There was another guy in the 40′s who thought it was right to so that kind of mercy for people with down’s syndrome but I can’t think of his name. Austrian fella I think?

Bringing Hitler into the argument is simply moronic Morgan.

The area of medicine would be nowhere near where it is now were it not for World War II. To bring Hitler into this argument is quite insulting to expecting parents and personnel who carry this work out to the highest of standards.

I support the two patient model. As for Hitler, it is strong language, but:
1) Selecting who lives or dies, without any associated guilt.
2) Targeting because of gender.
3) Accepting only the perfect human being.
4) Dissociating our own actions, from our responsibilities.
5) A popular social movement built on a wave of unfounded and misguided sentiment.
6) Anti reason, and anti God. But popular among the self proclaimed intelligentsia.
7) National blindness and imposition on the public without a direct democratic mandate.
All of these seem very Hitleresque to me?

Paddy, I don’t understand your point?

Paddy, you seem to be implying that allowing abortion will inevitably lead an intellectually driven, ‘designer baby’ craze?

@ James Connolly
James, there were several points, but perhaps we should add national blindness and self delusion to the list of traits required for the implementing of abortion on demand in ireland; as shared traits between what the Irish will have to adapt, and the German nation submitted to under Hitler.

I won’t get into a slagging match but I must of hit a raw nerve with that. Is it because deep down you really think the same?

@ Terry

Name dropping Hitler does hit a raw nerve with me because it’s an idiotic way to debate a serious issue.

Paddy, I don’t know who is advocating the “baby design”, but all I’m going to say is that there’s more prolife speaking about it than prochoice.
Terry, it does actually hit a raw nerve, you compared every single nurse and doctor to a war criminal, we are not war criminals, we are fully accountable for our actions (legally), we are fully trained professionals.
We are everything that those who were trialled at Nuremberg were not, perhaps you should read up about the differences between a war criminal and a nurse, doctor and expectant mother.

I didnt name drop anyone and if you cant say something when its related to the other then im afraid im not the one being moronic.

Hinting at the “Austrian fella” was name dropping, insinuating, implying, whatever word you want to put on it – but everyone knows what you were getting at. We’re not thicko’s after all.

Sean don’t feed the idiotic comments about hitler. The anti choice crowd are getting desperate because they know that legislation is coming. P.S love the way it’s mostly men against women having rights over their own bodies.

@ Seán Mac An Mháighistir
Well Sean to see what will happen, it’s best to look abroad. Babies are today being aborted for “reasons” as diverse as convenience, gender, cleft palate, contraceptive, worry, economics, lifestyle, emotional distress, etc.
It has proven to be a dirty industry, and was initially driven by eugenicists with the intention of limiting births among the poor and racially undesirable.
In New York today 60% of all pregnancies are terminated. The African American community has by far the highest abortion rates. All of this came about because of the Roe Vs Wade case, where a young pregnant woman was persuaded by her lawyers, to say she was raped and needed an abortion.
Abortion is a well financed mechanism of social engineering, but yes some with money, use it as a designer baby selection procedure. Many others however, in a time of great worry, are pushed into a quick decision, which most regret for the rest of their lives.
Many others of course are coerced into abortions by their unscrupulous male partners.
The most important thing for the Irish nation to grasp is that there is no such thing as limited abortion. This has worked nowhere, even though abortion was introduced into most countries in what was meant to be restrictive access.

Godwin’s Law folks. Once again the anti-choice side invokes an absurd comparison with the Nazis and thus loses the argument.

Paddy, I’m so glad you have FINALLY gotten the point! There is nowhere where restricting access to termination works!
A Catholic conservative prolifer has been converted before my eyes, I can die a happy man.

James, law enforcement hasn’t eradicated murder or assault either. Should we legalise those?

Well done Chuck, I’m nominating you for most unintentionally hilarious comment of the month.

I’m always amazed that some people would rather risk women take their own lives than allow doctors to remove an embryo from their womb. In effect, anti-choicers view women as less important than the contents of their womb.

Chuck, termination is not a “law enforcement” issue, it is a human rights issue. Very, very, very different things.

The minute that Bunreacht na hEireann provides a constitutional right to travel in order to murder or assault, we can have a discussion about the pointlessness of banning it.

And most people don’t think women who have abortions should be punished in the same way as a murderer, but you seem to disagree.

Nick, the constitution doesn’t provide a right to travel for abortion. It provides a right to travel

James, for “law enforcement” read “prohibition”

4500 Irish women have abortions every year if there is a god I doubt he cares where they take place. So unless u want to take away the right to travel it doesn’t make much of a difference what the Irish law is

Right so John, every abortion is medically necessary to save the mother’s life is it? James Connolly reckons that number is less than 1%

I didn’t say that Chuck, and you know I didn’t. But it cannot be denied that some people would not even allow abortion under the very limited circumstances of the X-case. They would force a suicidal woman to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term and thus would rather risk her suicide than end the pregnancy.

The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right.

This subsection shall not limit freedom to travel between the State and another state.

Chuck, while you might want to recast the right to travel as being unrelated to abortion, the fact that the Bunreacht na hEireann specifically states that the right to travel to access an abortion will not be restricted would indicate otherwise.

Paddy, I think you need to look up what Roe v. Wade was actually about before commenting on it.

Indeed. Paddy doesn’t seem to have read it – Roe wasn’t a rape survivor. But hey, why should not reading the case prevent him from commenting on it?

Actually, the constitution does provide a constitutional right to travel in order to obtain an abortion, it also includes the right to have information on obtaining an abortion in another country. To be perfectly clear, we allow our women to have abortions, so long as its not done on our soil. This is a very catholic “if I can’t see it, it’s isn’t happening” kind of outlook.

I don’t know where you all got your law degrees, but that amendment was written to acknowledge that the right to travel had always existed and could not be extinguished to prevent abortions

Any other reading would have required pregnancy tests at airports etc

The woman involved in the Roe case is actually a Pro Life campaigner herself and she didn’t ( as far as I know) have an abortion..

They always bring hitler into it its on the second page of the youth defence handbook *if loosing a debate quickly reference hitler.

Roe never had an abortion despite winning the right to one because the case took so long that she ended up having to give birth before any decision was made. That and her later change of heart doesn’t change the fact that it was a hugely important ruling for women’s rights in the US.

My law degree was awarded by Trinity, actually. And the right to travel is indeed restricted for murderers and rapists. Odd, it’s almost like people see this as very different from murder or assault – the right to travel to access an abortion as opposed to extradition if you commit a crime abroad.

So Bridget if the child was born and both parents were drug addicts and the child was put up for adoption would you be happy for two married homosexual men to adopt the child???

Ah Paddy, always focusing on the symptom rather than the cause..
If kids are being aborted why is that? Is it because of the social inequality and poverty? Maybe if the cause was fixed the symptoms would disappear..

And could you please provide citations for your 60% of pregnancies being aborted? It seems a tad unbelievable, even for an anti choice website..

@ Emily Elephant
Not everything is as pro-choice would have you believe.
http://www.policymic.com/mobile/articles/23832/on-roe-v-wade-anniversary-whatever-happened-to-jane-roe
There are many utube clips where Norma McCorvey, “Jane Roe” says the same thing
@ Nick Beard
Thanks for making my case, of course she was not raped, what I said is that her solicitors at the time got her to lie in an affidavit so that they could open the gates in America on the basis of a hard case.
@ Shanti Om
Shanti, its great to have one item in which I can agree with you. It is true that we should focus on the social supports for those who find themselves with an unwanted pregnancy, rather than rushing them into a decision to abort their baby. Most women, and men, who abort spend the remainder of their lives regretting their decision.

“Most women, and men, who abort spend the remainder of their lives regretting their decision.”

[citation needed]

In every reputable study I’ve ever seen on the subject, the exact opposite is the case. Women who choose to abort tend to feel relieved after rather than stricken with guilt – even if anti-choicers try to paint them as murderers and idiots. Anecdotally, I know several women who have had abortions and not a single one regrets it.

That does not appear in her arguments. Again, Paddy, it’s abundantly clear that you have read neither the case nor the arguments presented in Roe. Perhaps do so before commenting?

Paddy.. Where’s the citation for your 60% of pregnancies ending in abortion?
I’m glad that you agree that we should make it so less women feel that they can’t afford to have children, but that’s not the only reason women opt for abortion and you know it. I think all options (including supporting the woman in her pregnancy to birth) should be available. The difference between you and I is that I am willing to let the woman who is carrying that pregnancy make a decision for herself.. You would rather she did what YOU said, end of.

Oh and ps, no one I know who travelled to the UK for an abortion regrets it either. They thought about it at the time and made the decision that was best for them at the time. Some were already mothers, some weren’t. Some have gone on to have more children, some have not..
It’s silly to make sweeping statements like that without any evidence to back yourself up.. It just makes you sound like you are making stuff up to bolster your argument, which, ironically, unmakes your argument for you..

Well, if no one will recommend it, then there’s no need to worry, is there? Although as a woman with a mental health condition which would be exacerbated greatly by pregnancy, your lack of concern for my doctor and I to be able to come to the best option for me is shocking.

And I didn’t realise that in a democracy, your ill-informed opinions trumped two referendums! How enlightening.

You are so very wrong there, pro-life commits to protecting both the life of the mother and the baby. Both as separate, equal lives.

Hopefully not… What about all the woman who have died from these “safe abortions”….

Abortion is an invasive medical procedure and as with all such procedures it carries a small element of risk (infection etc). To imply that a large number of women die from it is baseless scaremongering.

They died from these “safe abortions” because regulation of the area doesn’t stand to scrutiny. If we regulate in line with other medical / surgical procedures there is no reason to believe the mortality rate should increase.
The only thing banning termination does is make mothers look elsewhere for unsafe termination, it doesn’t deter termination, it deters safe termination, carried out by qualified personnel.

And I’m sure you’ll happily provide us with that number plus a source to back up your claim, right Bridget?

Bridget, what about all the women our country sends over to England to have their abortion, do u worry for their safety when they can’t receive the adequate follow up care??? Or the women who buy the abortion pill online with no dr authoritative? Do u care about their health??? No u just keep them peepers closed and stay in la la land. My heart breaks for those women that have to abort abroad for whatever reasons they may be, although this is a very minor step to a major problem that Ireland will never face up to because women=crap in this country.

“Women=crap in this country”?

I’m not sure what country you’re in, but here in Ireland we used public funds to pay for boob jobs that went wrong

LOL what the hell has boob jobs got to do with this?? Clutching at straws.

Do i really need to walk you through it? It’s an example of how women are not treated like crap in Ireland. Their private, unnecessary, cosmetic wants were indemnified by public money

I could also point out that we had 21 years of female presidents, and we have a female Chief Justice who twists the constitution to imprison underage boys for having sex in order to “protect girls from pregnancy” but I think the boob job thing is more succinct

Actually, Bridget, fewer women die having safe legal abortions than die in childbirth. I assume your deep concern for women’s safety which is in no way based in your ideology means that you will be campaigning to make childbirth illegal then?

Jason just google it.. Centre for Disease Control etc… Lots of sites to visit… Tonyna Reaves is the most resent one the comes to mind…

Again, Bridget, it does happen (rarely) but far less often than death in childbirth. If your concern is purely women’s safety (rather than substituting your judgement for the informed judgement of women), why are you not out to ban childbirth?

Chuck I have a pain in my brain reading your posts as they are so ridiculous. Give up would you, legislation is coming and is long overdue. You don’t believe in abortion fine, I don’t believe in your God but I’m not coming up with ridiculous arguments as to why I’m right and you are wrong. Now please desist and stop embarrassing yourself.

Nick your comment is just silly… Childbirth illegal, (though I’m sure some would like that)….
That’s what our wonderful doctors, nurses and hospitals are for, to help all women..

Again, Bridget, you’re ignoring the facts – childbirth kills more women than legal abortions. What on earth does doctors wanting to help women have to do with that? Doctors are more pro choice than the average population, so you don’t actually seem that eager to listen to the opinions of medical professionals who want to help women.

And I suppose some would like for childbirth to be illegal – not people like me, who believe that women should be able to make their own choices, but those who think they know better than women as to what’s best for them. Sound familiar, Bridget?

EMD if you read my posts, as you claim, you’d know I’m an atheist

Nick…
1: Our Doctors, nurses provide excellent care for our pregnant woman, of course there are always going to be complication but we hope our doctors will always do their best..
2: I guess your not too eager to listen to our country’s TOP medical professionals either…At the recent hearings they said abortion not the answer for women who where suicidal ( because of pregnancy, or not)

Plus I’m not do sure most of our medical staff are pro choice!!

Bridget the youth defence need more people like you because you do more harm to the organisation than us normal free thinking people could ever dream of.

Didn’t hear of youth defence untill last year but I’m proud to say i’v been Pro Life all my adult life..:)

well keep spouting your lies you are a great ambassador for them

“That’s what our wonderful doctors, nurses and hospitals are for, to help all women..”

Except those of us you’d rather they forced to bear children…?

Oh, Bridget, could you be more of a cliche?

It’s nice that you ignored the multiple doctors who have asked for the law to be clarified and support X legislation (because apparently only doctors who agree with you matter!) Unlike you, I trust doctors and their patients to make the best decisions together. If doctors really don’t think an abortion is the answer, they won’t recommend one.

And while you don’t “think” Irish doctors are more pro choice, there’s actually academic research to indicate otherwise. But let’s ignore facts, shall we? http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1125/1224308110256.html

Nurses and doctors act to provide the best medical and pastoral care available, in line with best practices and in line with the law of the land, it’s not a case of being prolife or prochoice, it’s a case of making sure people don’t suffer and are well informed.
Right now, people are suffering – and don’t give me the rhetoric of “they can go abroad”, they can – that’s not good enough, it’s not good enough for the teenager with a crisis pregnancy because the condom broke or the couple didn’t know how to use contraception (let’s be honest, we’re not exactly flourishing in that area), or the married couple who don’t feel that they can restart parenting having just sent the youngest to university.
It is our job to make sure people are informed of their options, and we can (and do) do this quite efficiently. In terms of the majority of terminations, that is all we can do. We cannot provide what is a family planning service in every manual of medicine, in every description of WHO guidelines, UN guidelines – everywhere. There are countries in Africa providing this service as standard – the same countries that don’t have hospitals and their health systems are made up of Aid Organisations!
*That* is how behind the times we are!

Shane I don’t mind being an ambassador for Pro Life, but I do it on my own… But fair play to Youth Defence, the more Pro Life the better…plus where have I spouted any lie???

Going on about death due to legal abortion while ignoring that deaths due to childbirth is far more numerous might not be a lie, but it’s certainly a misleading omission, Bridget.

As is ignoring all the doctors who have asked for legislation when claiming that doctors all said abortions wouldn’t be granted to suicidal women (which isn’t exactly what they said, but I suppose you’re using LifeSiteNews’ interpretation of the hearing.)

Bridget you do realise that the CDC has stated that abortions are relatively safe and that childbirth is much riskier and that it has been that way since they started gathering data on the subject. It seems like you are twisting facts to suit your own arguement again.

Bridget I’m reading the CDC report on abortion related death statistics and I’m afraid it’s not backing up what your claiming at all. In fact it states the opposite, has these annoying things called facts as well. Perhaps you should take your own advice and read the reports?

Well, no one is denying that is has occurred sporadically. What we think is ridiculous is the lack of context as to deaths due to other pregnancy outcomes. Pregnancy is unfortunately a risky health event for women – which is why women shouldn’t be forced into it against their will.

1: I said I’m not sure all medical staff are pro choice as you suggested as I personally know several who are not..

2: didn’t say any doctor didn’t ask for legalisation because I know several did and asked for clarification ..what I did say is that the doctors who are suppose to sign on on the abortions don’t reconnect abortions..

3: never once ever said they should travel.. Ever.

4: thanks for the tip on the Lifesite

5: I watched the hearings myself

Oh, Bridget. I didn’t say ALL medical staff were pro choice – I said that academic research (which I linked to – always good to do that) has indicated they are more pro choice than the average Irish population.

And no, the psychiatrists giving testimony did not include any of Ireland’s perinatal psychiatrists, so they would not actually be signing off on abortions. Are you sure you watched the hearings?

Now Bridget is ignoring the actual facts

Youth Defence make the medically unsupported claim that abortion causes breast cancer, Bridget. Do you support them in that?

Bridget get your facts right!! https://www.facebook.com/notes/choice-society-nuig/facts-about-abortion/339429876158245

It is amazing how women campaign against their basic human rights. Mind-blowing lol. Bridget, dear, you are not immune from trouble in pregnancy or troubled pregnancy you know? What if you are in a situation where you need an abortion and you are told no? You will never be there? Never? Sure, but remember there is one good old saying never say never. Also, stop talking the Youth defence language. You have no idea how annoying it is and sounds as if you have learnt their posts by heart. If it was up to them my dear, you would be in the kitchen cooking while pregnant and looking after your other 13 kids. Say thank you to all people who have ever tried to secure some of your basic rights and are trying to do so even today. Your daughter might be thankful to them one day but you and women like yourself are a lost case.

Ceara/ Cliodhna …
Center for Disease counted 386 (death in America ) from 1972 till 2003… Form safe legal abortion…
Read the Results section for each year
15 in 03, 10 in 04, 16 in 88, 12 in 89, 5 in 90… Add them all up..
Rem 1 death is 1 to many..
I haven’t had time to gather info for UK..,

Nick…
Unfortunately I’m texting from phone so I can’t include links as you suggest..

Pregnancy does include risk but getting pregnant is a natural process ( for most) A natural part of life, even unfortunately miscarriage but abortion is not, it is the Intentional taking of life..

Also Dr Anthony McCarty consultant Perinatal psychiatrist, he said of 3 perinatal Dr’s ..with 40yr experience never recommended abortion…
Dr JOHN Sheehan perinatal psychiatrist.. They were there…

Bridget, In that case we should ban all surgery like mole removal, knee surgery and heart surgery! Sure according to you 1 death is 1 too many.

No Ceara don’t be silly.
The 1 to many comment was in response to so some comment about woman who die due to lack of abortion..

Bridget.
There were in excess of 50,000,000 terminations in the US since 1973. 386 deaths is 0.00072% of 50,000,000.
Considering the layout of termination services in the US (emergency: public, routine, private), coupled with the thriving underground, backstreet termination clinics, I am shocked that figure is so low.
You really need to get a grip.

Bridget perhaps you should go back and read the reports again [and I mean the actual reports on the CDC website not the cherry picked ones on pro-life pages] as you don’t seem to understand basic statistics and how to read them. Did you ignore the conclusion of the reports that state that the number of deaths from legal abortions has dropped significantly [by over 2/3rds] since the 1970s due to better access to health care and better follow up care. Did you read the section that talks about the massive drop in deaths from illegal abortions thanks to access to safe legal abortions from the high hundreds to virtually nil? How did you come to your number when the CDC clearly states that the number cannot be calculated because a substantial number of the abortions occurred in nonreporting states? Have you compared the number of deaths related to legal abortions to the number of deaths related to c-sections? The numbers there might open your eyes a little. Every medical procedure has risks, end of, there is no such thing as a medical procedure with zero risk. Not one person has stood up and stated that abortion procedures carry no risk but safe and legal procedures carry minuscule risk compared to back room procedures or in Irish women’s cases the added risk of traveling from another country and having no access to proper follow up care.

How about taking up the cause to have proper reproductive health care education introduced into this country, something the CDC and many others say is the biggest reducer of abortions yet something the likes of Youth Defence campaigns against.

Again, Bridget, where are the childbirth deaths? Why do you want to restrict the safest pregnancy outcome available to women?

I was asked to give one eg I had read on woman who die of abortion… I did… Even though there were many sites to chose from (but I stayed away from religious site)..

I was accused of scaremongering for even suggesting that there is death as a result if abortion..

I did read entirely ….. But I’m reporting to you the number of deaths due to abortion..nothing else..

Bridget, regardless of how many times this is repeated to you, you choose to ignore it. Women do (rarely, but it has happened) die having a legal abortion. It is far, far safer than childbirth. If you are so concerned about women’s safety, rather than simply trying to enforce your viewpoint on women, why would you be opposed to the safest option for ending a pregnancy?

Nick..

I don’t understand why you want me to give you numbers from death by childbirth… Child birth is a natural part of life as I said above, yes unfortunately with risks eg miscarriage and other complications, abortion is no natural it is intentional..

“So you Why do I want to restrict the safest pregnancy outcome”

Are you saying the safest way to deal with childbirth is abortion, maybe I’m reading your comment wrong..

I’m informing you that having a legal abortion is safer for a woman than childbirth. So regardless of your uninformed insistence that “natural” must be safer (because cancer isn’t “natural”? Heart attacks aren’t “natural?”), statistics do not bear out your silly argument that legal abortions make women less safe.

Since you aren’t recommending the safest option for pregnant women (legal abortion) be available, you clearly are, despite your words, not motivated by any concerns for pregnant women’s safety.

So we can clearly disregard your opinion on legislation for X, as you have no interest in making pregnant women safer.

Bridget why this talk of different websites? Just go to the CDC website like you yourself suggested. All the facts and figures, with pretty little charts and everything for you to read. No one has claimed that no one has died from an abortion procedure but again more women die from c-sections so should we ban c-sections? I mean they aren’t natural so surely if they result in some deaths they should be banned?

Nick..
you don’t need to repeat your self you need to listen (or rather read what I have said)
I know abortion kills women and so do you…
Childbirth unfortunate results in death but the difference between both is massive..
Intensional destruction of unborn..

We are not debating childbirth, that is permitted in Ireland ( so far) though by your accounts as you have twice stated “that the best outcome for a pregnancy is abortion”..
you obviously don’t care about the future of either the male or female of ireland as you seem to want to abort all pregnancy.!!!

Cliodhna..
Whether you like it or not I have actually read that report otherwise I would not have suggested it.. Again I was just supplying numbers of Deaths from abortion..

Abortion is Wrong and unsafe for both the woman and obviously the unborn and that is what should stay banned..
As for suggesting banning c- section that’s just silly..

Interesting that you interpret “safest” as “best” – I think the option the woman herself decides on is best.

You continue to make it clear that you see women as incubators, as well as making an incredibly irrational argument which ignores facts. With friends like you, the pro life movement needs no enemies!

Nick..
It had nothing to do with safest or best..

It has to do with right and wrong..

I’v never in my life imagined a woman as an incubator, ever…

Really,your going this way ..” friends like you etc..” ?!?! :( really

And you make it clear that you have no interest in saving women. That’s the definition of seeing women as incubators.

Nick..
I can’t seem make it any clearer can I… Best practice, as it is now (which should always safe mother)….

Well I guess I’m luck as I said above that I never see a woman as an incubator.. :)

You don’t have to say it in so many words Bridget, your lack of respect for the wishes of women to determine whether or not they have children says it all for you.

Indeed. It’s incredibly hypocritical of you to imply you care about women’s safety, Bridget, when you deny them a full range of medical options. If existing practice is so great (regardless of the deaths of Sheila Hodgers and Michelle Harte), why do you object to it being passed into legislation?

Jessica your lack of respect of the most basic right the right to life is also obvious

Well, it’s good to see you’ve abandoned any pretense of caring about women’s lives, Bridget! I guess “even one life is too many” doesn’t apply to women who die “naturally.”

Oh no, I do respect life. Life’s pretty cool and all, but I don’t think a foetus’s ‘right to life’ trumps my rights to self-determination, bodily integrity, privacy and reproductive freedom.

I have no objection to legislation, as it stand best practice for both patients, just not on the x case grounds of suicide, as I said none of the perinatal psychiatrist agree with it…

Well, if no one will recommend it, then there’s no need to worry, is there? Although as a woman with a mental health condition which would be exacerbated greatly by pregnancy, your lack of concern for my doctor and I to be able to come to the best option for me is shocking.

And I didn’t realise that in a democracy, your ill-informed opinions trumped two referendums! How enlightening.

J.. I guess that shows the difference in our respect for life means :)

Nick.. When someone’s dies naturally.. What can I say???

Oh yeah, you *clearly* have respect for life. How silly of me to not just accept my fate and want to die during pregnancy!

Nick… I’m involved with some young people with mental health issues…..I wish you well, I really do..
However my “ill informed” opinion as you say is the same as the top perinatal psychiatrist…

Nick… I’m involved with some young people with mental health issues…..I wish you well, I really do..
However my “ill informed” opinion as you say is the same as the top perinatal psychiatrist…

What does ‘dying naturally’ even mean here, anyway? Does it mean Bridget is opposed to ALL medical interventions to save a person’s life, or is it only the ones that involve life-saving abortions that she objects to?

Jessica to be honest I don’t know what nick meant by that comment
so that why I replayed “what can I say”

This government is the first that will legislate for X. Accusing them of using “dirty tricks” on this issue is exactly the same sort of language that the religious zealots use. There are some on both sides of this argument for whom attacking the government is more important than women’s health and autonomy.

That’s not true. This country has been waiting for legalisation for the X case for 21 years. Which this government and passed ones have failed to do so I think it’s right that they get criticised for this.

It’s the language enraged people use when talking about that shower of stuck-up lay clergymen in the Dail.

First the offensive debate over whether suicide is a valid reason(despite 2 referendums saying it is), then proposals that would require a woman to see FIVE psychiatrists before approval for a termination is a deliberate attempt to make X-Case terminations unavailable. Those are just some of the dirty tricks and sabotage.

Not to mention the months and months it is taking(on top of the 21 years..) – and only after the tragic death and cover-up of Savita Hallapanavar’s treatment – when the government managed to do the bank-bailout legislation over a quick pint in the Dail bar! It is sick, inhumane and offensive.

Legislation for X – which the government voted down *twice* in 2012 – will be wrested from this reluctant government by the majority of people angrily demanding it and *not* bestowed unto us like a gift.

You can hardly blame them for being cautious when this is how the abortion industry treats the law;
http://m.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/mar/23/abortion-forms-pre-signed-spot-checks

The country has not been waiting for “legalisation for the X case” because the X case is the existing law. What’s missing is having the facility actually available.

What’s depressing is that abortion rights campaigners have been sucked into presenting X as a the key issue, when it isn’t. Few of the thousands of abortions performed on Irish women every year have anything to do with saving their lives. As a society you can either accept or refuse these abortions.

This being Ireland, we do neither. We accept them, as long as they are done in England. And we keep having the same long-settled argument about a tiny proportion of cases, over and over and over again.

Just a point, Emily: the only law here is in the Constitution. The X Case has not been legislated for, and that is what is being waited on.

That’s not correct, Conor. Everything is legal unless made illegal. The Supreme Court ruled that article 40.3.3 did not make it illegal for X to have an abortion (in Ireland), and therefore it was legal. No further legislation was ever needed.

They could do with getting rid of the legislation that sets out life imprisonment for procuring a miscarriage though, because at present our constitution says the opposite..

Frankly, those fears have little relevancy more or less anywhere in the Western world. Women don’t have abortions on a whim and they don’t have abortions because they want a baby with blue eyes or whatever. Dismissing important decisions made by women about our own health, welfare, family and happiness as ‘casual’ or ‘designer’ is just insulting, but sadly not terribly surprising – because so many anti-choice arguments have nothing to do with saving babies and everything to do with shaming, punishing and controlling women who dare to have sex.

Well Said Jessica. That’s all it really is about, us women should be shamed and punished for daring to have sex.. After all – we’re supposed to only have sex to procreate, whereas men can have as much as they like..

Indeed. Compare that to the 4,500 that left Ireland to get one…

So you assume all their lives were in danger? Because that’s what this article purports to be about

All to save lives? Surely you don’t honestly believe that?

Not at all, quite the opposite, but I don’t understand why one is so overtaken with a minority of cases… That is, cases that don’t even make up one percentage point of the total number!

But James you want to change the whole law of the land allowing abortion for “a minority of cases”…
Legalisation for Best practice for both patients as it is now is much better (and safer for the unborn)..

Neither do i. The way people go on here you would swear tens of women are dying a day. You work in the medical profession so you might be able to tell me how many women have died as a result of not being given access to a abortion since the X case?

The happy things is they mostly don’t, because the UK cares for them when Ireland throws them out.

Michelle Harte to name 1 and 1 is 1 too many.

Terry, we don’t know how many have died because we can’t even count our numbers in line with WHO guidelines!
We have a registered MMR (death rate of expectant mothers) of approximately 6 (hovers around this), but estimates put it at double this were we to count as per the WHO guidelines.

More lies… she was dying of cancer.
It will be intresting to see how many show up tonight compared to the pro-life protest.

Bridget, if I am unwilling to act on best practice because of a disparity in law, then yes, yes I would very much like the law to be changed!

Doesn’t matter how many show up. The people have already spoken in two referenda. You are in the minority Terry. Deal with it.

Terry, Michelle Harte wasn’t dying of cancer when she asked for a termination… The time lapse and delay in treatment meant condition worsened…

She died of cancer after being refused chemo as she was pregant and the delays caused by the ethics comittee & having to travel while seriously ill for an abortion before she could have the treatment needed contributed to her death.

Well James I guess those woman who had life saving procedure done last yr were lucky to have a doctor who didn’t share ur opinion

They were lucky because their cases were black and white. Not because their doctor was afraid to act…

Bridget, you never answered me the other day.. Why did you vote not to exclude suicide as a reason for termination exactly, because all you’ve given so far are vague pronunciations about how it was pro life voting this way, yet the text is at odds with what you say, please clarify..

As an Irish citizen I have a right to speak up for the protection of another Irish citizen who is unable to defend his/her self..

Irish constitution grants unborn the right to life.. Why do you feel you have the right to denie them their right??

Universal Declaration of human Rights UDHR, first line “recognition of the Inherent dignity…..of all members of the human family.

International Convention on Civil and Political Rights. ICCPR Article 6(1) every human being has the inherent right to life
ICCPR not only protects human beings during the pre-natal period of life under paragraph 5 it protects them as holders of human rights.
Article 6(5) implicitly recognised that the right holder is the new Human
Being that had come into existence at conception… Why do you want to take their rights away??

4.. Convention on the rights of the child (CRC)
9th paragraph “The child, by reason of his physical and mental immaturity needs special safeguard and care including appropriate legal protection, before as well as after birth… Why do you want to take away their protection??

Chief Justice Murry said the human embryo is generally accepted as having moral qualities and a moral status..

“If you don’t want an abortion don’t have one”, I have heard that said soo many times but really what a silly thing to say

That’s a bit simplistic Vincent. The Savita case showed how unprepared we are for abortion cases where the life of the mother is at risk. In her case it was a medical complication. Suicide is one of the other risk factors.

Yup, apologies! Elaborate?

(I’m paraphrasing)

Me; Abortions to save lives are already happening

You; What about 4,500 women going to England?

Me; Are you saying all their lives were in danger?

You; Not at all! That’s a tiny minority!

I don’t see your point

Legislation for X isn’t the end point, it’s a start point. That was my point…

Yep, so you’re saying that legislation on X is the thin end of the wedge – exactly what the pro-life movement fears – and then you’re surprised they resist it?

Well, yes actually! It’s ok though, the gov will be forced to act when the EU starts handing out fines and when we look at third world countries passing us out in terms of MMR… As with all socially desirable laws in Ireland.

Chuck, you talk about granting women reproductive rights as if it was a bad thing.

The X-case is an important start; but that is all it is, a start.

James, don’t engage with him. You have medical training while he simply regurgitates anti-choice spin, misinterprets information and is generally just silly. Let the begrudgers off to be negative and we shall focus on the positive moves towards legislation.

James may have medical training (he’s got a picture of a doctor after all!) but he’s talking about the law

The EU isn’t going to hand out any fines and the ECHR can’t

John, you talk about abortion on demand as if it were a right – it isn’t

“A starting point..”

“Socially desirable” to terminate the unborn…

What a world we live in..

Yes Bridget, what a world it is where we consider the ramifications of *not* forcing unwilling women to stay pregnant and bear unwanted or terminally ill children! Goodness, it’s almost as if that would suggest we have more right to determine our own life and happiness than the contents of our wombs!

The EU can, and will most likely end up fining Ireland as a result of our failure to implement this legislation.
Failure to implement EWTD will result in a fine. Failure to implement septic tank charge resulted in a fine. Failure to implement X will result in a fine.

The ECHR does award damages, Chuck. Not sure where you had your law degree awarded from.

That’s your opinion Chuck, not an agreed fact.

My opinion on the other hand is that women are more than capable of making their own choices. They are no less rational than you or me.

Sadly, judging from some of the comments here, this does not seem to be an agreed fact either.

I stand corrected, they gave it about 20 seconds.. Better than nothing!

Shanti is it on the website? Cant find anything about it

Don’t see anything about it on the website. The mention on the news was very brief, and ironically – followed closely by a story on how we have a suicide crisis that cannot be ignored..