expensive and the workers will be left holding the can. This has happened with eircom and happened with aer Lingus.
    3- Move yourself and your profits to a country that knows that the only thing markets, whether they be stock, FX or foreign investment value one thing above all, and that is stability.

    You will be leaving a country in ruins. Banks destroyed by capital evacuation. Companies gutted by skill shortages. A whole new unemployement crisis in a country full of cheap labour but where the primary manufacturing facilities were torn down long ago. Factories need to be rebuilt but buying in a worthless currency means Irish companies are folded and multnationals with valuable dollars, pounds and euros. Ireland is left as a small European outcrop, a Lithuania, Estonia, or Latvia. Only without the valuable land links and currency links to the major markets of Germany and France. Sure trade with UK continues. But the UK will not encourage cheap Irish imports for long as they realise the Irish simply can’t afford anything made in the UK anymore.

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  • From what I’ve seen, Fine Gael gave up democracy long ago. Anyway, the government is useless and isn’t in control at all. The government is merely a puppet of the money men, the banks and the whole bloated monetary system. To make changes means being a lot more radical and visionary than any politician in this government can be, and that includes most of the opposition too.

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  • ”Our politicians decided that this arrangement had to be made in order to keep the show on the road and that we would receive outside assistance until such time as we could manage our own affairs once again. It was a temporary decision though and designed in such a way that it would not be permanently binding on either party to it.”

    That from the above article and then this:

    ”Europe plans to scrutinise Ireland long after bailout” – ‘Irish Times’ front page today!

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2011/1123/1224308001247.html

    After that I stopped reading this spin.

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  • im worried about the future.

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  • To be honest, one of the reasons that we’re in such a mess now is because we entered into a monetary union and single currency but didn’t harmonize many elements of our countries banking and financial systems. We end up in a situation where countries that ‘misbehave’ end up pulling the EU in different directions. I don’t have much time for the european work to solve the crisis lately, but i don’t exactly think we in Ireland have the answer either. I’m not necessarily for Federalisation, but i don’t see why everyone is so worried about it. Seems to work for the US, and at least then the supposed “incompetents” who got us into this mess won’t have the power to get us into more trouble in the future. We’ll be able to complain about our new european overlords instead of our own homegrown ones. Exporting our problems :)

    Reply

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