We are (rightfully) obsessed with all things sexual – especially when children are concerned. Cards on the table here. I am a Mass goer with a deep faith – and very proud of it.

It is sad to see the comments immediately above (with people not missing an opportunity to knock the Church and its flock.

One thing to remember. Like all sections of society it was infiltrated by paedophiles. And the worst part was the cover up.

It is ludicrous that, in this day and age, that we cannot still have married or women priests to start with.

The Church had to change – and be seen to. And fast. Otherwise it will crumble.

I have the greatest respect for the beliefs (or lack thereof) of others. Yes I would have a problem with some religions.

But, unfortunately, for whatever reason, people seemed poised over keyboards to ridicule those who profess The Lord.

But yet some of those will have their children receive the sacraments whilst at the same time hiding their disdain whilst attending. A funny ole world as they say.

A sad day indeed.

Eamonn, I have no problem ridiculing the church in public and infact I regularily debate the hypocrisy of the church with some ‘pious’ family and friends.

The two most common things I learn from such debates are

1) I know more about the factual history of the church than them
2) when asked ‘name one good thing the christian church has done for mankind’. No one’s come up with one yet…….maybe youll fare better

So Eamonn, do you feel the Church should not be knocked? “Cards on the table” indeed. The Church is the one place where cards are never on the table unless their hand is forced. Paedophiles have infiltrated society? So this bishop in Scotland, who was going at lads in their late teens, was he a paedophile? Or, and I am asking simply for clarification, is paedophilia and homosexuality much of a sameness for you?

@Alan. Don’t be a bigot. Faith is faith. Just because you don’t have it or clearly know nothing about it it doesn’t mean it don’t exist. There are people who have faith in God. Superstition is a completely different issue. Look it up.

Eamonn,
Im sure you didnt mean to but you said in your first sentence the church is (rightfully) obsessed with all things sexual, especially when children are concerned – is the church obsessed with sex with children? ( it seems so….)
Why is the church so ‘rightfully’ obsessed with all things sexual? Jesus did not go on about ‘all things sexual’ – he preached love and tolerance.
the church’s obsession with sex and contraception has led to real harm – the spread of AIDS and othe sexually transmitted disease and overpopulation.
And may well lead to the demise of your church

@Christopher – I respect your right to believe what you want but I don’t respect the belief in itself and I will openly criticise it. Millions of people having “faith” does not immunise that belief system from criticism, satire and ridicule. Frankly I would much rather you debate that belief system with me than cry “we have faith leave us alone”. If you cannot defend it from criticism then how much “faith” do you actually have in it?

@Ian: you’ll see from my comment above that I do no think they should be knocked. I do (and continue) to criticise them if I see fit. I laid my cards on the table.

I have nothing to hide. I am proud of my faith and am eternally grateful to God for the life and family I have been blessed.

It does sadden me to see the vitriol aimed at the direction of myself and people like me. Calumny, etc I suppose.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion – even those two-horned Catholics (as perceived by some) like myself.

Will the Church collapse? Possibly. Will those one billion or so Catholic s just fold up their tents. Absolutely not.

And Ian – for what it is worth I have relations and friends who are gay. And, to be honest, it’s a cheap shot on your behalf to present such an “argument”.

@Dave. Nice try Dave. You know what my sentiments were. ALL paedophiles – religious or other – shod face the full rigours of the law. Full stop.

But why Eammon is the church so obsessed with sex and people’s sex lives?

Hard to know Dave. Some will quote you scripture; other church law. Personally? I believe it’s people’s own business and given what the Church itself has covered up, should no longer be an issue.

The verb “to knock” used as a transitive verb mean to criticize. So, you don’t think the Church should not be knocked, yet you criticize it. Gobbeldygook!!!! But then, you adher to an organisation which specialises in contradictory outpourings. I said nothing to suggest YOU are hiding things. You, however, have mentioned it, so now I DO wonder. You are proud of believing in a girl giving birth without having been penetrated by a penis and being inseminated by the ejaculate exiting said penis? You are proud that each Sunday you eat the true body of Christ, thereby, if this truly is the body of God made man, committing the crime of cannabilism? Well Eamonn, so be it. You have a right to believe all that stuff and more. Pride is a highly subjective emotion, so, no skin off my nose. Now with regard to the “cheap shot” gay question. I found your wording unclear, but simply wasn’t sure whether or not there was a subtext. I asked for clarification and you answered. The “cheap” you used doesn’t say a lot about me, but speaks volumes about you.

wrote that while typing a report. busy day!!! just glide over the double negatives and misspellings. soz

No Ian. What I meant – and you know it – is that the Church is not beyond criticism. By me or anyone else for that matter.
However, there are people who spend their every waking hour – fingers poised – for the next opportunity to bash the Church

My faith is very strong Ian – and it would take a bit more than your rant above to shake it. ;)

But your knee jerk reaction is quite interesting. A lot
of frayed nerves there by the look of it…..

“No Ian” What question of mine are you answering? No, you don’t believe in the virginity of Mary? Or, no, you don’t believe in transubstantiation? Those were the questions I asked. Your writing is a string of non sequiturs. My “rant” is truly how I see these issues and I stated clearly that I accept people’s right to believe what they will. I am sure, although you have referred to an honest question on my part as cheap, that a person of you moral background will afford me the same respect. My frayed nerves??? Maybe a manifestation of the frustration at your lack of any true engagement with what I have said. Where have we experienced this before……oh yeah…. the Dáil, :-), amongst other places.

How can you be proud of your faith. What did you do to achieve it?

Seems like you’ve done nothing except accept the brainwashing you grew up with. Hardly something to be proud of

@Christopher – people had faith in the banks…….faith is an over rated concept. You’re entitled to any faith based on superstition but we’re entitled to point out the childish nature of your faith

Well said Alan

@Eamonn – your faith is NOT strong. Of it were you wouldn’t need to keep defending it. Very simply, your mind is not open. Two very different tjings

Eamonn, you get the green thumb from this Atheist. I wish there were more like you who will put dimples where they belong, and with the same breath condemn and point up the warts on the face of Catholicism. That allows for sharing and mutual respect.

I do ridicule the major religions of our day just as philosophers from Socrates, to Hitchens have. The highest calling in life is to be a philosopher…to seek truth (note the small “t”), and then to share it. It is not that hard to find a truth in science or in life’s experience, but when it is a hard, unpopular truth, confronting eons of entrenched culture and dogma, it gets tougher to noise it about. This board is filled with philosophers who noise about the light they have with others. To some it is insulting, but do they examine, and assay the comments they hate? Seems not, as few rebuttals grounded to fact are read, just hand wringing and calls for censorship.

We have enough common enemies to confront together, from microbes to militarism, where we can find friendship and mutual support. Can we not judge one another upon our conduct, and not our beliefs? Most of the people I love are Christians and they love me as well. Just as they do not hate the sinner, only the sin, I feel the same as a still-born Christian, I hate the manipulation of the masses by a myth, run by a covey of cabals, not the victims.

We were all born atheists, and agnostics, come back home, come back ye who have fallen away.
(Comic relief).

In my dictionary the second definition of “superstition” IS religion. Look it up.

Why do you have a problem with some religions. Your beliefs are just as ridiculous as the others. If you were raised in another religion, you’d believe their claptrap

The deeper the faith, the shallower the thinking

Marlon thank you for this well balanced comment. People use these subjects to spew hate of a church they were never a part of. They use it to justify their own hatred. In truth they were never up to reaching out in faith to help their neighbour or interested in living a life that challenges us to stand up to evil as being a true Christian teaches. They confuse the institutional church with people getting on with their lives and being guided by christian values. You make the correct distinction between believing in God and or the Church as an Institution. Some commentators have no clue of this difference so they spout the usual church hate and bigotry towards those of us who believe in God not a church. Big difference here a difference you can clearly see.

Thanks Christopher….

I fortunately had an advantage over most Irish folks when it comes to religion. I was brought with choice. Though I attended Catholic Schools and went to church. My parents permitted me to join my friends and their families when they went to their place of worship. I expereinced Judism, Lutherenism, Episcopalianism, Muslim and Greek Orthodoxism. I even joined one of those chfurch revival Babtist choirs (lol), that was a kick.

The point is that I God in all of these places. My God was no more important or better than anyone elses God. Nor did I loose my God when I was learning about other’s religious dogma. To me what was most important, was my parent’s support of being a good person regardless of what I am faced with. As a side note: The American Catholic Church supported segreation and inequality.

I eventually entered Catholic Seminary High School summer program to determine if the life of seminarian was suitable. It was not…. However, it was good for my Dad.

My Dad, after retiring from his career attended, the seminary and now is a Deacon or Lay Priest. He now works for the church and togther with my Mother supports disenfranchised the populations of my hometown.

Now when we’re togther we have delightful debates about religion, the church, God and self. Where does it fit in the scheme of life?

Again, I have had choice all my life. Many persons are not as fortunate as I or are willing to step out of their own comfort zone.

Good luck to you Christopher.

Christopher – give us one reason why, as a Christian, you are more moral, or right than the rest of us

Just one….

Careful now, the iona red thumb brigade will be out soon

Down with that sort of thing, people who are afraid of death? Are the ones, who believe in sky fairies and are easily led like braindead zombies!

above comments amaze me. If we are so afraid of death and believe in fairies why are atheists so obsessed with God. The only fear i see is through the comments of non believers. Faith allows you to let go of fear. Try it some time.

The reason we are so obsessed is that YOUR beliefs are shoved in our face every day without balance or respect for other religions or lack of religions. When a corrupt paedophile ring has infiltrated nearly every facet of modern life you can be damn sure I will be obsessed with criticising it every chance I get. Lest we forget you are almost as aetheist as me.

Christopher Gardiner, faith allows you to let go of fear?

Nonsense, look at the history of the catholic faith.

- Your born and die without being baptized…you go to hell..this later changed and then changed again, now its kind of ignored because people think its crap, handy that eh?
- You sin and you go to hell or limbo, but its ok your family can pay for your to get into heaven by getting the priest to pray for you
- You kill yourself because the church accuses you of being a witch or in lead with the devil and your soul goes to hell….your property goes to the church, works out great for the church.

Hundreds of fears of fear created by the church, many people especially older people still believe in the likes of limbo that was drilled into them as kids by the catholic church. These people still ask for masses to be said for people so they’ll get into heaven…and they still hand over money to do it.

Whilst some faiths can allow people to let go of fear in this case the catholic church has created fear throughout its history

Ah but you see the church was built up on this carry on. They can’t & don’t practice these things anymore. God has shown them the way & they’re a delightfully peaceful organisation now. They’ve changed their colours.

Hahah! There’s 7 of em there!

Blessed are the cheesemakers

They also never miss an opportunity to say that society is obsessed with sex. It is they who are obsessed with sex, not society. Society knows that sex is normal. The Vatican should stick to what it knows best and loves most – money

Borgia style….

Mysterious ways you see

If there is a god and it decides to appear, what makes any of us think we could ever even understand what it is we are seeing? The human mind may be advanced but we still cannot understand the sheer scale of the universe. So how could we understand a god?

That’s why I have to laugh at religions who claim to know all the answers. It is impossible to know. Yet the Pope makes a cushy living pretending to be the mouthpiece for a creature (who just so happens to look and act just like one of us only with superpowers) and claiming he cannot be wrong due to this. The sooner we start accepting the ridiculousness of ancient religions the better.

The world makes more sense when you remove the idea of a supernatural being who lives outside time and space.
Take the bomb blast in Karachi yesterday which killed around 40 and injured over 150 outside a mosque. They must be wondering where their god was? Why did ‘he’ allow it to happen? But those of us free from the shackles of organised religion understand that there was nothing ‘mysterious’ about it. It’s just ignorant, twisted individuals killing each other for no good reason. But they don’t deal in reason, or logic. Religion is no different than astrology or psychics (e.g the fraud psychic Sally).
A fool and his money are easily parted.

John, i cant see good in the church and have never been given an example of the great goodness the church has done!

I’m well aware of the of the feeling of community felt in the church, but mainly in rural communities. But you can get that in a mosque or synagogue.

I posed this question to a devoted member of the catholic church who I’m very close to.

If you were born in Malaysia would you be Catholic?

My point is, are we (I was baptised) catholic because we didnt have a choice?

The question is based on the fact that Malaysia; while a muslim country is extremely tolerant of other faiths.

Stephen mcElliott. Your response leads me to believe you read in the Mail on sat last, an article which mentions options, one being, condensing the church to exclude Catholics who use contraception and live ‘in sin’ ie outside marriage. Maybe try thinking outside the box…original like

John, your quite correct and I would ammend my post if I could.

Not all those opposed to the churches power and infuence are educated nor enlightened. Some people just like to bash their keyboards in a quite un educated and ignorant manner.

But please take note that in my experience, many catholics are unable to think for themselves and if a priest told them the sky was red, they’d be calling those insisting that it was blue ‘god haters’……

I had the Jehovahs witnesses in 4 times for coffee. I asked them to discuss their religion if they would listen to me. I also asked the respect me in my home and not use the word faith.

They dont call round anymore. …

This article is about the catholic church john, hence the direction of our vitriol

John, are you actually defending the chuch by saying that their not the worst?

Wow….that reminds me of a conversation I had with a family member who defended the magdaline nun’s by saying that they didn’t know any better!?!?! And that it was the family’s fault the girls were there in the first place…

Its attitudes like these that have the educated open minded citizens so vocal about their opposition to the churches overstayed welcome in our homes and minds.

I will debate the failings and faults of this very old cult on any forum, public or online.

And if an article I written about abuse in the home, or the 200 children who died in the care of the hse, I’ll give my opinion on that forum too

The weakest post on this article so far John. Very weak.

Thanks John for highlighting one of the weakest of the paltry excuses for the endemic child raping in the church. Sure the state was complicit, as were families. But what was the main reason for people acting so backward, so deluded, so unREASONABLE? They were all living in a harsh, oppressive catholic society. Take away the church, and you remove these problems.
Imagine a man knocking at the door, telling you to kick your daughter out onto the street for having a child out of wedlock. If it was a government employee, you would contact your solicitor before turfing her out. But when a clergyman requested such a horrible act, it wasn’t even questioned. THAT’S power!! They won’t try that any more.
To think that there are people on here, fighting for their right to be shackled, is pretty sad.

Well said John.

When you have your child baptized in the Catholic Church you are buying into an organization which still refuses to allow people in the third world to use condoms and abuses children. Sorry It’s not a harmless day out for the family where father trendy jokes with the grannies

Adam, so your in school, you’ve just opened a twitter account and one of your first posts is to associate homosexuals and child molesters?

Have been to many pro-life marches recently?

Paediphilia is not the same as homosexuality – the reasons for paedophlia are much more complex than what you were told

Ruairi, please recognise that there’s a difference between ‘your’ and ‘you’re’. You’ve mixed it up in almost all your posts. The benefits of staying at school.

Adam.
Please learn the difference between “homosexual” and “pedophile”.. It’s far more important than the difference between your and you’re..