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Dublin: 15 °C Sunday 19 May, 2013

Column: Jobseekers are treated like monkeys by companies paying peanuts

The unemployed are forced to jump through humiliating hoops to get work – at a minimum wage that isn’t just callous but insane, writes blogger Lisa McInerney.

Lisa McInerney

A FRIEND OF MINE, out of work for the past two years and growing ever more pessimistic about there being a future on the blinding blue horizon, received a phone call today on his most recent CV submission. It’s for a job he’s overqualified for. It most likely doesn’t pay well. But choice is a concept tied to prosperity, isn’t it?

“Can you come in for an interview?” asks the employer’s representative.

“I can,” replies my friend. “When?”

“Oh, pop in this evening. It’s just for a chat, a five minute face-to-face so we can access preliminary suitability and then recommend candidates to the GM for an interview.”

It’s a half-hour drive from my friend’s home town to the business address. Having to come in for a five-minute size-up isn’t exactly an exciting prospect. Still, he agrees; he can hardly say no.

“Do you have any experience?” dithers the rep.

“Erm… did you read my CV?”

“Hmm? Oh. No. It was, like… couldn’t open the attachment… computer… erm, problem.”

“I have experience.”

“Great, great. See you later!”

My friend is right to go to the pre-interview interview, of course. Beggars can’t be choosers – sure they didn’t even choose to be beggars in the first place. And yer man God never closed a door but he put his foot through a window, so jobless wastrels must grab a hold of whatever gift horse is skittering past and hang on even if reality is rapping the hell out of their knuckles. Such is post-crash Ireland.

I’m not necessarily on the side of propriety, though. I would have had a serious issue with driving the half-hour to a pre-interview interview. For a start, unless you’re applying for a position at Spearmint Rhino, pre-interview interviews could be conducted perfectly satisfactorily over the phone. Why demand an applicant travel in to meet one of your underlings for a quick size-up? It’s ridiculous, and not a little demeaning.

Secondly, what kind of professional set-up scans a CV for a phone number without reading the applicant’s personal statement or qualifications? It’s so slapdash a recruitment procedure that it sounds suspect; I’m half-inclined to think the poor bloke is going to be bundled in a crate and sold into slavery once he arrives.

Still, this is the mill through which we grind our jobseekers. Poke ‘em, prod ‘em, make ‘em jump through flaming hoops. I’m hearing constantly about how employers are finding it so, so difficult to fill vacancies these days. The damn lazy jobseekers are earning far too much on the dole, it seems, to want to play ball. The Small Firms Association whinges, pitched to a perfect mosquito tone, about how the exorbitant minimum wage in Ireland is suffocating the competitiveness of the economy, as though the only way to stimulate our bled-hollow nation is to squeeze the working class til their corpses are dry enough to use as kindling.

On the new Irish minimum wage, you earn €15,514 a year.

A year.

Fifteen and a half grand.

This is not a salary you should pay a population you hope will pump it back into the economy, is it? Presuming that the average monthly house rent (at least, outside of the capital, where people are sharing kitty transporters and trying not to catch each other’s rashes) is €800, that cuts a whopping €9600 out of that measly fifteen and a half grand. That leaves less than six grand for bills, fuel, transport, food, clothes, healthcare, et cetera et cetera. You see where I’m going with this, don’t you? I don’t have to keep up with the Junior Cert Business Studies lesson. Paying somebody fifteen and a half grand a year to live on in modern Ireland isn’t just callous, or cold, or worthy of a pub snug lament. It’s just stupid.

The argument of the SFA is that small businesses cannot remain in business if they have to pay employees more than fifteen and a half grand a year. Their other, more ludicrously altruistic argument is that having such a generous minimum wage as an entire €8.65 an hour (a whole extra euro!) prices “raw” candidates out of the jobs market. Better employees waste away on the sidelines than have the State “block them from working…” – by paying them a massive seventeen and a half grand a year, logic fans – “in order to retain an absurd notion of what a job is worth”.

Did you get that? Promotion of a cruelly scanty (as opposed to downright insane) minimum wage would be but peddling “an absurd notion of what a job is worth,” according to the Small Firms Association.

Dear Small Firms Association Capitalists. Here’s a capitalist theory. If you cannot afford staff, you have no business operating a business. Here is a rock! Crawl back under it, like good lads.

I know. I’m being a bit ranty, aren’t I? I can’t help it; I’m Irish, and my country’s been sold out from under my feet for a few steel girders and a couple of jolly rounds of golf, and somehow, somehow, it’s entirely the fault of people like me, who work and struggle and toil like Boxer the horse.

Would you get out of bed for fifteen and a half grand a year?

Well, here’s the thing. A huge amount of us would. My company recently advertised two entry-level positions, and received dozens and dozens of CVs – some from ideal candidates, thick on the ground as old chewing gum, and some more from completely unsuitable candidates, who were trying their luck anyway. We even got begging letters. Begging letters.

Despite what the anti-working class brigade would have you believe, most of us seem willing to work for peanuts if it means avoiding the dole office (Irish and non-national, too; the ridiculous notion that the country is full of scheming, lazy Poles is really starting to slice at my tether).

I saw a job advertised this morning that required a candidate educated to third-level, with three or four years of experience, yet was only paying in the region of “€15-25k a year”. Will they fill the position? Of course they will. They can make the candidates drive for miles, sit there waiting for hours, accept ridiculous conditions, and clap and jump for their pittance. The ball, as it were, is in the employers’ court. It’s probably being shafted for rent.

You know the old saying “pay peanuts, get monkeys”? That’s how the Irish working class (oh, and middle class, too. Welcome home!) is currently defined. A bunch of performing animals, worthy of nothing but the whip.

I know the country is broke. I know that there is no obvious solution, and that our myriad economic problems are complex. But I know that punishing the masses for the sins of the few, asking them to choke down their stale bread and like the taste of it, is not the way to claw back a nation state we can all be proud of, morally as well as financially. Cutting social welfare payments, the minimum wage, our education budget… that is not the answer.

Surely any ape can see that?

While I was writing this, my friend checked back in with an update on his pre-interview interview. He was seen by an unprepared staff member who told him that while they’d advertised a full-time position, it was not, in fact, a full-time position they were offering. A few shifts, is all. They made him drive half an hour for a pre-interview interview for half the position he was prepared to compete for. Because they knew he’d do it.

And he won’t have been the only one, either.


Lisa McInerney is an award-winning Irish blogger who writes for The Antiroom and Culch.ie as well as her own website, lisamcinerney.com.

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Comments (83 Comments)

  • Two points in the article sum up the current problem for me

    People have to take pay cuts because: “Such is post-crash Ireland” while they cant take pay cuts because “Paying somebody fifteen and a half grand a year to live on in modern Ireland isn’t just callous, or cold, or worthy of a pub snug lament. It’s just stupid.”

    Its the Catch 22 for recession Ireland. Too many businesses are putting up costs for basics, as you point out “bills, fuel, transport, food, clothes, healthcare, et cetera et cetera”. Yet those same businesses are screaming for wages to go down because their costs in turn have gone up while sales have gone down.

    The government cannot keep adjusting the economy through changes to income, a change must come in costs as well, both to consumers and businesses. How that can be done wiser people than me will have to figure out but unless we can restore prices to post Celtic Tiger levels we cant restore wages to those levels without putting half the country on the breadline and closing half the businesses.

    Reply
  • So sorry Danny D, maybe I should have expected to lose my job when I did, and cleared my credit card and overdraft first. It wasn’t that I wanted hard working people who pay their taxes to foot my bills, I am explaining what bills I had prior to losing my job, that still have to be paid when you lose your job. Otherwise they cut you off, which they did until I started working again and had money to pay.

    At a time I had everything in my house plugged out except the fridge, the heating was never used and luckily enough my mobile wasn’t cut off, so I could still contact family and friends and ring the bank to tell them an imaginary check was in the post to pay the mortgage.

    Climb of your high horse before you fall of it.

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  • A little from Lisa’s column and a little from Danny’s. Lisa is correct on many points – employers are milking it, and demanding top notch experience and education for a pittance. They will suffer in the long run, as these employees will very quickly ditch as soon as things improve and their resentment at being paid so much less than their colleagues finally gets the better of them.

    However, Danny has valid points too. If you are on minimum wage, you houseshare or lodge. You dont rent your own one room gaff. And he is correct about a certain level of fake unemployment, though Lisa is correct to also point out that if businesses cant pay decent wages…then they really shouldnt be in business in the first place!

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  • Great piece, well done.

    I’m ROARING laughing here at the notion that everyone on minimum wage is an 18 year old teenager who can rent a room in a crummy house and go back to Mammy to have his dinners.

    A lot of married people and people with children, with mortgages, are now on the minimum wage you know! Do you suggest they leave their families and go rent a room somewhere? Please!

    Anyone who can survive on minimum wage has my utmost admiration. Often the work is hard, long and physical with no thanks and often with few career prospects. And for €15k? Fair play to them for their work ethic, they deserve a medal!

    I’m also roaring laughing at the notion that being on the dole is a picnic. YEs there are grants and entitlements but you have to qualify for them! They don’t actually throw money at you you know! They don’t say ‘oh lost your job have you? Here, here’s some money, and we’ll pay your mortgage, have a car, we’ll pay for your kid’s creche/school and all your medical expenses. Oh and here’ s a few quid for the pub.’ It doesn’t happen. There are many hoops to jump through and the majority of people don’t get every single extra going either. The majority of people, if they don’t have a partner who’s working, will literally get the job seeker’s allowance and nothing else. If your partner is working, chances are you won’t get a penny.

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    • I understand that minimum wage may not be enough for some. For people with families, kids, maybe sick people to look after (sorry, no sympathy from me for people who though they can pay €500,000 mortgages with €30k salary). But we are not paid for what expenses we have, we’re paid what someone is willing to pay for our experience, skill and knowledge. And if there is no demand for skills we have, it’s not a solution to go on the dole for few years. Why not get a job in more available area – again same example – restaurant. Sure it’s minimum wage. But there are tips. There is possibility of promotion. How is queuing every week for a cheque going to do anything to anyones self-esteem?

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    • Danny, people, for the most part, ARE doing all that they can to avoid the dole queue. Sure, I imagine that you’ll always get those unambitious types that think that it’s “easy money”, but in the vast majority of cases people will do anything at all to avoid having to claim.

      It’s actually not easy to walk into a restaurant job – firstly, there aren’t all that many. Secondly, many employers would baulk at the idea of employing a qualified solictor/hotel manager/quantity surveyor in their restaurant – after all, they’re 100% guaranteed to get up and leave as soon as they get a better offer!

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    • @Lisa: your friend thought driving 30 minutes to a chat about a job was outrages… hows is that doing “everything one can” ?

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    • Danny, do you really expect, say, a recently laid off IT professional to just throw their hands in the air after a few weeks and take any job they can get? “Oh, all right then, I’ll just throw out all my training and experience and start again from the bottom in an entirely different field – I’ve never had any interest in it before, but hey, there’s a possibility of promotion!”. Yes, they might be on the dole while looking for another IT job, but that’s what the dole is *for* – to give people something to live on while jobseeking. Or do you think that, really, nobody should be on the dole at all?

      Quite apart from the fact that, as others have pointed out, a lot of restaurants might be reluctant to hire, say, a qualified barrister who is openly just taking the job as a stopgap until they can get on with their barristering.

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    • @Lisa: Just because one takes any job that pay bills doesn’t mean one can’t keep looking for job in own field. And I’m not saying after week or two. Or month or two. But it’s just driving me nuts when I hear someone lost job 2 years ago and _can’t get anything ever since_.

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  • @Danny D – actually the problem is a lack of jobs for a vastly over qualified and experienced available labour force. In good times or bad you will always have an amount of people who rely on welfare payments and seem to do nothing for years if ever about really looking for employment. Those people will always be there and you cannot use their behaviour to oppress those who are genuinely involuntarily unemployed. Having a job as I suspect you do does not mean you have the right to look down and spit vitriol at those who do not. Heaven forbid you find yourself in the same position.

    Lisa’s article is satirical btw, though very close to the truth. Unlike you I don’t know people who have spent their entire time on the dole getting treated as you put it. The people I know are professionals with a high level of formal and experiential qualification who have been displaced by economic disaster. Lawyers, former company directors, accountants, all manner of professionals and trained qualified trades people. I can assure you it is no treat for them ( or their families) and the thousands like them to be constantly assaulted by attitudes such as yours when they are doing their level best to secure any kind of employment only to be told they will not be short listed because they are over qualified – eh? Ya think?!! Actually do prospective employers ( including agencies) actually read CVs?? Seriously it begs the question…
    Or worse get a screening call from someone merely to establish their ‘salary expectations’. This btw is recruitment and selection code for whittling down the number of candidates by introducing the question of money BEFORE they have been interviewed for a role. The caller just wants to hear what the candidates think the role should pay and then that opinion which is at best a guess in many cases is used against them as a selection criterion. Asking what the role is offering wont help the candidate either as the caller’s intention is at all costs to keep that information from the candidate. Such a method of selection is common, unfairly demeaning and actually not relevant as to whether or not the candidate is the best fit for the role. The point of an interview is to establish a fit between role and candidate. The negotiation on salary is supposed to be based on having established a fit. Not the other way round.

    Being unemployed through no fault of their own does not give you or anyone else the right to further embarrass, degrade and oppress people who are already suffering panic, depression and a seemingly endless set of worries.
    To reiterate the problem is a lack of jobs and a lack of competence and capability in people management in respect to how some organisations seem to be running what few recruitment competitions there are.

    As to your comments on where unemployed people should live. I am astounded by your venom. Am I to understand from your comments that as soon as one loses ones job you are to be stripped of all dignity, relocated to an unemployed people’s concentration camp and systematically reduced to the level of social pariah? What about the married father of two whose mortgage needs paying? What about the married couple with kids who have both been displaced? You can shout greed all you want. However most people bought homes to live in with no notion that they would ever be out of work. Most of these people up till now have never been out of work.
    Yes in the long term arrangements do need to be addressed and people do need to adjust to what they can reasonably afford. However most jobseekers do not want nor expect to be unemployed in the long term – though by recent economic forecasts this may be an unrealistic expectation.
    Your solution of making further cuts to welfare provisions will only push people further into poverty. Welfare cuts do not increase the number of available jobs. Nor does it actually do anything about these people you say you know who spend their entire lives on welfare payments. People who want to work will do anything to get a job as Lisa rightly points out. However the demeaning manner in which they are bring treated and virtually bought and sold to the lowest bidder is appalling. Talk about kicking a [wo]man when [s]he’s down.
    Lisa is also correct in alluding to the economic reality that the working and middle classes need to have enough income to spend. If people do not have enough money to spend in the economy the economy stagnates. This causes more job losses so in fact paying people a pittance only moves them from one source of low survival only income to another, only to have other people displaced and signing on because they don’t have enough to live on. There is a huge difference between a subsistence payment and a living wage.

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  • The comment where I cited the Kelly analysis seems to have disappeared. But the point about the employers who have racked up massive debts in land and property borrowings is this: they do not know how to run a business properly, or at least have not figured out how to do so to date. Therefore the Small Firms Association has no right to talk about “an absurd notion of what a job is worth” and expect to be taken seriously. If the Irish entrepreneurial class (to use Kelly’s term) really knew what a job is worth -to, for instance, the families of the people they employ- they wouldn’t have gone plunging their surpluses into property speculation as they did.

    Ferg declares that he has ‘no sympathy for people who took out mortgages they could not pay back’ but, whenever it comes to business owners, whose investment in the productive economy was described by Davy Stockbrokers as ‘pitiful’, and who, as Morgan Kelly points out, ‘have heavy personal debts which are now an impediment to their companies’ survival’, he seems to have all the time in the world. Because for Ferg this is all part of the natural order -’it used to be the employees’ turn, now it’s employers’- like the Circle of Life in the Lion King, albeit with more hyenas.

    People struggling with the burden of low wages or unemployment is not a problem for some of you people, because -even though the public will be paying vast sums in making sure private speculators recoup their losses- ‘any market corrects itself over time’ (Ferg) so, if someone is having their wages cut, or loses their job, because of the losses accumulated by the speculative activities of so-called ‘entrepreneurs’, this -along with emigration, mass unemployment, is simply Providence. On the other hand, if someone points out that the fallout from this is unjust, they’re examples of ‘the entitlement mentality’ (Joe Roddy). Well, there are far more compelling examples of an ‘entitlement mentality’ out there, and they usually go by the name of ‘Chief Executive’ or ‘Managing Director’.

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  • @Danny – but you’re assuming that it’s as simple as ‘I’ve lost my job, I know, I’ll get a job in a restaurant’. What are there, 450,000 people on the dole? Something like that I think it is anyway. Are there 450,000 restaurant jobs? There aren’t. That’s evidenced by the stories on the news of a hotel advertising 10 summer jobs and getting 500 people queuing on the street. So it’s not as easy as all that.

    Also though – why should someone who is say qualified as an accountant or solicitor or whatever, who loses their job, immediately have to take a restaurant job? Can they not spend a few months looking for another job in their sector, sending out CVs and claim jobseekers allowance, which is absolutley their right to do? We all pay taxes, social welfare is available for those who have lost their jobs, so when, when you lose your job do people like you make them feel guilty for claiming the dole? They’re not doing anything wrong getting the dole. Nothing illegal, all above board. Some people who have been made unemplolyed are married men and women in their 50s. Some have been paying tax for 30 years and have never claimed any social welfare/sick pay whatever. They’ve paid their dues, and now, when things take a turn for the worse for them, it’s their turn to get a little help. What’s wrong with that?

    Sure there are people who’ve never worked a day in their lives and have claimed social welfare for 30 years, of course. But that’s not everybody, that is a much smaller minority. Most people want to get off the dole as quickly as possible, as they realise it’s just a stop gap, some assistance, not a way of life. But I fully support their right to claim social welfare, which they have already paid into, many years over.

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  • As someone who has been on the dole, with a mortgage to pay and maintenance for two kids as well. I got €188, €100 of which paid the maintenance, and €88 for everything else. Everything else is, ESB, Sky, Eircom, Bin charges, motor tax, heating oil, home insurance, life assurance, fuel to drive see the kids every week, food to eat, something for my kids when I see them, my credit card, my overdraft.

    Put it this way, I paid nothing. Why? Because I NEEDED to eat food, and because I NEEDED to see my kids.

    I applied for jobs that I was over qualified for, and never got a response. I applied for jobs paying just over minimum wage hoping their would be some overtime, got no response. Applied for jobs that I was qualified for without knowing what they were going to pay. Driving 90mins for interviews.

    Oh yeah, being on the dole is great, waiting for Wednesday to come for some money, and hanging your head in shame like everyone else in the post office for your few quid.

    I can just imagine what I could afford to pay if I was on minimum wage. Homeless would have more benefits.

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    • Jesus Neuromancer – €188, that’s such a tiny amount of money.

      The reality of life on the dole right there ladies and gentlemen.

      I hope things pick up for you really soon.

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    • It’s not €188. €188 is basic unemployment. This person is entitled to extra cash for each child.

      Overdraft? credit card? Sky? do you not see what is wrong here? You are expecting state, well, not even state, people, who work very hard and pay very high taxes these days, to cover up your debts (the most expensive you can get btw) and a cable?

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    • Danny, what you’ve just said there is very callous. As Neuromancer points out in his comment below, these are expenses he had from before he lost his job, not examples of his wanton post-redundancy materialism!

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    • You obviously have no experience of poverty or extended unemployment Danny.

      You have no idea how someone can have a perfectly ‘normal’ life one day complete with credit cards, overdrafts, Sky subscription, broadband etc. and then without warning end up getting €188 a week which is in fact the basic payment on welfare for the vast majority of people getting welfare.

      If you have a Sky subscription and Eircom broadband and suddenly find yourself unemployed you find that the current account with all those direct debits is emptied in a very short space of time so you go to Sky and Eircom and tell them you have to cancel and they say you’ll have to pay a €200-€300 cancellation fee which you don’t have so you’re actually forced to keep them or else default and risk prosecution.

      Imagine when your welfare payment comes into your bank overnight Tuesday/Wednesday and your AIB Visa direct debit takes €120 out of your €188 at the same time and you find you have €68 to live on for the week.

      Imagine having a decent lifestyle: cinema, theatre, restaurants, nights out, new clothes, holidays and then suddenly it’s all gone – how do you think that impacts on a person psychologically? Socially?

      You lose friends, you lose work colleagues, you lose a whole way of life and living and suddenly you have no reason to get out of bed and you find yourself listening to morning radio and watching afternoon TV (oh yeah that’s where the Sky subscription still comes in handy). You spend hours sending emails to friends and updating your Facebook profile and commenting on friends’ posts ‘jollying’ yourself on the Internet when you’re not emailing CVs and searching recruitireland.com on that broadband connection that you also can’t afford (you could use an Internet cafe but that costs as much over a month as having Eircom).

      Imagine how much of your time is now spent trying to keep yourself occupied to keep from sinking into depression. Imagine how much of your time is spent going from supermarket to supermarket looking for bargains on food and hoping to get to the ‘best-before’ shelf before everyone else. Imagine that you have to budget down to the last euro so that you can go for a walk and have some money in your pocket for a cup of coffee (the average costing at least €2).

      You have no idea what it’s like to find yourself suddenly unemployed and worse still unemployed for a prolonged period of time.

      You have no idea Danny, simple as that.

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    • G 10/05/11 #

      @Danny You’re right! Why don’t we just let the kids starve, in fact let all 450,000 unemployed pull up their socks and get out and work. We have banks and overpaid politicians to pour money into. How dare out government fund the unemployed when those poor bankers need their bonuses. Afterall who needs a living educated healthy population? Not us by the sounds of your views.

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    • Danny have you always been so callous and angry. I work very hard every day, and I know im lucky at this moment to have a job and be in an industry which is doing well.

      But I have also experienced time on the dole and its not some beautiful dream where you go and suckle on the Governments breast and do a merry dance every day. The reality is that its tough, draining and depressing.

      You haven’t got a clue, and you live in some fantasy land. I hope one day you might experience it and see how far you get on €188 a week, I bet you blow it on lunch alone.

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  • That insulting pittance of €15,514 is taxed as well, so you don’t even get that much. Fair play to anyone who can manage on that salary

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  • I love the idea that people with Economics degrees are the ones partly responsible for the mess we currently find ourselves in…

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  • We cannot presume that all on the mininum (or close to it) wage are young, single kids on their first job. What of those wishing to return to work after unemployment who have children, partners, etc? They cannot room share. And it’s not as if we can bus all of the unemployed/minimum wage citizens to rural Cavan to rent reasonable properties and ask that the gainfully employed stay in the Capital.

    I have to laugh at Ferg and Danny’s presumption that the friend quoted in my article was somehow snooty and snappy during the phone call. Whatever gave you guys that idea? He had presumed that the person who phoned him had done so because he had reviewed his CV and thought him a suitable candidate, and was befuddled when asked if he had experience. Reading candidates CVs, even personal statements, before phoning them up would be nothing more than common sense, surely – and would possibly have saved the company the time and the cost of the phone call. Secondly; guys, come on, this is a succinct take on the conversation reported to me by my friend, shortened to suit the tone of the article – it’s not an interview transcript!

    Danny’s solution, that we should cut benefits for long-term unemployed, is short-sighted. It benefits no one to force citizens into poverty. Yes, we risk that some schemeing types will happy just to sit on their bums on the pittance that the State gives them. It’s certainly a better scenario for the country as a whole, as difficult as it is for us to swallow, than to have them begging on the side of the road. We need to educate and incentivise, rather than punish those who aren’t “cutting the mustard”. In the long term, I don’t believe we have a choice.

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    • He asked “have you read my CV”? – who does that when called by potential employer?? Just because he asked about experience doesn’t mean he haven’t read it -it can simply mean he wants to hear us talking about it. And it’s his prerogative to keep the reason to himself after all. If he was asked the same question during interview, would he get up, take CV from interviewers desk, and point his experience with a finger??

      True, you didn’t explain what sort of job he was going for. If it’s a kitchen porter – one hardly would need to go through CV :) If it’s a sale person in the office – obviously different story… In fact, he should appreciate the fact he got a call even though potential employer could not open his CV. Maybe he should consider himself lucky, who knows how many CV he had opened and was not interested without even getting to know person behind it?

      Cutting benefits it’s not about forcing people into poverty. It’s about forcing them to get a job. Any job. In the country with 14.6% unemployment you can’t have restaurant owners complaining that they can’t find staff! and that is the case. And by “find staff” i mean someone who will work for minimum wage + tips, and will have a smile on their face for the customer… Unemployment benefit not meant to be a way of living. And the fact that it doesn’t seem to finish after, I don’t know, a year or two, is just crazy.

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  • Seems to me that the problem with businesses such as those that make up the Small Firms Association is that, generally speaking, the owners and the managers don’t have a clue how to run and manage a business in ways that do not involve leeching off their staff even more when times are hard. During the property boom lots of them borrowed heavily to invest in land and property rather than develop innovative products and processes. Now they’re broke, so whenever the EU-IMF-ECB says ‘you Irish have to get your wages down’, they’re like, “Yeah baby!” even when cutting wages across the board, while it might improve their own bottom line in the short term, will end up destroying their own business in the medium term.

    These people are among the stupidest and greediest stalking the land, rivalled perhaps only by the little platoons of right-wing econo-sadists who pop up with their jejune claptrap every time someone dares float the idea that these people are anything other than gold-plated superheroes.

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  • Ferg 10/05/11 #

    There is some bizarre comment here, ridiculous hyperbole and deliberate misinterpretation.

    Firstly, while not stated, the article reads as if the person in question is a young, single male. Is this correct Lisa? If so, then for him €800 is a ridiculous price to pay for rent. A married person with children and on the minimum wage will struggle with expenses in any country in the world; this is why we have welfare in Ireland thankfully.

    Neuromancer, your situation sounds terrible, but if you are only getting €188 a week with children you are receiving too little. Talk to your local welfare office. I think the Sky TV bill does stick out as being excessive in your comments however and deserves comment. The overdraft & credit card is an example of people with or without jobs living beyond their means; this is unsustainable.

    For those who believe that €15k is a shockingly low wage for this day and age – well, yes, that’s because it’s the minimum wage. The even more absurd corollary to your shock, is raising the minimum wage (let’s say to €25k for argument’s sake). Do this, prices rise……..I think anyone with a basic TV-ready grasp of economics will know the result. A person on the minimum wage is always going to be badly paid relative to other people.

    Karen, a professional is more than welcome to go on the dole while looking for a job, as is a construction worker, or a waiter or anyone else. Everyone’s personal situation is different and many people can survive well for a period on the dole. However, after a year (a) you should realise there are no jobs in your field if you’ve actually been looking, (b) you start to become an awful drain on the taxpayer. Maybe a change of tack is best.

    Like Danny D, I have no sympathy for people who took out mortgages they could not pay back in the vain hope of ever-continuing house price rises and low interest rates. People renting (or with a usually sustainable mortgage), with children, who have lost their jobs and are genuinely seeking employment deserve our help and respect.

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    • Ferg, do you have any sympathy with workers who are being driven to desperation so that business owners can pay off the massive debts they acquired when they invested in land and property? Or do you identify with your rulers so completely that such considerations would cause your head to explode?

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    • Great comment Ferg. As for Hugh, you have some sweeping statements there and you seem to be a proud socialist who hasn’t noticed that it’s the private sector that creates the wealth to make that possible.

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    • As it happens, Ferg, the person in question is a fortysomething with a family, who was working in Snr. Management until made redundant. Out of curiosity, why did you presume he was a young, single person?

      The minimum wage has always been seen as a starting-off point for those in training or just coming into the workforce, a guaranteed base to prevent exploitation of vulnerable people. At the moment, it’s being offered to qualified workers on a like-it-or-lump-it scenario. True, we can say that at the moment, our economic situation means that there is no alternative (choice tied to prosperity again). My very real concern is the likelihood of this snowballing – bad conditions at home leading to mass emigration, people unable to pay mortgages leading to mass default (not at all a healthy prospect for the country as a whole, whether or not they should have had the cop on not to borrow so much), people with no spending money … well, not spending money.

      It’s very worrying. I cannot see how holding people to fifteen grand a year positions will pay off, for all of us, in the long run.

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    • Lisa, did you ever consider it from the employers point of view? You are totally on side with the employee, but can you step back and look at it from an employer, and what they might be going through, trying to keep their business a float, or to start a business with extremely limited resources.

      Employers aren’t some strange elite, they were all employees at one time, they make huge sacrifices to establish a business in the hope for it to make a profit and grow.

      And Hugh, your greed argument is just nonsense, sure some employers were stupid, many employees were too, that was the property bubble and many bought into it.

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    • @Lisa.
      Are you suggesting that your forthysomething be given a salary commensurate with his expectations without telling us what the value to the potential employer is? Would this special treatment not lead to the exclusion of young folks seeking a career and who would then possibly have to emigrate.
      Now please excuse me as I have a clutch to change,the OAP does not run to paying ones motoring expenses.

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    • Lisa as he was in Snr. Management may I suggest that he approach some of the many start-up businesses that are trying to get off the ground, who would welcome some senior guidance, especially in the tech space. As it would be a start-up, he should consider an equity stake instead of a salary until the business gets off the ground.

      He could attend the many free Open Coffee Clubs held around the country, or attend the Dublin Web Summit and see if there is a position he could create for himself.

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    • Ferg 10/05/11 #

      Lisa, well, the picture of a young man attached to the piece doesn’t help. Plus, I assumed you were a young person with mainly younger friends.
      However, if your friend has a family there is likely to be a second income & children’s allowance coming into the house also; the household budget, while in no way excessive, is not €15k minus (€800 x 12).

      Also, your snowball will inevitably thaw out and spring will begin again; that’s how economies go. Any market corrects itself over time; for a labour market this can include emigration, just as in the early 2000s when immigration helped us out here in Ireland. Whatever the causes of this hardest of recessions, there are innocent casualties in any downturn. The subject of my ire is not people with families struggling to hold down jobs, paying back their mortgage or renting a place out. It is a specific sub-section; people who believe they are entitled to a job that pays above minimum (/average?) wage, and will continue to benefit from welfare until something better comes up while simultaneously having debts outstanding OR turning their nose up at other jobs. It is also not specifically your friend.

      I do not agree that minimum wage is solely for trainees or school leavers; it is also for low skilled labour which requires no training and for which there is an excessive demand from the unemployed.

      My points are aimed at the general minimum wage existing in an economy at any point in time, not at €15,500 per annum. Any market corrects itself over time. Pay all minimum wage earners €20k, and prices will adjust; they will be just as badly off on €15k and everyone else’s wages will eventually increase the same 33.3%.

      Also, if I hadn’t had a job in two years, the LAST thing I would mention to a friend is how far of a drive away the screening process took place. Especially if it was only half an hour.

      Hugh, sheesh. “Driven to desperation”, my “rulers”, and my “head to explode”? See the words at the top of my comment regarding hyperbole. That said, I have no sympathy for developers who took out large loans they could not pay back in the vain hope of ever-continuing house price rises and low interest rates.
      (I’m nothing if not consistent)

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  • Is you look at the employer who is trying to keep the business going, all employers must abide by the minimum wage rule. Small business shopkeeper who works in the shop himself to multinationals who makes billions in profit each quarter, both have to pay a wage that doesnt go below the minimum. Yet bigger companies that may have jobs offering low than expected wages for positions that you need experience and a degree and this and that, paying €25k a year.

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  • Yes, Joe Roddy, they are sweeping statements. However ‘sweeping’ is not a synonym of ‘untrue’. My point about the greed and indebtedness is not derived from Fidel Castro, but from rightwing guru-du-jour Morgan Kelly’s analysis of the property bubble.

    ‘By self-selection, the entrepreneurs who establish and run small and medium enterprises are more motivated than average to make money, and the surest way to make money in Ireland during the bubble decade was to borrow heavily to invest in land and property. The heavy personal debts of these business owners are now an impediment to their companies’ survival and may lead to large job losses as owners are forced into bankruptcy over losses in property speculation. The destruction of the Irish entrepreneurial class may prove one of the most enduring and costly consequences of the property bubble.’

    http://www.ucd.ie/t4cms/wp09.32.pdf

    Yes, Joe Roddy, they are sweeping statements. However ‘sweeping’ is not a synonym of ‘untrue’. My point about the greed and indebtedness comes from rightwing guru-du-jour Morgan Kelly’s analysis of the property bubble.

    ‘By self-selection, the entrepreneurs who establish and run small and medium enterprises are more motivated than average to make money, and the surest way to make money in Ireland during the bubble decade was to borrow heavily to invest in land and property. The heavy personal debts of these business owners are now an impediment to their companies’ survival and may lead to large job losses as owners are forced into bankruptcy over losses in property speculation. The destruction of the Irish entrepreneurial class may prove one of the most enduring and costly consequences of the property bubble.’

    http://www.ucd.ie/t4cms/wp09.32.pdf

    You do know that it’s the *private sector*, not the public sector, that’s destroying Ireland’s capacity to generate wealth? It’s the private sector, after all, that has landed the public with its humongous gambling debts. But don’t let that get in the way of your mindless exaltation of private enterprise.

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    • I rented a room in a house here in Cork a few years ago from a guy with his own small but busy engineering company. He went to all the big rugby matches no matter where in the world they were, he went skiing every couple of months, sailing, etc. He was spending like it was going out of fashion. He spoke to me about buying a property in Kinsale, I advised him not to and that if he wanted to invest he should buy on the continent possibly eastern Europe. He bought the property in Kinsale which then crashed in price by 50%. He’s in serious negative equity and he’s using resources from his business to cope which meant he had to ‘downsize’. I also know of a busy local off-license that closed down because the owners bled the profits from it to pay for their debts incurred through property investments. The people with money went crazy and wanted more money and now they’re cutting back in ways that affects people who didn’t ‘party’ during the Tiger years.

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  • why are you comparing average rent to a minimum wage? one should live in a place one can afford. someone on minimum wage shouldn’t be renting “average” place in country where average income is in €30k’s …

    Also, what sort of person looking for a job is answering to a potential employer “have you read my CV?” when asked about experience? looks like this person already have bad attitude toward the job and I definitely wouldn’t hire him/her.

    the real problem is that the dole, along with rent allowance and other “treats” is just too much for anyone to bother with minimum wage. I personally know people who take benefit for years, with state paying for their live, rent even education. Until this is solved (cut!) we will always have this “false” unemployment, with half of the restaurants in town advertising jobs for weeks now…

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    • G 10/05/11 #

      Wow you sound like a great boss to have Danny! G’wan an beat them slaves back to work. How dare they expect minimum wage when you could throw them a few coins every couple of months.

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    • Ferg 10/05/11 #

      Too right Danny D, the friend should work on his own phone manner to get a job. A half hour drive? Jesus, jump at the chance! And plenty of rooms in Dublin city for under €400; €800 is an absurd amount to quote.
      Everything comes in cycles; it used to be the employees’ turn, now it’s employers’.
      I have no doubt living on the minimum wage is difficult, almost by definition. But not everyone can be on above the average wage.
      Ferg

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    • @G: I didn’t say anything about working for below minimum wage. I’m not a boss either – I’m a person who drove 30 minutes for a pre-interview. I even took a cab to make sure I’m not late. And you know what – I would do it again any time…

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    • You say you know a lot of people with state paying for their lives, rent and education. So, if they do study maybe they hope to find proper job some day? What would you prefer? Abandon them? Don’t pay nothing? You will be first here who will complain about increased criminal activity and prison bill.

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    • I don’t mind state paying for their education if they can’t afford it , and they want to do it.

      What I don’t understand is how people can live comfortably for 4 or 5 years out of unemployment benefit and rent allowance even though they are perfectly fit for work. Total of benefits everyone can get it at some 250 quid a week including rent allowance etc, why would any one work for €280 a week of minimum wage in this scenario?

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    • So, here I will agree with you. So, we just need proper system. If you sit on dole and you are not disabled – do some community work – go build walls and clean streets, get busy. In USSR there it was an offence to avoid work, I think it was reasonable enough law.

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    • But Danny, would the best solution not be to pay an honest wage rather than to cut the benefits “package”?

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    • @Lisa : no, I really don’t think that it would be. You can’t rise minimum wage significantly without raising salaries across the board. Ireland already is one of the most expensive countries in Europe to hire. At the time when we do need new businesses it just can’t be done. We already lost Dell to Poland. Workforce here was too expensive. Social walefare is also one of the highest in western Europe.

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    • Look at it from a wider perspective. In Brazil, for example, there is a special program, Bolsa Familia, they pay money to poor people to fight poverty in the long run. From the wiki page: “Bolsa Família provides financial aid to poor Brazilian families; if they have children, families must ensure that the infants attend school and are vaccinated. The program attempts to both reduce short-term poverty by direct cash transfers and fight long-term poverty by increasing human capital among the poor through conditional cash transfers.”

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    • @angryzes : Minimum wage in Brazil is €221 a month…

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    • So, the population of the country is 191 million. And, as far as I understand, 200 euro in Brazil could be equal to 1500 euro in Ireland. Everything is relative but the point was that social welfare payments are necessary even if current generation abuses it – in order to exterminate poverty in the long run.

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  • Brilliant – one of the best factual and entertaining columns!!!

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  • First of all sympathy to the columnist friend who had to endure unprofessional behaviour however that didnt happen overnight, one suspects they always operated like that.

    Next there are plenty of industries that pay well above minimum wage even now, my own experience is in IT and there are very few if any jobs paying €15k a year, the columnist doesnt specify what in industry her friend is seeking employment.

    Sadly this column is full of broad strokes, using this company and some others like as some sort of reflection of employers in general is no better than the other rhetoric published elsewhere that would have you believe that all public sector works are overpaid & lazy and all people claiming dole are parasites on the country.

    Ireland Inc needs to go beyond the them and us mentality and we all need to work together to get ourselves out of this mire we have found ourselves in

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    • Hmm. Well, the sector in question here is Hospitality, but watching various jobseeking friends navigate through various sectors I would also nominate Construction (surprise, surprise!), Retail and Sales for this kind of behaviour. Sales in particular seems rough at present – one of the entry-level positions I mentioned above was in Sales, and we got a glut of CVs from extremely professional and experienced candidates who were willing to start again for a very basic, commission-dependent salary.

      I don’t quite get the point you’re making – that it’s ok to pay certain people €15k a year so long that it’s not across the board? No matter what sector such roles exist in, the fact remains that the current minimum wage is horribly low; we must ask whether it’s ok to expect low-wage workers to put up and shut up in order to maintain the competitiveness of small firms.

      This is not a reflection of employers in general. Far from it. I would question those happy with the line taken by the Small Firms Association, though … and that’s lead me into many a flaming argument with the employers in my own family!

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  • Lisa’s article and the negative comments (that miss the point entirely) from people like Danny, show why we are in serious trouble as a country.

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  • I think the problem is that our education system creates highly skilled drones. Why are so many overqualified people sitting at home trying to find a job in an antiquated market when they could be creating their own opportunities? Because thats how they were taught the way it works in school.

    Instead of sitting on the couch complaining that you have that PHD or this Masters Degree and still can’t find a job go out there and do it yourself!

    We are only treated like crap by prospective employers because we let them, create some competition and inject some new innovation into our country instead of finding another queen bee to slave for. That’s my opinion anyhow.

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    • That works very well for some disciplines/sectors, but cannot be applied across the board – more’s the pity.

      Innovation is key, but not all of us are innovators. That’s not just due to laziness – some of us just don’t have the applicable skill set!

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  • What was the value of the output of the position worth in todays markets?

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  • I love these writers who still don’t understand that the labour theory of value is incorrect… It is scary that people clueless enough, about BASIC economics, to think this way have access to a readership.

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    • Enlighten us, then, Mr. Ninja. I was unaware up to this point that one needed a BASIC knowledge of economics to comment on a social issue.

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    • Enlighten me Dear Lisa as to the value of the output of this job that your friend applied for and maybe the basics of economics will become clearer.

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    • Dear Apathy Now,

      My friend applied for a job and it was, like, soooo not as advertised. What can I do?

      Lisa

      Lads, in all seriousness, this is an opinion piece on low-wage workers in Ireland, inspired and framed by a personal anecdote. It is not a request for advice or analysis on the job my friend applied for! I’m confused as to what personal details you need in order to comment on such a broad issue?

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    • Lisa I am asking a straight-forward question.What was the value of the output of this job? You can’t seriously write an article without giving us all the pros and cons to consider.Never having been an employer myself I would have to have both sides of the story before condemning anyone.
      I have however interviewed people for jobs in various industries in various countries and it was quite an education in itself.
      Now,did this job produce widgets to the value of the salary offered, would there have been a profit after this salary was paid ? Would there have been profit enough for further investment,maintenance etc? I have seen folks busting their guts to find staff wages in the harder times while taking nothing for themselves only to see employees swanning off when things picked up.Not my cup of tea I can tell you.

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    • Wait, what? So output has no correlation to the value of the employee.

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    • Apathy, you’re not asking a straightforward question. I am speaking about low-wage jobs in Ireland. I cannot give you output value for every single one.

      Would it be better to assume your point is that “One must also take into account the output value of low-paid jobs”?

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    • @ Lisa.You published an item here about some hypothetical person applying for some hypothetical position at a stated salary which you then proceeded to belittle without any indication as to the value of the position.Some of the comments here have very little to do with reality,can we expect more in the line of fact and detail from the journalists?

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    • Hang on, surely the point of the illustrative anecdote (and, er, you do realize this is an opinion piece, not an economics essay?) was that A.N.Randomer had been basically lured to interview under false pretenses, ie a job was advertised as full time and appropriate for his skills/interest/haircut/whatever, and turned out to be a different job, after he had made the effort to speak to a company employee in person. Regardless of the worth to the company of A.N.Randomer’s potential labour, surely this kind of shoddy/misleading treatment of would-be employees isn’t doing anyone any favours? To use the widget analogy, even if he was capable of producing ten highly valuable widgets an hour, that would be no use in a job where they actually wanted foobars, or didn’t need so many widgets.

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    • Hi Apathy Now,
      As I have explained to others in the comments section here, this is an opinion piece, as clearly marked in the headline and the hashtag. It is not presented as an “article” or a piece of journalism with pros and cons; it is Lisa’s opinion and personal experience.

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    • Susan you may want to consider an opinion area for the website instead of mixing it up with the news articles. In the online world it can often be difficult to distinguish between an article and opinion piece. This is easy in the national press, say The Irish Times; they have an opinion section completely separate to the news in the newspaper. Maybe TheJournal.ie should consider that approach in future.

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  • Sorry, I wrote that comment twice. My Stalinism forced me to edit Fidel Castro out the second time round.

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  • Wow, this article is awful nonsense about a fictional character living in a fictional world. I honestly don’t know where to start with my reply.

    Pulling in the house rent argument is just odd, especially since you quote the rental price for a 3/4 bedroom house, I didn’t know one person needed so much space, living in luxury like that. Living on min wage? Well that really depends on who you are, if you are under 30 with no dependents it is not a problem, in fact most start-up businesses will pay themselves well below that for the first 3-5 years of their business to get themselves off the ground. However if you are married with kids and you are honestly looking for a job that only pays min wage you need to retrain or change career. Go to college and get trained in an area that you will get a job. This isn’t the fault of the employer, it’s the individuals fault.

    Your article is really summing up what is wrong with a huge part of Ireland, the entitlement mentality, entitled to get a job. If you can’t get a job, go make yourself a job, setup a business, and you’ll quickly realise your attitude will change when the shoe is on the other foot.

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    • What about people who are married with kids, have ALREADY gone to college for years and years to be trained in an area in which they’ll get a job and then lose that job? They’ve already done what you suggested. Going back to college as an adult costs cold hard cash which most people who are unemployed with a mortgage and children, simply don’t have. So again, I’m nearly tired of saying this, it’s not as easy as ‘get into college, train and hey presto a job’. It’s not as easy as that!

      People aren’t honestly looking for a job that only pays the minimum wage, they’re FORCED to take a job for minimum wage to literally put food on the table.

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    • I really wouldn’t bother, Karen. This commentor doesn’t seem to have followed the discussion up to this point and is still rehashing the same old arguments.

      “Don’t have a good job? Oh, just go to college and get a better one!” is a ridiculous solution, for Jaysus’ sake.

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    • @Lisa,your response is less professional than one expects from contributing journalists to this site.

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    • Suitably chastised.

      Though in fairness, I’m a blogger, not a journalist, and we tend to go with lively interaction.

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    • Thanks Lisa. I read your article and commented on it, I didn’t read every single post before doing so, as the comment was on your article, not on the comments. I assume when you say don’t bother, you mean he’s not as the same opinion as us, and thus his voice doesn’t count.

      As soon as you come up with a solution Lisa I would be happy to hear it. Currently you don’t have one, just a long moan of an article with sweeping statements.

      It’s not just about going back to college, up skill any way possible to make yourself more employable, or if you must, create yourself a job.

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    • Hi Joe,
      Just to reiterate – this is an opinion piece, as clearly marked in the headline and the hashtag. It is not presented as an “article”; it is Lisa’s opinion and personal experience.

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  • TP 10/05/11 #

    It’s like a poorly written pass English junior cert essay….a career with the Indo looks likely!

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  • You assume a ridiculously high rent at 800 euro a month. You can share a house in Dublin for under 300 euro.

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  • General question.If you had a man or woman come to you for a position for which they were over-qualified would you hire them or take the person that fitted your job description.What if they were just marking time until something better came up and that you then had to go through all the hiring bit again?
    How much does it cost to hire someone these days? How much do you have to add to the basic salary of an employee to get the true cost before you make a penny profit.

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    • Add 11% employer PRSI to the basic salary, plus extra insurance costs, employment contracts drawn up, depending on job maybe additional parking space..

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    • Sorry forgot to add that you need to train them into the position, the most expensive part of the job. It’s great when you spend 6 weeks training someone in and spending money on them, plus their salary and then they leave with their buddies to New Zealand. But hey, that’s all part of the real risk that an employer takes when employing someone, something an employee knows nothing of.

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