The Labor party will likely be voted out of office in 2016 for facilitating savage pay cuts. As for the TD who wrote this…

have to agree Tony these men and women that work in their profession do not have it easy and having this crap thrown at them is criminal and the people responsible for this will never be convicted ,speaking of criminal did you see the gangster standing above this article in the journal we cannot comment on poor seanie in case we upset him or his ilk or put people the wiser as to what is really happening in our country .every institution in this country that is alleged to be investigating these gangsters are covering up for these criminals all this we are getting is window dressing .

They should give the politicians the same with no allowances, and see how that goes down.

We are almost 20bn in deficit in our budget, and are pluggin the gap with emergency bailouts from abroad. We need to run our country within our means, spending at most our Tax collected.

We have hugely increased taxation over successive budgets, and have made only modest cuts to spending, unfortunately cuts will have to be made. This is one of many many efforts to do this.

Benchmarking and increments have resulted in massive overspending, and public sector pay will have to be tackled. Including pensions.

I am not saying this measure is the best conceived or most appropriate but the saving will have to be made from everywhere.

I wish it was not the case, but if you consider the greater picture for a minute, wher do you suggest the we find 20bn? Or is it just anywhere else that does not effect you?

Well we could start with everyone in the private sector and self employed paying the appropriate tax not fiddling the books and working in the black market.

Google,

Most countries run a budget deficit most of the time. They finance the difference by borrowing the money in the market. Or if they control their own currency and are prepared to accept some inflation, they can simply create new money by buying their own government’s bonds etc (Quantitative easing as the Yanks call it). Even in the depths of the 1980s recession, Ireland was always able to go to the market until Brian Lenihan bailed out the banks in 2008. The markets then realised Ireland would not be able to cover the massive banking losses and pay them back and so the interest rate they demanded rose to an unaffordable level. This pushed us into the hands of the ECB/IMF who now lend us the money and charge substantial interest so that we can pay the banking debt as well as our budget deficit.
This fixation on the budget deficit is driven by the political agenda to distract attention from the looting of the country to pay private banking debt. €9 billion approximately of this year’s budget deficit of €15-17 billion is the result of bank debt repayments and interest. This does not take into account the indirect cost of our zombie banks on the budget deficit over the past 5 years. Credit has been denied to viable businesses resulting in multiple closures throwing thousands of people onto the dole where they draw social welfare instead of contributing income tax in a double blow to the exchequer. The bank collapse and bailout is responsible for a large part of our budget deficit in addition to being the reason that we cannot finance that deficit through the normal channels.
If we repudiate all outstanding illegitimate banking debts and interest repayments on that banking debt then we will no longer be dependent on the ECB/EU and will regain our economic sovereignty.
So to answer your question. We don’t need to find €20 billion in tax increases and cutbacks to our social services. We just need to stop paying debts that are not ours to pay.

Coddler

The figures I quote are before a penny is paid to banks.

Any money given to banks so far is essentially borrowed / bailout, the current deficit is purely spending more than is collected.
We will possibly at some stage in the future be required to make repayments on money borrowed to fund bank, but that day will not come until we balance our own books. All repayments, all money to banks is currently BORROWED to make the payments. We are spending every penny we generate at home services / money we dont have.

Your other comments about USA funding themselves through borrowing is true but does not apply to us, likewise for the UK. I will explain why, US borrowing is backed by global trade in oil being carried out in Dollars, allowing huge deficits, due to massive inflows of money. UK have the commonwealth and a massive tax base compared to us.

Sensible countries can borrow small amounts and roll over to pay for current spending, assuming of course anyone is willing to lend to them. This depends on whether they are credible in terms of revenue verses spending.

We are ridiculously overspending, not to banks !! but on our own internal services and public wages.

A country our size needs to have a balanced budget or very close, the current enourmous deficit needs to be fixed before we will be considered credible.

A massive component in our problems is huge overspending, you can attempt to mask this, but facts are facts, and figures are figures.

Bank payments are a red herring.

Google,
That’s not correct. The Pension Reserve fund was raided to the tune of €20 billion which was pumped directly into the banks. That money was not BORROWED. The interest payments on the money we have been forced to borrow to bail out the banks also appears in our deficit. Apparently your facts are not the same as mine.

Coddler

So you are saying we paid for the banks with pension reserve fund THEN borrowed the same amount to pay for our deficit that year? You could equally say we used the reserve fund to pay for deficit and BORROWED the 20bn for bailout, it is simply perspective and irrelevant. We then BORROWED far far more to pay for the bailout.

The interest payments you are referring too we BORROW to pay, simply compare collected taxes and current spending. Spending is more, and anything further that is paid is BORROWED.

Do you understand?

Google,

The 20 billion deficit figure is yours not mine. The current budget deficit is somewhere between 15 and 17 billion.
20 billion was stolen from the Pension Reserve Fund at the start of the crisis in 2008 and pumped directly into the banks. In addition to this 20 billion direct cash injection, we have also borrowed another 45 billion or so to give the total of 65 billion that has been pumped into the banks so far. This does not include the 35 billion that we have ploughed into NAMA (another bank bailout under a different name) to give a grand total of 100 billion or so. So we have borrowed 80 billion approximately to shore up the banks. This figure is half our GDP.
The interest payments on this borrowed money increases our current spending and adds massively to our budget deficit every year.

Do you understand or am I wasting my time?

Hellogoogle, bench marking gave percentage pay increases , greater percentages to those at the top,
If you want pay reductions , let those at the top take a bigger percentage decrease

@Shay, of course I agree.

@Coddler

I wont argue exact figures with you, mine were drawn from the Colm McCarthy report, a few years old but things have not changed much.
Now here is the facts

1. We are making repayment with borrowed money, we have to borrow from an emergency bailout to make those payments. What this means is it is a slight of hand, we are not in fact repaying anything from our own money.
This is very important, it means our debt is increasing, simple right…..now follow me here
2. If you subtract the amount we pay in repayments from our deficit, you will see it is still enormous, 10-15bn at the minimum. Now before we can make any repayments, we need to have some surplus.
3. It is impossible to continue to borrow at the rates we are now, the only way we can is due to an emergency bailout.
4. Bank bailout repayment make up only a tiny part of out deficit, about 1/6.
5. Before we can become a functional country again and borrow like a responsible country we need to balance our books, at least to a managable level
6. We collect approx 30bn in taxes, we spend approx 50bn on just running the country without bailout repayment or banks etc.

Consider these facts rationally, then explain to me how you can justify maintaining public spending the same and at the inflated levels reached through benchmarking and staff levels inflated through transparant electioneering and cozy union deals during the boom?

All you responses indicate you are in denial, and hope to use the Banks as a smokescreen to hide all the other problems that are a legacy from the bloom, and our irresponsible government and greedy unions.

Your response that we should just continue to borrow at these rates not make any cuts and that this is normal practice for any country is ridiculous.

Hello, nurses are needed, in the private sector rates are being maintained, nursing homes are paying the rate, the argument about having a permanent job is ridiculous , when your needed on private or public service, your job is going to stay,
The public service has to pay the rates or loose the people they need , frontline is frontline , rates are payed because that’s what the market has decided, wish people would wake up and smell the coffee

We all know that. Which makes the cut even more stupid. If they just employed nurses and midwives directly instead of paying agency they would save MORE money than this pay cut scheme.

Google,

You need to get over the fixation on the budget deficit and look at the whole picture. The deficit is one part of the Ireland’s economic problems but it is not the most critical component. The key driver of our economic collapse is the loading of massive private banking debt on to shoulders of the Irish people. This is not a ‘smokescreen’.

You’ve changed your initial position and now accept that that the bank debt repayments do actually contribute to our budget deficit. That’s some progress at least. You say the bank debt accounts for 1/6th of the deficit. The true figure is much higher and closer to half. Even your ‘tiny’ fraction of 1/6 equates to between €2 and €3 billion annually which is an enormous sum of money. The property tax for example is only going to generate €500 million (assuming it can be forced through) while causing serious hardship to tens of thousands of Irish families.

Here are some counter facts:
1. We were running a budget surplus prior to bailing out the banks. The inflated and unsustainable property bubble accounted for a lot of the surplus but not all.
2. The reason we are in an emergency ‘bailout’ is because we issued a blanket guarantee on all banking debt. We are locked out of the sovereign debt markets because we bailed out the banks. This bank guarantee was extended in 2010 under duress from the ECB.
3. The Troika is not bailing us out. It is lending us money with interest so that we can prop up our own insolvent banks (as well as cover the budget deficit). This in turn prevents the losses of the European banks being realised and places them instead on the shoulders of the Irish people as private banking debt is converted into sovereign debt.
4. The Troika places onerous conditions on the money it lends us unlike the money markets. For example, they are insisting on the sale of state assets and infrastructure which will severely damage our growth prospects for the future. Look at the debacle which was the privatisation of Eircom for a case study.

I did not try to justify ‘maintaining public spending at levels inflated through transparent electioneering and cosy union deals’ as you claim. Our public sector badly needs reform, most especially at the upper echelons where pay, perks and pensions are grossly inflated. The cutbacks need to start at the top and work down. It certainly should not start at the very modestly paid graduate nurses who do a tough job in difficult conditions and are a key component in our Health service.

One last thing. It is economic suicide to try and balance the national books and eliminate the budget deficit in the teeth a recession. This is fundamental macro economics. The state is very different to a business or a household where it makes perfect sense to do as you advise and match income and expenditure. Micro economic principles do not work at the macro level.

The antidote to this recession is for the government to undertake a massive stimulus program involving large infrastructural projects such as power station construction, alternative energy installations, upgrading the water supply and broadband networks etc and also kick starting local industry with investment in initiatives like upgrading the fishing fleet or restarting the sugar plants in Carlow and Mallow and so on. The opportunities are enormous.
Where will we get the money for this expansion?
Well for a start, there is €3.1 billion promissory note about to be flushed down the toilet in March. Let’s not pay that odious debt and instead use the money to invest in Ireland and it’s people.

Shay

The surplus during the “boom” was due to the construction boom and property bubble, and irresponsible spending based on irresponsible lending, and keeping up with the Jones.

We now have to face reality, which is we spend too much, 60% more than we generate in tax.
It is very simple, we need to stop spending at the crazy levels from the Bertie corrupt days.

You are applying economic theories that cannot apply to a small open economy like ours and are / were tailored to large internal markets and superpowers from the last world war and depression, hopelessly outdated and without comparison.

We cannot have a huge stimulus, we are bankrupt and completely broke. I repeat remove all Bank debt, all bank repayments and we are completely broke completely bankrupt, and would be refused funding from every market on the planet. This is reality Shay…..

You are deluding yourself about the banks and the bank debt. The bailout is as much to pay our day to day spending as anything else, without it would would not be able to pay nurses gardai etc.

Simple as this, once again i will repeat.

Remove all Bank repayment, remove all promissory notes, forget the non sovereign banking debt.
What is left is still a country that cannot fund itself without an emergency bailout, completely destroyed by irresponsible government, irresponsible lending, irresponsible borrowing by individuals, irresponsible regulation, greedy unions, overstaffed cozy and overpaid public sectors.

The IMF would have to rescue us……I know it makes you feel good to think it all the ECB and banking bailouts and we are fine otherwise, and we didnt do anything wrong, and we are just poor victims, and we should just have a stimulus and refuse to pay back money we borrowed. But that is dreamland.
Consequences of that would be economic suicide

I can agree with you that we have bloated overpaid public sector and reform is needed, and it should be progressive and fair, targeting the higher levels first and more.

Doogle,

As you can’t even tell who you’re responding to, you’ll forgive me if I don’t agree with your juvenile grasp of the economic situation.

Apologies Coddler,
I may not agree with you but you are entitled to you opinions, all the facts are freely available. Simply read the Colm McCarthy Report to add to your understanding of the big picture.

Your views about blaming banks are true to a small extent, they were bastards and contributed to the shit, but to remove all other factors and ignore the basics indicate denial.

I truly wish it was all as simplistic as you think.

Google,

As you seem to be such a big admirer of Colm McCarthy, you do know that he is proposing that Ireland take legal action against the ECB for coercing the government into the repayment of private banking debt in the bondholder bailout?

As the man himself said:

‘The incentive for Ireland to challenge the legality of the ECB’s actions in the autumn of 2010 is clear: enormous costs, running to tens of billions, have been arbitrarily added to the Irish debt burden’

So Colm seems to understand the significance of the bank bailout on Ireland’s economic collapse but a ‘big picture’ chap like yourself seems to miss the point completely.
Hmmm.

The banking debt should not be paid by us the Irish people, that was always wrong.
However it is not being paid, it is part of our debt and we are borrowing even to make repayments. It is on the long finger and will have to be sorted out at some stage.

Personally I believe “big picture” that Europe will write off the banking component of the debt as soon as we demonstrate we can run the country responsibly, that won’t happen until we get our deficit to manageable levels, and stop the crazy overspending.

Europe cannot write it off until then, without rewarding stupid irresponsibility. It will In all of Europe interest not to have a country crippled by debt.

But never forget, we are paying a penny back at the moment, and have not paid a penny, we are borrowing to cover current spending and repayments….it is accounting, borrowing to give back.

Consider what I have said and you will see it is a much bigger picture.

Google,

We have been, we currently are and we will be paying of the banking debt for decades unless we repudiate that illegitimate burden.
I have already explained how €20 billion was stolen from the National Pension Reserve Fund and used to directly recapitalise the banks. This money was not borrowed. It was ours. In addition to losing the €20 billion capital amount, we have also lost all future yields that money would have generated in investments.
The Irish state has borrowed €68 billion from the Troika. €34 billion of this was used to fund the bank bailout directly. This is not a good thing. That is how banking debt is turned into sovereign debt. They are not giving us this money for free. It incurs interest charges which must be paid every year. These debt servicing charges are being paid now and are not on the ‘long finger’. We pay for them through the increased taxes and cutbacks in our public services every year since the crisis began.

The promissory notes are another mechanism through which we are being forced to pay the banking debt. . This is €3.1 billion plus interest to be paid annually until 2023 with lesser amounts up to 2029. We’ve already paid 3 instalments so that’s another €10 billion or so.

I accept that there is waste in the public service and that reform is necessary. However there is an immense difference between money spent on the banks and money spent on our public services. We get virtually nothing for the money we pump into the parasitic banks and it’slikely gone forever. We get huge tangible benefit from the money spent on the public services such as schools, hospitals, Gardai, social welfare payments, roads, water etc , the list is endless. In addition, most of the salaries of the public sector employees is spent in the local economy so it benefits us all.
Money borrowed to fund the banks is a criminal waste. Money borrowed to fund our public sector is not.

You have a very trusting nature if you believe that Europe will write off the banking debts. All the evidence so far points to the complete opposite. You may see us as bold schoolchildren who must demonstrate to Europe that ‘we can run the country responsibly’. I don’t . We are a democratic Republic in charge of our own affairs. Our governments surrendered our economic sovereignty when they signed and continued to honour the blanket ban guarantee.
If we unilaterally decided to repudiate the illegitimate banking debt, it is highly unlikely that the Troika would immediately withdraw all finance to Ireland. The reason is that it could easily precipitate the collapse of the Euro with a domino effect of large sovereign debt yield increases rippling through Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy and possibly France effectively locking those nations out of the global markets also. It’s primarily self interest that is driving the ECB/EUto finance Ireland in the first place rather than any sense of solidarity.

The ECB exceeded its authority in coercing the Irish government into the repayment of private banking debt in the bondholder bailout. As the 2 year blanket bank guarantee was close to expiring during the summer of 2010, the ECB forced the Irish government into full repayment of all bank bondholders from senior secured right down to junior unsecured under threat of withdrawal of liquidity funding from the Irish banks.
The ECB exceeded its mandate in this and a legal case needs to be taken to the European Court of Justice in relation to this blackmail of a sovereign state.
Payment of all outstanding banking debt including the promissory notes should be withheld pending the verdict of the ECJ. This will go a long way to closing our budget deficit while minimising austerity for the Irish people.

Google,

We have been, we currently are and we will be paying of the banking debt for decades unless we repudiate that illegitimate burden.
I have already explained how €20 billion was stolen from the National Pension Reserve Fund and used to directly recapitalise the banks. This money was not borrowed. It was ours. In addition to losing the €20 billion capital amount, we have also lost all future yields that money would have generated in investments.
The Irish state has borrowed €68 billion from the Troika. €34 billion of this was used to fund the bank bailout directly. This is not a good thing. That is how banking debt is turned into sovereign debt. They are not giving us this money for free. It incurs interest charges which must be paid every year. These debt servicing charges are being paid now and are not on the ‘long finger’. We pay for them through the increased taxes and cutbacks in our public services every year since the crisis began.
The promissory notes are another mechanism through which we are being forced to pay the banking debt. . This is €3.1 billion plus interest to be paid annually until 2023 with lesser amounts up to 2029. We’ve already paid 3 instalments so that’s another €10 billion or so.

I accept that there is waste in the public service and that reform is necessary. However there is an immense difference between money spent on the banks and money spent on our public services. We get virtually nothing for the money we pump into the parasitic banks and it’s likely gone forever. We get huge tangible benefit from the money spent on the public services such as schools, hospitals, Gardai, social welfare payments, roads, water etc , the list is endless. In addition, most of the salaries of the public sector employees is spent in the local economy so it benefits us all.
Money borrowed to fund the banks is a criminal waste. Money borrowed to fund our public sector is not.
You have a very trusting nature if you believe that Europe will write off the banking debts. All the evidence so far points to the complete opposite. You may see us as bold schoolchildren who must demonstrate to Europe that ‘we can run the country responsibly’. I don’t . We are a democratic Republic in charge of our own affairs. Our governments surrendered our economic sovereignty when they signed and continued to honour the blanket ban guarantee.
If we unilaterally decided to repudiate the illegitimate banking debt, it is highly unlikely that the Troika would immediately withdraw all finance to Ireland. The reason is that it could easily precipitate the collapse of the Euro with a domino effect of large sovereign debt yield increases rippling through Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy and possibly France effectively locking those nations out of the global markets also. It’s primarily self interest that is driving the ECB/EUto finance Ireland in the first place rather than any sense of solidarity.
The ECB exceeded its authority in coercing the Irish government into the repayment of private banking debt in the bondholder bailout. As the 2 year blanket bank guarantee was close to expiring during the summer of 2010, the ECB forced the Irish government into full repayment of all bank bondholders from senior secured right down to junior unsecured under threat of withdrawal of liquidity funding from the Irish banks.
The ECB exceeded its mandate in this and a legal case needs to be taken to the European Court of Justice in relation to this blackmail of a sovereign state.
Payment of all outstanding banking debt including the promissory notes should be withheld pending the verdict of the ECJ. This will go a long way to closing our budget deficit while minimising austerity for the Irish people.

Your fighting a loosing battle with these guys Mar they have no clue.

It’s their own choice . Or is it ?

good points but………you look like a seventies black guy…….just sayin’

Eighths , I agreed with your view at first, that the union (INMO)sold them down the river,
Now not so sure now, these jobs weren’t filled, existing conditions continue, and these position are filled by agency which costs more at present, either offer exciting contracts or negotiate a fairer deal

Rebecca , agency should only be a stop gab and not as it is at present( because of the embargo) used to fill real positions that should be filled, you are right agency will always have a role

I was talking about the public sector as a whole and the pay costs involved, then I was stating that the entry level front line staff are not the problem in that respect.
That said, the current contracts do form part of the problem, I.e. The nurse starting at 22k with the increments included and pension allowances etc, and rights to early retirement, and job for life irrespective of performance, not able to be let go as finances require. Are all part of the problem.

But I want to make this very clear, the entry level pay grades and industrial level salaries are not the problem, it is the higher grades / early retirement / increments / allowances / benchmarked pensions / productivity / administration roles / bloating / admin overstaffing / jobs for life ……….

@ google
The jobs are fixed term ie not permanent pensionable posts, at the end of the contract it will most likely be good luck and thanks and welcome the new batch.

@Cliodhna

I was referring to the official 22k “proper” contracts, not the current “intern” roles.

I made that clear in the post.

Google
They are one and the same, the €22k jobs are contract for two years not permanent or pensionable. Also anyone made permanent after 2004 is not eligible for early retirement and we contribute to our pension so please stop blaming us. I have worked hard and studied hard to get what I get I hold a triple qualification as do many of my colleagues and any courses I’ve done I’ve paid for taken salary cuts during so please cut us some slack we are not the enemy.

Cliodhna Im not your enemy, and don’t consider you mine.

There is no enemy, there are just the current economic realities, and we are all in the same boat.

The private sector pays for the public sector, the public sector absolutely needs the private, and the private also absolutely needs the public.

However they need to be in balance, the collected private taxes are all we have to use for pay, the country cannot afford the current wage bill. There is without question massive waste, that has been highlighted. Also we need a mechanism to reduce the bill if there is a massive contraction of private sector taxes……otherwise the country goes bankrupt

I too hold a lot of qualification (4) 2 x hons degree + masters, 9yrs study, but I am not entitled to a living, and must accept the realities of the market and economics. If tomorrow I lost my job or it wasn’t paying for itself Im out of a job. How else could a society / economy work in the real world?

I am only trying to broaden the picture so people consider more, and introduce common sense to balance people outrage.

I really hope we all exit this as soon as possible, and value everyone in this society and their futures and livelihoods equally.
Considering the big picture what conclusions do you come too?

I really don’t know anymore!! I see the merit in wage cuts but I couldn’t sustain my life if my salary was cut anymore. But I do think a lot of the private sector blame us for what’s going on they forget though that we pay tax ect as well and many of them wouldn’t do our jobs for all the tea in china!!

Yes the situation is bad.

Lots of people however don’t have the protection of “job for life” contracts, and increments, and Croke park deals. Or the luxury of turning down jobs, the reality for most is losing there jobs or voluntarily and communally accepting pay reductions to sustain employed numbers.

They cannot accept pay reductions but there is no choice, they also face huge tax increases to pay for “protected” public sector jobs.

RE: Tax. Private sector pay taxes, this is collected and used to pay public salaries. The “tax” paid by public workers is returning tax already collected from the private sector and does not add to the tax take at all. (think about it, they are paid with taxes) Only a double accounting measure giving the impression of paying tax, it would be cheaper to pay net of tax, less admin.

This is why it is tough to accept some of the outrage etc, it seems people don’t see the whole picture and only concerned with themselves.
There are loads of people in desperate situations who would grab those jobs eagerly, the luxury of picking and chosing employment is very hard to find these days, outside of very specific and rapidly outdated IT specialities.

Google
I agree with you there are many nurses who will take these jobs. When I qualified in 93 I got six months work here on nights shifted from ward to ward I moved to the UK came back to do a post grad course and then in 97 when there was a desperate shortage of nurses I got my permanent contract. I have not stopped studying since 1990 when I started nursing I have three qualifications an honors degree and a masters that’s just the tip of what I’ve done. I get recognition for one of my post grad qualifications I could have sat on my ass and I still be earning only €50 less than what I earn now a month and I wouldn’t be down thousands I’ve paid for courses now you tell me am I worth my €22.36 an hour??
I pay my tax and I’ve taken the cuts like everyone else.

I genuinely wish you all the best Cliodhna, we are now living through what might turn out to be a global historical event, a depression and financial depression that will be taught to kids as a warning for generation to come.

Of course you are worth what you are paid, and there are loads of people worth the same at home with no jobs at all. Will qualifications and years of experience and training. It is cruel and ruthless in a market economy, is it fair no, is it ideal no, is there an alternative no.

I don’t know where all this will end, but before some growth can occur and escape from this mess spending will have to be tackled, I cannot see much more room for Taxation to increase. Unless of course the crazy low corporation tax….but that opens a new can of worms.

Cliod, we can all see the merit in pay cuts but not the same percentage for all, top guys have to take a greater percentage, and people not needed must move on, stream lining the service offered without removing the services the public need from us

I didn’t suggest the pay cuts Shay hello google did I just said I could see the merit. But they can’t keep cutting our salaries it has to come from the top.

Clion, I used merit as well

Does the error in calculation alter Patrick Nulty’s overall point in anyway?

It actually works out a roughly 21% using his inaccurate VAT rate and at over 22% if you use the actual VAT rate so no, I don’t think it does really.

But they are fully competent that’s the issue they have the same responsibility to their patients as I have and I’m qualified 20 years.

Aisling you probably work in the private sector like myself which makes the entire public sector ethos virtually incomprehensible to us! I trained in a role where I started out earning very little (less than the 22k) as is common practice in may professions having already spent 3 years in college!

Yes they need to gain experience. But in Ireland..when they qualify.. they are actually hired prior to receiving registration.. where they work as a staff nurse but ‘supernumery’ – which means.. they work as a nurse.. with their own patients.. but when they need to give medication.. they get a senior nurse to check it with them co-sign it. Then off they go. When they get their registration..after 2/3 weeks that’s it. They are responsible for their own patients. Sometimes the whole ward. Unlike other college courses. Nurses werent able to hold down a part-time job when they were training.. because they were working weekends in hospital. So yes they do deserve full pay.

Aisling what field do you work in?

You should a very small understanding of the actual work that a fully qualified nurse does. It is not comparable to the vast majority of graduate positions in engineering/business/accounting

Fair enough Ted pay them at the €22,000 like you were but then explain to the patients why their walking out the door when their shift finishes instead of holding a dying patients hand when their family can’t be bothered or delivering a mothers baby.

@Cliodhna

If I follow your logic the nurses are only doing the compassionate aspects of their job as a pure mercenary monitory transaction. I.e. walking out the door of dying people. If this is the case I would suggest they chose the wrong career, and we are better of without them.

I am certain most nurses appreciate the difficulties as well as the rewards of such work, and do so with a sense of humanity and out of decent human respect and with a sense of how they would like their own loved ones treated.

Your comment is typical of extreme rhetoric and make for depressing reading, the reality is lots of people do what they have to do, and carry out very difficult jobs without the personal rewards that come from caring for people.

Everyone can exaggerate their jobs and make them critical to the functioning of society as a whole and therefore make themselves priceless, from teachers to gardai, to nurses, to hauliers, to IT professionals, to Bankers, to politicians, to shopkeepers and green grocers.

But this achieves nothing

It takes years to turn an engineering graduate into an engineer. It takes years to turn a computer science graduate into a competent programmer or analyst. For these courses the 4 years in college provides only the basics to do the job. For this reason graduates always get paid less than experienced counterparts in the fields of engineering and science.

Nurses undergo a different type of training. In addition to academic studies they complete hospital hours. So the question is:
Does this extra – on the job – training mean they 100% competent in being a nurse following graduation?

Personally I don’t think it does. I’d say they are closer to competency than a graduate engineer, but not 100%. And therefore I think its acceptable that graduate nurses earn lower pay than experienced counterparts.

Aisling,
In nursing when you finish college you already have 9months working full time on the ward in 4th year (not to mention the other 3years placement).
In the UK they only do a 3year course. When they qualify they’re heavily mentored.
So when we graduate we are expected to be competent and handle our own caseload. As a registered nurse. Just like a physio/doctor/dietician/OT and all other health professionals.
I wonder had they been in the line for a at cut would people see a boycott as unreasonable?

That wasn’t my point at all the point was that we are not like other professions who can walk off the floor when our shifts finish. And yes nursing care is about that extra ten minutes with a dying patient or staying on to deliver a baby for a woman you’ve spent all day/night with because it doesn’t happen by the time your shift is over.
It might be extreme but read the other posts first I’m nursing 23 years on the first of February and I can count on one hand the amount of times I have gotten off work on time. I do not get overtime nor do we get time back so if I’m offending your sensibilities by ranting Google I apologise.

@ Bandear they do earn less when they start as previously stated we are paid incrementally. They are competent and work within a scope of practice otherwise are struck off the register. They may not be experts but they most certainly are competent.

That is fair enough Cliodhna

Could I suggest then nurses at higher increments / with early retirement taking reductions to pay for the nurses entering. This would achieve the savings and also show support from within the nursing profession for the entrants.

As we all know the benchmarking process increased public sector pay to balance with private sector growth, now that the private sector has collapsed and shrinking, the benchmarking should take place in reverse.

Oh come on 22k i ridiculous for someone who is qualified for their job. Especially nursing,,a job alot of us wouldn’t do. I was on more then 22k and that was in a job that required no college qualifications. I left because the job and the money sucked

You can suggest it but a better suggestion would be cut the salaries of the people who got the country into this mess.

@Cliodhna

That is a very narrow view, and does not make sense, you are ignoring billions of elephants in the room.

A very large part of the “mess” is the bloating of the public sector, look at the record, look at the massive increase in numbers (x2), Ahern way of buying votes. Look at the benchmarking again for votes and the greed of unions, then look at the doubling of the public sector pay bill. All the figures are available.

The mess is not only the collapse of property prices and subsequent fall in taxes (the combination of irresponsible government, irresponsible lending, irresponsible borrowing, and individual greed as well as corporate and state), but is also the massive irresponsible overspending legacy of the government based on that revenue.

A quick read of the Colm McCarthy report explains it all if you are interested, people need to get a view of the bigger picture.

I can understand why Australia decided to abandon the Academic Nursing degree in favour of the old style Nurse Training. These folks think their God’s gift to medicine from the moment get go.

Actually Mark I trained the old way but you think I’m a danger to my patients because I argued with you. For what it’s worth the sooner we go back to the old style of training the better.

Bander, this isn’t a new starting rate that they were offered, the were offered a two year contract on a set rate , then goodbye no matter how good they were
If they went on the existing contract after their two years ( assuming no issues with competency ) your point may be valid but that isn’t the case

Everyone of us are going to get sick or have someone close to us get sick at some point let it be acute or not. When that happens then nurses will be/are acknowledged. Unfortunately not everyone can see their importance without illness. A graduate nurse is expected to do the same work as a senior nurse. They learn from seniors but ultimately the responsibility falls on them. Take now January for instance the rostered students are out on their internship. 4students replace 2 qualified nurses. If u have two bays a qualified nurse be it graduate or senior one nurse will go into each bay with a 4th yr. So not only will that graduate nurse have the responsibility of her patients but also teaching her student. It may not sound right but that’s the system. At the peak of the pay scale after 9 years these graduate nurses Will be on approx30,000 a year before tax this will be a senior nurses wages!! Go into any busy hospital observe What nurses do and tell me they are not worth it don’t wait for someone you love or even yourself to get sick before you realise this. Mark I genuinely hope your health stays with you. Your comments are insulting and unfortunately it is people who have those opinions that will see first hand for themselves how valuable a nurse is. We need to look after the people who are important in the workplace not turn on each other. It is not u or I who got us into this mess yet those people in majority are still living it up, while graduates are being hit. It is not right after 4yrs studying to get less money then HCAs, porters, cleaners, catering.

Actually when a nurse registers with on bord altranais she/he is FULLY COMPETENT to care for patients just like any other registered nurse!!! One day registered or 40 years registered we are competent practitioners if not we are struck off the register of nurses/midwives.

If we are not competent we are struck off is what I meant to say there. And also a nurse’s wages are paid on an incremental level we are not the same as consultant’s all starting on the same level get your facts straight.

Oops I hope I’m not under that type of care when dangerously ill.

That is a very narrow view, and does not make sense, you are ignoring billions of elephants in the room.

A very large part of the “mess” is the bloating of the public sector, look at the record, look at the massive increase in numbers (x2), Ahern way of buying votes. Look at the benchmarking again for votes and the greed of unions, then look at the doubling of the public sector pay bill. All the figures are available.

The mess is not only the collapse of property prices and subsequent fall in taxes (the combination of irresponsible government, irresponsible lending, irresponsible borrowing, and individual greed as well as corporate and state), but is also the massive irresponsible overspending legacy of the government based on that revenue.

A quick read of the Colm McCarthy report explains it all if you are interested, people need to get a view of the bigger picture.

Would you not like expert care when sick then Mark??

How exactly are we not competent in your opinion Mark? We have a 4 year degree in nursing and have 100% responsibility for patients in our care once we qualify! We carry out the same tasks as our colleagues that have been nursing for years and don’t receive any mentorship once we have received our registration, unlike our UK counterparts who are heavily mentored upon qualifying!! We are 100% competent, we wouldn’t have been granted our registration otherwise!!

Patrice

Are you required to take mentorship if you apply in the UK?

Is it possible that mentorship should be applied here too, and the problem is with the system. Possibly due to the nurses unions refusing to mentor or demanding extra payments to do it, very likely here.

Cliodhna
A nurse on a ward a week after her degree is awarded cannot be compared to someone with a further two or three years clinical experience and if you want to make that assertion then you’re denying reality and dangerous in your view from a patient’s perspective.

I never said that Mark I said they were competent practitioners who work within their scope of practice. I on the other had am an expert practitioner in my field but I too work within my scope of practice I would never put any of my patients in danger. I suggest you re read my post.

Google
Mentoring in the UK/NZ/OZ is routine no matter how experienced you are it’s an excellent system, it’s very structured for new grads and is basically like a buddy system for experienced new employee’s. It doesn’t come with any extra remuneration in fact when I worked in NZ it was considered an honor to be asked to do it. It works well here as well in areas such as theatre icu not overally familiar with the ward setting if it applies, I moved jobs/hospitals recently and I notice it is very much in play in an unstructured way where I work now.
I believe it should be in place here.

Poor mark, forgets that nurses are needed, if the price of the nurse is too much and you can’t afford them , do without, that is the private sector way,

Proof that cost are kept down by having a public sector can be seen by looking at the cost of nursing on America , you are getting value for money , again you need nurses, they ain’t going to work for free

Actually Mark you’re wrong. England is offering full time permanent contracts to 2012 graduates starting at €30,000 per year. This is not ‘slightly more’ than the 80% wages we are being offered here in Ireland when we qualify. I am a fourth year intern nurse. I have completed all my studies and exams in college. I am presently working my 36 week placement in a hospital in Dublin. Before tax, I will earn €6.95 an hour for working independently as an intern. We have to have medications co-signed and checked, all nursing documentation co-signed and any IV medication is drawn up and administered by the nurse as it is not within our scope of practise do do that until we are qualified and have received the necessary training to do so. If I was to go for this deal for the €22,000 per year, I would be placed anywhere in Ireland, I would work like a bank nurse, rotated around the hospital on a daily basis based on what wards are short staffed. After the two years are up, thats it. We will not be offered permanent jobs no matter how well we worked. According to James Reilly our only other option is to emigrate or work in a fast food outlet. I would gladly do this. The work we do on a daily basis combined with the stress of caring for patients ensuring that they are ok is worth more than 22,000 a year. When we qualify we are fully compentent and answerable for all our nursing care. It is a hard job to do, people do not realise how hard, but seeing patients well makes it worthwhile. :)

WRONG WRONG WRONG!

Irish nurses and Midwives do four years so that in their final year they are interns, doing all the work but supervised so unlike UK nurses and midwives they are ready to hit the ground running when qualified. Therefore more qualified than UK when qualified and hence huge demand for irish nurses and midwives in uk. Very few hours in college on final year I assure you, constant ward work.

If they don’t apply for the job and get a job offer how can it be considered that they refused the job?

Apparently not I know of two nurse who can not claim the dole are dependant on agency shifts and will not even qualify to apply for these jobs as they qualified too early.

I suspect if they are on the Dole and refuse a job offer then the Dole is stopped, it is now job seekers allowance, and people who turn down work no longer qualify.

You may be correct

When all taxes, USC, pension are taking from the new salary €21,679, it comes to €350 a week, €8.70 an hour plus when the 2 year contract is over your sent to the dole office, new grads will only be offered as your replacement and then after 2 years their laid off and on it goes. How on earth would they get a mortgage on this salary? There’s no way they would be giving one, too much of a liability. Plus nursing attracts mature students who already have a boom level mortgage and children so how would they survive on this?

Mature students may have no choice but to accept these posts . Know one who is taking post if gets it .

And can you blame them if they have families ect.

Hello, your a funny guy, foreign nurses came here because pay used to be very good , prior to recent pay cuts, best of luck getting them to come here now, exciting foreign nurses without kids are leaving, Canada and Australia being favourite destinations.
If you want private sector conditions then you will have to pay more,as the nurse remains scarce in many western countries

Ok so i’m sure Australia and canada can absorb all the nurses from all over the world.
No nurses from anywhere else will want to work here, because the only factor they consider in pay, they have no interest in learning english or visiting ireland.

Why don’t we wait and see, who knows maybe there isnt a paradice of endless jobs abroad, and some of our own nurses might come back.

Hello , they will come back and work in the private sector, where there value is recognised, I believe Indian and African and phillopino nurses won’t come here now, there are enough of them spreading the news that Ireland doesn’t offer the future they hopped for , maybe other countries but I don’t think so

Shay,

In the real world there are very few private sector positions available, and they are contracting.

We have people dropping private insurance in drives, and stated government policy to introduce public health insurance, which will scrap it altogether.

This will create a system where hospitals compete for patients as the money will follow the patients. And under that system yes the pay may well be determined by market forces. As it stands it is not, and is negotiated by unions. That is my hope and should work best for patients and nurses.

There are not as many jobs as you seem to dream there is, and there will be a contraction into the future.

Hospitals will be forced to be more efficient and better run, or else go out of business.

I am all for nurses getting well paid for their good work, but in a transparent and well run, market driven, real world situation not under constant union threat and extreme rhetoric.

Fingers crossed we get there at a faster pace than the moment.

Public health insurance, don’t you believe it,
The idea of it is great, but reilly won’t deliver it,
The Dutch have found costs for the individual increasing, the service may be better , especially primary care, but is it cheaper, certainly it’s person focused, I’m just not sure there would be enough competition between insurers to keep costs down

Emmet we have no problem paying extra taxes at a fair rate however they keep lumping all public sector workers into the one pot. Its like a big game to have public v private against each other that way they can ride everybody however if you look at your essential frontline services which ones wud you be able to live without??? I know most people very rarely need a nurse, gard or paramedic but by god when they do these people step up and are worth every penny. How much tax are u actually paying for your socially provided front line services? And how much are you paying to groups of billionaire bond holders not even linked to this country??

That’s a facetious argument and you know it is – front line services do not disappear in any society. You say that you are happy to pay extra taxes “at a fair rate” but then imply that the majority of your taxes are going to “billionaire bond holders” which – true or otherwise – does not make it sound as though you want extra deductions from your salary, and why would you?

This entire nursing situation is unfortunate and for the responsibilies and expertise the role carries it should have a better graduate salary but basic economics dictates that when your employer is broke it will not be able to new employees on the same scale as it had previously. Don’t forget are far plenty of graduates out there in different fields who have no choice but to do lengthy unpaid interships or work two jobs to get a foot in the door of their industry and they would bite your hand off to be offered a two-year full time contract.