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Dublin: 6 °C Thursday 23 May, 2013

Column: We should encourage Orange parades in the Republic

Orange Order parades have gained a bad name, but are genuine community events – and if we’re serious about inclusion we should be encouraging them, writes Ciarán Herlihy.

Ciarán Herlihy

Writing for TheJournal.ie last week, David McCann argued that Loyalists should work harder to appeal to all sections of  the community in the North.

Responding to McCann’s piece, Ciarán Herlihy suggests that we should try to be more inclusive of a minority who otherwise exist on the fringes of society in the Republic.

EMERGING IN 1795 from a cauldron of sectarian and agrarian conflict, the Loyal Orange Institution has courted controversy and curiosity from its outset.  Its pugnacious heritage and its self-perception as the custodian of Protestant and Unionist custom and culture, have caused the dominant tradition on this island to view it with suspicion and mistrust.

Nevertheless the last decade has seen an amelioration of cross community relations to a level unimaginable twenty years ago. The relative harmonious interaction between Protestant and Catholic, Nationalist and Unionist is testament to the assiduous endeavour of numerous individuals and organisations including the Orange Order. Despite this, the image of the Order implanted in the Irish public conscience remains negative and unfamiliar, notwithstanding the fact that as an All-Ireland organisation, some 44 of its halls are located in the Republic of Ireland.

Additionally, the 6000 members of the Order who parade annually in Rossnowlagh, Co Donegal are themselves illustrative of the Order’s presence in the Republic, particularly in the Border counties. The understated function of the Order in the scattered, rural Protestant communities of Monaghan, Cavan, Donegal and Leitrim appears analogous to that of the GAA in rural Ireland in providing a communal and cultural focal point. A number of recent initiatives, backed by the Irish government, have sought to engage this significant minority and further contribute to the harmonisation of cross community relations and perhaps now is the time to discard the ‘Bullies in Bowler Hats’ image so firmly embedded in the national psyche.

Community efforts

One such project is Cadolemo (the name derived from Cavan, Donegal, Leitrim and Monaghan) which is funded by the Department of Environment, Community and Local Government, established to promote community development programmes in the 44 Orange Halls that exist in the Republic. These Orange Halls are shared by both sides of the community in the Border Counties, and are particularly utilised in rural areas in the absence of other community facilities.

The work of Cadelemo ties in with a further programme undertaken by the Order. Stepping Towards Reconciliation in Positive Engagement or the STRIPE project which is funded by the EU’s Peace III Programme. Part of the funding received is used in supporting development officers to facilitate the cross community use of Orange Halls in the border counties. A further aspect of STRIPE is the establishment of an annual leadership programme whereby 30 young people from the Protestant community are involved in capacity building and cross-community activities.

The bridging of the traditional divide between the Border communities has been palpable. Drew Nelson, the Grand Secretary of the Orange Order states that Border Protestants had previously existed in “communal uncertainty of their survival as a viable self-sustaining community”. However as a result of these initiatives and increased interaction between both communities these fears have subsided. “The big difference I see is the growing confidence within the Border Protestant Community who would have been fearful and uncertain as to their future. I can see that fear has collapsed,” he says.

Whatever its primary role, be it faith, fraternity or friction, the activity most frequently associated with the Order is the parade. There is an abundance of marches annually with 20 or so being held in the Republic, the most notable being in Rossnowlagh. Undoubtedly some of these demonstrations are unnecessarily provocative and intimidating and it would be hard to find a resident of the Garvaghy Road willing to concede that the ‘Queen’s Highway’ extends to the tricolour decked pathways of their Nationalist demesne. The words “Drumcree” and “Ardoyne” are now more political phraseology than they are addresses.

Colour and pageantry

Nevertheless, the overwhelming majority of marches are peaceful, intra community cultural celebrations with colour and pageantry to rival our yearly commemoration of St Patrick. The marching season’s central role in the remembrance of the heritage of the Protestant community should ideally see a wider tolerance extended to the Orange walks in the Republic of Ireland. However, 1937 was the last year in which the Boyne Standard was ambled through the streets of Dublin.

According to the Dublin and Wicklow Lodge of the Orange Order, there are 14,000 Orangemen in the 26 counties so it would follow that Orange parades in the Republic are an opportunity to acknowledge the existence and cultural importance of this significant minority of Irish citizens. On the possibility of parades in Dublin, Nelson opined:  “It would not be for Northern Orangemen, it would be for Irish citizens, our members in the Republic. The challenge for Irish society is to accept the orange in the Tricolour and part of this, I believe, would be allowing Irish citizens who are Protestant and Orangemen to hold a parade in their capital city.”

The challenge of course is to do more than accept the orange side of the tricolour but to engage, include and celebrate it. As we embark on a decade of centenary celebrations commemorating the pivotal moments in the State’s history, the inclusion of the Orange tradition should form part of our historical reflection. Triumphalist sectarian sentiment has little place in modern Ireland and the defining period of Ireland’s history should be remembered accordingly.

Drew Nelson, in addressing the Seanad last July, quite aptly quoted the Easter Proclamation’s resolve to “cherish all children of the nation equally”. What better way to celebrate the events of 1916 than to hold ourselves to those words?

Ciarán Herlihy is a solicitor and writer who interviewed Drew Nelson in July.

Column: Surely Loyalist marchers want a better image than this?>

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Comments (116 Comments)

  • My old neighbour, Kevin Murray (RIP), wrote a hilarious piece about growing up in Lucan village – at one time there were Marches in the ‘South’. A Unionist family used to parade in Lucan but their next door neighbours used to try to drown them out with Catholic hymns. It made for quite a concert :D.

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  • No thank you .

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  • Mark 06/09/12 #

    How about we let them march when they grow up and stop acting like a bunch of imbeciles hell bent on winding people up.

    Erm we’ll probably be waiting around 800 years for that one.

    Nothing but prades of hate. Not welcome and not wanted.

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  • The Orange order have 2 goals. Retain the union and keep catholics down. Not a republican or any fan of the catholic church however we can’t support these bigots. They are a hateful, racist, violent, bigoted and simply nasty group. Not welcome here in the republic.

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  • Leinster says NOOOOOOO!

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  • The Orange Order is still in stuck in the mindset of the 17th Century. They have to realise that its now 2012 and not 1690. The Loyal Orders a slowly dying anyway they have made zero attempts to modernise and attract new younger people into their organisation. The Majority of young Protestants today have no reason to join a backward organisation like the Orange Order. Membership is dwindling on a yearly basis. As their pool of elderly bigots dies off so will the OO. In 20 years the Orange Order will be nearly extinct as positive forces in society try to eradicate the vile poison of sectarianism for good.

    And I say good riddance

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    • I’ve said it before, those who live in the past, do so because they have no future.

      I’m no nationalist but screw the orange order. They are worse that the kkk in my opinion, all they try do is antsgonise the fragile peace on this island. I hope I never see them marching in numbers I the south.

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  • Genuine community events?? Just like the orange march and band playing sectarian songs outside St Patricks Catholic Church in Belfast only a couple of weeks ago? The Orange Order is a Sectarian organisation similar to the Ku Klux Klan. Yet should we invite them to march also?? A St Patrick’s day parade is an inclusive parade for all. Can the same be said of an orange parade?? What a joke of an opinion piece.

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    • The ladies in the photo are from the Ligoneil Orange Lodge in Belfast. Considered one of the most intransigent lodges in Belfast. This lodge is the one that has been causing all the trouble in the Ardoyne. It traditionally stopped at every place on the road were the UVF killed people.

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    • Whoops hit reply. Too early. They are the same lodge that carried the banner honouring Joe Bratty. He shot dead a man, who was asleep in bed with his pregnant partner, just because he was a catholic. He was behind the Sean Graham bookies massacre, the Orange Order parade after that held up 5 finger salutes to the shop as they past, a finger for each victim.

      Even the non threatening photo is threatening when you no what these people get up to, condone and stick with.

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  • The “brains” behind this idea has obviously never witnessed an actual march. Absolute nonsense. Genuine community events whose back catalogue of songs,actions and intimidation celebrate the repression of another. I love the community spirit when they stop outside Catholic churches and bash out those cuddly old classics like ‘The Sash’ etc. Maybe Ciaran should go and run this idea past those cheeky funsters on the Shankill next July

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  • Do a poll and see the response it’ll get

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  • I don’t know what Orange Order you are talking about in this piece, but it sure as hell isn’t the Orange Order that we all know. The Orange Order is an outdated, bigoted organisation that exists solely to cause tension and it should be disbanded entirely.

    They still forbid Catholics from entering. They still ban members who attend the funerals of catholic police officers. They still purposely march in front of areas they are told not to just to get a rise out of nationalist communities. This is not an organisation for the 21st century and the author is either blind or chooses to ignore the threat to peace the OO poses.

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    • What about a march through the Glen of Imaal during artillery training? Or maybe Moyross?

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    • Having witnessed an OO parade in Glasgow, I can tell you that it is anything but about celebrating culture. Its about sticking two fingers up to the other community, the ‘if you don’t like us marching, tough’ attitude still exists. I commend the motive behind ‘Orangefest’ but its hard to see that rebranding of the parades image working.

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    • I lived in Lisburn till I was 14 . I have an Anglican father and a Catholic mother. I went to Fort Hill College, an integrated school. Sectarianism or politics were not concerns in our family

      I will never forget the sheer hatred that surrounded the entire month of July, the parades, the taunts of being a “Tim half breed” from grown men, professional men. The roar of Lambeg drums every night, the songs and chants, the families celebrating and enjoying the parade. Teenagers with (K.A.T – Kill All Tims) on their faces. The cheers on bonfire night at the mention of James McMahon, beaten to death with baseball bats in the centre of town. Not just a few at it but hundreds.

      Why do you think we left, how can anyone put up with that sheer savagery and evil everyday. Why would anyone want to propagate or spread that hatred. Removing it from Northern Ireland is the challenge and the only thing that can guarantee peace.

      Anyone who wants to bring that hatred down to Dublin or any part of the south must be genuinely mad.

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    • Sam 06/09/12 #

      Ciarán Herlihy would it be possible for you to reply to Jason Culligan’s comment? I would be and I am sure a lot of other people would be very interested in your’e reply? Thanks.

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  • What a ridiculous article… the orange order are just intent on causing trouble. Marching pass a catholic church banned by the commission simply to wind up nationalists and cause violence. Leave the journalism to Aaron McKenna you go back your day job

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  • What about a gay orange march?… it would be even more colourful..

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    • Do you think that nationalists would be allowed to march through mainly loyalist areas in the north be welcomed ?. These marches would not be allowed in London or manchester. And if the trouble associated with them was happening every year in mainland uk they would have been banned by now

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    • They’re allowed march in Glasgow and surrounding areas in the West of Scotland, backed by the police of course.

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    • Orange march yes. Gay march no.

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    • They march in Liverpool too

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    • Tony Horgan. I guess you are an Orange man, the Order’s hate gays and other “sinners” almost as much as they hate Catholics or anything Irish.

      May your daughter marry an Irish speaking Lesbian, whose mother is a nun. :)

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    • Don’t understand their problem with gay people, especially when it’s believed that king billy himself had an eye for the younger man.

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    • Yes, they do have a march in Liverpool and various areas around Lancashire. They’re generally hijacked by sad excuses of human beings like the EDL, who see it as a great excuse to get pissed in the local Wetherspoons, take out their flags and shout ‘No Surrender to the IRA’ in places like Stockport and Blackburn, all the while protesting against the supposed wiping out of the white community there.

      Scotland is a bit more complicated – same bigots that believe that they have a divine right to march wherever they like in communities that are still heavily influenced by the history of conflict in NI. Towns like Airdrie, Harthill and places in Ayrshire become complete warzones during ‘Orange Walk’ days. I know many people, including my own family members, who find the parades annoying in Scotland…not just because of their attitude, but because of the fact that the police have been deployed to protect these parades and councils like Glasgow City Council firmly believe in cutting off parts of the city to allow these marches. All of this costs money to the taxpayer. They would say the exact same for Republican marches (yup, they also march in Scotland).

      The march I witnessed in Glasgow had surveillance helicopters overhead for Chrissakes…

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    • Elrat 06/09/12 #

      Sure wasn’t King Billy of Orange gay!

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  • This is a great idea, after this we can have the Masons march round Dublin showing that they are not the bad guys we think they are, followed by the Bankers with a big flag stating that “it was not really them who put us all into poverty” Enda could lead the Saint Patrick’s Parade telling us all its all for our own good, and we should blame the other lot.
    Fact is this is a racist group of people that use this type of March to proclaim it rule over others, they are not good guys, it’s a tradition of “we have the power and you have none”, why not let the British Army parade around county Cork, I have no time for this type of nonsense, we all have to move on I know that, but so do they

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  • lets have an anti gay and neo nazi march aswell ciaran there minority groups.

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  • Why would we want a bigoted sectarian version of the KKK marching our streets?? They just incite hatred, they wouldn’t last too long marching on the streets of Dublin!!

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  • Pseudo-liberal nonsense. Fight sectarianism with solidarity, not by maintaining culturally exclusive organizations that promote bigotry.

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  • We should let them march through the streets of Dublin and everyone should greet them like the clown they are, with laughter, hysterical laughter and ridicule. They truly are like a sketch from minty python.

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  • Cultural relativism proponents: What will they say next?!

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  • Those poor ol craters would march to marks and sparks …..

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  • Thought provoking article and while I wholeheartedly agree with cherishing all citizens of the state equally, I do hold issue with the fact that the Orange Order appear to celebrate an ancient military victory and slaughter of their enemies – catholics.

    Parades are far from the way forward as all they serve to do is divide. Lets find another means – the last thing anybody wants is another ‘love ulster’ debacle like we had in Dublin some years back.

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    • It was the English catholic king james that was defeated at the battle of the boyne, and the orange orders little rule on orange men not being allowed to marry Catholics, well William of orange was his son in law who was married to his daughter who was a catholic

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  • Over my dead carcass…

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  • “We should encourage Orange parades in the Republi”c – we might aswell encourage the Norwegians to let Anders Behring Breivik out of jail and free in the irish countryside too – NONSENSE

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  • Welcome people who celebrate the slaughter of Irish people, and the plantation of Ulster?
    No.
    They are a bigoted organisation.
    They throw stones and spit at Catholic school children who have to walk through Protestant areas on their way to and from school.

    I’m sure they have some decent members, but the hierarchy are inherently full of hate towards anyone who isn’t one of them.

    As we have seen from the most recent videos, they bring their own children to their illegal parades, so it’s quite obvious that they wish to indoctrinate their kids, and see this hatred continue for generations to come.

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  • Hold on while I turn my watch back 322 years?

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  • I’d have a bit more time for this article if the LOL wasn’t maintaining a conspicuous silence over the current “let us march where and when we like or we’ll riot” stance from loyalist groups at the moment.

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  • Let’s not forget these are the same people who every year stick an irish jersey and balaclava onto big bonfires , strap Irish flags all over it and then reserve the loudest cheer for when it goes up in flames

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  • I’ll discard my “bullies in bowler hats” view when they stop behaving like bullies in bowler hats. Their triumphalism and antagonism of nationalist communities has to stop. Holding fingers up to signify how many Catholics were murdered at a certain spot has to stop. The playing of racist songs has to stop. Their anti-catholic doctrine has to stop. Their anti-gay doctrine has to stop. Banning members from attending catholic weddings and funerals has to stop. Maybe then, they will be looked at as not a vile throwback to the past, but a modern movement with more to give society than just hatred and racism.

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  • yes leave them march over the cliffs of moher

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  • Should we invite the BNP to march here too? Absolutely ludicrous article written by someone who clearly has no idea of the reality on the ground in NI.

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  • No way. If they cannot act with respect towards their neighbours in their own country, then there is no point in having them in the Republic.

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  • This article is ridiculous, in many ways, but the image it creates of the Orange Order is misleading and ignores the sectarianism that lies at the heart of that movement. In what world is the Orange Order parade similar to a
    St. Patricks day parade? Have you even read the Orange Orders guiding principles? We are an inferior people, in their eyes. Have you heard the sectarian bile often spouted by its leadership? In the world of Unicorns and fairies this might pass for journalism, but in the real world this is pure fiction, designed to humanise and condone a vile sectarian body, which routinely ignores the wishes of a minority, so as to triumphantly parade through areas where they are not wanted. They refuse to engage with many northern nationalist community, but you want us to befriend them, and give credibility to their backward logic? You’ve suggested letting the Orange Order into our society, but why should we? Unionism is welcome, so why do we need sectarianism and anti-Irish thinking? How would Ireland benefit from having people parading their Britishness in our faces, while singing songs about bathing in catholic blood? I wonder if you have REALLY thought about this in the cold light of day? The ramifications of being willingly trodden upon would be enormous, and may wake the type of anger this government fear more than anything else. This piece is based on a ridiculous, well removed from reality, logic. It’s PC nonsense gone mad, which needs to be resisted and called out for what it is.

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  • The Orange order were allowed March in Dublin back in 2006 in the Love Ulster Parade. The riot in response was a little over d top (Charlie Bird got hit by a Brick) but at d same time think every Irish person felt letting d Orange order march in Dublin was completely wrong. the fact Bertie was d taoiseach at d time and was in favour of it says it all really. The “troubles” are still far too recent to simply brush aside. plenty of more diverse cultures exist in ireland to be celebrated who are glad to be Irish who number more than 14000. Allowing a group to March who would have us return to being ruled by England is Treason as they are saying we shouldnt exist as a country. all in favour of freedom speech but draw d line at bigotry, intimidation and incitement to violence. Im not a huge republican but I am a proud Irishman.

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  • To use the word parade is a misnomer. They are officially called demonstrations by the order, which kind of illustrates the spirit of these events

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  • Do the Orange men and women recognise the orange in the tricolour?My impression, and I could be wrong, would be orange marches waving union jacks, with no tricolours in sight.

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  • the oo hate the republic, its land and its ppl, maybe we cud invite the nazis and kkk along aswell for the craic… keep them off our soil….

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    • as an orange man who grew up in co.donegal im not suprised by the level of sectarian hatred being showen to the OO on here..truth is that prods are not equal in the republic and will always be persecuted and so will never be allowed a parade in Dublin. Reading the comments on here reminds me why i left the republic, its a sectarian dump.

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    • A bit rich coming from an orangeman. If I were to die now you wouldn’t be allowed come to my funeral by the OO because I’m as catholic. Or marry me, because I’m a catholic and because the OO hate gays too. Glad you left Ireland for the 19th century.

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  • Either the Author doesn’t know what the Orange order is or just a good troll.

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  • is this a joke? no to sectarian marches.

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  • The article sounds like a “Far off in the Future Fantasy ” and fails to represent the reality on the ground . At this time “marches ” with flags and drums can only really be viewed as “militaristic “events — not remotely reflective of anything like peaceful ,respectful recognition of others . They are a form of muscle flexing exhibitionism and a threat veiled as a cultural right .They represent the worst aspect of bullying and triumphalism . At this time they must be seen as confrontational . Perhaps if they changed the format to sitting down at a summer picnic with music then the motives could be trusted .

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  • “Culture” being used as an excuse to legitimise a hate society. Terrific!

    I had a friend at school who was fascinated by Nazi regalia, including the original Brownshirt stuff.

    My suggestion: as Hitler had the Brownshirts (SA) snuffed and they have been inactive for over 70 years, it would be more legitimate to revive Brownshirt marches and their songs and other “cultural” attributes (volkische approved activities) than to pretend the Orange Order has anything to do with culture.

    I did learn though, that lots of public money is being spent on this outfit. Incredible! Like giving public money for the cultural activities of neo-Nazis or the Maoist revival. Should be stopped at once.

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  • It strikes me the oo described by ciaran is very different to that experienced by many of those who have commented. Would be interesting to hear from any oo members on any attempts to address the perceived biggotry internally. Is there a voice for the warm and fuzzy community organisation ciaran had described inside the oo?

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  • Broin 06/09/12 #

    @ Ciarán Herlihy have you ever been to an Orange Order march? I’ve been to Drumcree twice due to work, which required me to be on the opposite side of the police line. Very anti-Irish, engrained bigotry, and not just the ballads. A line has to be drawn with multiculturalism – it’s akin to asking victims of the holocaust – in these times of renewed sensitivity and political correctness, we would appreciate it if you allowed the local hate group to remind you why it hates you!

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  • pure nonsense, they don’t want to be accepted by us in the republic, cos they look down on all taigs, they burn the tri colour on the 11th , a few years back they had slogans about Mickey Boo,( a young chap they kicked to death) burnin on their fires. just look at the trouble this week, the order should have being disbanded when the ira were- this article is like the dribble the indo and eoghan harris, kevin myers write . i read the journal to get away from the propaganda. look what they did to kids going to holy cross school, the quinn brothers and many others.

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  • Hmm so we might as well allow and celebrate the KKK, Combat 18 and the Hitler youth if we are going to consider the Orange Order marching in the South since they all share the same bigoted views.

    What an idiotic suggestion, like the IRA the OO should be disbanded in the name of peace. While they exist there will never be progressive reform.

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  • if we welcome orange men in the republic, we’d just be insulting the men who died for this country and condoning racism and bigotry

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  • This the author of this piece live in magical pixie fairy land? The Orange Order is a group founded on racism, no different to Combat 18 or the KKK. If there truly are people within the organisation who wish for peaceful coexistence, which I doubt there are, then what’s to stop them founding a seperate order free from a history steeped in ethnic hatered.

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  • How can an organisation which prohibits any catholic from joining based on their religious beliefs be “bridging the divide”? That’s like praising a whites only club in apartheid for “bridging a divide”.

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  • sparky 06/09/12 #

    Bloody shit stirrers! All they want to do is come down to the republic march through and wait for people of the republic to more than likely attack them in which case they’ll proclaim innocence

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  • I never realised the Orange Order thought so highly of the tricolour. I look forward to seeing them march under it, at a parade in which all minorities who have a share in this nation are invited to march.

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    • On a second reading, perhaps the sarcasm doesn’t shine through as well as I had intended…

      The Orange Order as it currently presents itself will obviously not march under a tricolour, are entirely against the inclusive message it embodies, and is incapable of respecting any legitimate minority groups.

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  • Is the author of this article Josef Goebbels in disguise? The Orange Order march in Rossnowlagh because a senior Donegal member owns most of the land along the route. As for the rest of their lodges activity in the south, they do not set out to cause offence or rub their neighbours noses in it as they have to live and work alongside their Catholic neighbours the remaining days of the year. It is only when you encounter the actions of their members, blood and thunder kick the Pope bands and beer guzzling supporters you will see the mask slip.

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  • Get a grip it’s a march for bigots

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  • NO

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  • Let the march, explain what they march about and their colours will shine through!

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  • get out of it!!!!!!

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  • louise 06/09/12 #

    Ehhh NO!!!

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  • I hear the cliffs of moher are good around the 12th

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  • I was hoping this piece could survive beyond mild scrutiny so to create a real debate but alas it fails miserably to address any kind of the sectarianism endemic in the Orange Order. I could shoot holes the size of Lambeg Drums in every apparent counter point the author makes but really, what would be the use – for such a poor attempt at persuasion it’s not going to change anyone’s mind.

    I will try this however – can we stop this lazy St. Patrick versus Orange-ism comparison that doesn’t exist in our true consciousness. Patrick wasn’t a Catholic and wasn’t Irish – for crying out loud one of the foremost experts on his history is Ian Paisley! If you wanted a one liner on how tired the above article is it’s borne right here.

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    • @St Ultan – the historical truth is far more complex, I agree. My Nana, Ranelagh-born and bred, came from a proudly Catholic Unionist family. Her 3 brothers were in WW1, her 3 sisters went to work in Sir Howard Grubb’s munitions factory in England.

      I suspect that if some Journal readers did a bit of genealogical digging they may find similar complex backgrounds, not always freely talked about.

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  • ?

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  • Let them march and then the rest of us could hurl oranges at them, it being an Orange parade….

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  • We could phase them in slowly and by degrees…soften us up first with other ‘cultural’ nostalgia of the same ilk…like the KKK and Hitler Youth.

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  • would they sing this for us,

    After Aughrim’s great disaster
    When the foe in sooth was master
    Twas you that first rushed in and swam
    The Shannon’s fearful flood
    And through Slieve Bloom’s dark passes
    You wove your gallowglasses
    Although the hungry Saxon wolves
    Were howling for our blood

    And as you crossed Tipp’rary
    You rised the Clann O’Leary
    And drove a creach before them
    As their horsemen onward came
    Through flood and light we gored them
    As with our swords and spears we bored them
    Ah, but Sean O Duibhir an Ghleanna
    We were worsted in the game

    Long, long we kept the hillside
    Our couch hard by the rill-side
    The sturdy knotted oaken bough
    Our curtain overhead
    The summer’s blaze we scoffed at
    The winter snows we laughed at
    And trusted in our long steel swords
    To win us daily bread

    Till the Dutchman’s troops came round us
    With fire and sword they bound us
    They fired the woods and mountains
    Till the very clouds were flame
    Yet our sharped swords cut through them
    In their very hearts we hewed them
    Ah, but Sean O Duibhir an Ghleanna
    We were worsted in the game

    Here’s a health to your and my king
    To the monarch of our liking
    And to Sarsfield underneath whose flag
    We’ll cast once more a chance
    For the morning dawn will wing us
    Across the seas and bring us
    To take our stand and wield a brand
    Among the sons of France

    And though we part in sorrow
    Still Sean O Duibhir an Ghleanna
    Our cry is, God save Ireland
    And pour blessings on her name
    May her sons be true and needed
    May they never feel as we did
    Ah, but Sean O Duibhir an Ghleanna
    We were worsted in the game

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  • Keep them well away

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  • Comments?

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  • I think I would allow it if it ended with a skinny dip for them
    All, off the cliffs of moher. No
    Place for backward bigots in the south!

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  • They say “accept the orange in the tri-colour” but they dont accept the tri-colour.

    C’mon like

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  • what exactly are the objectives of the orange order. is it to continually bring up past victories against the hordes of native Irish vis a ve “the battle of the boyne”. do they want the same situation like they have in the north with all Protestants supporting the union of Great Britain including Ireland and all Catholics automatically supporting nationalists. Orange Order i have news for ye wolf tone was not catholic Washington was not Catholic. Despite what ye might think there is no vast plot against Protestants down here. perhaps ye should come out of yere bunkers for a while and see what horrors await ye in the papist state

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  • Let everyone march or let no one march.

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  • Thank god I am not religious!

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  • Martin both sides have murdered their fellow man because they believed that they were right and the ‘others’ were wrong. We are not always objective even when we try to be.

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  • Rob 06/09/12 #

    ok if we take this up a level from the initial reaction – i guess the question posed is whether it might be beneficial to us all to encourage a minority to express themselves freely – and therefore remove some of the taboo surrounding the OO. Same way as for example with gay parades – its not that i agree or disagree with gay people any more than any other person – but they march because they have years of repression to get off their chests.

    i’m really not sure the same applies to the OO. seems to me that they march to remember a time long ago when they had more power – and broadly speaking the march helps them reinforce this to us catholics. i dont see any purpose in this and i do think the closest comparision is to the KKK.

    that said – i do think its about time that the catholics get over it too. this is ancient history. why all the anger about the parades – why not just do what we do to almost every other thing that comes our way in this country – bit of a tut – and a comment that those lot have really lost the run of themselves!

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    • A taboo surrounding Orange Order. That makes them sound like they are just a parading band.

      The irony of comparing an Orange Order March to a Gay Pride march is delicious. The one group that the Order despises more than Catholics is gays.

      You call it ancient history. Is this Summer, ancient history to you? Is this week ancient history to you.

      The Orange Order are worse than the Klan. I have never heard of the Klan having 3000 marches a year in a small area with just over a million people. Do the Klan march in thousands through black areas, stopping to celebrate and play hate songs at spots where they killed people.

      Welcome to the modern face of the Orange Order. They’ve come a long way from even 10 years ago but they are still incompatible with a modern society, where all are equal before the law.

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    • Rob 06/09/12 #

      ST my point re the ancient history i guess is more just about controlling what we can. In my opinion they march primarily because they are told not to and because they know it pisses people off!

      if we stop getting so angry about it (and i do think we get overly excited) i would almost guarantee they stop marching!

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    • It’s easy to see Rob and Ciaran you have never witnessed in the flesh a actual orange parade. A more intimidating or scary experience you could not imagine. Think a large group of thugs spewing their anti catholic, anti Irish vitriol fueled by alcohol and the incessant thump thump of the lambeg drum and the well rehearsed music of the orange band. Would you just emit a polite tut tut if a few of these “gentlemen” decided to use your front garden as a toilet (and I’m not talking watering flowers) if you get my meaning. Try objecting and you are treated to a barrage of abuse and intimidation while police turn a blind eye. “Cultural” events like this we don’t need anywhere in Ireland. Orange lodges should all be disbanded and treated as an illegal organisation until they remove the bigotry and sectarianism from their midst. But then the reason for their very existence would be taken away so they would have no other purpose – finito!

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  • I have always been amazed how one side can be so right and another so wrong. The Republic is an open-minded society that welcomes informed debate and is famed for its hundred thousand welcomes.

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    • Most people in the Republic, Most people in Northern Ireland, most people in Britain see the Orange Order for the bigots they are.

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    • Are you serious? Informed debate with the likes of the Orange Order? That is genuinely one of the funniest things I have ever read here. You are right, for the most part, the Republic is a very open minded society but just because we are doesn’t mean we should give the likes of the OO a voice. There are some thing we can’t forget because the OO constantly tries to remind people of it. So why should they be entitled to anything, especially freedom of speech in the south, that many Irishmen died for.

      As regards the hundred thousand welcome, all the OO are welcome to are a hundred thousand piss off back to 18th century.

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    • Olaf, dying for something does not make it right.

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    • The Orange Order is a sectarian institution whose sole agenda is the restoration of the British empire. Ireland first, next the world. Hatred of Catholics is just a tool towards that end. Hate criminals are not welcome here.

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    • Trying to stir the pot again Patrick? You’re a disgrace with your butcher’s apron icon. What message are you really trying to send here? We all know what the Orange Order is about. Why don’t you go visit Israel and promote Aryan superiority, or better yet, advertise the inclusiveness of the KKK in Harlem or Atlanta.

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    • You’re on your own, the only other topic guaranteed to get a similar response are the traveling community. Welcome to the republic of equals!

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  • Religion (Roman Catholicsm) and nationalism the pillars of this corrupt republic. Th people accepted their ‘religion’ and their ‘history’ without question. How could one question the tenets of the one true and apostolic church or the ‘facts’ of ‘Irish history’? The monolithic status of ‘the church’ is crumbling but the ‘history’ is still ingrained in the receptive minds of the innocents who still believe that all others are bigots except themselves.

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    • That’s all good and well except that republicanism has a long tradition of being on the left, promoting equality whereas Loyalism and Orangeism have direct connections to the far right. I know not every Republican is an egalitarian nor every Unionist a bigot but the traditions are not the same!

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  • I’m in two minds about this.I would be open to Southern Orangemen marching through Dublin.They choose to live here when they could easily hop the border.I would take that as an indication that they are not hostile to us or our country.
    However,no Northern lodges and absolutely positively no Scottish lodges otherwise it’s condemned to failure.

    On the other hand,even the smallest bit of unrest will be used against us…

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  • as an orange man who grew up in co.donegal im not suprised by the level of secterian hatred showen towards the OO on this page. Prodestants have never been equal in the south and will never be allowed a parade in Dublin. Reading these comments reminds me why i left the R.O.I., ITS A SECTERIAN DUMP, and always will be

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  • Maybe in 50 years we can have an objective discussion on this but judging by the majority of the comments I’m sensing it may be too soon for us down here.

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