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Dublin: 15 °C Saturday 25 May, 2013

Column: Social welfare should not spark social warfare

TheJournal.ie’s new columnist Lisa McInerney argues that we need to continue giving a leg-up to those worst hit by the recession – even if it means carrying a few benefits scoundrels along the way.

Lisa McInerney

IN THE ’80s, the local authority bought a tract of land near the centre of my home town, and built an estate entirely given over to its housing scheme. The completed homes were basic three-bed terraced, with small front and back gardens and a separate shed. Nothing fancy. Council estates never are.

The vast majority of those awarded tenancy were young, local families; mums and dads with a couple of smallies, maybe a car, maybe a job between them. By the late ’90s, when those smallies were forging paths of their own, a good proportion of the families had bought homes, whether it was the council house they’d settled in, or a larger house in another part of the town. The stay-at-home mums had gone back to work as their children grew older. Some families had started and stabilised their own businesses.

They took the head start granted to them by the Council, and used it to better their situation. They had joined the town’s middle classes.

My own belief is that the concept of class in Ireland is much more pleasingly vague than, say, the UK’s. It’s still very much a new thing for us to have so many economic strata that the populace can file themselves into, and it’s healthy, I think, that this is still tied mainly to economics. Many of my friends were born to working-class parents, but their own children will be middle-class, with the educational and cultural opportunities that comes with it. Work hard in Ireland, and with enough cop-on, daring, and, let’s face it, luck, and you can rise right to the top. We have plenty of entrepreneurs who clawed their way up from less than distinguished beginnings.

I’m not suggesting that we didn’t have class division before the Celtic Tiger – with our long history of occupation and religious persecution, it would take prescription strength rose-tinted specs to think otherwise – but we’ve now got more options for self-classification than ever. We’ve even got layers of “middle-class” now, so that we can distinguish between doctor stock and new money, professional tradesmen and businessmen farmers. And one of the loudest echoing laments that’s come from this economic awareness is that the working classes, those traditionally at the dregs end of the money trail, don’t work anymore.

We’re a socialist state but, individually, we’re determined little capitalists

The term “working class” used to denote those whose daily grind enabled the wealth of a nation; now it’s synonymous with the squandering of other people’s taxes. We could say that this is just semantic misunderstanding, getting our proletariat mixed up with our lumpenproletariat (don’t worry, it could happen to anyone), but I wonder if it has more to do with that strange Irish guilt we seem predisposed to, and the feeling that it’s shameful to need a leg-up from the State. We have a reasonably socialist State in Ireland, with assistance for the unemployed, and largely free education and healthcare, and yet there’s a stigma attached to anyone actually benefitting from that.

We’re a socialist state but, individually, we’re determined little capitalists. With trust issues. And stress headaches.

I’ve noticed one consistently regurgitated declaration in debates about the validity of generous social welfare payments in post-crash Ireland. “We’ve created a welfare state in which it pays more to sit at home on the dole than it does to do an honest day’s work, and we need to slash benefits immediately to take the shine off the brass necks of the unemployed.”

I can understand this reaction, which I think is as tied in with our Irish mortification at needing assistance as it is legitimate anger at grifters avoiding hard graft. Those families I mentioned who took their council house as a stepping-stone were typical of that neighbourhood, but there were those who took the house as a kind of moat around their laziness. Generous benefits enable us to better ourselves, but they can also disable us very comfortably too. You know what happens to bad apples? Nothing. They rot happily in the orchard.

No society can flourish with a starving underclass

And there’s nothing we can do about this. Short of employing a liaison officer for every struggling household in the country, we cannot effectively determine which recipient of social welfare really needs it, and which is just taking the proverbial. Who is genuinely trying to better their circumstances, and who is happy to vegetate. Who wants to contribute to society, and who thinks the State is a benevolent bunch of rich oul’ fellas justifiably ripe for embezzlement.

And even if we were able to distinguish the healthy horses turning down offers of work, from good eggs who genuinely need the State’s economic protection, what can we do, realistically? Stop their payments? Force them out of their subsidised homes and onto the street? No society can flourish with a starving underclass. No child born into poverty can realise their potential if they’re living in an old car, subsisting on their parents’ despair.

As frustrating as it is, Ireland needs to continue as a “welfare state”. We must try to give a leg-up to those worst hit by this recession, even if we risk coddling ne’er-do-wells alongside. The alternative might save us a few quid in the short-term. It might even frighten a few of our scoundrels straight. But in the long-term it will be a counterproductive nightmare, for all of us, whether we worked for it or not.

Lisa McInerney’s writing is also at www.lisamcinerney.com

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Comments (64 Comments)

  • Ronald 11/10/11 #

    We need to provide for those who need genuine support but not for those who wish to take advantage of already struggling taxpayers.

    I fully support a zero tolerance approach to social welfare frauds and I expect most people in this country agree with me.

    Reply
    • All this bulls**t surrounding the poor on welfare is mis-directed grief or residual hate from our bailout. Any psychologist can tell us human beings respond to a crises with lower levels of conscious functioning (bad behaviour). So let us behave our selves to not condemn our working ‘classes’ of irish society because our wealthy ‘classes’ are mistakenly irreproachable or unaccountable. Find a true cause to vent the anger, pain or loss… Let go ..

      Reply
  • Nobody wants people to starve, we just want the system to be fair.

    Fair to those out of working AND fair to those working.

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  • It appears to me that there is a new class system emerging in Ireland, the employed versus the unemployed. It’s amazing that people can change their views on a person in a relatively short time. One week, they’re a productive member of society while a week later, after unfortunately losing their job, they’re classed as a sponger! This is the kind of sanctimonious claptrap that has always gone on with regards to the unemployed.
    People should remember the phrase, “There, but for the grace of God, go I”.

    Everyone is looking for reform of the system, now that the country is on its knees, and is struggling to meet its expenses. The ideal time to reform the system was during the boom when there were plenty of jobs and little excuse to be availing of welfare long term. I’ve no doubt there are people taking advantage of the system, but then people take advantage in the workplace too. We all know the guy or gal who put a heck of a lot of effort into doing as little work as possible, while still taking home a full weeks pay.

    There are no jobs out there at present. People over 50 are resigned to the fact they’ll be lucky to get a place on a Community Employment scheme after working all their lives which is soul destroying for them. The government obviously acknowledges that there is frig all work out there for graduates when they’ve introduced the internship scheme, to try and give them a bit of experience so that they can get a visa and emigrate. People are blaming the “best and brightest” for leaving us all in the crap and abandoning the country but don’t forget that both the previous and present Governments actively encouraged people to emigrate, saying it’d be a great life experience and that they can bring back all this new-found knowledge once we are back on our feet.

    Being on the dole and queing in the dole queue is demeaning enough, with some people walking by obviously looking down their noses at you, without introducing the further indignity of vouchers instead of money. So what, if some people waste it on booze and fags. That’s their choice and their problem. There are many who are “gainfully employed” who do the exact same thing. You can’t start dictating to people what they spend their money on, without going down the road of a totalitarian system. Besides, how much would it cost to introduce and run this new system? It’s like the new ID card system they’re bringing in. As it stands, when people are signing on, they swipe their card in a computer and the official sees all their details on their screen. Would it not have been more cost effective to just have a webcam set up and take a picture as people first sign on, which would show up each time the card was swiped in future.

    Also, with regards to community service, I don’t think this should be made compulsory. If people want to do it, they already can, that’s why it’s called volunteering and forcing people to do it won’t work. In fact, it could be detrimental for the charities/community etc. if the people aren’t suited to the roles they’re forced to take.

    Some people seem to think that welfare is the only reform that the Govt. needs to take care of and then everything will be grand. There are many more areas that need to be addressed, including NAMA and the public service and the Croke Park agreement, just to mention a few. Governments always tend to start at the bottom of society and work their way up when penalties have to be introduced and vice versa when there are bonuses to be handed out.

    People should be careful with their comments and tarring everybody with the same brush, as a lot of people who are currently unemployed, with very little hope, and a lot of whom were the “working middle class” not too long ago, are now struggling and feeling depressed. It can take very little to push some of these people over the edge to consider the previously inconsiderable. Suicide is on the rise in this country and maybe some of the reasons might to be to avoid the shame of it all and being looked down on.

    Instead of picking on one another, we should be aiming our bile and vitriol at the people who deserve it, not those who were victims of faceless bankers/investors/bondholders/politicians/regulators and their whimsies. We need to stand by one another, shoulder to shoulder and make sure this never happens again. I genuinely hope that for those of you, who sit on your gilt-edged perches in your ivory towers looking down at us – the great unwashed of the unemployed masses – don’t ever fall from these perches or, more likely, get pushed off, to end up in our murky underworld existence.

    Reply
    • Sean C 11/10/11 #

      Vey well said… I wonder if this nouveau culture of blaming the victim,"if you’re unemployed it must be your fault", is born out fear; "it could happen to me 5but it won’t because I’m not like them, I’m not a scanner so I’ll get another job"

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    • @ Tom Barret A very well written piece. The poor are an easy target. And people managing on welfare payments are poor. And it’s mostly from this cohort of people that we get the figure of 15 deaths per day – every day – on this island due to health inequities and the unequal nature of this society. No mention of this attrition rate in the general election or this presidential election. It’s as if the policy of ‘reducing poverty’ on this island is achieved by making sure the poor die off at an ever increasing rate. The ESRI’s just published report has exposed this piece to be utter and complete rubbish and shown up the piece to be nothing more than the usual ‘attack the jobless’ invective writing by lazy ‘journalists’:

      “” THE ESRI today poured cold water on the wide-spread belief that people can earn more by being on social welfare than by taking a job. It claimed that ‘’selected, non-typical examples of social welfare payments’’ have created the mistaken impression that unemployed people are better off on the dole. “”

      Let’s hope that the author doesn’t ‘treat’ to an article on how great our bankers/developers are.

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    • Well said Tom. The worst thing about this recession is how sectors of society have become pitted against one another, ‘us’ versus ‘them’ – whether it be public sector vs. private sector or employed vs. unemployed. Unable to be thankful for what we still have we cannot empathise with others – whether they have more or less. Of course there will always be people there to abuse the system, but that is a small price to pay for the enormous contribution made to society by the people who use the system for what it was designed – a helping hand when needed paid for by past and/or future earnings.

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  • When the state provides housing for those who need it, the tenants should at least have some respect for the house, their neighbours and the environment. Some local authority estates are costing taxpayers a fortune just because of vandalism and the laziness of the tenants to keep their place in reasonable condition an I don’t mean maintaining them where the local authority should. I know of a family where there are four boys (all teenagers) and parents who expect the local authority to send out a man to clean the leaves from the eaves of the house. This family isn’t alone in this and they think they are owed a living. There are of course people who need housing and are prepared to do things for themselves. When I see big men sitting around doing nothing only taking from society I get very annoyed. These are the ones who know everything then and have the gall to try to dictate to anyone who will listen to them.

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  • Sorry have to disagree with Column. Yes we need to help people who have hit hard times through no fault of their own during this recession

    Peope can say they’d rather dole merchants over corrupt politicians & bankers but they are all one in the same. They are part of our morally bankrupt society. They are all part of a culture of taking from the giant middle of society.

    Dole should be high initially & put on a sliding scale. The longer you’re on it, the less you receive.

    Why should the feckless get council houses & countless handouts while the middle classes you talk about become the real working class through higher taxation, higher rents/mortgage repayments and less & less disposable income to the point where those inside the social welfare system have more disposable income than those working hard on low salaries.

    How can that kind of society function properly?

    Reply
    • Low paid workers are entitled to social housing, what would you like to do continuing paying rent allowance at a still inflated rate? And spend more money, people need to be housed, council houses are also not FREE

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  • Tom Barrett – brilliant post – says it all.

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  • “We have a reasonably socialist State in Ireland”
    No, you don’t. Look at Finland or Sweden and see the difference between proper socialist State and Old money landlords cratia.

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  • In Ireland the class system has built itself up all around money and the appearance of being better by the car you drive, house you own, clothes you wear with nothing of substance on the inside. People are preoccupied with having the appearance of being a cut above while having no interest in improving themselves on the inside, for example, culturally.

    Reply
  • Everyone in Ireland seems good at making rules for other people but not themselves.

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    • Would’nt get too hung up on class, most of us are just a few pay checks away from the broken class. The holy trinity, the Corporations, Banks & Markets will decide ultimately which class we find ourselves in. Many now on the dole once thought of themselves as middle class. Cheap money, expensive homes & services made us believe we had made it……, more like middle class slavery, who in their right minds would want to aspire to such lunacy.
      There are employers who abuse employees, employees who rip of their bosses, politicians who did not earn their salaries or huge pensions & some who rip off the social welfare system. This is just greed & dishonesty…& its classless.

      Reply
  • I notice most people just seem to attack those on welfare, automatically putting everyone in the same boat. I went from working over 13 years to relying on the government. I entered 3rd level education when I lost my job to try better myself as a mature student and secure a better job for my future, which the government helped me with, so I never have to rely on state benefits again. The reason I never want to have to rely on state benefits again is because there is no pride here. You are looked at differently. The amount is so little, if I had children right now, I would be in a very very bad place. If there are people out there sponging on the dole – which I know there is, there getting bugger all money to do it with.
    Some of my fellow student friends in the same position have even lost tons of weight from what we call the poverty diet, some just don’t even have the money to buy decent food. Some of us were lucky to have grandparents and parents to help us, others; not so much. There is another story out there but people seem to be focused on the negatives and the layabouts. I’ll tell you now, 90% of us are not proud, and not happy, and are doing our damn hardest to better ourselves, not just for us but for our children, and grandchildren, and if further cuts are made, there will be many more hungry people out there.

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    • Similar story Stacey, without the governments help, I couldn’t have gone to college as a maturie. Basically I reckon I could have sat around waiting for a job to materialise or do something to ensure I never have to rely on welfare again.
      Excellent article.

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    • Stacy, great comment you sent!!! It just looks like when you are DOWN in this country the are not happy till you are brought DOWN more and more. How much more can we take!!!!!’

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  • At this juncture, I suspect that any money saved via reduction in the welfare rate would be channeled into deficit correction and national debt. As this area seems to be an insatiable black-hole and as all emphasis is on austerity anyway, I’d rather see 50e, e.g., with potential to be spent in the local economy and/or saved by an individual, than 50e cut from the dole.

    Having said that, perhaps people who haven’t reached a certain level of tax contributions could have entry into an unpaid internship made a condition of their welfare payments (after a certain period of time anyway). They would have to be genuinely learning new skills and working towards conventional employment in an area befitting of their educational level, though, to ensure maintenance of a healthy level of morale. http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/column-social-welfare-should-not-spark-social-warfare/#

    Welfare fraud is clearly unacceptable and something which should be sorted out quickly, but if one is expressing significant vitriol towards societal damage caused by this crime, then I fear that to maintain proportionality of response they would have to literally take to the streets screaming in anger at the banks.

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  • Semantics are important sometimes. “working class” is suggestive of the “middle class” not working – when in fact they do the lions share of hours worked in the week. Many so called middle class people work 70-80 hr weeks just to keep their heads above the water to pay the mortgage. They have no extra money for things like medicine, doctors bills, a TV licence or starting one of these wonderful “pension” things we are all supposed to have but most don’t. Lets call the “middle class” the “working like billy-o class” :)

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    • Exactly! Despite getting minimal raises each year, the extra taxes and surcharges have forced our take home pay down substantially. We have nothing left at th end of the month, nothing. We don’t go out, we don’t drink, smoke or spend excessively. I religiously plan our meals and shop at budget shops, always sticking to a list. We pay our debt each month and are really struggling. We’ve cut down to one car and himself cycles to work just to reduce costs and still there’s nothing left at the end of the month. Meanwhile the neighbours on welfare are partying twice a week, have brand new buggies and baby equipment paid for by a state grant, when I’m trying to figure out where I’ll get an extra €100 to buy a used buggy on Donedeal. The middle class are being screwed left right and centre and no one seems to care. How many people have to emigrate before the government takes notice. Welfare needs to be regulated strictly and now.

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  • Just a suggestion but couldn’t one of the requirements for collecting the dole be a certain amount of community service ie couching teams, keeping their community tidy etc. Say 15-20 hours. It would mean there not getting the money for nothing and also would get people helping and supporting their community.

    Reply
    • Sean C 11/10/11 #

      Anyone who is on the dole because they lost their job has already paid for it in the tax they paid while working. So why should they be forced to pay again by being demeaned in the manner you suggest.

      Reply
    • Hi Cormac, I know that it’s probably not intentional but when you say that people on the dole are getting “money for nothing” I have to profoundly disagree with you. I’m on the dole and the money that I get has been paid for by the 18 or so years of full employment that I was engaged in. This is also true of a lot of other people that are on the dole as well. Just something to bear in mind.

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    • I was on dole for a few months and even tho I did pay for it in prsi payments it is demeaning getting money for nothing. It would be a big boost to your self esteem to have to do some voluntary work foe the dole payment. Not harsh labour but something that would give dole recipients a sense of being part of their community

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    • Sean C 11/10/11 #

      Agreed…but Cormac is suggesting it be compulsory.

      Reply
    • I also think it should be compulsory for say 10 to 15 hours a week. I’m talking visiting care homes, hospitals, working for charity shops. Not scrubbing loos or anything. It’s great to get money into your hand and feel you earned it. And it would be a great way of making long term unemployed feel useful. They should not be thrown on the scrapheap. Most of them have a lot to offer.

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    • Sean C 11/10/11 #

      If you want to do it , it should be available to you, but I disagree with any compulsory conditions, it validates the stereotype that people claiming welfare are somehow not entitled and are scamming the system. In addition it may not suit everyone so they should not be forced.

      Reply
    • I do volunteer work every week since I lost my job in the construction industry, this volunteer work sometimes costs me money but I do it for some self esteem and hoping that I may meet someone through the volunteer agency that will offer me a job.
      I have worked continuously since I left school, paid my taxes and when I was employed I used to look with scorn upon those who lay about doing nothing expecting a handout week in week out, getting all the perks of unemployment… , I can’t imagine something as soul destroying as having nothing to do day in day out but I know plenty who are happy to sit back and wait for work to come to them or even actively avoid any work.
      By doing my part in volunteering I feel like my dole is earned, it’s like a wage.

      Reply
    • @ Sean. I know. This is a hard one. I just feel that it would stop the unemployed being viewed as scroungers and give them the dignity and feeling of self worthiness we all deserve. I’m a socialist!

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    • Reada,I love the way you say “have to do some voluntary work”! :-) Not everyone is suited to going into care home and hospitals and the like. It sounds Utopian and humanitarian all right but I would much rather be working at what I am good at rather than being made do something that I neither have the qualifications or ability to do. I am long term unemployed and I am more than useful except no Langer out there will give me a job. It’s frustrating enough at the moment but if I had to go do something that I didn’t want to do just to give society their pound of flesh I’d go mental.

      This argument was put to me only recently by a guy who was making good money in the IT industry. He was of the same opinion the people on the dole were getting money for nothing. When I asked this smart arsed little shit how long he was out of Uni he said 2 years. By the time I had explained to him that for 18 years of his life my taxes to the state had paid his children’s allowance and Uni fees, free bus etc and that he had been a burden on the State for longer than I was he soon shut his mouth. There is too much of a them and us attitude in Ireland at the moment and you may have noticed it when you were unemployed yourself. It’s humiliating and demoralising enough going in to sign on without being made to work for money that I have already paid for over and over again. I know you might think that it’s a good idea and I agree that it is good to get out and about but I believe that it should be left to the person themselves to do it.

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    • @ Brian. I am a bit of a utopian. I just wish we could see ourselves in other people and treat everyone in our communities as part of our family. Decisions should be made on a human level not economic. If someone in the family has free time cos they had no job I’d give them something to do and make sure they had what they need. I know I sound like a sap. Sorry

      Reply
  • The author of this column seems to confuse two issues: helping people in temporary difficulty with subsidised (not free) housing and unemployment benefits which are in any case mostly paid for by their own PRSI; and enabling a lifestyle of subsistence on generous State handouts without ever working for one day.

    It’s unhealthy for the system to allow an individual to live quite comfortably – with a roof on their heads, clothes on their children’s backs, money for groceries and a bit left over for ciggies and beer – without ever contributing anything at all to society in the form of taxes or work.

    Of course we should not put people on the street, but a combination of sliding scale of benefits according to time spent unemployed, compulsory community work for long term welfare recipients, and a higher minimum wage should discourage lifestyle unemployment.

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  • Tom Barrett you should have written the column. Well written and passionate. It made me cry.

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  • Sean C 11/10/11 #

    I find the antipathy and discriminatory stereotyped attitudes towards social justice, welfare and welfare recipients displayed by some in these Journal forums, very disturbing. In particular the Victorian workhouse era attitude that those in need are not entitled to a social wage and should be kept on the poverty line. Even more so because none of it appears to evidence based, it’s all appear to be based on hearsay and urban myth. Perhaps it’s a symptom of where Ireland is and why it got there. None of the aircraft loads of Irish people arriving in Australia on a daily basis display any of that, they display egalitarian qualities and they fit in easily because of it. Which says a lot about who’s leaving and who’s staying and how it’s changing the mix for the betterment of Australia, and to the detriment of Ireland.

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  • Read this column with much dismay at idealistic, Rose tinted view of welfare system in Ireland expressed by author. What seems to be wholly ignored is that the system has created a whole raft of social welfare abuse that justifies not taking up gainful full time employment where it exists (at rates far higher than minimum wage) as it would pay less than social welfare. A broken system like this is not sustainable, socially just or in any shape or form creating a "leg up" as the author suggests. It is smothering any or all ambition of recipient. We should stop focussing on the individuals motives and examine the governments lack of appetite to change.

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  • I have absolutely no problem with the idea of social welfare. I was made redundant from my first job when I left college and I went on the dole for about three months while I searched for a new job. I admit it felt weird, awkward even to put your hand out for money you didn’t earn, but I always kept in mind that I’d be putting back into the pot what I took out when I started paying tax again after I got established in a new job, which thankfully I found and have been in for the past 2 and a half years. So having been through the system, I appreciate the function it serves, and I’m hopeful that the majority of welfare recipients are motivated and just going through hard times, and see it as a stepping stone to something better.

    However, what I absolutely resent is the fact that a proportion of my tax paid will go towards subsidising the lifestyle of dysfunctional, aspiration-devoid individuals who piss away their incoming on drink and cigs, spawning feral children they have no interest in raising properly, trashing their state provided housing and generally making a mockery of the system.

    That sort of opinion will probably get me slaughtered on here, and commonly gets harsh criticism when uttered by public figures, the criticism usually coming from do gooders who are geographically and socio-economically distanced from the problem. However, living in the Dublin 12 (Crumlin, Drimnagh, Walkinstown) area, I see this sort of thing every single day; parents who spend their whole day in the pub or outside the bookies, while their lunatic, malnlourished kids run riot around the neighbourhood in raggedy clothes, abusing cars, property, other people, animals, you name it.

    I don’t think, for these people , stopping welfare or turfing them out of their house is the answer. What I do believe is that welfare shouldn’t be administered as a lump sum of cash into the hand, but where practical, as a token or voucher based system (we already do it for bus passes) for the different allowances people might receive, in combination with cash, to ensure welfare is used for what it was intended (food, clothing, utilities as opposed to drink, cigarettes and drugs), and to make it less appealing as a lifestyle choice than going out and getting a job. I wouldn’t be a fan of going to a shop and presenting a food voucher myself, but then the dole isn’t meant to be glamorous.

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    • Sean C 11/10/11 #

      Do you know this is a problem or is it just a perception, can you quantify any of this, what percentage are abusing the system ? Or are you projecting the actions of the .001% on the 99.99% who do the right thing. Can we have some facts and figures ?

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    • Not Every one on social welfare smoke drink or do drugs, technically I am a welfare recipient careers allowance to be precise and it’s a small percentage that would do that and why do you think they do it, it’s because people like your self look down on them and treated them like the lowest common denominator, it has a detrimental effect on their self worth and and possible they have problems such as depression & anxiety problems thus why the use drugs or drink.

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    • Sean C, are your figures supported?

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    • Sean C 11/10/11 #

      They come from a plot of normal distribution of standard deviation from the mean. Had I asked where in that plot of standard deviation do the number of those scamming welfare fall only a small percentage of the population, most probably equivalent to those scamming welfare, would have understood it, so I quantified the question using numbers from that plot of normal distribution. I note that there was no response to that question which reinforces my assertion that none of this antipathy towards social democracy, welfare and recipients is evidence based, it’s all urban myth.

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    • 3 months is really not long enough to fully experience the stigma, money problems and decrease in confidence that come with being unemployed long term.

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    • Sean C, many of us have done business maths, some of us are quite good at it. What I was looking for, however, is the same type of impartial study you would have accepted yourself in response to your query to the original post.

      Until Joan Burton’s anti-fraud campaign is complete, we will not be able to put reliable figures to the problem of fraud, and it will, as you say, be anecdotes and guesswork that stigmatises genuine sw recipients. So, these anti-fraud measures should be welcomed by everyone.

      Interestingly though, my earlier comment in support of these measures has received roughly 30% negativity (relative to positive responses), and I have to wonder who feels this way and why.

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    • Sean, I said in my comment that I see it every day, it’s based on empirical evidence, and it’s patronising to dismiss it so casually. Ask any resident around here . Saying it’s a myth helps nobody at all because you’re sweeping what is a real problem under the rug, out of sight out of mind. Surely no matter what the figure , do you not think it’s deeply alarming that the state is subsidising mass personal self destruction ?

      Martina, I don’t look down on anyone actually, as I said I’ve been through the system but was lucky to escape it quickly, and I have friends who have been through it and had to emigrate due to lack of opportunities. I know it’s demoralising. Criticising the tone of my post isnt really an argument.

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    • Sean C 12/10/11 #

      David, as you would well know in a liberal democracy based on the Westminster tradition it’s up to those who are prosecuting an argument to present the facts. My position is there are no facts to back up the antipathy.
      Eric, I’m not dismissive of your opinion, you’re entitled to any opinion you wish to have. I’m dismissive of the tone of this whole debate in Ireland because I’m appalled by it. Generalisations are trotted out without a skerrick of evidence, and presented as inalienable fact, but it doesn’t stop there, they are then used to demonise these people. Until you quantify any issue it’s not a problem, merely a potential problem, so before we hang them lets give a fair trial first. What stands out in stark contrast is the difference in the attitudes of Irish people who are in Ireland and those who are not. If I walked into my local in County Bondi and said "that guy over there is scamming the dole" I guarantee my Irish mate would say "unless you’ve seen his DSP file you don’t know that, and besides a scam is only a scam when you’re not in on it …so shut up and drink your beer".

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    • Eric, you didn’t put your hand out for money you didn’t earn. Don’t let anybody make you think otherwise. You paid for it in PRSI contributions. You were just receiving your own money back.

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    • There were figures out today about those abusing the system and I think it works out at something like 3 per cent of recipients. I agree that some aren’t making much of an attempt to get work and even when non-nationals were pouring into the country and getting plenty of jobs, there were Irish people on social welfare who wouldn’t do the work that these people coming from abroad were delighted to do. Also I agree that some of people in social housing wreck their houses and the local council has to spend millions every year on maintenance costs. Houses that were built in the late 70′s and 80′s had to be all demolished and new ones built in a public housing estate recently and the private estate down the road built around the same time is a credit to those living there but then they had to pay hard earned money for their houses. There should be inspections of public housing regularly and those who damage their house should be put out and let them learn that there are consequences. Z
      Some kind of hostel-type accommodation should be provided for people like this and not three and four bed houses to be wrecked and paid for by the taxpayer. This would only be fair to all the other tenants as well who keep their houses in good condition.

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    • Sean, so you agree then that dole cheats are criminals to be tried to the fullest extent of the law.

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  • 13/10/11 #

    @Tom Barrett, one of the best posts i’ve read on the journal. Fair play. Lisa, you’re one of those people he was talking about. Don’t fall off that pedestal of yours!

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  • I’d rather pay scoundrels than the bank mafia any day

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    • 1
      and it’ll cost us a hell of a lot less too

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    • Here’s an idea. Let’s not pay either. If it weren’t for SW fraud, we could afford better schools, better housing for those in need, better healthcare, better education, all before any of this bank crap started, so it’s not ok just because bankers did it. And if the Minister is reading, you’re going too slowly. Biometric ID for all by Christmas, and let’s start saving money.

      Anyone who “dislikes” support for fair anti-fraud measures, please leave names and PPS numbers.

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    • Christ, if I hear someone say that just because the bankers get away with it, it means everyone else should…

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  • Why aren’t welfare payments linked to tax contributions, and a MINIMUM payment made to those who ave never contributed. This I believe was the case in the80′s and it acted as an incentive to get off the dole and find a job.

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  • What a load of left wing, navel gazing tripe.

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  • “I’m not suggesting that we didn’t have class division before the Celtic Tiger – with our long history of occupation and religious persecution, it would take prescription strength rose-tinted specs to think otherwise”

    What a lazy, smug bit of victim-stancing. Get real — this is the twenty-first century.

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  • What a truly despicable article! A socialist state?? We’re embezzling the state!? I would sooner ‘sponge’ off the state for the rest of my life than be a blind cog in this viscious economic machine breaking my back and my soul for a bunch of thieving hypocrites symbiotically attached to a corrupt banking system. “we’ve been yolked to the plough since time first began/ah we’re always expected to carry the can”. Having a class system is great yeah, let’s model ourselves on the British yeah, imperialism, capitalism! Whoo Hoo! I’m sorry but the only reason I want to work in my chosen field is to explore my horizons, enjoy the subject I’m interested in, contribute creatively and live my life, not fill the pockets of people who wouldn’t give a shit if I ended up on a dole queue! Not so I can feel superior to ‘spongers’ or so I can lift my dumbass head high that I’m contributing my ‘hard-earned’ tax money to blah blahblah. Wake up your taxpayers money is going straight into the bankers pockets, straight into the pockets of politicians and straight into the pockets of psuedo-journalists who proliferate state propaganda, jumping into bed with whichever fascist will fast-track her career!

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  • I think they should change the way jobseekers benefit is paid anyway. Rather than getting a small amount indefinitely you should get say 70-80% for up to a year depending on how long you have been working. After that you get fed, medical care and that’s it, you have to fend for yourself. Anyone who can’t work for medical reasons should be treated differently.

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  • read what J. K. Galbraith had to say on this subject,

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