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Dublin: 10 °C Wednesday 22 May, 2013

Column: So the Pope has joined Twitter. What will he learn there?

Social media is all about debate and dissent, writes Fr Tony Flannery – so perhaps it can teach the Vatican a lesson.

Tony Flannery

WE ARE INFORMED that Pope Benedict has begun to tweet. Seeing the use that some celebrities and sports people make of their tweets, maybe we can now expect to get the real story of the Butler and Vatileaks.  But I won’t hold my breath. There is something incongruous about the eighty-five-year-old, serious minded and traditional academic attempting to engage in the world of today’s youth. I hope he doesn’t get completely carried away and begin to read the normal type of exchange that goes on in this Twitter world.

Joseph Ratzinger, in his early days as a priest, was a forward-thinking liberal. This all changed, those who know him tell us, during the summer of 1968, when the student revolutions swept the universities around Europe. As a lecturer in a German university he was so shocked by what he saw and heard that he changed, and became the strict law enforcer that we have known him to be for many years now in the Church. During his time as head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, and later as Pope, the Catholic Church had reverted back to a style of governance more suited to the early to middle nineteenth century than to our modern age. Decision-making has become centralised in the Vatican, and dissent is being snuffed out in the most dictatorial fashion.

Church decline

A good example of this, which is currently in the news due to the dismissal of a number of priests, is the question of the ordination of women to the priesthood.  This has been a thorny subject in most Christian Churches for some years now. The reformed Churches have mostly attempted to deal with it, and in spite of a great deal of opposition, have made real headway. But the Catholic Church, under John Paul ll and Benedict have gone the other way.

They have declared that because Christ only chose men as his apostles the Church is bound by this, and cannot ever ordain any woman to the priesthood. They have made this an article of faith, some authorities even suggesting that it is an infallible teaching. And they have stated that, not only is it not possible, but it cannot even be discussed. (I wonder how that type of attitude will go down in the Twitter world!?) Now we are witnessing an increasing number of bishops, priests and religious being dismissed, and even excommunicated, because they have spoken up in favour of the ordination of women.

Suppression

I am a Redemptorist priest, and there is a story in our group that some time ago an old priest was helping a young, newly ordained, man to write his sermon.  The young man gave his mentor the text he had prepared.  As the mentor went through it he wrote comments in the margin. At one point the comment read: “Argument weak here; shout loud!”  The Vatican position on this issue is somewhat similar. Their argument against the ordination of women is very weak, indeed it has been almost totally discredited by the Bible scholars, and they are terrified of the problems and difficulties that would arise if they allowed it to be openly discussed, so they come down with a heavy hand on anyone who dares mention it in public.

But in reality they are a very enclosed, and somewhat arrogant, group in the Vatican, who do not realise that many of their attitudes are redolent of centuries past. (Cardinal Martini, in his message from the grave, said that they were two hundred years behind the times; some of us think he was being too kind!) They do not realise that trying to suppress ideas and discussion is no longer possible with modern communications.  Maybe, just maybe, the Pope’s excursion into Twitter will teach him that. A consummation devoutly to be wished, as the Bard said many years ago.

Tony Flannery is a member of The Association of Catholic Priests (ACP). The ACP is an association for Catholic priests who wish to have a forum and a voice to reflect, discuss and comment on issues affecting the Irish Church and society today.

More: Pope joins Twitter at @pontifex – but won’t tweet until next week>

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Comments (95 Comments)

  • Liam 10/12/12 #

    Social media is indeed about debate and dissent, which is good for everyone, something the Vatican does not like, it is unlikely the pope will interact with people who put constructive criticism towards him, thereby making a twitter account somewhat meaningless.

    Reply
    • The church doesn’t do free speech. This account I suspect will be more about preaching and and answering well censored questions. Yawn.

      Reply
    • Both of ye are right. What will we learn? Very little I suspect!

      I have some respect for this Pope as a scholar and as a man who appears to have a deep spirituality. I do not think he wanted the papacy at all.

      On the other hand I have no respect for how he has stewarded the church, how he has dealt (not dealt) thoroughly with child abuse and how the church treats half its population i.e. women. I won’t even say anything about how they treat other minorities as I don’t want a headache first thing on a Monday!

      Reply
  • “Argument weak here, shout louder” is the response of all groups ( Church, Government etc ) to any kind of forward thinking, this is a great article & should be read by by all. Well done for posting it.

    Reply
  • Well the Pope isn’t following any other accounts apart from his own ones – looks like a case of papal unfollowbility to me…

    He’ll be fine as long as he never checks his mentions really, and considering his “team” will be tweeting on his behalf he’s not likely to ever read anything that criticises or upsets him.

    Most likely the account will end up tweeting things like which saint’s day it is, along with loads of nebulous vaguely inspiration “spiritual” messages. Basically Deepak Chopra in a silly hat.

    Reply
  • What’s going on Ted?

    Reply
  • I really want to know does fex in @pontifex mean hat?

    Reply
  • Maybe he will learn that times move on. People are gay,have abortions,have sex outside marriage,and people don’t need to follow catholic cult ireland,and that none of the above is the churches business only their own.

    Reply
  • What will he learn on Twitter??? Well, that Piers Morgan is a bo***x for 1…

    Reply
  • Hopefully he learns creationism is ridiculous, contraception does help with preventing the spread of sti’s and HIV and that there’s nothing wrong with same sex marriage just to name a few!

    Reply
  • Paddy: To suggest that Catholic church rape, torture and slavery were the influence of society on ‘weak’ individuals ignores the fundamental fact that the social conditions in Ireland facilitated this kind of abuse of power AND that the Ireland that was envisioned and fashioned following the 1937 Constitution was a reflection of ‘Catholic morality’ imposed on an impoverished post -colonial populace who knew no better. The Catholic Church had absolute power in the making of the social order. It abused this power and did its best to cover it up. This is not some minor ‘mistake’ this is morally outrageous behaviour from those who claimed to speak with authority on moral issues. But yes, I’m sure the church will find new, poorer more desperate victims in other parts of the world, on whom to impose its authoritarian bullying.

    Reply
  • Fair play to Paddy Scully, cant say I agree with his comments, but he has held his own in this discussion and has not resorted to cheap digs and petty rhetoric, balanced and dignified I would say. Thanks made the article all the more interesting.

    Reply
  • Where were the men when Christ was dying on the cross? Off denying him or counting their pieces of silver. It was the women plus John (the nice guy) who stuck with him. Surely an indication that women should be priests.

    Reply
  • Mjhint 10/12/12 #

    @Paddy. If the rcc is a great source of science can you direct me to its finding on condoms increasing the AIDs virus in Africa.

    Reply
  • Its just another way to spread their fables to the sheeple.

    Reply
  • I wonder how many people will get arrested for giving him abuse, glad I’m not in the U.K or Russia

    Reply
  • Paddy : To suggest that Catholic church rape, torture and slavery were the influence of society on ‘weak’ individuals ignores the fundamental fact that the social conditions in Ireland facilitated this kind of abuse of power AND that the Ireland that was envisioned and fashioned following the 1937 Constitution was a reflection of ‘Catholic morality’ imposed on an impoverished post -colonial populace who knew no better. The Catholic Church had absolute power in the making of the social order. It abused this power and did its best to cover it up. This is not some minor ‘mistake’ this is morally outrageous behaviour from those who claimed to speak with authority on moral issues. But yes, I’m sure the church will find new, poorer more desperate victims in other parts of the world, on whom to impose its authoritarian bullying.

    Reply
  • i don’t follow his church so why the hell would i follow him on twitter? sure he’s stark raving bonkers and so is the catholic church!! they’re all a dying breed!!

    Reply
  • Mjhint 10/12/12 #

    Kevin while I have read the article I believe that condom use will help prevent the spread of aids & not actually add to the problem. I have also read some of what the rcc have said to their flock in Africa & it is utter rubbish.

    Reply
    • I don’t disagree I just have a problem with the Catholicism is the enemy of science statements .

      My own thinking on the subject is more in line with Father Joe Maier a priest who works with HIV/AIDS sufferers in Asia who when asked about condoms said:
      “We damn well better tell them to use condoms! Not only that, we better tell them the whys and the hows and the whens. … What a sin! What an effing Catholic sin to look the other way, to pretend this s**t ain’t gonna happen if we don’t say so. “

      Reply
  • please! we are talking about gods representive on earth here…the ex nazi youth…

    Reply
  • This priest is quite an arrogant guy. He says most biblical scholars reject the arguments against women priests . This is clearly not so although he may wish it were otherwise . Catholic teaching is not decided by “scholars” and well he knows it.The Irish church had suffered from too little authority
    expressed on theological and liturgical matters . Just look at the celebration of mass in most churches . It is banal, puerile and spiritually deadening with some priests thinking it is all about them and their delivery . Sometimes I think “am I in mass or the Father Sullivan show ?”

    Reply
    • Actually I think he meant to say Roman Catholic and Orthodox scholars. Other christian denominations including anglicanism, quakers and unitarians have no problem with ordaining women at all. Those denominations are keen to evolve and embrace different ideas into their faith.

      Reply
    • The Irish Catholic church abused its authority on account of the child rape and the cover up of child rape, and the alleged torture and enslavement of women in Magdalene laundries (to name but two). And look at the ridiculous lengths its anti-abortion stance has been taken to – when a miscarrying woman is refused an Dand C and might lose her womb, never mind her life. It lost its moral authority through abuse of power not because of the quality of the mass!

      Reply
    • Wasnt it power crazed men that decided which gospels made it into the bible in the first place. They chose the gospels best suited for their purposes and women were not on that agenda. Maybe they even edited those gospels – shock! People blindly following the words of their choice from the bible!

      Sure kids “who curses his father or mother must be put to death” Exodus 21:17 – tell that to the liberals. No slapping allowed, remember :)

      Reply
    • I think there was a Mary Magdelene gospel.

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    • Lisa what’s with the big chip on ur shoulder.. All the abuse is very well documented … We know ok!!

      Reply
  • Referring to abuse is a ruse by those who lack argument? Seriously? So child rape, torture and slavery of women in Magdalene laundries etc are not actually moral outrages? ….. So let’s get this straight – when the Pope was talking on the God phone to his invisible man in the sky, the omnipotent, omnipresent one thought to make a ruling on what goes into or comes out of my uterus, but not a word about the treatment of Magdalene women? What did he say ‘Listen, I know some of the lads enjoy a bit of child raping now and again, but if any of them get caught, make sure you cover it up. This kind of scandal is really bad for my public image’?

    Reply
  • Silly question really , but is twitter spelt with a capital T??? Sorry Poppa! Should warn u that Geldof is planning to sue u ! Why? Well, I’m told he was the original ‘Ratsinnger!’….. ( bump dish).

    Reply
  • I think the Catholic Church know better than to listen to the rubbish that is written on twitter on a daily basis.

    Reply
  • The Catholic Church is not like other Religious organisations that need to explain what they do or don’t do based on a historic text. It has the authority to ordain women priests when it decides to do so

    Reply
  • Is is very sad to see (Fr.) Tony, himself an advocate for youth, having another go at the church he has a serious commitment to. The wolf lies down with the sheep!

    Reply
    • Maybe your stuck in a time warp too Paddy? This is Ireland 2012 90% of us Welcome people challenging institutions such as the Catholic Church. It’s how society learns and grows.

      Reply
    • As an atheist I would rather see more Fr.Tony’s in this world, it would make discussion with Catholic’s more palatable and enjoyable, instead of every counter-argument beginning with ‘well it says so in the good book….’ To quote Usura, ‘Open Your Mind’. I enjoyed this article and would like to see more from the author in future.

      Reply
    • @ Paddy Fagan
      Hi Paddy, I’m afraid, contrary to popular belief, the church is one of the best informed institutions in the world. It has the most comprehensive set of relationships with the nations of the world through it diplomatic core, and it constantly keeps abreast of science and technology. This is vital and necessary if it is to do its job of interpreting its timeless and unchanging message to the world. The world itself is very fickle, and changes its mind in a whim. The church is not only current, but has a very clear view of our futures and that of all mankind, based on our own personal decisions and the grace of God.
      Any individual is free to abuse their freedom, but a catholic priest should know and support the Pope and the churches teaching. If he does not do so, then he is damaging the very people he is meant to guide and protect. The public nature of the authors disagreement, despite all efforts to facilitate his ministry, is disgraceful, and loaded with self importance

      Reply
    • @ Gaius Gracchus
      It is true ‘Gaius’, any atheist should enjoy Fr. Tony, as the result of his flawed theology is increased dissent, an opportunity for the disillusioned. I might suggest Usura right back at you. But at least an atheist is clear, in a fashion, what you are about, some of our ACP supporters seem a little confused in this respect. To a catholic the Pope is Christs representative in the church, its head, our father and Servant. We expect criticism from everywhere, but look for loyalty from our priests

      Reply
    • Paddy I would much rather a church where moral issues are discussed and debated openly than one where nuns who spend their time helping the poor and needy are condemned as radical feminists.

      Reply
    • If the church is so very well informed, Paddy. Why did it decide to cover up the behaviour of the child raping priests instead of purging the organisations of this kind of behaviour? Why did it allow the enslavement and torture of women it defined as ‘fallen’ in Magdalene laundries? Is this what Christ would have done? If it is so very well informed, why has it not noticed that the vast majority of Irish people have begun to reject its teachings and its authority?

      Reply
    • @ Kevin Elliott
      Hi Kevin, if they are behaving as radical feminists, instead of brides of Christ and his church, as their vocation suggests, then I expect their Bishop to act accordingly. Far too many religious have listened to the clamour of the aggressive secularist, and taken on themselves the relativistic thinking so popular today. The church on the other hand holds that there are Truths, and these are beautiful and timeless

      Reply
    • I think Paddy we have seen who the wolf is over the last twenty years’ reports, and the suppression of debate, evasion of collective responsibility, offloading of its ‘penance’ onto hard-pressed and innocent tax-payers, and general lip-service only to to the tenets of the man whom its predecessor(the Jerusalem temple of the Sanherdin)butchered for heresy.
      Had he come back a little later he would have been Inquisitioned and burned(ceremoniously).
      I think the term is ‘whited sepulchre’. Your ‘pope’ sits where Caiaphas sat, full of the same self-certainty, and still protecting the institution and its temporal power over the interests of the poor it has hypnotised with liturgical overcoats of obfuscation on a quite simple message of egalitarianism and mutual interdependence. Against this lateral teaching the institution maintains its pyramid of priestcraft, subterfuge and SELF-worship.

      Reply
    • @ Paddy Scully The Catholic Church ‘keeps abreast of science and technology’? Tell that to Galileo Galilei.

      Reply
    • @ Lisa O’Rourke Scott
      Well Lisa, the churches slowness in getting to grips with the scandals, is indeed its blackest hour of recent times, and it probably will make more mistakes in the future. I have no doubt that many individuals within the church will do great wrongs as that is human nature. However, those who disagree/dislike the church should remember that the disorder in the church is no more or less than the rest of society, and the new practices in the church make it a safer place than any other equivalent in today’s society.
      If all of Ireland was to reject Christ, I don’t think Christ would change his mind. We are far too introspective at times, the Catholic Church is growing fast throughout the world, even if Ireland is declining.

      Reply
    • @Paddy

      All ‘christ’ means is the anointed one, in that the high priest of the temple was the only one allowed to be anointed with the ‘sacred’ oil(chrism).
      JC’s heresy was allowing the poor to call him the ‘true temple leader’, ‘the anointed one’(pope of the day).
      Caiaphas was as miffed as Joe Ratzinger would be if Madonna said she was the real Virgin Mary. Not kosher.

      Too introspective?
      Did the man not say that the Kingdom was within?
      Make up one of your minds.

      Reply
    • @ Damien Flinter
      We do refer to the pope as “Christs vicar on earth”, but we do not see him as Christ. Not to be mixed up with when they act “in persons Christi”, which is special.
      When I used “introspective” I meant we need to look at the universal church, not just the local. I’m glad to say the message of Christ is as popular as ever around the world, even if Europe wants to disown its roots.

      Reply
    • I think you are away with Lewis Carrol there.

      ‘When I used “introspective” I meant we need to look at the universal church..’.

      The global church has been perpetrating and covering up child abuse, and shifting the criminal perverts from one jurisdiction to another, for centuries. It has also been aiding and abetting racist imperial European expansions and cruelties against civilised, humane and generous peoples across the globe in order to enslave and exploit them.
      It is nothing new, this recent litany of abusive crime, it is embedded in its oxymoronic corruptions of language.

      Universal?Have ye branches on Mars too?
      The message of the wandering rabbi who hung out with fishermen, hookers, lepers and paupers, and said give up all you own to the poor doesn’t seem to have trickled up as far as the luxury-bound Vatican princes who deified him out of reach before airbrushing his egalitarian fables/parables into a legalistic liturgical hammer of canon law to forge the Roman empire a brass halo.
      Use your god-given brain. Just in case there is any truth in that story you might be asked what you did with the talent you were given gratis at birth.

      Reply
    • @ Damien Flinter
      I hope you realise Damien that those who lack argument these days always refer to the church based abuse, as a way of finishing the discussion. I already addressed this above.
      You really need to get a grip on your rhetoric. In what way is the church “abetting racist imperial European expansions”? We have cardinals from many races, and support people of all creeds around the world.
      I’m afraid it would take someone a lot cleaver, or more stupid, than me, to know what you are referring to by “oxymoronic corruptions of language”?
      The term universal is used to cover heaven and earth, so who knows about Mars.
      I must thank you for a good laugh however. As for the poverty of the Pope, the garb is to honour their office and Christ in particular. If any of them succumbs to pomposity, sad for them. It may interest you to know that JP2 while still young enough, slept many a night on the floor. When they live their vocation properly, neither you or I have earned the right to sneer at them.
      We shall all indeed be asked to render an account.
      So despite the Atheists claim, to me our beliefs are not fairy tales, but we shall find out later, shall we not?

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    • Papal infallibility! Inexcusable mistakes in respect of handling child abuse. Therefore papal infallibility is a myth. QED.

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    • You have not addressed the issue.
      The issue remains when will the church take the cross of compensation for its crimes off the innocent taxpayers’ backs.
      And while your victims still sleep and die on the concrete streets your church ‘princes’, right down to parish level, are locked securely into their enormous episcopal ‘palaces’.

      Lip service?

      Reply
    • @ SmaointÃ
      As a self professed angel, wings and all, you should be more precise before you QED. Several bishops made very serious bad judgement calls, and some bishops may have even abused, but there is no evidence of any recent pope being abusive, or handling this issue badly. The infallibility only applies to the pope, only in very limited instances and on limited issues. So for instance even though the women’s ordination issue is clearly regulated, and the theology behind it clear, it has not been declared infallibly. But I’m sure you already knew that, and you were giving a devilish flutter of those wings, for effect.

      Reply
    • @ Damien Flinter
      I don’t believe I’m qualified to answer your question on the financial burden fully, but ill make some comments. The way the people of Ireland dealt with these issues in the past was to put people into institutions, and the only educated people to run these institutions were religious. We all know now that some of the people running these were desperate. But the state, you and I today, also has a responsibility. This is what led to the agreement on shared responsibility. Those affected can never be fully compensated.
      The bad decisions and abuse by some individuals, and institutions, does great harm to the church, but it does not lessen the truth that Christ saves us and gives us grace to live better lives and move toward our final goal.
      The church is not just abuse:
      It is also, protection of the child in the womb, the st. Vincent De Paul society, aids support to many who suffer in Africa, it picks up the dying from the streets in Cairo, its Sr. Stanislaus, it was in Auswirch, it hid the Jews in Rome, it works against trafficking in the sex industry in Ireland and around the world, it promotes debt burden relief for the poor nations at the United Nations, etc. etc. Have you done more than the church for the poor? Have you given up married life and family for what you believe in, I haven’t, but I honour those who do so in good faith, and refuse to tar them with the brush of others corruptions.

      Reply
    • Saves you from what Paddy?

      The Hell of having to think for yourself without the teddybear pope to comfort you from the realities of being an adult?

      Reply
    • @ Damien Flinter
      Sorry to see you are switching to a more insulting rethoric now Damian. Perhaps the saving we need is from the heaven or hell that our own infallible minds create for ourselves. The teddy bear pope as you call him is a man I greatly admire, but we all have to make our own way through this life, preferably into adulthood, which many now seem to avoid.

      Reply
    • I’m curious as to just how you define ‘adulthood’.

      Some of us associate thinking for yourself with that state. Not accepting ethical dictation from self-appointed ‘fathers’ who have oxymoronically(there it is again)sworn to a celibacy that most of us consider unnatural.

      And certainly not accepting dictation over the lives of women because these self-hypnotised, and purportedly celibate, moralisers think a foetus should have equal rights, at their dictation, with the adult woman carrying that foetus.

      What is your definition?

      Reply
    • As for that ‘infallible minds’…typo?

      And what the church fears is that a generation has emerged that will no longer be cowed into obedience and deference to its dictation by your cult’s former monopoly on education, and that can think for themselves.

      Reply
    • @ Damien Flinter
      Not much worth responding to this time TG. Do you really believe freedom of thought prevails in a godless society, perhaps you should ask a Russian under Stalin or a Chinese under Mao.
      Speaking as one of the self-hypnotised, I enjoy levels of freedom you could not imagine. This is the freedom built on the shoulders of generations of wise men and women.
      As a matter of record they are not self appointed fathers, they are carefully vetted and selected by a higher power.
      My off the cuff definition of adulthood, would be someone willing and able to put their personal preferences aside, in the service of others, be it a spouse, or children, of another group of humans.
      What the church fears is that Europe is rearing generations of young adults, who are so self absorbed that they believe all truth originates between their own two ears, that there is nothing to learn from older or past generations, and that there are no consequences to their delusion. As always I can delight in the fact that there are still many wise, extraordinary youth, much more on the road to adulthood than many a lot older.

      Reply
    • @Paddy

      I’d need you skyphone to call a Russian under Stalin or a Chinawoman under Mao, so that must be put away as a facetious diversion.
      And its a bit Irish to be lecturing about ‘freedom of thought’ from that Roman pulpit. Auto-da-fe?

      The question about the rights of a foetus trumping the rights of a mature woman carrying that foetus is ‘not worth responding to’. If I were the late Savita’s husband I’d be tracking you down for your adolescent arrogance and callous self-righteousness.
      ‘Higher power’ reads like Santa Claus, patron of childish distractions from the hard realities most of us live in.
      An etihical conscience is the highest power an adult should tune to. Anything else is voices in the head psychopathology; which explains the historic behaviour of many religious cults, from Letterfrack and Artane to the Taliban.
      I was raised under the sanctimonious ‘freedom of thought’ of the Ayatollah McQuaid, I’m immunised against your jesuistical methodism. And thankfully it allowed me steer my kids around the treacherous obscurantism it took me a while to fathom.

      Reply
    • Paddy, since you seem to be taking questions here, can I ask something? Genuinely, with no malice or desire to trap you.

      Most of your arguments so far have leaned on your belief that the Church is a righteous moral authority, that it “keeps abreast of science”, has great diplomatic relations with other countries, that those chosen to join the ranks of the clergy and that work with the church have done great work with SVP and many other charity missions abroad, and that you have great respect for the moral integrity of the last popes (at least, I know you’ve mentioned them both above).

      But can you admit that that is all the Church is? That it’s just a philosophical group, that attempts to tell people what’s right and wrong based on what it believes, and that at this stage of it’s existence it has completely detached itself from Christian theology? Jesus was silent on the notion of abortion and gay marriage, and many other issues that the Church offers an opinion in. And sometimes the Church even preaches contrary to Jesus’ teachings. “It is not what goes into a man’s mouth that makes him sin, but what comes out” was a quote of his I do believe. And 1Timothy Chapter 4 has a very interesting passage about how people will be lured into the “false ways of men whose words are untrue…who keep men from being married and taking food which God made…”. Considering how much time the Church spent telling priests they couldn’t marry, and forcing people to fast at Lent and on Friday’s do you see my point? And it’s aware of it too, think of how much effort the Church put into keeping the Bible out of parishioners hands and how its still not encouraged (never met a Catholic with a Bible myself). The list goes on. Can you not accept that the Catholic Church, whether or not it is “one of the best informed institutions in the world”, isn’t a Christian organisation anymore? And that by extension Catholicism isn’t a religion anymore as much as it is a political regime?

      Reply
    • @ Brendan Williamson
      That is a very interesting and detailed question. Are you by any chance from another Christian denomination?
      The Catholic Church is only interested in Christ, and the salvation made possible through his death and resurrection. It wishes the very best for society and its interaction is always, from its perspective, for the good of society as a whole. It uses theology and philosophy as languages to explain and reason.
      Not only has the Catholic Church remained true to Christs teaching by sticking to the twin pillars of scripture and tradition, but it is the authentic interpreter for issues of faith and morals.
      Not only do Catholics read scripture, but they were responsible for bringing it together. Everything we do sacramentally is scripture based. I, along with many other Catholics, read scripture every day.
      I’m not getting into the gay debate in relation to scripture, but it is very clear in both old and new testaments that gay activity is not moral, and as a result Catholics follow this principle. Abortion is the deliberate taking of life, so I believe Moses covered it in the fifth commandment, but it was specifically mentioned in the Diadache from the second century. The practice of celibacy was already encouraged in the epistles. I am unaware of any way in which we contradict Christ, please be specific. Fasting was encouraged by Christ himself and the church encourages fasting in the same way, so I don’t see your point.

      Reply
    • @ Brendan Williamson
      That is a very interesting and detailed question. Are you by any chance from another Christian denomination?
      The Catholic Church is only interested in Christ, and the salvation made possible through his death and resurrection. It wishes the very best for society and its interaction is always, from its perspective, for the good of society as a whole. It uses theology and philosophy as languages to explain and reason.
      Not only has the Catholic Church remained true to Christs teaching by sticking to the twin pillars of scripture and tradition, but it is the authentic interpreter for issues of faith and morals.
      Not only do Catholics read scripture, but they were responsible for bringing it together. Everything we do sacramentally is scripture based. I, along with many other Catholics, read scripture every day.
      I’m not getting into the gay debate in relation to scripture, but it is very clear in both old and new testaments that gay activity is not moral, and as a result Catholics follow this principle. Abortion is the deliberate taking of life, so I believe Moses covered it in the fifth commandment, but it was specifically mentioned in the Diadache from the second century. The practice of celibacy was already encouraged in the epistles. I am unaware of any way in which we contradict Christ, please be specific. Fasting was encouraged by Christ himself and the church encourages fasting in the same way, so I don’t see your point.

      Reply
    • @Paddy
      No, raised Catholic, spent a while in Christian churches of different denominations including an all-Nigerian Pentecostal, but now I would consider myself a well travelled atheist.

      I’m not sure how keen Jesus was on tradition, but leaving that aside saying the Catholic Church is “the authentic interpreter for issues of faith and morals” is a tad sanctimonious don’t you think? No offence meant to you, it’s just that that’s the view the Catholic Church seems to have of itself, as the only voice worth listening to, with the Pope as God’s (only) representative, and it’s done it more harm than good in my opinion. It’s also relevant to the idea that Catholics compiled the Bible; just because it’s the denomination that kept the Catholic moniker and the throne in Rome doesn’t give them claim to everything done before each and every schism

      “I, along with many other Catholics, read scripture every day.”

      Then I stand corrected, I believe you’re the first I’ve spoken with. But I stand by my claim that it’s not encouraged, neither now now 50 years ago when Mass was in Latin, that surely isn’t a sign of an organisation that wanted it’s followers to know God’s word.

      “I’m not getting into the gay debate in relation to scripture”

      Neither am I, but since you mentioned the Old Testament and abortion take a look at Numbers Chapter 5, it’s pretty much a guide to abortion sanctioned by God.

      Regarding the contradicting of Christ, the way in which fasting on Lent and abstaining from meat on Fridays, especially Good Friday and Ash Wednesday was enforced by the Church. Not only did Christ say that what you eat doesn’t make you sin, in Timothy the Bible actually warned against the coming of people that enforced fasting and celibacy on others. I think the second point in particular is pretty damning of the Church’s rules on celibacy, Lent, and meat on Friday (which I understand is no longer a thing, but how and ever it’s still relevant). And where do the epistles advocate celibacy? All I’ve ever come across is that bishops should be teetotalers with only one wife (Timothy again).

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    • @ Brendan Williamson
      Thanks Brendan, I detected some Pentecostal influence in your earlier comments.
      I think we are on our own at this stage in this article, so we can be a little more focused. Considering Jesus fulfilled his Jewish duties fully, presentation, Passover, circumcision, the temple etc. shows his commitment to both law and tradition. He himself was of course, from a Christian perspective, the reason for all of the Old Testament.
      Peter was the first pope and Benedict 16th the 270th in an unbroken line of Catholicism. If you look at our catechism, which explains our rules, you will find it full of the wisdom of the fathers of the church from the 1st to the 4th century, backing up and underpinning today’s rules. If you consider basing our understanding on those who were closest to Jesus as “sanctimonious”, well that is your choice. But the Catholic Church is consistent and continuous. The above author, just like Luther and Calvin has difficulties with some of these rules set down through millennia, but it is only the Catholic Church has the continuity. The result of disagreement is expressed in the 50k Protestant groups worldwide.

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    • @ Brendan Williamson
      It is true that Catholics were dissuaded from reading scripture, perhaps up to 50 years ago, this was an over reaction to the often incorrect interpretation of scripture that lead to some of those schisms you mentioned. It has not been so for a long time. By the way, Latin is still the core language of the Catholic Church. The church always wanted the scripture to be understood, that is why it was such s patron of the arts when the people were illiterate.
      None of us believe the pope is gods “only” representative, indeed we believe that is a role shared not only by all Catholics , but all baptised Christians. But the pope is servant of the servants of god.
      I read Num 5 and found no sanction for abortion by god.
      In relation to fasting, Christ himself fasted for 40 days, he said there are situations that only “prayer and fasting” could change. What Christ did we imitate. I know there are groups against Christ, who practice fasting, because they know there is a spiritual strength in fasting. I would suggest that these are some of those Timothy referred to. The church still teaches us to do some penance on the Fridays.
      For celibacy see Mat. 19 10-12, but there are many others.

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    • @Paddy
      You lads are obviously bible students.

      Can either of ye give me a quote from JC where he advocates the practise?
      And Paddy, if you are qouting Moses as your moral authority you are locked in the Judaic tradition of an eye for an eye, not the later teacher’s message.

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    • @ Damien Flinter
      Hi Damian, just to clarify I’m not a bible expert, just a fan. I’m not quoting Moses in reality but God, as it was He who inscribed the tablets which Moses received.
      In relation to fasting, if that is what you are asking about, Mat.6:16-18
      In relation to Judaic law, the Old Testament is still part of the word of god, but we understand that it address humanity at an early stage of civilisation, and the New Testament given by Christ supersedes, and fulfils, much of the Old Testament.

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    • Well Paddy…I’m not sure how Thor and Zeus are going to feel about your betrayal and blasphemy, never mind the celtic Dagda.

      Watch out for the angry lightening bolts.

      And if it rurns out that Aphrodite rules the heavenly roost…

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    • @ Damien Flinter
      Are you doing some spread betting, well I’m betting to win myself. Hope I won’t be had for insider betting!

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    • I’m gambling that if there is a higher intelligence out there(and some days its hard to think there can be a lower one)it would be hoping we would put away immature dependencies on fantasy father-figures, and learn to think for our individual selves as responsible adults.
      And also that it might think that an ethical sense that required a carrot/stick, heaven/hell, reward/punishment, incentive to moral behaviour was a failure that reduced the human potential for conscientious behaviour to nothing more than pavlovian fears elevated to sophistic animality.

      Something less than my own conception of humanity’s potential to transcend its base animal evolutionary origins.

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    • @ Damien Flinter
      I wish you well with that Damian. But my view of the Father is somewhat different to your negative understanding. I see a caring creator who has bent over backwards, to the point of sacrificing His son, to give us the opportunity to choose what we call heaven. That is a reward far above and beyond this valley of tears we have to endure for this short time.
      Of course many will choose short term pleasures over future delights, but that is the human condition.
      Your system is very self reliant, I choose to learn from, discern, and trust other men of today and the past.
      Evolution is a tricky one, I certainly believe species evolve, but I also believe in a creator

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    • Ta Paddy, for the good wishes.
      I find you discussion of points less evasive, defensive and bigoted than most ‘Christian’ theists. You come across as an honest, if deluded, man; not too common on this wee island.
      Having traveled with, and lived among, Muslims and I found their behaviour similarly accepting of critical engagement. They are also better practitioners of the Christian ethics that the man(JC) seems to have advocated himself. They see the man as a prophet, a more agreeable analysis to my agnostic recognition that we should not presume what we cannot know. His deification was part of the con-job of putting his thinking out of reach and replacing it with a Sharia of canon law.
      I’m afraid my reading of history indicates your deity has sacrificed too bloody many of his sons, daughters, children, flora and fauna to superstitious unquestioning dogma for me to be drawn towards his ethics. Animals are more merciful than the average purported christian.
      I’ll spend my eternity in your hell before I kiss his Lucifer-creating arse. He just wants too much of it both ways. He creates poor old Lucifer and Judas, and then send the one into his inferno for eternity, and consigns the other to swing in the wind for fulfilling his own wanton filicide.
      Too many shades of Letterfrack.

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    • @Damien
      Bible student? No, math actually. FYI based on your last comment about Lucifer you should read “The Other Side of Evil”. It’s a fiction work, I think you’d enjoy it. I’m halfway through and it’s fantastic.

      @Paddy
      I suppose I never considered those aspects of Jesus’ life, I was thinking of the guy who overturned tables in temples and riled up Philistines for fun.

      “If you look at our catechism, which explains our rules, you will find it full of the wisdom of the fathers of the church from the 1st to the 4th century”

      I think links become tenuous when you refer to someone from the 3rd or 4th century as closest to Jesus, and taking what they say as gospel (forgive the pun) can become dangerous, you then become guilty of exactly what I accused the Church of in the first place; listening to itself rather than Jesus.

      “But the Catholic Church is consistent and continuous.”

      I really don’t think you can claim that the Church is consistent, regardless of your opinion of it now it has had some low points historically. From Spanish Inquisitions to indulgences and widespread neglect of its self imposed celibacy in pre-Reformation times to the recent abuse and Magdalene scandals here and abroad, consistency has never been it’s strong point. Granted no organisation that old has a clean record, but the Church can’t be raised up as a shining example of consistency in the storm of impermanence.

      I’ll leave you at that, I didn’t comment with the aim of changing your views, I just wanted to see what they were and by and large you’ve sated my curiosity, and given me a lot to think about. Thanks for your time, if it means anything to you you’ve somewhat dispelled my view that many Catholics were on autopilot faith wise.

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    • Paddy that is offensive and utter bullshit

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    • Lisa please shut up …. It’s been said over and over and over so meny times… No disrespect to victims of horrable crimes …. But having met meny … . They hate people who harp on and on ! So respect their right to privacy … Shut up !

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    • @ Martin St John
      Sorry if I offended you in any way Martin, no offence intended. Perhaps you can point out which parts of my comments offended you.

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