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Dublin: 11 °C Wednesday 22 May, 2013

Column: We just can’t afford it any more – the case against Croke Park

Public sector workers have seen their average wages rise while others fall – and this can’t continue, writes Keith Redmond.

Keith Redmond

With debate continuing over the future of the Croke Park Agreement, TheJournal.ie presents the argument from both points of view. To read the other side, click here.

WHEN JIM LARKIN founded the Trade Union Movement in Ireland in 1909 the plight of workers was amongst the worst in the industrial world. There was no employment legislation, job or wage security or even the most basic of social welfare benefits. Their battle cry was equality, fairness and solidarity. It is to the great credit of the trade union movement that we are now, one hundred years later, a world away from those terrible times for workers. Well, for some workers.

When you imagine a trade union worker, are you visualising a poorly educated, low paid and vulnerable young strafe facing the might of a rich, cigar chomping, fat-cat boss? Well, you might be interested to know that the CSO says today’s trade union members are more likely to be over 45 with third-level qualifications, working in semi-professional occupations and earning an average of €900 per week. And their rich, cigar chomping, fat cat boss? Well, that’s you silly, the private sector taxpayer. By way of comparison, the private sector taxpayer earns an average of €600 per week. I think even Jim Larkin would be scratching his head at that turn of events.

The Croke Park Agreement (CPA) was established in 2010 to protect the pay of PS workers and forbid redundancies in the Public Sector. It followed a 7.5 per cent pay cut in the Budget of 2009. It was the first pay cut in the history of the State for PS workers. It’s interesting to note however, that the annual automatic payrises, or increments, that PS workers get has meant that from 2007-2011 their wage has actually gone up by one per cent while private sector workers have seen a drop of 19 per cent in the same period. And don’t get me started on the 800 allowances that you fat cats pay to PS workers. You’ll note that Minister Brendan Howlin has recently rolled back on his commitment to tackle those.

Workers on the dole

There have been no compulsory redundancies amongst permanent staff in the public sector although some short term contracted staff were not renewed. Meanwhile there are now 500,000 private sector workers on the dole.

The defenders of the CPA will say it has prevented strikes, produced co-operation and savings. I could deride and contest those arguments but that would be to miss the point. The point is, so what? The taxpayer still can’t afford the post-CPA cost of the public sector. All the fat has been trimmed from the non-wage budget. Next, we either have to close vital frontline services or trim our wage bill, it’s that simple.

The isn’t about ‘public sector bashing’, because they aren’t being bashed. The private sector worker alone is being bashed by the great recession, with wage cuts, job losses and diminishing benefits. The fact is that the CPA has disproportionately and unfairly protected a privileged class of worker at the expense of the vast majority of the others.

With this glaring inequality and unfairness, one has to ask where did the battle cry of the Trade Union movement to equality, fairness and solidarity go? If they continue to demand that the rest of us carry them through the recession, they run a dangerous course. As a great man once said:

You may succeed in your policy but ensure your own damnation by your victory.

- James Larkin

Keith Redmond is a Dentist in Sutton, Dublin, a small business owner and a presenter on NearFM. He can be found on Twitter @DrKeithRedmond

Column: Slashing wages will hurt everybody – the case for Croke Park>

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Comments (136 Comments)

  • I am a public servant who also has a problem with croke park…. the pay question should not be dealt with in a blanket fashion and the work analysed to see what it is worth…. e.g. a clerical officer, the now lowest grade in the service (basic admin) has a finishing basic salary of 38,000 pa…. that’s for working 34 1/4 hours a week… the garda, nurse and fireman have finishing basic salaries of approximately 44,000… this is for a 41 hour week… that gives a basic admin worker the same hourly rate as a nurse garda or firemen..

    I know the latter 3 get allowances but these are for working unsocial hours etc…it is not 9 to 5 work like the admin end of things.. the premium rate on these allowances is approx 17% versus an average of 22% in the private sector for similar shift patterns …

    during bench marking gardai and firemen got 5%, nurses 6% and management grades 11% and upwards… yet there have been pay cuts totalling 14/15% for workers who only got 5% from benchmarking.

    the basic admin work performed by the civil and public service would only fetch 25,000 in the private sector… however nurses in the private sector average 5% more
    for instance…

    overstaffing is also rampant… the hse employs 1 staff member for every 30 people in this country yet there is 1 nurse for every 135 people.. go figure… admin I suppose….

    when looking at croke park the work versus the salary has to be assessed and the amount of staffing…

    I think a scalpel rather than a broadsword needs to be used do that a fairer agreement can be supported by all and end the feuding between private and public worker..

    Reply
    • Mick 15/09/12 #

      2 Big elephants in the room you forgot to mention, pension and job security…..

      Reply
    • You forget to mention that it takes the guts of 12 years for that CO to reach 38k which I believe is a wrong figure as it has been reduced. You also don’t realize that with recruitment embargo you could have a CO working for €24-25k doing the job of a higher grade person who earns 50-60k and not getting any credit or extra pay.

      Reply
    • well we need emergency services so yes those jobs will always be there…

      secondly superannuation, levy and too rate prsi add up to 19% and then there is the double payment of 6% USC…. once on salary and secondly on pension contribution mentioned above….

      so over 20% is contributed to pension….. by the way gardai have a formula that reads r+6 then d…(no equals symbol on HTC)… average life span after retirement is 6 years…. pension a little irrelevant so…

      Reply
    • David it takes gardai 21 years to reach 44k…. nurses and firemen similarly…

      Reply
  • I work in a Revenue call center am CO grade. Work a 37 hour wk for a weekly take home pay of €370. I hardly call that an inflated wage. I am sick to death of the constant PS bashing the perception that there is no such thing as a low paid public sector worker.
    I am a low paid public sector worker. I for one cannot take any more cuts it just would not justify the 28 miles I travel each way to work every day.

    Reply
    • I used to work as a CO. I used more skill driving to work than I did in the job. There is no skill or scarce value premium for being a CO

      Reply
    • @Paul Lanigan
      I’d love to know why you “used” to work as a CO? Surely you didn’t leave because of the low wages??? To say that COs do nothing suggests to me that with that mindset, the Public Service may have left you rather than the other way around…

      Reply
    • @Paul_Lanigan. Are you suggesting that Emma is being paid for nothing? Are you suggesting that COs don’t do any work and are just completely disposable? If that is what you are suggesting, what a piece of shit statement, and at the risk of having my comment deleted, what a bitter man you must be to think that. Your comment clearly says more about your work ethic than anything else. Maybe you should reflect on how hard you worked and the effort you put in as a CO if you used more skill driving to work.

      Reply
    • Wow! Did I hit a raw nerve or what!

      I left the Civil Service after 2 years because I couldn’t take the mind numbing repetitive, boring, soul destroying work (you know what I’m talking about). I worked in the Dept of Social Welfare (as it was at the time).

      As a CO I spent the whole day writing letters to people who were in receipt of disability benefit and believed to be in working. If someone was found to be in receipt while working then the case file went up the chain. First to SO, then EO and occasionally the HEO would put his pen down to review a case (when they weren’t responding to pointless PQ’s)

      @ Ruairi – I’m sure Emma is very busy. I’m also sure that you could take someone off the street and give them a few days orientation and they’d easily replace her. After all, when I got the job I had zero qualifications and I was given ‘on the job’ training (i.e. watch emma for a few days and then off you go)

      I’m not in the least bit bitter. Working in the Civil Service gave me the motivation to go back to college and get a proper job.

      I do get upset when people confuse incredibly valuable, highly skilled public servants like Guards, Teachers and Nurses with Admin staff. Even the senior admin staff like Patrick Neary (remember him!) are overpaid and unaccountable drains on the public purse.

      Reply
    • I think the point that Paul has hit upon is that if you don’t like it you get out. As far as I can see it boils down to this: If you work in the public sector and don’t like your job (assuming you’re not ‘too far’ from a major urban centre) you’re overpaid, otherwise you’d just go and get a better job somewhere else.

      Overpaid need not mean that you’re being paid a lot, most of the time it means that you are earning more than the market rate for the job you are doing.

      Reply
    • What planet do you live on Stephen O’Callaghan,
      cos it sure aint this one

      Reply
  • It shouldn’t be public sector vs private. It should be high earners vs low. Stop fighting amongst yourselves, its ridiculous. Doing the governments dirty work for them.

    Reply
  • This article is no more than a factually incorrect and poorly reasoned rant. The function of the CPA wasn’t to “protect the pay of PS workers and forbid redundancies”. That was merely the government’s side of the bargain. You could easily have found a full definition of its function here: http://per.gov.ie/croke-park-agreement/

    Public service workers do not all get an automatic pay rise annually. Different parts of the PS have different conditions. For example, a Garda’s increments are more spaced out than that and he gets the last one after about 15 years or so. Using the same example, for reasons of historical pay negotiations going back many years, a Garda’s wage is fragmented into a very modest wage plus a number of allowances. It may seem to you like these are undeserved and could just be removed at the stroke if a pen, however that would result in a massive and possibly unsustainable pay cut for families, many of whom struggle to pay their mortgages as it is.

    It doesnt necessarily follow that a higher average wage in the public than in the private sector automatically indicates overpayment in the former. Some jobs attract lower rates of pay than others. What if through creeping privatisation and other factors the state employs fewer lower paid professions? How many waiters does the state employ? And how many surgeons? Comparing average pay across two vast demographics is far too blunt an instrument to be useful, especially where the labour needs of the two employers being compared differ so much.

    Finally, this article might be more credible if it hadn’t been written by a member of a profession which indulges in such excessive profit-taking that people can actually travel to foreign countries to obtain identical treatment, and save themselves the price of a small car.

    Reply
  • I don,t know where these public sector workers are who’s wages have gone up, but I’ve lost around €500 per month in the last two years. I have to travel across the country to work as there is no work in my home town of Sligo due to cuts and so pay on top of this €450 to rent in Dublin as well as pay a mortgage in Sligo just for the privalige of being able to work, I would be better off on the dole, and I’m not alone, hundreds of nurses do the same…. But hey let’s carry on knocking the public sector frontline workers cos its the done thing to do these days. What should be recognised is the massive waste on other resources in the public sector not frontline workers pay!

    Reply
  • Bang on Carol. This is exactly what they want people to do. It’s Divide and Conquer and you are all falling for it…

    Reply
  • The Spin Doctor’s are weaving their magic again..Public vs Private..turn on the hate..keep them at each others throats meanwhile corporate and big business are rubbing their hands anticipating the backlash if the Public sector unions strike..Bust the Public Unions..kiss good bye to a decent Private sector wage!!

    Reply
  • 2% income tax rise
    5% pay cut
    7.5% pension levy
    @ 5% USC
    Prsi ceiling increase =
    Minimum 20% pay cut. I don’t know who is getting the pay rises in the public service, but it’s not this Front Line Worker.

    Reply
    • Now that’s the way to break it down…. Read and weep dentist

      Reply
    • It’s actually a 10% pay cut not a 5%. And let’s not forget the gob shites that earn over 100k a year only got a 3% pay cut plus their bonus. The lower paid should be protected.

      Reply
    • I’m a patient of my local Public Servants, and very grateful I am for them too. Over the years I have got to know many of them quite well, the consultants, the nurses, the porters and the cleaners in my local hospital. I’ve watched as the governments employment embargo began to hit and more and more agency and contract staff had to be hired, it emerged recently that this was a false economy, they cost something like 33% – 50% more than if they were employed by the HSE, but it sounded good for politicians to say there was an embargo. Meanwhile the agencies made hundreds of millions, the whole embargo fiasco cost more than it saved.
      High earning managers within the hospital would leave, only to return as “administrators”, walking around carring clipboards tring to look like they were needed or had something to do. Three of them who left at the beginning of the year were pointed out to me, part of the “clipboard army”, back again despite what the media says.
      It’s become obvious to all but the delusional that any significant hits to the Public Service will seriously hurt those at the bottom of the pile, the lower paid frontline workers. A few years ago, when these cuts began, one of the cleaners told me how a consultant said to him in conversation “you earn what €45k per year, it can’t be sustained”. He was so shocked he didn’t know what to say, that he actually earned about half that and this from a man on a salary of €200k aprox, not including a lucrative private practice. When there is a cut of even 5%, people on high salaries just make grim speeches about how we all have to feel the burden. Then they go back to planning their holiday. For those on a low pay cuts like that can have a devastating effect, bills may not get paid, heating, food, mortgages paid. They suffer. It’s all very well the government saying that everyone has to shoulder the burden but when you’re working, when you have a job you expect to be able to put a roof over your family’s head, to be able to put food on the table, to heat your house in cold weather to be able to pay for the basics at least. Instead what people in this country are doing is turning on each other, saying “if I don’t have it why should he?” Begrudgery, is that all we’re good at?

      Reply
  • Average pay 900 per week? I take home 500 a week…. I wonder how much the dentist makes a week from medical card holders…??

    Reply
  • Protect anyone under €40k a year – only fair, they do most of the work and have the stress of working within failing systems.

    Reply
    • Mick 15/09/12 #

      Nope, protect their 40k a year but get rid of job security so that performance come into play… I have no problem with civil service once there is proper performance management in place and people are paid according to what they do.

      Reply
    • Kim 15/09/12 #

      Yep @Mick I agree 2 verbal and 1 written warning after that your out. There are some that hide behind the job security and won’t do a tap…. I know I’ve met them they give the honest descent hard working frontline staff a bad name. It’s not right.

      Reply
  • Don’t touch the dentists wages – its painfully enough every time I go. I don’t want her upset.

    Reply
  • comparing the private and public sector is like comparing apple’s and oranges . as you have stated in your article most public sector workers have third degree qualifications so why shouldn’t they get paid a premium for their services. I do agree that the cpa is flawed and upper management should be trimmed . there should be a root and branch review of what each employee does in each section and staff surplus to requirements should be offered redundancy or reassigned . I work in the public service and I have seen the technical staff numbers decimated while admin staff have been left relatively untouched . if my wages are cut any further it won’t be a case of no more sun holidays for me it’ll be how will I put diesel in the car to get to work.

    Reply
  • Another well heeled man explaining why ordinary people are being paid too much. The vast majority of people protected under croke park from FURTHER pay cuts earn less than the average industrial wage.

    How about targetting the higher paid public servants by introducing a third rate of tax above 80K? This would not breach croke park and protect the lower paid. Oh, thats right, the guy who wrote the article would have to put his hands in his pocket.

    Just another piece from somebody who thinks the answer to the crisis is taking money off everybody except him.

    Reply
  • I work within the public service and even I think the CP agreement is unsustainable. It’s nuts. Furthermore the way the unions are going on at the end of it all the goverment are just going to take it all away. The unions are better off sitting down now, see where the cuts can be made, rather than having a situation in 2014 where the goverment jsut simply wont cut any deals at all for the way the unions are acting now. Maddening situation.

    Reply
    • Having read both columns I have to say they both show some amount of writing style which pits public and private sector workers against each other.

      The CPA has it’s benefits but it also has contributed more to inequality than anything else. I would agree with some comments about how much the public sector lagged behind during the boom times. The problem here is that you can’t invoke “swings and roundabouts” as if that makes it ok for the average public sector wage to be so glaringly ahead of the private sector average.

      What is needed is some political backbone – a public service with a completely different pay structure which does not see the door open for such bashing in the future.

      The average wage in the public service is not made up by average workers. At either end of the spectrum there are the highly paid (who deserve the attention of the PS basher) and the new entrants (who’s pay levels are simply being raped to sustain those who were already there – and deserve public sympathy).

      The unions have certainly failed with respect to equality here.

      Reply
    • The government isn’t cutting deals with the private sector and if you are self employed you are screwed. The government won’t dismantle CPA as they are part of the problem . Public service in this country is crippling the economy . Fact

      Reply
    • In my opinion people on the dole include public sector workers! Cut the life of social welfare because it too is breaking the economy. I’ve friends on the dole who get rent allowance and medical cards all for doing nothing. I work my ass off and i’m barely scraping by. My unemployed mates are living the high life. Easy money, no pressure, free healthcare. You’d be dumb to work. They government are paying them too.

      There will be many problems if the CPA deal is broken and more if there are wages cuts too. Do remember that the wages of public sector workers HAVE been cut too by up to 20% and more. What the government want here is to pit the private and public sector against each other, to make them the blame for the problems.

      Everyone on the dole or private sector complain about the amount ofthe public sector work force. There are more children in education, the are many sick people in hospital, the are many services that STILL need to be provided. Many of you who complain about these workers do even more complaining when you pick up the phone and there are no Gardaí, nurses or teachers answering because their numbers are remaining still while taking in and taking on more workloads.

      This is not just a public sector issue. Most people who hate the private sector do because a) they are out of work and jealous of others working and NEED to blame someone. b) The government want us fighting so it takes the fight off them.

      Reply
    • Fun Fact: Keith ran as PD in the 2007 general election

      Reply
    • Conor, it sounds like you’re trying to make an emotional appeal here – those filthy scroungers living the high life for free!!!

      This is ridiculous and not the case at all. It’s true many workers are faced with bills they can’t afford but on average you are certainly not better off on the dole. Rent allowance requires a minimum contribution and any additional benefits(if you even qualify for them) are being continually cut.

      Don’t forget that people who are “scarping to get by” often quality for some degree of assistance as well.

      The fact is most people want to work and you’re playing the same game you accuse the government of trying to set people against the unemployed. It’s irresponsible and malicious.

      Reply
  • peter 15/09/12 #

    I pay for my own pension not you Gerry and I actually pay taxes aswell. I know its amazing public sector workers pay tax imagine that. My wages have not gone up and in fact are down roughly 30%. Why doesn’t the author start charging realistic prices for dental work. The absolute cheek of a dentist to come on here and complain about someone else pay when they are guilty of robbing people blind. I hear of a Hungarian dentistry practice that has set up here to charge fair prices. I have read some shite on here but for a dentist, you have a cheek, hopefully any public servant that reads that Crap will spread your name about the public sector and you lose a few customers. Of all the medical practices to preach.

    Reply
  • Look it simple here it’s not bashing , yes there are P.S workers who are hurting but when you have lord mayors on 100,000 + year and the likes of mr o Hearn on 300,000 plus a year there the ppl who they should go after ,I don’t work in P.S but that’s how think

    Reply
  • though i agree that many trade union officials need a slap for the way they are going on. and id love to meet the guy who takes home 900 a week! the average wage of the emergency service workers in my department is about 500 a week, that’s than the private sector average.

    Reply
  • What a lazy piece of journalism. Do your research. Firstly most public servants have taken a 25% hit on their pay, I’m a public servant & have seen my take home pay by €600 a month. The annual pay rise you refer to, or the incremental scale only applies to junior staff starting off, these are on very poor yellow pack wages at the start. When you get promoted you also get increments for 3/4 years. In both these cases it’s very similar to what happens in the private sector. Also the allowances referred to are generally paid to people who go that extra mile, gain extra qualifications or do extra work. I don’t see many public servants driving company cars, using a company mobile phone, having their VHI paid for or getting a christmas bonus!

    Wise up & stop picking on the easy target!!!!

    Reply
    • I think your numbers are a bit off there Austin. A 25% pay cut or a 25% salary cut, or do you mean a 25% reduction in overtime, allowances, pension subsidies etc. In the private sector you pay BIK on company cars and VHI, bonuses are charged with the normal rates of tax.

      Reply
    • Pierce2020 the 25% pay cut is purely a basic pay cut & the pension levy. You need to stop believing the spin & look a little deeper into this!

      Reply
    • According to Caroline (2 posts down), there has been a 5% pay cut could you please explain the other 20%.

      Reply
    • Pierce2020 you are now showing you are now showing a basic lack of knowledge as how the public service pay cuts worked, this reinforces my belief that you are just consumed by the spin on this issue. For the record lower paid public service workers, such as new entrants, took a lesser basic pay cut. I received a 9% basic cut & the rest is made up of the pension levy.
      And before you start on the pension levy, the amount I paid for my pension was a condition of my service when I joined. Anybody could have joined the public service & availed of these conditions but there were obviously better conditions on offer elsewhere!!

      Reply
    • Austin just we are clear, you received a 9% pay cut and the other 16% is a pension levy is that correct?

      Reply
  • This article from a dentist, business man and media presenter……….add the half pence to the pence!
    Give it a rest…no wonder you’re smiling!!

    Reply
  • Keith, I, as a public sector worker,.have to say that I am not getting any pay rises, nor have I got a pay rise in a couple of years..as a mater of fact, my wages are down over 120 a week now since they made cuts etc etc….I hate this type of commentary by people in private sector etc…yes we have “good” jobs and we did have “very good wages” too…but we are paying now because of the cuts and social charges etc….I would love to show you my payslip and let you see what I personally am getting a week….

    Reply
  • Many contributors are missing the point here. The pay criticism is predominantly of the management level. Most members of the public have very positive experiences with the public sector but these are with frontline workers that are generally among the lowest paid in their respective organisations.

    But even acknowledging that many are not paid a fortune (considering the cost of living) that is not to say that they don’t earn a good wage for their skill set. The real criticism is of the invisible layers who make all the decisions but reap the greatest rewards.Remember that hospitals don’t run over budget because of the amounts paid to nurses, receptionists and cleaners who are clearly working harder for their pay. Hospitals are over budget because they are pooly managed

    There are many poor work practices in the public sector but it is the reposnibility of management to put them right but there is such a large maangement layer that are protected by the same practices that real change is as likely as turkeys voting for Christmas.

    Yes there are people in the private sector getting more that they are worth but most likely in areas where their roles are protected by some barrier to entry or where the organisations they work for have lucrative public sector contracts. The only private sector wages I know of that grew dispropotionately in the boom were those involved in the building trade.

    As the article points out, the unions have been reduced to protecting the working wealthy

    Reply
    • Stephen, the whole point of a union is to protect the wages and conditions of it’s members.That is what we pay our subs. for.To criticise them for that is illogical.There are different unions representing different grades and professions and each , naturally concentrates on the interests of it’s own members.To say that unions protect the “working wealthy” as you do, is a distortion, except in the case of those unions that represent higher civil servants and medical consultants.

      Reply
    • I wasn’t criticising the union. Their roll is clear, as you point out. Ironic that the unions of the higher paid seem to be better organised that those of the lower paid.
      Off course this is just referring to the historical points raised by the article. The basic point was that there is no one group of public servants no more than there is one group of private sector workers.

      Reply
  • peter 15/09/12 #

    I really cant get over this one a dentist complaining about public service say. If your struggling you must have been the dentist that does the dental work for the smackheads on the boardwalk. Ill be informing all my colleagues about this article

    Reply
  • as far as i am aware dentist fees have not been reduced. dentists remain one of the best paid professions in the country and have scant regard for anything other than the trappings of wealth. to publish this diatribe against low and middle income state employees from this scource is laughable as are references to larkin from a small buisinessman who in 1913 would probably have called for larlkin and his comrades to be executed.

    Reply
  • It is precisely because the agreement covers highly over paid consultants along with the lower levels / front mine workers that is a massive flaw with agreement , depending which side you are employed on you are going to understandably get angry and highlight the the major benefits / flaws for each sector so here’s my tuppence worth , Of the 27 euro countries Ireland has something like the 3rd levels of pay to public sector ,one of the highest for paying consultants , yet we are a broke bailed out country. During the boom times when allegedly people were ‘laughing” at public sector earnings the great concept of ” benchmarking” was introduced at massive costs to the country , yet the Uk Germany France etc have a much better correlation between what’s earned / paid in public v private sectors. Seems we don’t want to benchmark when times are not so good. We still pay 360000 a year to head if FAI , some consultants are paid 3 and 4 00000 a year , radio presenter like Marian Finucane is paid half a million a year for a weekend only slot , I use these examples to highlight the plain obvious , we cannot keep the existing arrangements in place as a broke country and it would be in the country’s interest to stop hiding behind a blanket agreement and address the problem

    Reply
  • I would agree trade unions have allot to answer for and have lost their way and forgot what they are there for. Unfortunately it is the front line that always takes the brunt of cut backs, the number of admin staff need to be slashed, emergency services need tobe increased.
    Social welfare payments need to be meens tested, I know people getting there rent paid, allowance for bills, medical cards, free travel & the list goes on. This is on top of the weekly €188 a week that now is effectively disposable income.

    Reply
  • ah yes, lets take out the public service beating stick again, but say nothing of the fact that nobody spared them a thought in the boom times when most guards and nurses were priced out of the property market and the private sector workers were making a fortune! i lost count of the amount of times i was laughed at for taking home a civil servants wage. and as for these rising wages? i wholly agree that many top level civil servants are over paid but what about the rest of us? i work in the emergency services and every week Im abused, threatened, belittled, forced to do the impossible on ever decreasing budgets and constantly answering the cries for help from the public in their time of desperate need when there is nobody else to call who can do what i do. my weekly take home pay, when you factor in removal of all overtime, has dropped by 200 euro. so id love for the author to clarify how he thinks my wages are constantly rising?

    Reply
    • @Openminded, why don’t you vote with your feet and leave your tough, thankless badly paid job? Tell the Govt where to shove that crappy pension and rid yourself of the pressure of a guaranteed job…..yes, come and join us in the private sector where the the good times are still rolling. Join the droves of PS workers who are leaving their jobs for a better life.

      Reply
    • Mick 15/09/12 #

      Well said Sean…t

      Reply
    • @Sean, there are many who enter the public service into jobs like EMT, nursing, teaching, fire service who don’t have a private sector equivalent.

      Yes, there may be job security in these areas which doesn’t match the private sector but to suggest they currently have a lot of choice is disingenuous.

      People primarily enter these areas for altruistic reasons and Openminded has just pointed out the shitty end of wanting to work at something that can make a direct difference in people’s lives – if you think he deserves your bitterness I think you should direct it a bit higher up the chain in the public service.

      Reply
    • Sean
      Emergency workers vote with their feet?
      What are you going to do when you need them?

      Reply
    • Mick 15/09/12 #

      Wrong, nursing and teaching have private equivalents… Plus if you don’t want to compare to them, compare to other countries teachers and nurses…it’s not pretty reading guys…

      Reply
    • @openminded very well said and totally agree with being taunted into boom for a public sector wage.
      @Sean, you must remember that Gardai for example cannot strike (insert torrent of anti Gardai abuse here) the support for your comment only goes to show the contempt people have for the public service as a whole.

      Reply
    • I’ll say it again Mick – what are you going to do when you need emergency care? Complain they are being paid too much?

      Reply
    • I think that you are missing the point a bit there Sean. There are many many public service workers working at the frontline doing their best to help the weak and vulnerable in society. But yes, there are also many who are not deserving of their large pay packets. One of the biggest problems particularly in the HSE are the many layers of unnecessary middle management that sprang up during the boom years and front line services are now being cut in order to sustain their wages. Each government area should be able to look at where redundancies could be given to cut out this unneccessary waste and also if people in government took time to consult with frontline staff about where savings could be made they would be better informed to do their jobs. It really is not fair to just say that all public sector workers are overpaid and don’t earn their money.

      Reply
    • Public sector workers enjoy Job security. That includes waster clerical staff who should be taken out and shot for robbing this country of their wages.

      Reply
    • @Elizabeth – thank you for furthering the conversation…. pathetic.

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    • Ok, ok I exaggerated a little for comic effect. Of course a Garda cannot join a private police force but if things were really that bad s/he could retrain and become e.g. a software programmer, people who lost their jobs deal with the challenge of retraining every week. I’m guessing that even if Mr. Garda or Ms. Teacher does get another salary cut we still won’t even see an exodus from the PS and we certainly won’t have a problem in finding people to fill any vacancies in the PS. I ask you to just take a step back and look at the simple economic principal of Supply v’s Demand, if PS workers really have it so bad compared to private sector workers then we would see a tangible flow of workers leaving the Public Sector. I am not suggesting for a second that any PS worker earning less than 40k take another pay-cut but I do have a major problem with these workers complaining how tough they have it, move jobs or stop complaining!

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    • To say public sector workers didnt benefit in the boom times is wrong, most of the extra taxes went on benchmarking and 1000s of extra ps workers, and extra social welfare.
      We simply cant afford to pay u what u are accustomed too.

      Reply
  • Primary School Teachers are down 19.5% in their pay. Fact. What is this rubbish about public sector workers having to take more pain. Has Welfare been cut 19.5%.Ah nope. Has every private sector workers been cut 19.5%.Ah,nope. Indeed many have had pay rises.

    Reply
    • Not to argue with you B, but could you break down the 19.5%.

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    • Hell of a lot of private sector workers have been cut 100% and have to emigrate. or stay here and beg for jobs to stay off the dole.
      I’m not into this public vs private shit , it sets people against each other. Noone expects the public sector to work for nothing and noone is suggesting the lower end of the scale should be cut. its the unjustifiable rates being paid to the senior management in top heavy organisations. The fact is these are tax euros being handed out and can and should be questioned. the private sector for the most part is self regulating. the will cut wages and staff inline with how much money they take in. The goverment is broke and garunteeing no job losses or wage cuts, something has to give…

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    • Bilbo – I’m with you there – lots of people seem to miss this point, that it’s the top wages that are really costing the taxpayer.

      New entrants are being particularly screwed.

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  • DubDon 15/09/12 #

    Public service bashing at its best and coming from some one who has probably raped the public purse with medical card patients etc over the last number of years.
    No one in the private sector looks back to the height of the boom when you were laughed at for taking a public sector job. The private sector lost the run of themselves. Hugely inflated private sector wages forced public servants out of the property market until we finally managed to gain wage parity now after taking a substantial hit to our take home pay you want blood. We still have families to feed mortgages to pay just like ye I say hike up taxes for us all and let us all pay… Now how do you like that you f**king tool

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  • The public sector unions expect the same levels of pay as in the good times. This is simply not possible, we don’t have the money. I wonder how much would be saved by outsourcing some of the roles in the public sector to private companies, not emergency services but passport office etc.

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    • johnny 15/09/12 #

      My wife works with the public sector temporary and as a result of the recruitment ban is employed through a agency the best bit is the government are paying her AND the recruitment agency and all to save money.

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    • Greed and incompetence lie at the heart of our economic crisis. The most insidious and destructive greed has coveted taxpayer revenues at the expense of the greater economy.
      The Croke Park agreement has delivered no real savings and current establishment rhetoric is an attempt to justify the unjustifiable and avoid difficult decisions.

      http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1024483.shtml

      There has been more talk in recent years about the Cantillon effect. Richard Cantillon, an 18th century Irish economist described the distorting effect a credit bubble has on an economy. He observed that an economy is unlikely to return to growth until those areas of the economy inflated during the bubble return, relatively, to their pre-bubble dimensions. If his observations are correct, the current bloated dimensions of Ireland’s public sector are an impediment to growth.

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    • You seem to be unaware that most public/civil servants have taken pay cuts of up to 30% over the last 3 years. Therefore salaries are not what they were when times were good

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    • Mary, it would add more weight to your argument if you could reference a credible source for your assertion.

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  • @Keith Redmond
    I hope you’re not as careless and indiscriminate in your dental work as you are in your facts in your”column”.
    Your gripe against public servants should persuade many to boycott your practice. Personally I’d prefer to have my dental work done by a blind,drunken yak driver in Outer Mongolia than to attend your surgery. I’ve a feeling you’re the type that ends up talking to themselves in a corner at parties, as people can’t abide an opinionated, insufferable, fact-mangling bore at the best of times …

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  • I think all sectors of the Irish economy needs to get real (and thankfully some already have). Ireland is an open economy of about 4 million people. All wages from TDs to street cleaners, factory workers and big business people need to be bench-marked against other open economies of about 4 million people. That means paying our people the same as their counter-part in Manchester, Saxon region in Germany, Finland etc. There is going to be some average that balances pay rates and the corresponding rates of direct, indirect and corporate tax that we can use to make Ireland more competitive and economically sustainable. When we achieve that two things will happen. The increased competitiveness will bring more jobs into the country and secondly the lower cost of living index means we will have a better standard of living. The L’Oriel moment is over …. we are not worth it.

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  • Very well put the majority of civil servants are overpaid in the country when in reality they should be underpaid because of the job security they receive. Civil servants is supposed to be a Job you could take great pride in now the majority are just milking the government dry. What I find crazy is that the most important civil servants seem to be some of the most underpaid. We need a complete overhaul of the public sector where nurses and Garda etc are protected and the fat cat paper pushers wages are reeled in.

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    • “Underpaid because of job security”

      Are you joking? Can people pay bills with job security?

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    • Mick 15/09/12 #

      Johnny, job security is currently part of the terms and conditions of the job.. Ok, so if they don’t think this counts then take it away…only then would be get real reform..so we could weed out the performing workers from the poorly preforming workers…how do you feel about that? I for one think it’s a great idea.

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    • Ask any private sector person who has lost there job about how important job security is! The facts are that on average the public sector is getting a better deal on both side’s more wages and job security. Under NO circumstances should civil servants be getting more money than private sector workers.

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    • johnny 15/09/12 #

      Job security was the carrot to get staff into the job does not mean they should be paid less. And I think you’ll find it was open to everyone to apply if was was such a good thing why didn’t all the begrudgers apply

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    • johnny 15/09/12 #

      It’s a funny old country where because people loose there jobs thne a certain sector should not be paid or paid very very little. The people one here looking for cuts too public sector have failed to reply to those brave enough to post their weekly take home pay and explain where they would cut anymore

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    • johnny 15/09/12 #

      It’s a funny old country where because people loose there jobs then a certain sector should not be paid or paid very very little. The people one here looking for cuts too public sector have failed to reply to those brave enough to post their weekly take home pay and explain where they would cut anymore

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    • Mick 15/09/12 #

      Johnny, not at all..we want to pay you what other similar counties would pay you…wats the problem with that?

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    • @ mick… Do you want social welfare payments to be the same as other countries too???

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    • Mick 15/09/12 #

      Absolutey…what is wrong with that?

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    • @Mick We can’t compare our pay to that in countries where an average house costs half of what some of us paid in the boom. The public servants with mortgages of twice the value of their property are still struggling to pay them on greatly reduced wages (19.5% reduced)

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    • Mick 15/09/12 #

      Catherine, you don’t base pay on house prices! You base house prices on pay!!! Jez there are some really innocent people out there!!!!

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  • Correct me if I’m wrong
    But Private Sector workers are in business to make a profit, and if they’re making a profit then they get more money. If it all goes bad, thats part of what being in business is.
    Public Service workers are there to serve the public. That means there is no hope of gaining from profits.
    Stop your whingeing private sector – you were not complaining in the good times, now you must take your medicine in the bad – thats life

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    • That’s the problem Dave, the public sector don’t serve the public to the level their pay should reflect, when there’s bad times, private sector lose their jobs, public sector p*ss and moan about the pension levy, well for some, the majority of the public sector in service providing capacities, in particular civil servants, are the most inefficient workers imaginable and wouldn’t last an hour in a private sector business

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    • You’re forgetting all the front line workers Gaius. People who risk their lives and health to save yours. Private sector workers lose their jobs because something went wrong in their business – regretable sure, but thats life

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    • And there we Go ! Have you being in a coma for the past five years ? And not everyone in the private sector are capitalist pigs , some just want to feed their family’s and “save” for our retirement ! Also what about all the grads that have left collage in the past five years that are locked out of your PS CLUB . Are they getting their medicine to ? I pay my tax and corporation tax to line the pockets of fools like you ? If anyone in my business spoke to one of my customers like that they would not have a job very long . And my point is we pay for whatever service YOU provide us ! Thank you

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    • Mick 15/09/12 #

      Very true John, just one thing though, why can public servents not be paid the same as other equivalent countries???

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    • @Mick I understand there were OECD reports which showed Irelands Public Sector, relative to that of other European countries, offered value for money, worked as hard if not harder as their European counterparts and did not have any more holidays per year and basically offers good service. Our economy is also approximately 20% higher than our European neighbours so it stands to reason that salaries are going to be 20% higher, all this was before the disasterous government employment embargo so this has to be taken into account. I had a quick look and came across this quotes form an OECD Report.

      Global health employment in Ireland (30.8 per 1000 inhabitants) remains just below the average of OECD countries.

      In France for example, there is one aid-nurse (“aide soignante”), or nurse assistant working with each
      nurse. In addition, the number of Advanced Nurse Practitioners (ANPs) in Ireland remains
      low and there are difficulties in attracting interest from nurses to train in some specialist
      areas.

      The Irish are, with the exception of the Mexicans, by far the lowest users of medical
      care within OECD countries. For in-patient as well as out-patient services, international
      comparisons show that there is no overuse of medical care in Ireland compared to other
      OECD countries, the number of surgical procedures performed per annum in
      Ireland is low: 43 per 1 000 population.

      I think we can safely say that was before, things from now on are only going to get worse as we’re expected to do more with less, as they like to say.

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  • Bet the dentist didn’t think he’d be exposed as a PD. Mc Dowells little voice, crawl back under whatever stone you emerged from.

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  • Gaius, eh, no.

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  • Michael Taft is possibly the only economist in this state who has ‘gotten’ this crisis from the start. That so many comments appear to take him to task displays a lack of critical awareness and they could do worse than to educate themselves by reading his blog ‘notes on the front’.

    It’s an interesting comparison between Keith Redmond’s piece on Croke Park and Michael Taft’s. The former is entirely fact free, has no grasp of the nuances of public sector pay and plays to the gallery. That an educated professional would use such stupid, and that’s being charitable, argumentation and ratiocination is a damning indictment of the intellectual level of many of our ‘common sense’ upper middle-class professionals. Micheal’s contribution, by contrast, sets out the real economic cost that will follow from a further reduction in public sector pay. And there will be real economic consequences to cutting public sector pay which will throw thousands in the private sector out of work, but not Keith who will continue looking after the dental needs of hedge fund and merchant bank operatives (would it be impolite to raise the 7 billion plus paid the unsecured bondholders so far this year by the Irish taxpayer, both in the public and private sector? Yes, better not raise those taboo issues).

    Keith Redmond is an individual completely lacking in self-awareness, hence the membership of the PDs, I suppose. His practice does not take medical cards (ruling out many private sector worker struggling to get by) if you’re in dental distress and on the median income don’t come a runnin’ to Keithy boy and chums unless you’ve first visited the bank manager! I don’t think I’ve ever read such a gruesomely hypocritical article in my life and absolutely typical of the right wing medical ‘entrepreneurs’ who are proliferating in this society like a plague, intent, as they are, on denying basic services to citizens who can’t pay their exorbitant fees and are instead focusing on providing glitzly practices in the IFSC while hundreds of thousands of their fellow citizens endure pain and dental decay because the 100 euro plus that it costs to see Keith for a few minutes is way beyond their financial capability (if you don’t believe me call Redmond-Molloy and ask how much it costs for an appointment, which includes an x-ray for 40 euros).

    Redmond quotes a figure of the average private sector salary of 600 euro. That’s actually higher than the median wage (ca. 27,000 p.a.) and it’s explained by the hundreds of thousands working in the private sector who earn between 10,000 per year and 20,000 per year being balanced out by the 30,000 or so who earn hundreds of thousands and more (including Keith, no doubt).

    Redmond’s disgusting invocation of Jim Larkin (Keithy must have read Eddie Molloy’s diatribes in the Irish Times, our Keith’s an original thinker!!) reveals his lack of self-awareness alluded to above. If private sector workers began to organise in this state to increase their wages and conditions, Keith and his cohorts would be shrieking from the rooftops about how giving a forklift driver an extra 1000 euro a year pay increase would damage ‘our’ competitiveness. Were there constant strikes in this state (which there would be if Jim Larkin’s spiritual heirs were leading the trade union movement here) in search of better pay for workers in the private sector, and there was no parallel industrial militancy in the public sector, Keith would be writing articles about how the militant private sector should copy the quiescent public sector.

    I’ll say to Keith what I say to all business people who are anti-public sector: put up a notice in your practice that all patients who work in the public sector must pay a premium, equal to that between the public sector and private sector average wage that he cites (it’s bullshit but he seems to believe it), and have the courage of his convictions. However, I can assure him that many public servants will not (ever!) be in a position to frequent his practices given the charges he currently levies.

    But hey, it’s the public sector worker on 40-50k that’s killing this country. Did I mention the 7 billion paid so far this year to unsecured bondholders? I think I did. But remember, kids, your teacher is the enemy! Perhaps the PDs will dust down some of Chairman Mao’s manuals from the cultural revolution and we can look forward to teachers standing with heads bowed at the top of the class while two or three 12 year olds batter them with copies of the EU-IMF Memorandum of Understanding and demand that said teachers denounce the ‘running dogs’ and ‘lackeys’ who seek to defy the terms of the Troika by demanding a decent income for all.

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  • The sad thing is, all this arguing is ignoring the reality. Croke Park will be torn up and there will be no renegotiation if you do not accept it now. The IMF have little patience with this carry on from both the unions and the Government and will not tolerate much more delays. Remember this, no amount of protesting, strike action or anything else is going to restore any pre crash levels of pay so long as the IMF are paying for it. They live in DC and don’t give two monkeys what you do. My advice is to force your Unions into renegotiations before you are left with nothing. Do it quick because you are running out of time. Don’t believe me? Look at Greece….

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    • Dave ,

      With the greatest respect you know nothing about me . I’ve worked with the FDNY and the RNLI for the past 18 years , in both organisations as a volunteer . I’ve got plenty of friends to help me out and none have your terms and conditions ! So you only help if there’s something in it for you ! How different we are !

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  • Even if they justify their crazy wages how can they justify US paying their pensions ? As a business owner I don’t even get social security in this wonderful little country of “ours” yet I employe , pay taxes ,rates , and a whole lot more .
    Im not complaining but it dose upset me to know where my taxes are going now .
    At least in NYC and London I get a statement of where my taxes are spent.
    Until this happens here things will never get better .
    One bunch of self serving clowns collecting all the taxes centrally and taking what the want and throwing the crumbs back to our elderly , sick, educational system .
    Eat well our glutinous bureaucrats ! There is a belly ache coming as We the Fat cats have had enough .
    I’m part of that diaspora that opened an office here after 20 years away and have to say the Irish people the ones that want to work for their wages are pensions are second to none ! Pity the clowns here calling the shots don’t see the resource they are abusing .
    Very few company’s set up here for tax breaks they do it because the Irish work force are adaptable and willing to give it all .
    I hope that wind of change comes sooner rather than later .
    Just my view looking in .

    Reply
    • Gerry, you are not paying for my pension, I am and have been for the past 39 years.My pay was cut by 14.9% between the first pay cut and the Public Service Pension Levy, which it’s progenitor , the Late Brian Lenihan,admitted was a pay cut as well.That is because there is no PS pension fund and we are not allowed to opt out.
      As others have already pointed out this dentist turned journalist has a neck of brass and a loose grip on the facts.

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    • @ Gerry: “Even if they justify their crazy wages ”

      The vast majority of public servants make less than the average industrial wage. How can you classify their wages as ‘crazy’ when most make less than the average joe??

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    • Actually Brendan, he does pay your pension, and your wages, everyone in the private sector pays public sector salaries through tax, do you think your wages come from a big vault in Dáil Eireann? And i’m getting sick of PS whinging about their pension levy, in the private sector we would have to pay 25% of our salary to get the gold plated pensions that await you on retirement.

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  • Thanks for all the comments. There are certainly some that I take on board, especially the personal examples. The personal attacks are a little disappointing but I respect the passion that inspires them. Unfortunately the wordcount limit restricted a fuller debate within the article. 40% of PS workers earn under 40k. I don’t think anyone is suggesting cuts at that level but when the ‘Head of Student Experience’ in UCC is earning 146k, I think most would think there’s probably scope for a little more wage trimming. Again, thanks for reading and commenting.

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    • So why did the article have a picture of a nurse????

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    • The problem is that when the government kakes cuts of 10% across the board and use phrases like “it’s to make it fair”, “so everyone can shoulder the burden” etc. it’s like a fisherman using a fine net, everything gets caught. To a consultant earning €200k 10% means he looses €20k, not a lot when you have that sort of money and possible a nice private practice on the side. But to a nurse, cleaner, or porter earning €25k or €30k, well, that’s a different story, it means €2,500 – €3,000. Nothing to the consultant, but how many mortgages could that pay, how much heating could it pay for, oil, gas or coal, maybe put petrol or diesel in a car for a year. For a low paid worker it makes a huge difference.

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    • Keith, You had every opportunity in your article to direct it solely at the higher paid public sector workers, you did not. Your article contains cherrypicked statistics and uses them to attack the croke park agreement, an agreement which covers workers who are for the most part on less than the average industrial wage.

      Reply
    • Methinks Dr. Dentist realises that his ill-informed rant may result in few visits from public servants to his little shop of horror..

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    • Mick 16/09/12 #

      Stupid childish comment over an article John

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  • I think the CP agreement isn’t working as applications for invalidity pensions are taking 6 months to process. It is not fair to the less well off in society. They said they would improve efficiency but the opposite has happened. The sick are being punished because the better off wont cooperate.

    Reply
  • Mick 16/09/12 #

    Ah, too many vested interests shouting there heads off here for me….bring in the IMF to run the show on CP..let them make the hard the decisions that are going to upset a few people but are need to be done. They are the guys that are essentially paying ye so try upsetting them-if ye dare ;-)

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  • A turkey won’t vote for Christmas. And our politicians are hardly going to want their wages or any public sector wages to be cut.

    Our government is full of teachers and there’s no way they’re going to pull the rug from under their friends back in the old school.

    It’ll take something big for the CP agreement to be dealt with in the proper manner. Until then, it’ll just be a boring old debate that’ll rumble on.

    Reply
    • Not alone that but their pay scale is directly related to the max of senior civil servants, therefore it’s very easy for them to crib about incremental scales because without any experience they automatically receive the max. They also conveniently forget to mention the obscene amounts they claim for travel and subsistence, especially so called socialist TDs in the Dublin area

      Reply
  • @John O Neill Your comment is a reflection of the smug ‘ can’t beat City Hall ‘ attitude that’s exists in some, repeat some , parts of the NPS ( N for not ! ) and is used threateningly in a very silent and sinister way , particularly in rural Ireland where the public and private sectors interact face to face daily. I would say that this attitude could easily be expressed and espoused also by NPS who do not interact with the public , thus explaining your archaic , out of touch ‘ siege ‘ mentality .
    I am forced to use a username for that very reason .
    The columnist made very clear logical arguments , that you are unable to deny , but you instead resort to type , and proceed to threaten and attempt to bully by suggesting a boycott ….typical union tactics !

    Reply
  • Just a suggestion -

    Scrap CPA for public sector workings earning more than 60k

    Keep it for those under?

    Reply

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