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Dublin: 12 °C Tuesday 21 May, 2013

Vote Yes: EU funds are like our credit union. Let’s not go to the loan sharks.

A Yes to the Stability Treaty will give Ireland access to the ESM, writes Naoise Nunn – and keep us out of a potentially lethal game of chicken.

Naoise Nunn

GLANBIA, HEADQUARTERED in Kilkenny, is one of this country’s great corporate success stories. As the agrifood and nutrition sectors become identified as high growth areas in the economy, the company has positioned itself as a dominant force in the field. Supplier of some of our most familiar household brands: Avonmore, Kilmeaden and Yoplait, Glanbia is one of the world’s largest dairy processors and one of Ireland’s biggest exporters. A corporate powerhouse that employs 4,300 people and has an annual turnover of €2.5 billion must be owned by a bunch of city boys in pinstripe suits who know nothing of the feel of clay under their fingernails, right? Wrong – Glanbia is majority owned by the Glanbia Co-operative Society Limited. That’s right – a co-op.

Drawing on his experience working with American farmers and on Scandinavian models of co-operation, Horace Plunkett helped establish the co-operative movement in Ireland at the end of the 19th century. Thirty years before independence, Irish farmers were able to come together to process and market their produce and improve standards of exports under the banner: “Better farming, better business, better living”.

Co-operative principles had been applied elsewhere in the world for thirty or forty years, but they took hold rapidly in Ireland, perhaps inspired by the ancient traditions of meitheal. By 1904 there were 800 co-ops affiliated to the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society with a joint turnover of £3 million. More important than those numbers, however, was the common bond that came to be shared by the co-op members who could pool their knowledge and resources as a force multiplier to improve farming techniques, food quality, incomes and standards of living.

‘A group of countries have come together voluntarily to pool knowledge’

To some extent, Ireland’s membership of the EEC – when we joined forty years ago – and latterly the EU – is like the relationship between the farmer and the co-op. A group of countries have come together voluntarily to pool knowledge and resources as a force multiplier to promote economic development and growth, to guarantee basic rights and to improve standards of living for all.

Of course it has not been universally successful and we are going through the biggest challenge to the European co-op yet. In times of crisis in the co-operative movement, farmers fought shopkeepers and neighbours could often be at loggerheads over disputes petty and grave. Prices fluctuated, as did fortunes, but the solidarity of members saw them through.

After all, farmers outside the co-op system may have been independent and sovereign in splendid isolation but enjoyed none of the benefits of co-op membership that saw his neighbours prosper. The principles remained true and members and the country as a whole gradually prospered. In fact, the ICOS founded in 1894 is still hale and hearty today with 150,000 affiliated members employing 12,000 people and alumni including Glanbia, Kerry Group and Aryzta AG.

‘The ESM is in some ways like a European credit union’

An organic and obvious development of the co-operative movement among farmers was the establishment of banks run on the same principles as the agricultural co-ops to enable farmers to borrow from and save with an organisation under their own democratic ownership, guaranteed by the common bond between them. Inspired by this and witnessing the poverty and poor financial management in the 1950s that drove people into the grasp of money lenders in Dublin, Nora Herlihy, Sean Forde and Sheamus P MacEoin helped establish Ireland’s first credit unions in the late 1950s.

Despite the fact that early credit unions had been founded 100 years earlier in Germany, the Irish people proved to be such rapid and enthusiastic adopters of the movement’s principles that Ireland now has, by quite some margin, the highest per capita percentage of credit union members in the world and the ninth largest number of members in absolute terms, totalling more than three million.

The ESM (European Stability Mechanism) is, in some ways, like the EU’s extension of its basic co-operative principles to develop a kind of European credit union. Members pay into a central fund and draw on it in certain circumstances, bound by a common bond and solidarity of membership. The Fiscal Treaty is a statement of the terms and conditions which apply to members wishing to access funds. It is a basic agreement to certain housekeeping rules. They are tough and firm but they allow a certain amount of flexibility in extreme circumstances, allow 20 years for us to get our house in order and have the potential to prevent future debt crises.

‘The principles of EU membership are better than the alternative’

We’ve been disappointed by a lack of solidarity from some EU member states and institutions and we’re rightly angry about it given the fact that our bubble was inflated by capital flows from German and French banks to Irish banks. But the principles of EU membership and the logic of our remaining part of the co-op remain better than the alternative. Solutions are still possible and we can strengthen the common bond by getting through this crisis together.

Rejecting this treaty because we are angry would be dangerously self-defeating because we would not get access to ESM funds and be forced to borrow from the moneylenders at much higher interest rates, if at all. Rejecting the treaty because think we can get a better deal is a dangerous fallacy because Ireland’s rejection will not stop the other member states from going ahead with the plan and we will miss out on any subsequent upside. Threatening a No vote to get better terms is a potentially lethal game of chicken which we will certainly lose, again throwing the eurozone into crisis and, as we already know to our great cost, decision-making in a crisis is nearly always seriously flawed.

Approving the Treaty by voting Yes on May 31st will not overnight solve the continuing problems of the eurozone and the EU, far from it, but it does set out the basic foundations of stabilising the crisis to give us some breathing space to design a more comprehensive solution to the economic crisis and the crisis of democratic accountability. As demonstrated by Ireland’s experience of the co-operative movement, the credit union movement and our membership of the European Union, together we are better. The common bond requires a vote of confidence from time to time, especially in times of crisis. Now is such a time.

Naoise Nunn is the founder of Leviathan and a member of the Alliance for Ireland campaign for a Yes vote.

Vote No: The Treaty will bring the EU together – in economic stagnation>

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Comments (96 Comments)

  • So we are to allow ourselves be screwed in order to keep other co-op members happy. Eh, no. The big French and German banks were going to go bust because of bad loans to private sector Irish banks; not loans to the Irish state. Let those countries bail out their own banks and implement austerity in their own countries – not Ireland. Vote NO.

    Reply
    • Fagan's 23/05/12 #

      French and German banks will need bailouts, watch the approach that will be taken when that requirement comes. ECB Interest rates will be cut further, and a new LTRO liquidity scheme will be in place with possibly trillions at hand. The last one was at 1%, compare that to % of the bailout given to the state, averaging 5.8%, with the ECB component higher again. There will be swift and very generous action taken, when it involves their banks.

      The EU is now purely a vehicle for German and French political and economic ambition.

      Reply
    • It makes ya think… A united Germany was feared since the days of the Roman Empire. It was only fully achieved in the late 1800’s, followed by minor wars in attempt to achieve European dominance which then culminated in WW1, which directly lead to WW2. Following their defeat Germany was again divided. Since the reunification it seems Germany are trying another route for European dominance economic slavery.

      Reply
    • Fagan's 23/05/12 #

      The History of Europe over last 250 is not of individual nation states bickering and fighting each other over Nationalist rivalry. It is a history of a small few states trying to dominate all others for economic gain.

      It is a history of German and French imperial desire to dominate the continent. It was this desire that the European project addresses. A sharing of the spoils and control rather than opposing each other in mass slaughter.

      Napoleonic Wars
      Franco-Prussian War 1870
      WW2
      WW1

      Reply
  • Leave the credit union out of this…they have more sense than your normal high street bank..

    Reply
  • Does the credit union force members into hardship to cover its own bad decisions? No

    Does the credit union blackmail you? No

    Does the credit union threaten and coerce you? No

    Credit union me hole.

    Reply
    • Neil 23/05/12 #

      You’d be the first on here moaning if the money was not found to protect the Croke Park Agreement. You woudn’t give a damn where it was borrowed from and at what rate of interest.

      Reply
    • You might find this hard to believe, given your displays around here towards the unemployed and working class, but there are people who care about more than themselves and making sure their nest is feathered.

      Reply
    • Neil 23/05/12 #

      We’ve seen you getting all touchy about the Croke Park Agreement being under threat. Well its only massive borrowing that is maintaining it. So if you’re nutty enough to want no borrowing from the ESM and at the same time want the CPA then good luck to you.

      Reply
    • It’s not a case of nutty neil, its a case of giving a damn about other people, a concept that is lost on you.

      Reply
    • Neil 23/05/12 #

      Care about other people? No borrowing = 40% cut in government spending overnight. Massive austerity. That’s what you want.

      Reply
    • neil wheeling out the scare tactics once again to insult our intelligence. NOBODY is claiming wo won’t be able to borrow and heres why. No borrowing = Catastrophic disorderly default = Massive losses across europe many multiples of what we require and will pay back = Contagion = ESM being decimated to cover losses = Destabilisation of the entire Euro project, which if it collapses decimates German exports and their economy.

      Now, neil, without insulting our intelligence any further. Why would the ecb and eurozone not lend money to their star pupil that they’ll know they’ll get back, when to refuse would probably bring down their whole house of cards. Why refuse to extend the program of the country paying its debts and everybody elses?

      Go on, insult the intelligence of us working class waster shinner ganleyite leftie socialist marxist blah blah blah blah……

      Reply
    • Is a Credit Union legally responsible? Yes – but the ESM is not!

      Also, we would have to pay **any capital on demand within 7 days**!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNa5k0KCVbw

      Reply
  • I love this ‘loan shark’ analogy!!!

    Richard Bruton used the exact same analogy to scare us last week! So the Bond Markets are NOW the ‘Loan Sharks’.. Yet all the government talk about is getting back into them and also giving them confidence!! Seems ironic,don’t you think, that they are now being called ‘the baddies’!! Not fooling me anyway author or Mr.Bruton

    Reply
    • exactly Nigel… and aren’t these the same loan sharks that the Zombie banks all borrowed from, and from which the govt borrowed in our names to pay off the banks debts. Thus paying the bondholders twice, while transferring the debt to us with added interest.

      Reply
    • D R Grimes, you are right, the loan shark analogy is apt in the sense that so many Irish families are being forced to turn to such loan sharks in order to keep the roof over their head and the food on the table. This is compounded by the punitive interest rates being inflicted on mortgage holders by state owned banks like PTSB even though the banks are getting capital at the base rate of 1% from the ECB!

      Reply
  • We can continue propping up a system that doesn’t work by voting yes, or we can show how much bullshit comes out of our politicians mouths by voting no.

    Reply
  • “The ESM, its property, funding and assets, wherever located and by whomsoever held, shall enjoy immunity from every form of judicial process except to the extent that the ESM expressly waives its immunity … ”
    only a fool or those with a FG/Lab type slave mentality would vote yes to this….. God help us all if this is voted for I predict rioting on the streets and major civil unrest within a year. Vote NO.

    Reply
  • So the Jounals No vote article gives us accurate economics figures. The yes vote one tells us the EU is ‘just a big credit union!’ ‘It’ll be fine’….good job guys…

    Reply
  • Is this person for real? Trying to make the EU and ESM seem like simple co-ops and credit unions!!Does your local credit union have some members in it who tell other members how to spend their money?or maybe because one member has a bigger family (country) that they can dictate to all the other members how they “need” to run their affairs? Does a credit union threaten you with ridiculous fines and the rumour of expulsion if you are behind on your repayments?Like hell it does!!

    This friendly image of the credit union as the ESM is an absolute joke.We all put money in, we all take money out.Nonsense.Ireland have no way of meeting the ESM’s deficit targets.Where will our government on the ESM’s behalf take this money from our society? Hospitals?Gardaí?Schools?How will you be affected by the cuts?Is it worth taking 10 years of cuts, privatisation of all our national assets and absolute degradation of our society to please larger nations?

    We shouldn’t even be having a referendum on this until we see how the land lies with Greece,Spain and Italy.Any one of them go and the whole EU is screwed!We will have enshrined something into our constitution that may well be irrelevant!

    One final note, have we gotten so obsessed with money and bailouts,stabilising banks and our own jobs that we are willing to give up our sovereign right to govern our OWN finances??Do we really need a group of men and women we never elected in Europe to dictate how our own taxes are spent in our own country all for the possibility of some money, a bailout, we MAY need in the future??

    Reply
    • Neil 23/05/12 #

      If Ireland wants the freedom you talk about it then it must cease all borrowing. Borrowing from bond markets, or IMF or ECB means others are in control. But with 40% of current government spending currently being paid out of borrowing then the Hospitals and Gardai you are so concerned about will be taking massive cuts. So if you want to argue for stopping all borrowing then you must be honest about the extreme cutbacks and convince people it woudl be worth it.
      You can’t have your cake and eat it too.

      Reply
    • I’m taking about sovereignty.This is the quality of having supreme, independent authority over your own nation.The power to decide whether who gets a pay cut or not! (Gardaí etc etc)Are we willing to hand that power and right away so that we can POSSIBLY get money some time in the future at the behest of other parties?How much is a countries sovereignty worth?Are we willing to just hand away all our economic power to an organisation (ESM) who is untested and undemocratic?An organisation that is inviolable? Unanswerable to anyone but itself?

      We sign up for this and we no longer have any power in real terms.We will essentially be an outlying province of the new United States of Europe.We will pay our taxes into the ESM and they will be distributed as the ESM sees fit.Our own people will suffer and yippee we’ll have stability for the banks.The banks that have destroyed the lives of people in this country and all across the EU! So we want stability for them?So we can have money in the ATM’s? Keep the status quo as it is.We lose, they win. Great! I’m voting no because I want a complete rethink to the machinations of the EU and its failed banking system.Nothing too radical just fair and just.

      Europe was great when it was simple.Simple meant the people understood it.We all had simple trade agreements and we got on well, prospered in fact.

      Then like all good things, the vultures(banks/corporations) ruin it. Europe became increasingly hard to comprehend.Less people understood it. Bureaucracy smeared every aspect of the EU.You can’t take a piss without some EU regulation.We now have a currency, a constitution (which they call the Lisbon Treaty), an elected parliament with no power, an unelected commission with all the power and even a nice blue and gold flag!Do we need any of this?No.Which is the same answer I’m giving to this referendum.

      Let’s rethink and change for the better and good of the majority.

      Reply
    • TAA

      you left out the straight bananas!!!

      Reply
  • Interesting article Naoise I’d be interested in your views on the potential loss of Irish sovereignty if the referendum is a yes vote and the ESM is set up. Should we be as a people be voting just on the money after all that was one of the reasons FF stayed in power for so long……..

    Reply
  • Paul Oh 23/05/12 #

    Slow hand clap for the scare mongering with the ‘loan shark’ analogy. Its still a big effing NO from me!

    Reply
  • Please Yes Men, just answer the question of where are we going to get the €11 billion to fund the esm when all of its capital is required?

    Reply
  • Sarah 23/05/12 #

    I am only new to reading the journal but i can see the FG social media strategy on the treaty send out young blushirts to shout out Propaganda and tow the party line my god is there no free thinking independent voices in party politics in Ireland and if they do they get told to shut up, exactly what happened to George Lee. Interesting to see that David Higgins gets a lot of thumbs down i guess people on here can smell his bull**** from far away.

    Reply
  • Yet even more MORE scaremongering – amazing justification for giving away our sovereignty .

    I will still resist and Vote NO.

    Reply
  • Credit Unions don’t force you to close hospitals, shrink your GDP and sack a massive chunk of your workforce as a condition of a loan. And then insist that half of the loan is used on the Credit Union itself.

    Reply
  • ESM is like a credit union?

    Really? Are credit unions immune from being sued? Are there books inviolable? Have they no accountability to the joe soaps?

    What a crock this article is.

    Dear Ireland, we have put a huge ball of bankers debt on your backs, without asking. Now that we have to ask you something… would you like to vote to put on these lovely shiny handcuffs?

    Only one sensible answer to that, unless you are a masochist who likes to drag other people down with them.

    Reply
  • What a moronic piece of propaganda! So the ECM, in the writer’s view, is to be compared to the Credit Union? Anyone who has taken the time to study what the E.U., I.M.F., and E.C.B. is really all about, will know that they are the loan sharks. Read the book “Confessions of an Economic Hitman”, by John Perkins, or watch his interview on youtube, and Perkins (who was once an insider) will let you know all about the corrupt cabal. In fact, he will be in Dublin on Sunday 27th May, at a conference at Stillorgan Park Hotel. Title of conference is “Financial Terrorism”. There will be three other speakers, Willian Engdahl, Thomas Sheridan, and Ian R. Crane. These people are trying to warn the Irish people, before it is too late, and we fall into the trap of the corrupt E.U. criminals.

    Vote NO for FREEDOM and SOVEREIGNTY. Vote YES for ECONOMIC SLAVERY.

    Reply
  • ESM = LOAN SHARKS
    IMF = LOAN SHARKS
    Our only hope is to get out of the EU.
    Everything in the treaty is to please Germany and France.
    Vote no.

    Reply
  • Vote No ……….

    Reply
    • In the whole article the bank guarantee and bank bailout hardly gets mentioned: “our bubble was inflated by capital flows from German and French banks to Irish banks”. And that’s it. No mention of Austerity at all! It’s as if the author lives in a very small world unaffected by the trials and tribulations of ordinary people.

      Can’t wait for a similar article from the author on the Great Famine! Bet it’ll be a hoot.

      Reply
  • Paul 23/05/12 #

    There’s too many ifs and maybes.
    Voting yes gives control to the EU as to what bail outs they will allow us to have and if it’s in their interest to have us as a 3rd world country then they will.
    At least with a no vote, we can then make our own decisions

    Reply
  • George Hook has made an excellent point on Newstalk just now about how Greece seems to be getting concessions from the EU by putting its foot down. No more Mr. Nice Guy. The Treaty is going to be renegotiated. The French and Germans haven’t ratified and neither hav21 other countries so what’s the hurry? Let’s renegotiate and get a better deal on the bankinf debt. This treaty will tie Ireland to the existing EU loan shark that want Irish taxpayers as debt-slaves for generations in order to go along with the federalist agenda of ever increasing centraliaation of power in unelected bureaucrats in Brussels….

    Reply
  • Sarah 23/05/12 #

    I was chatting to an American Financial journalist last night and she was asking me for my opinion on the whole EU mess i pretty much told her that confidence was very low and we are being sold out by our Governments. She actually admitted that she feels very sorry for Ireland being part Irish on her fathers side she can even see that our Leader Enda Kenny has no negotiating skills and finds it incomprehensible that he wont debate a treaty that he has actually signed.

    She did warn me that we havent seen anything yet and in July all will become very clear and this ESM fund wont have a single red cent for Ireland because France will also need funds and this treaty is to benefit Germany only and sacrifice the whole EU to meet German single mindedness. God help us all i just hope the Irish people dont start saying what if and blame everyone else the mess if we vote yes. For me its NO

    Reply
  • That truly is a delusional piece of drivel. Ah sher ya, we are one big co-op, all partners in this together – Oh I am sorry, so people starving in Ireland, Greece, Portugal and Spain and suffering under the iron fist of the Bundestag and self appointed Queen Merkel, in a bid to keep German inflation low, should reflect on the private debt that their children are being saddled with it as our friends way of helping us out and looking after us!

    EUROPE IS NOT WORKING! We do not need more integration in a failed “Union”, we need it to be taken apart and learn from the crap that has happened. Poor ole Naoise talks about the financial dictatorship that Europe has become, like it’s a gathering of the Teletubbies in Brussels!

    Reply
  • I fully plan to vote no, but more importantly, I want my vote to be respected. If the country is asked to vote a second time, I fully expect protesting and riots to break out.

    Reply
  • Eu like credit union ?
    Did Herr noonan not put aside hundreds of millions aside in order to bail them out ?
    This mess gets bigger by the minute!!

    Reply
  • So much socialist comment about the yes vote . Socialist Europe don’t make me laugh . Even if the credit union is a good entity in its own right it is still a business at the end of the day . businesses dont want more charges but they want the tax payer to bail them out it seems . What a load of codswallop we have to listen too . maybe we should just turn off the lights when we leave !!

    Reply
  • Counties, Monaghan and Donegal are already circulating the punt, so let’s leave Europe and go back to our old currency and vote no to the treaty, otherwise we will forever be in chains.

    Reply
  • Without the ESM we face higher interest rates for our borrowing and MORE austerity. Vote YES.

    Reply
    • I know….lets start using the term “loan sharks” to frighten more people.

      And David, explain how saying yes will cure austerity….i bet you can’t without saying something about a second bailout….(By the way – even having your buddies talking about a 2nd bailout is a damning indictment of FG policy and proof that austerity has not and never will work.
      NO.

      Reply
    • It doesn’t cure austerity. But a NO vote would make austerity worse. Any amount of mathematical reasoning will tell you that.

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    • Depends how you look on it david. Pay €11 Billion you don’t have into the ESM fund so you have access to a low interest rate on a loan of €36 Billion, or pay a higher rate but not have to find a third of the money up front that you will never see again as it will cover banking losses in other states.

      Reply
    • All this maths people bring in thier big calculations,pie chats,big words etc etc. it makes a ordinary citizens lost in a fools paradise…how hard it is for people in charge of this country to create jobs

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    • Vote yes for austerity, vote NO for austerity????

      I fully understand the consequences of a NO vote as i fully understand the consequences of a yes vote but unlike you David, if austerity is here to stay and judging by FG’s recent dalliance with the prospect of a second bailout it is here to stay i’d rather that austerity, regardless of how BS and unfair it is administered by people I and others can kick out of office in a few years…(and LOL – going on FG’s track record of always being a 1 term party…..)…instead of some unelected cartel of bankers accountable to no-one.

      And since when did becoming a beggar state be such a good thing?
      The first bailout was hardly marked here with joyous scenes on O’Connell street yet FG use it like something we should aspire to – disgraceful.

      Reply
    • David, unlike your party colleagues in government, stop with the soundbites and enter into some proper debate on the treaty detail.
      What do you think of the treaty enshrining the bank debt into social debt and being included in the structural deficit? How can we reduce te structural deficit inclusive of the bank debt, down to the levels demanded in the treaty without killing off an already depressed domestic economy ?
      Secondly, on the ESM, what is your opinion on the ESM being unaccountable and above European law?

      Reply
    • Neil 23/05/12 #

      The Shinners and the Ganleyites get every shifty when they have to explain where we borrow money from besides the ESM.
      The bond markets charge very high interest, and the IMF are pretty hardcore about reducing deficits quickly. They are quite fond of extreme austerity.
      No lender is condition free. They always want something in return.

      Then again, Sinn Fein and Ganley are just opportunists. SInn Fein are quite happy with austerity in NI, and Declan Ganley will gain financially from a No vote.

      Reply
    • Neil “Sinn Fein are quite happy with austerity in NI”

      Some people might fall for that one, but most understand that niether Sinn Fein or the Unionists run the show in NI – that would be David Cameron and his gang of merry right wing conservatives. Lest you forget, the six counties still belong to the UK and is adjunct to the house of commons.

      Reply
    • Neil, Ganleyites?? LOL! The labels and fingerpointing continues. What a debater!!

      Reply
    • Neil, I am one of….ahhh forget it, i’m no longer gonna reply to anymore of these quisling EU loyalists, they know no shame, shower of gombeens.

      Reply
    • Sarah 23/05/12 #

      Do you have a crystal ball young blueshirt? Or are you dating Mystic Meg?

      The thing is people here are intelligent enough to make a hard decision and know the consequences of doing so. You like your leader and his penguins do as you are told and the people of Ireland are sick to death of Propaganda and lies. Enda wont debate the treaty as he hasnt the confidence to stand up and tell it as it is. You really need to look at David Mc Williams video on youtube Punk Economics all explained in very simple terms but then again it might be too complected for a young blue like yourself.

      Reply
  • hahahahhahahahhahahahahhaha the EU, IMF, ECB, and the deutche Bank ARE THE LOAN SHARKS, what the hell do you people think austerity is hahahhahahhahhahahhahahhahahahahahhahhahahhahahahhahhahahhahahhahahahhahhahahhahahahah

    Reply
  • censored 24/05/12 #

    LOL a bankrupt country that can’t afford to borrow another penny argues about the interest rates available on future borrowings.

    Reply
  • This article is rubbish at best. You need to take off the rose tinted glasses and realise that the EU is not some friendly local organisation, but is a malevolent, self interested force that could not give a damn about the suffering in Ireland.

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  • I’m thinking forget about may 31th the yes/no vote, austerity and future possible bailouts. what we should think about is compensating the banks for thinking that we could control them and re-interduce some sort inter european exchange rate that would replace the pre euro extortion of currency exchange rates. Then the rothschilds, rockafella’s and the goldman sacks might get off our backs

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  • Austerity is balancing public service spending with the amount of tax you raise. Both Sinn Fein and the United Left are opposed to widening the tax base and defending the common socialist principle of common sacrifice for the common good, instead promising that services can be funded painlessly. It’s a con. The treaty gives us more options to handle austerity, but austerity itself? That’s here for good, even if Mary Lou is Taoiseach.

    Reply
    • God man Jason, target individuals and not the wider points, good job!

      Reply
    • Neil 23/05/12 #

      Of course its a con. You saw in France and Spain that Hollande and Rajoy were careful not to promise too much. But here the Shinners and ULA give us the fantasy land that somebody somewhere will give us billions in free cash no conditions attached. Then again, Hollande and Rajoy knew they could be governing soon while Sinn Fein and the ULA never will.

      Reply
    • Diarmuid, I just stated a fact. It doesn’t matter who is is charge if the books don’t balance. I just think it would be a novelty if we had a left wing party in Ireland that actually advocated left wing policies.

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    • The yes side have argued consistently that this should not be based around party politics, yet at every possible opportunity the Yes side have blabbered out the usual ole “left wingers think money grows on trees” boring and outdated rhetoric. I along with many on the No side, including Libertas are not left leaning, quite the opposite, so your comment is clearly political and has nothing to do with the treaty!

      Reply
    • I agree, there are people on the right opposed to the treaty. Cormac Lucey in the Daily Mail has opposed the treaty because he feels it allows us to ignore the need to take a scalpel to things like the Croke Park Agreement. I have met people on the right who believe that a No vote will allow teh dismantling of a large section of the welfare state, which they oppose. But it still comes down to money. If Mary Lou is right, we won’t have a problem, and she will gain politically, having been proven right. If she is wrong, someone will have to be held accountable for cutting us off from a source of funding and forcing to to hack away at public services. I pick out Mary Lou because she is the most prominent person on the No side.

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  • An excellent article – a welcome antidote to the scaremongering of the no side, and actually explains in terms most readers will grasp.

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    • “A welcome antidote to the scaremongering of the no side” in an article that uses the word “loan sharks” in it’s title. We need to get you some medical attention immediately!

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    • It’s an apt comparison – the European fund will be at a much reduced interest rate. Would you prefer to rely on the bond market ? Especially if Ireland renage on their debt ?

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    • David you say “the European fund will be at a much reduced interest rate” can you point me in the direction were that has been written down? Also do not the countries who sign up for the fiscal compact and ESM also have agree that a country can draw down money from that fund? As far as I know there is no automatic right to the fund.

      About the bond markets you should check out how Iceland is getting on now days.

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    • Who mentioned anything about bond markets there David??? More presumptions by the Yes sheep without listening to the counter argument!

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    • Scaremongering on the No side? I’ve seen valid arguments coming from many opponents to the treaty but just soundbites, spin and scaremongering from the Yes side.

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    • Neil 23/05/12 #

      Kerry, if you want the “growth” that Iceland has had then you could just be honest about the massive across the board wage cuts they have had.

      But no, that wouldn’t be a vote winner would it?

      Reply
    • Neil I’ve got no objection if the higher echelons of the CS/PS have their wages reduce / cut most of them earn way to much including our esteemed members of Leinster House. Yes we would have austerity like what happened in Iceland. Coincidentally we both went wallop at more less the same time. The point is Neil Iceland has turn the corner (to borrow a phase) while Ireland is still mired in austerity and next to zero growth. Possible to borrow another phase this time from Kenny we took the wrong train or were at the wrong station when it left?

      BTW can you answer my questions on the claimed “much reduced interest rate” and automatic access to the ESM?

      Reply
    • Neil 23/05/12 #

      Kerry, its an easy political sell to say “just the high earners” get the cuts. You and Sinn Fein are always pulling that trick. But the Iceland experience was massive wage cuts at all levels.
      If Ireland did that tomorrow then we would slash the deficit and there would be “growth” as Irish labour would be so much cheaper. Foreign companies would come here in the same way to go to Taiwan and the like.
      Making the cost of our PS madarins lower aint going to do that.

      But nobody argues for such wage cuts. Because nobody will vote for it.
      They might be cute and argue for leaving the euro and paying everyone in a devalued currency, which is a sly way for such massive wage cuts, but they never phrase it as wage cuts.

      Reply
    • It’s a crock of $hit actually David. I think that’s the technical term. It spends more than half it’s length waffling on about the warm fuzzy feel of glanbia and the credit union movement, before skipping over the realities of the ESM.
      Two sub-headlines jump out one saying the unaccountable ESM is a lot like a credit union. Actually credit unions are accountable, their books are not inviolable.
      and another one about the ‘alternative to EU membership principles. Which is another bogeyman suggesting we might be kicked out of the EU, despite their being no mechanism for this. What about the basic principles that private companies losses are not the problems of the citizen/taxpayer, and that it is unfair having put such a debt on the citizen’s back, to expect them to also agree to handcuffs and a blindfold.

      Reply
    • @neil Taiwan? Really? Last time I checked, it was massive Taiwanese companies (e.g. Foxconn) who are setting up manufacturing plants in low cost economies such as China, Mexico, etc, because Taiwan is too expensive. Taiwan is mainly an R&D centre, which implies high labour cost due to the well educated and provisioned workforce. If we were to use Taiwan as an example then definitely we need a No vote so we can encourage growth by pumping money into education and facilities – something the EU overlords will not allow with their forced financial control!

      Reply
    • Neil 23/05/12 #

      Barry, don’t really care about Taiwan. I’m talking about Icelands experience of massive wage cuts.
      If you want better education then we could employ more colege lecturers and teachers if their wages were slashed as well.
      But again, nobody argues for that because it won’t win votes. And no mistake, leaving the euro for a devalued currency means massive wage cuts. Thats the whole point of it.

      Reply
    • Fagan's 23/05/12 #

      Spain’s Rajoy, called for ECB intervention to resume in the Spanish Bond Market today, he also said that Spain cannot last much longer without Liquidity and financial support, ie bailouts.

      The 750bn in the ESM will be gone in months, if/when Spain goes.

      Reply
    • Massive wage cuts Neil? I’m afraid not unemployment more then tripled in Iceland at it’s worst to circa 4% of the workforce. 14% of the workforce experience a reduction in pay and 7% a drop in hours worked. One thing Iceland had to their advantage was their own currency which they devalued by 50%. Unfortunately we don’t have that advantage though the EU seems to be doing it’s best to ensure we may have that choice soon.

      BTW I’m not a supporter or voter of SF and doubt I will ever be. I just disagree with giving our economic sovereignty away for a few pieces of silver we may or may not need. Sorry about that.

      Reply
    • Neil 23/05/12 #

      Kerry, if you think a 50% devaluation in the currency you pay people with is not a wage cut then you’re on another planet.

      Reply
  • Vote yes and give over the nonsense the Shinners and company have no credible alternative and never will .theyve opposed everything without any credible or constructive criticism. It’s only a matter of time before people will see their true intent.

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    • Guess you weren’t watching the frontline debate where gilmore and that woman who thinks you can run a country like a business got their arses handed to them so…….

      Martin, you’re a member of the party whose breathtaking incompetence on economic matters got us into this mess, aren’t you? Or are you part of the party trying to threaten and blackmail us into a ‘yes’ vote?

      I always get your party membership mixed up.

      Reply
  • Mmmmmmmmmmm. Donuts

    Reply
  • Ann Reddin, describes David Cameron as right wing. What an insult to the true right, to good honest people like Lord Norman Tebbit and Dame Margaret Thatcher. The current conservative Party is almost as left as Ed Milliband

    Reply

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