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Dublin: 11 °C Wednesday 22 May, 2013

Column: We had to make difficult cuts in the Budget – but these are extraordinary times

Social welfare spending has to be cut in order to balance the budget – but we can still protect the most vulnerable, says Joan Burton, Minister for Social Protection.

Joan Burton

THIS GOVERNMENT HAS faced very tough decisions in agreeing the measures contained in this Budget.

At the moment, the state is spending €16 billion more each year than it receives in taxes and PRSI. The Department of Social Protection will spend €21 billion, or almost 40 per cent of all current government expenditure, this year.

To be precise:  four in every ten euros that the government spends are spent on social protection. It is vital that this Government secures economic recovery. To do this we must put the public finances back on a sustainable footing.

We have decided to make an adjustment of €3.8 billion between tax and spending in 2012. Of this, €1.45 billion is to come from day to day spending including health, welfare and education.

As the biggest spending Department, the Department of Social Protection must play its part in that adjustment.

Yes, there will be €475 million in cuts in my department. But it could have been €665 million.

Previously, it was proposed to reduce the Department of Social Protection’s spending by €665 million in 2012. However, this government was unwilling to impose such a devastating level of cutbacks at a time of such severe economic difficulty.

We have decided to limit the adjustment in Social Protection spending to €475 million or just over two per cent of the Department’s spend. Our decision to limit the spending reduction in Social Protection also recognises the stimulus effect that welfare spending has on the economy.

I recognise the severe impact on families, individuals and communities as a result of the economic collapse. I want to protect them from the worst consequences of this very deep recession by delivering on the promise not to cut primary social welfare payments.

The  personal rates of all weekly payments such as Jobseeker’s Benefit and Allowance, Illness Benefit, Invalidity Pension, Disability Allowance, Blind Pension, Carer’s Benefit, Carer’s Allowance, State Pensions, Widow(er)’s Pensions and One Parent Family Payment will not be reduced next year.

In addition, increases which are paid for spouses and partners as well as child dependants are fully protected. The Living Alone and Over 80 allowances are also unchanged.

‘Even after the loss of  sovereignty, our welfare rates remain generous by comparison with our nearest neighbours’

Supporting families and children represents a statement about our values – that this country is a good place to raise children. Even to take a hard-nosed economist’s look at it, it represents the means through which we guarantee our future prosperity and well-being.

What I and my colleagues have been wrestling with is not the principle of such supports, but with how we might put this principle into practice given the economic and fiscal realities that we face.

The Budgetary measures that directly affect child related payments are measured.  They continue to ensure that payments genuinely address the needs of families.

The standard rate of child benefit will remain unchanged at €140. There will be no reduction in Child Benefit for the first and second child.

Even after the loss of our economic sovereignty, our core welfare rates remain generous by comparison with our nearest neighbours.

For example, rates of Child Benefit in Northern Ireland are €102.50 per month for the first child and then €67.70 per month for each additional child.

The adult rate of Jobseekers Allowance and Benefit in Northern Ireland is €78.33 for an individual and €122.95 for a couple. The rate here will continue to be €188 for an individual and €312.80 for a couple.

‘Citizens should receive benefits in proportion to their contributions’

Since being appointed as Minister for Social Protection in March this year, I have looked with fresh eyes at the existing social protection system.  One of my key priorities has been to balance the books.

A core principle  is that citizens receive benefits in proportion to their contributions.

Some of the changes that I am announcing today in the area of pensions put this principle in to practice. For example, recipients of the State Pension who have contributed more will receive a more generous pension.

I expect my colleague Michael Noonan, Minister for Finance, will have something to say tomorrow about widening the PRSI base in order to help plug the hole in the Social Insurance Fund.

‘Everyone should be entitled to one weekly income support payment’

Another principle is that we should gradually move towards a system where everyone should have an entitlement to one weekly income support payment only — with no special arrangements or top-ups for particular groups.

It is no longer possible to have a social welfare system where some people get more than one primary weekly payment, if we want to avoid reducing the level of weekly payments generally.

We have delivered on our promise to retain core rates, but we are discontinuing entitlements to certain concurrent payments.

The five measures which will provide over half of the savings for my Department

Just over half the savings I am announcing today come from five main measures:

1. I am reducing the rebate for companies who make staff redundant from 60 per cent to 15 per cent of the statutory redundancy payment. Given the low level of employer PRSI payable in Ireland, I do not see why we should dip in to a fund that is already in deficit to compensate often profitable companies for the cost of making their employees redundant in Ireland and, in some cases, transferring their employment abroad.

2. The winter fuel allowance will in future be payable for 26 weeks, a reduction of six weeks. The size of the allowance and the duration of the allowance have greatly increased during the last ten years. The scheme is unsustainable, given the increase in numbers and costs and the fiscal position of the State.

Of course, we are still paying the fuel allowance for the coldest six months of the year (mid-October to mid-April). It has always been the case and will continue to be the case that a person in difficulty with fuel or energy costs can go their Community Welfare Service. They are now in my Department and they are ready to assist people in difficulty.

3. I am reducing Child Benefit to €148 for the third child, while the rate for the fourth child is reduced to €160.

4. I am increasing the minimum contribution to rent or mortgage interest supplement by €6 a week for a single person and €12 a week for a couple. Curtailing access to the Mortgage Interest Supplement scheme is consistent with the Keane Report on Mortgage Arrears. I also intend to reduce rent limits to ensure that state support for rent supplement tenants does not give rise to inflated rental prices.

5. The amount of earnings disregarded for the purposes of the One Parent Family Payment means test will be reduced from €146.50 per week to €130 per week next year.  There is a view that the disregard may have had the effect of trapping lone parents in low paid part-time employment in order to keep their earnings below the disregard.

I am announcing a number of other changes to the One Parent Family Payment scheme. The scheme cost €1.1 billion in 2010, up from €751 million in 2005. Despite these significant levels of spending on one parent families, the results have been poor in terms of tackling poverty and social inclusion.

‘We have endeavoured to protect the most vulnerable’

The transition to a more balanced budget simply cannot be made without reductions in social welfare spending.  However, we have endeavoured to protect the most vulnerable by maintaining the primary weekly social welfare rates and the main child benefit rates.

Even after these aforementioned savings, this government will spend €20.5 billion on Social Protection in 2012 sending a very strong signal that we place a very great value on the role of welfare in protecting our citizens at this extraordinarily difficult time.

Joan Burton is Minister for Social Protection and TD for Dublin West. She was speaking after the announcement of the comprehensive expenditure report by Minister Brendan Howlin.

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Comments (101 Comments)

  • When is there going to be a *sizeable* cut to TDs salaries? You know like, since we’re all in this together… aren’t we?

    Reply
  • What is the philosophy behind this budget? Help the poor(hardly), actually close the deficit? (fails this test also – it has largely stood still), reduce dependency culture? (by pushing people to emigration), support businesses? (by adding 2% vat)), support jobs? (by encouraging redundancy immediately when it’s still at 60% rebate), creating the knowledge economy? (slashing support for postgrads and modern languages in primary schools) or end the recession? (in two quarters we’ll be back in it up to our necks). So can anyone say what this budget is actually about or will actually achieve, other than a pat on the head as top of the austerity class?

    Reply
  • Dave 06/12/11 #

    Ok Minister, we know you have tried your best to balance things, but let’s cut the bullshit. Our deficeit was 18 billion to start with. Over the last four years, we have had about 19 billion of adjustments. How then do we STILL have a deficeit of 16 billion. I know why – and you know why. The Banks. It has got to STOP. We are not going to take it anymore. Surely you can sense that we are now very close to revolt??

    Reply
  • Couldn’t help but to read this article ‘by the Minister’ with a Tatcherite tone in my head… Especially the 1 to 5 list of I decided to cut. Was expecting a “That is out” somewhere in there.

    How can we expect to read in to these things as genuine when most of the big depts arn’t even enforcing their own cuts – quite the contrary in a bulk of cases?

    Reply
  • debbie 06/12/11 #

    Start by stop sending social welfare and children allowance out of the country on a weekly basis and paying welfare into the bank there getting flights every 4 weeks to empty accounts lots were caught last year when flights got canceled due to weather . The amount of welfare fraud from foreigners is very high some of our own to .

    Reply
    • Social welfare is no longer paid into bank acc. They changed it a few years ago. You have to present yourself at a post office weekly. Perhaps there’s some exceptions I’m unaware of but I believe it’s the same for all

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    • That does not happen Debbie, you Irish believe everything politicians and newspapers tell you. Its just lie because they say last year they can save 600 million in fraud but now like a miracle this year its just 40 million. The weather and volcano was later say to be lie also, there was no difference in people getting to sign for their moneys.

      Reply
    • Debbie don’t believe the spin. Kasia is correct, they were bullshitting last year about 600 million in Fraud, now its gone down to 40 million. The thing about the ash cloud was later discovered to be bullshit also, there was no difference in the numbers of people signing on. That and everybody has to attend the post office now weekly to collect their money. Of the 40 million in fraud, I suspect the vast majority is being committed by our own.

      Reply
    • Not everyone has to head into the Post Office per se. If one is on Casual Labour then one can simply drop slips saying when one worked into the Social Welfare Office and the cheque is posted out to the address. This might be a bit easier to scam but generally, if someone is genuinely working in a part-time position they are probably less likely to be trying to scam the system. In short I have to agree with the previous posters in their comments about simplicity of welfare fraud being grossly overrated.

      Reply
  • Minister, I do agree and I believe most people tend to agree, that we do have to cut x y and z, however even though you may have sympathy for those without jobs through no fault of their own, whos hand has been forced to turn to social welfare, families and individuals up and down the country who have the threat of a final notice coming through the post. It is impossible for you to fully understand. You cannot realistically expect people to agree with you fully, when your salary is about ten times that of a person on the dole. If any of ye, in government or in the dail were fully behind the ordinary people and felt their burden, you would take a average wage. You may want to get the countries affairs in order, but till ye get your affairs together in the dail, expect a backlash of hate from those truly struggling.

    Reply
    • Very well said. Until we scrap the Seanad, the whip system and allow Opposition to make draft proposals to legislation our political establishment will continue to fail. A real opportunity for reform has again been missed out on! (and I dont buy in to some of that coming further on down the road)

      Reply
    • For all their concern, it didn’t stop Enda K giving his pal a E30,000+ pay rise. So – the lot of them can bugger off until they “all” lead from the top. Sorry, Govt – I know Ireland has to get its book in order, but start from the top. I hope everyone reminds them of that. As for FF, will ye get out of that garden ! We are here because of your failure to govern & do the right thing.

      Reply
    • @Kieran Dunne. Agree totally re whip being abolished and opposition playing a greater role but let’s not be too hasty re Seanad. Don’t like the idea of Dáil not having anyone “checking their homework”. I know this is a popular idea at present but maybe lowering pay might be a better idea. I like the idea of the elders and non-politicians keeping an eye on the egos of the Dáil, and don’t think everyone is motivated by greed.

      Reply
    • The Seanad really has no power though and a majority of European countries seem to survive with only legislative chamber. And if you give the Seanad more power you could end up with the kind of gridlock that you see in the US system where both houses have equal weight. I know removing it won’t make a huge dent in the deficit but on balance I think its dissolution is a positive step.

      Now I do think there needs to be wholescale reform in the way legislation is proposed and drafted. I think the committee system needs to be made more powerful. I don’t know if committee can propose legislation but if not then I think they should be allowed.

      We also need to reform local government on a major scale. We should have far less councils (I think something like 8 or 10 regional area councils would suffice) and they should have more real power so that our TD’s don’t operate like super county councillors.

      Back on topic. I think the concept of moving towards a single payment system is a good idea. Apart from making the system easier to operate and mroe transparent it would cut down hugely on the administrative costs which must suck up a huge amount of the money needed to run the department.

      Reply
  • Now Minister.

    Maybe you can explain to me how a “single mom” (you do wonder how you can be single and still continue to spit out kids with the same dad) with 4 kids who has been doing FAS training for the last god know how long, can walk away with 600+ per week (training = 11 hours per week). + Keep her rent allowance, medical card, fuel allowance and 200 other small things.

    I totally know there are tons of others who don’t know how to screw the system and live on the breadline, but this happens every day of the week.

    I could tell you about them, but hey I would just lose my job since we are not allowed to share this with other departments.

    And then at the same time have people who have worked their whole life lose their job and then be told there is a backlog of claims. It will be 13 weeks before you get a penny.

    The system is broken. Fix it!

    Reply
  • Margeret Thatcher gave us the Big Bang in the 80s , Fine Gael / Labour gave us the Gang Bang in 2011. Heading to the shop for more vaseline , need it for Baldy later.

    Reply
  • Get rid of the senate. Get rid of the HSE and replace it with an efficient Medical services board with a realistic ratio of administrative:medical staff. Get rid of child benefit for all those earning 100k or more. Use ghost estates to house people claiming rent allowance. A nation wide survey should be undertaken to see how much local authority housing are vacant and why? Houses in disrepair could be used by fas or similar institutions as practical short term training projects for apprentices or unemployed construction workers.
    To implement any of the above the first thing anybody would have to do is get rid of cronyism and that would mean to loosen the grip that FF still has on the civil service……they haven’t gone away you know!

    Reply
    • Joe. Agree with everything you said except leave the Seanad alone for the moment. Made a post on it above. Where do you think this notion came from? “They” don’t want anyone looking over their shoulders. I do!

      Reply
    • Reada, I do believe that the Seanad does some great work for the people of this country but it is an institution that can be dissolved and replaced with a body that is more cost efficient and closer to the people. Our local government is a joke, they have no power and decisions of utmost importance is taken by an unelected town Clerk with executive power that can over rule democratically elected representatives.
      Political reform and review is long overdue in this country and can only be achieved by ripping the old establishment apart. We need accountability responsibility,transparency and integrity in our politics something really new to us in this country.

      Reply
  • Italy’s govt is getting paid, the PM is not going to draw down his salary as he already has a lifetime senator salary and a pension as eu commissioner. I think Joan B has done a good job trying to protect the social entitlements but at the same time sending out a message that it’s time to ensure less reliance on welfare.

    Reply
    • I agree, she appears to have kept the main areas of Benefits untouched which appears to have been a tough juggling act.

      Reply
    • “Sending out a message” isn’t much use, seeing as this country’s unemployment problems are set to become chronic as a direct result of this budget.

      All of this “incentivisation” and “personal responsibility” guff is only nonsense, offensive nonsense. No sign of “personal responsibility” for junior bondholders, I note – some of us don’t forget that €700m…

      Reply
  • I’m lucky to still have a job, don’t have kids, never bought into the property craze. None of this really affects me. Why should I pay for other people to have kids? Nobody paying my rent for me either. I know this is going to get me a lot of thumbs down, but so be it. I pay for everything myself. Why should I pay for other people too?

    Reply
    • Because one day hopefully you will have a family and a home. What goes around comes around.

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    • Because we live in a society – not simply an economy. Everything is inter-linked so unless u want to live on an Island then we all have a collective responsibility to each other. As a child you would have benefited from supports as would your parents. We were all children at some stage. Today’s children will be tomorrow’s workers and they will be the ones contributing towards your pension, welfare and health benefits down the road. Glad you still have a job – I do too – but Im very conscious of people who dont and who are very desperate and raising families in terribly hard situations. I guess it all comes down to values at the end of the day

      Reply
    • Because if all people were like you nation will have no future and also perhaps for the reason that your parents were helped like everyone else with some child care money to bring you up and educate you and to send you safely into adulthood…? Time for bit of payback instead moaning ? :)

      Reply
    • Because, Doreen when you get old, these children Will pay for your pension, medical card, travel card etc….

      Reply
    • you’re not, you’re paying for the gambling of Irish and German banks. You know who to thank for that.

      Reply
    • Sandra, I disagree with you in part. When I’m old I will have for all of this myself with the contributions I pay every week in paye, USC, pension funds etc.

      Reply
    • @Doreen
      Are you really that naive? Will you always have a job? never get sick? guaranteed pension?
      Are you a politician?

      Reply
    • Doreen.
      Ok I can see how you think BUT try putting yourself in my place..
      I was married, husband violent and abusive..had 3 kids. I got nothing from him, everything I had financially went getting rid of him (sadly not in a literal sense) I worked very hard, long hours and got the kids through to Uni with no help from him, I paid.
      One child has now left the country and looks like the other might have no option too.
      Whilst working massive hours I had an accident (definitely not planned but happened anyway) I cant do the job I had, I cant do a lot of other jobs either which are manual heavy work…God knows I would because I hate being in my situation.
      I hate being dependent.
      I feel demoralised and useless.
      The fact that Im in this situation and the stress it causes makes me ill and this makes it all the worse.
      I know Im not alone but still, it hurts so much.
      The Welfare state is such that I put into it for years and now Im using it, that could be you too!
      Dont knock it and dont feel engry because youre like everyong else who has to pay, you might end up like me…God help you!!

      Reply
    • Rommel, I’m not a politician, no. I’m just a normal person. If I need something, be it goods or services I pay for them. I don’t claim visits to the dentist or to get my eyes checked. If I’m sick I pay for the doctor and the medications. That’s just the way I am. I also pay every week my contributions as mentioned before. So when the time comes and I am old and can’t work anymore I can take my due with a clean conscience because I’ve worked and paid for it for the past twenty odd years and hopefully many more to come! If that’s naive, then so be it! It’s the only way I know and the only way I can and want to live with. Luckily I am still in a position to do this and I sincerely hope it stays that way!

      Reply
    • Mé féiner in other words, Doreen?

      Think Joan hit the nail on the head. Joan Byrne, obviously.

      Reply
    • My comment of the week goes to Joan Byrne. I know she doesn’t have a hope. Far too much sense!

      Reply
    • @Doreen
      Like you I paid my dues for twenty plus years and my wife continues to pay her dues. Due to circumstances beyond my control I am unable to work at the moment so “my time has come” earlier than expected. I can assure you that while I wish it were different, I too can take my due with a clear conscience as you put it.
      You are lucky to be in the position you are in and I wish you well with it.
      My comment re politicians was meant to be taken as tongue in cheek btw :P

      Reply
    • Doreen, I can understand your anger but we need children, and have to help families if this country is to have a future. It is other peoples children that will pay your pension and provide the other services that you will need.

      Reply
  • Why Irish people are not angry or on streets?

    Reply
  • Hang on, reductions of €475m? That’s not exactly the truth!

    The full report (link below) tells us that €475m is only the 2012 figure and that full cuts in a year will be €811m! So Minister Burton, we have two possibilities here. When you say cuts could have been up to €665m:

    a) Someone in Finance is pulling the wool over your eyes
    b) You’re trying to pull it over ours?!

    http://budget.gov.ie/budgets/2012/Documents/CER%20-%20Estimates%20Final.pdf

    Reply
  • Ciaro 06/12/11 #

    Meanwhile, pay rises are still being paid to public servants in the firm of increments.

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  • I understand all cuts had to be made and fair enough in the most areas they did not popular, but needed job, but one makes me thinking that is really bad, benefit for disabled people has been hacked a lot. That is very unfair to take away another chances from people already with limited chances. Who was thinking when they planned this cut this is disgrace.

    Reply
  • How did you manage to type that Joan with your fingers crossed behind your back. I guess you probably got some minion to type it for you did you even dictate it?

    Get back to your ivory tower and cut all TD & minister’s pay to 70k a year and then I might listen to you.
    Cutting winter fuel and disability allowances – shame on you.

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  • Nooooooooo Joan wouldn’t do that. She was adopted as a little baby, she cares about people, she is an angel. Stop that carry on Rob, I wont tolerate it. You will not speak bad about Irelands angel

    Reply
    • It’s ok Magic. Think I might have you sussed. Carry on kicking until they wake up. Plenty time for kissing later.

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    • I read so much about her recently being an adopted little baby and the tough life she had, it was nearly as bad as Gay Mitchell’s life living in the pothole on Thomas Street with his 47 starving brothers and sisters. Is it just me, or in a certain light does Joan look like Saint Theresa?

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    • Dunno Magic. Don’t think Joan is that bad. Just wish that those on the left dint get the blame for all cuts. Think it was very cynical of FG to give highest spending depts to Labour, and have Dr Death propped up by 2. Bloody sick of it!

      No need to kick me. I’m wide awake. Btw have we spoken before under another pseudonym?

      Reply
    • Great, should be a few more Angels flying round here by 24th, hope theyre bearing much better tidings.

      Reply
    • Perhaps Réada, it is possible. I am the personification of ‘Magic’ I can morph into people and objects at will. I do not need to kick you my pseudo friend, keep the faith!

      Reply
  • so they basically decided to hit those most unable to defend themselves – children

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  • @Joe Sixtwo. Can’t stay logged in to reply to you above, so have to use app. Re your reply above I agree with every word this time. But the Seanad is an idea that is being floated a lot atm. And the floaters are counting on the fact that most of the floatees are clueless!

    Reform has to start in the Dáil. Don’t want Seanad to be abolished on a cost saving reactionary whim! And I don’t think that the powers that be are capable of deciding on transparency atm.

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  • “For example, rates of Child Benefit in Northern Ireland are €102.50 per month for the first child and then €67.70 per month for each additional child.
    The adult rate of Jobseekers Allowance and Benefit in Northern Ireland is €78.33 for an individual and €122.95 for a couple. The rate here will continue to be €188 for an individual and €312.80 for a couple.”

    you can also buy a loaf of bread in the north for 12p!

    Reply
  • Hi Joan.

    I’ve been a Labour voter all my life – btw I was one of the votes that first got you elected, and it’s been a tough road at times, especially when ye team up with FG but I’ve remained so as I believe it’s Ireland’s best chance of having a solid left voice.

    Any chance of remembering the Labour ethos? If ye don’t speak up Labour’s going to be obliterated at the next election. And then what? Back to FF? Or worse a FG only government? Feel bit sick at the thought of either!

    Btw I have no doubt that this would have been a much worse budget were it not for your presence at the table. But it will be Labour will take the wrath at the next election. For the obvious reason the Irish voter don’t like to challenge the Generals only the Cannon Fodder and that’s exactly what FG are using ye for!

    Lastly I noted the Labour slips on Frontline re the threats by Mercozy and the actual use of the word “Mercozy” later on Vincent Brown! Brilliant!

    You only have to look at the thumbs here to see either the FG party lackies are out in force or else the Irish people have been kicked senseless. Literally!

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  • Putting on my “Pedantic Pat” hat for a moment…

    “To be precise: four in every ten euros that the government spends are spent on social protection.”

    That’s not precise.

    Reply
  • Hey Joan how do you stand over slashing €88 a week off the disability payments to those individuals who are mentally and physically unable to work….I mean those citizens who are down syndrome or autistic or cannot use their limbs etc….this your idea of protecting the most vunerable…..there again what would you know living on your €100k salary no great burden to you is it

    Reply
  • Well then. You better get ready for an extraordinary response.

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  • God, people are sooooo gullible.

    Some weeks ago headlines appeared “Minister denies cuts will be in the order of €665M”. Who did you think leaked that? Burton of course, so she could turn around and tell us

    “Yes, there will be €475 million in cuts in my department. But it could have been €665 million.”

    It was never going to be €665. That headline was to make Burton look like a hero for only cutting €475.

    You don’t get to be a Minister buy not knowing how to manipulate the masses

    Reply
  • There is a cold logic to reduced rates of unemployment assistance for younger people; get them into work and out of a benefit culture idea.

    However, this logic simply does not apply to the reduced rate of disability benefit for younger people. There is no logic to this at all apart from the savings that will be made.

    If I was a Labour TD, I would accept that I had to vote for everything else but this one.

    Reply
    • Don’t mean to be always at you Donal, but the “benefit culture” line just doesn’t wash in these “extraordinary times” – this is about taking away from those who have the least, but leaving the highest earners essentially untouched.

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    • Maybe you should start with reading what I said Niall!

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    • Heh, any excuse to have a go ;)

      Seriously though, I don’t think that the “cold logic” applies to any of the cuts – if the employment situation was such that people had the option of “choosing” unemployment over work, then maybe it might carry some weight.

      In this budget it’s simply a smokescreen for a political decision to inflict budgetary “adjustments” on those least able to afford them.

      Reply
    • Niall, cuts have to be made. We are spending €18Bn a year more on our day to day living than we are earning. Yadda Yadda: There is no magic untaxed honey pot that is going to bridge that gap. Yes, for the sake of optics, no State employee should earn more than €150k or receive a pension of more than €60k but this would not solve the problem. Yes, refinancing the banks and paying back Anglo bondholder hurts to the craw but this is the price we are paying for access to funding. The alternative is to live totally within our means.

      A cold logic applies to all of the cuts because otherwise they would just cut without logic, for example, cut the dole to €150. Get rid of the fuel allowance etc. The cold logic means cutting spending. As the State spends €20Bn a year on welfare it has to be targeted.

      Reply
    • Not saying any of these represent a “magic untaxed honey pot”, but a third tax band, or temporary heavy tax regime on the highest earners, a wealth tax, cutting child benefit entirely to those earning over maybe €80k, means testing all benefits, or similar measures would distribute the burden more fairly.

      All of the measures I’ve seen, unless Mr Noonan springs some major surprises today, disproportionately affect those least able to pay, this is my problem. And I think that a more even approach would be better for our economic health in general.

      We’ve been through this before, and I know you don’t agree with me, but I believe that any unsecured bond holder should be subjected to a substantial haircut, or be burned outright.

      There’s more to this than simple bean counting – it’s about what kind of country we want.

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    • Nothing you have suggested makes the need for the cuts go away Niall, that’s the problem. We have to cut spending.

      Cuts are always going to affect the needy.

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    • Donal perhaps we could franchise you out to other governments, surely that would erase our debt

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    • These draconian cuts are a disgrace, if this keeps up, pretty soon benefits will be in line with the UK!
      What will happen to all our welfare tourism?

      Reply
    • What welfare tourism? Oh you mean the myth that was spun to sheep like you. That big 600 million of fraud that within 12 months has been re-estimated to 40 million? Or all those bloody foreigners flying in to claim benefits because welfare here is more than a salary in their country? Check out Habitual Residency requirements. The only welfare tourists in Ireland are the IMF and EU, they fly in and out, each time destroying they welfare and lives of Irish people because of traitors in government and banks

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    • Maybe you should try reading my posts, Donal. ;)

      Nowhere did I say that I’m suggesting that there will be no need for cuts. What I’m talking about us the disproportionate effects that the particular political course that’s been chosen will have on those least able to afford it.

      When I hear justifications relating to the “cold logic” of stamping down on “benefit culture” or indeed “welfare tourism, it makes my blood boil, wouldn’t have gotten involved otherwise.

      I don’t think anyone should hold up the UK as a shining example of a rational welfare system – a nation ravaged over the past 30 years by Thatcherite neoliberalism. A nation of a super elite and an underclass, palaces and ghettoes, market discipline for the poor, hand-outs for the rich. Unless you want to see riots in Dublin like those in London this summer.

      We need to balance the books. Whether this is achieved by cuts, tax increases or “market discipline” for bond holders is a political and ideological choice. The €700m we needlessly paid to unsecured creditors last month would’ve possibly obviated the need for these cuts.

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    • Jobseeker’s UK up to maximum £67.50
      Equivalent in Ireland €188

      National debt UK £15,500 per capita
      National debt Ireland €30k per capita

      We’re more broke and simultaneuosly spending more.

      Now THAAAT’S magic

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    • That would be 80 Euros in UK Jim. That doesn’t take into account the cheaper cost of living there, better health service, utility bills paid for in full etc etc.

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    • Niall, as I said, cuts will always affect the least able to afford it. We are trying to solve our problems by using a mixture of new taxes and cuts.

      Denying that there is such a thing as welfare culture is ridiculous. Just because there are lots of worthy people on social welfare who would take a job in the morning doesn’t mean there aren’t people who see a system to be milked.

      I didn’t mention the UK as a shining example, but seeing as how you bought it up, if you want to look at where a benefits culture society can end up, the UK is an excellent example of why we need to change things.

      You acknowledge we need to balance the books but you don’t seem to accept that this also means cuts and that cuts always affect those least able to afford it. There isn’t a single serious economist who doesn’t say we have no option but to cut. And where do we spend all our money? Social welfare, health and education.

      Going on about bondholder burning options that are not open to us is pointless and needlessly repetitive. Clever people like Magic Kelly think the IMF are the enemy. They would have been quite happy for us to burn some senior debt but the ECB ruled them out. We still could have burned the bondholder unilaterally but we would have had to do without the funding that was available to us.

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    • That’s because no “serious economists” don’t subscribe to the tired old neoliberal screed of low taxes, small government, light-touch, etc., etc. You don’t get to be a “serious economist” by questioning this. There Is No Alternative.

      I don’t think there’s a magic bullet to deal with this, and I don’t believe that we can just drop the banks and everything will be ok, as you know, my position is much more nuanced than that. I do think that the government have seriously underplayed our hand with regard to “The Markets” and bondholders – as you say, the IMF was in favour of haircuts, but Timothy Geithner stepped in with a late-night phonecall to put the kibosh on it. I don’t take it as a given that funding would have been cut if we had done, not for one second.

      No-one’s saying that facing down the US Treasury would have been easy, but our leaders didn’t even try. No-one’s saying that adjustments that focus on raising additional tax income from the richest and most powerful sectors of society would be politically easy either, and again, no effort has been made.

      Instead of “difficult decisions”, we’re left with soft options – hitting the weakest and most marginalised.

      As things stand, again, unless Mr. Noonan has something dramatic up his sleeve, all of the income related measures in this budget will be flat rates – VAT, household charge, and the like. This is in a country where the top 0.5% take home on average almost €500k more per year than the average worker, and 1% hold 28% of the wealth.

      I’m not denying that “welfare culture” may exist, don’t know where you’re getting that from, I’m saying that the time to combat it would have been when there was full employment. Saying that this is the rationale for cutting now – as was claimed re changes to the scheme for part-time workers – is more than a little disingenuous. There’s also a culture of entitlement at the other extreme of society, which is never, ever challenged.

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  • I say to the people who voted for fg and lab in the last election dam you you people are a disgrace you voted in another bunch of looters

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  • lunasky 10/12/11 #

    Idea for Joan Burton, which may prove unpopular with most people, but here goes…
    Since young people aged 18-25 generally do not have significant income or assets of their own, regardless of whether or not they have a disability, I think it is only fair to assess younger people with disabilities on their PARENTS income.
    I have a 20 year old cousin who was born with a rare disability. He is in receipt of the full amount of disability allowance, despite his father being a retired civil servant on a decent enough pension. His disability allowance has been paid into his bank account for the past 3 years – must be about €30,000 in there by now, and my cousin knows NOTHING about it.
    His mother applied on his behalf 3 years ago, and never told him. She fears that if he ever found out about that he has that much money, that he will drop out of college. If this is the height of her worries as the parent of a child with a disability, she should consider herself lucky. Should he drop out, undoubtedly daddy will pay for another course or chances are he has some “contacts” who could offer his son a job.
    There are many people with disabilities much worse off, who genuinely need that money. Don’t grant disability allowance to those who won’t miss it!

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  • Its about time the ministers wages to be cut,and I mean drastically cut.If you take 20,,000 away from them,firstly,they wont miss it,then take away their child allowance,I think then, all our problems will be solved.

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  • Good on you Joan. I would only add we could raise even more funds by cracking down on dole fraudsters, those abusing the disability benefit as well. We need a sugar tax and a wealth tax as well.

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