I’m sure that those who struggled for your right to vote which ever way whimsy will take you on voting day would feel that their sacrifice was worth while.

Sheila byrne i understand what your saying,but i dont know what to believe anymore..it seems to me all politicians are the same..and im sick of them..

@Sheila If the people that fought for you right to vote saw what “democracy” has become they would turn in their graves. Let’s stop labouring under the illusion that our voices can change anything. Democracy is a myth, and as long as there are people withvested interest who more buying power than ‘joe the plumber’ to coin the term, the rich stay rich.

To be pedantic; nobody has the ‘right not to vote’, they have the freedom to refrain from doing so.. a freedom which wouldn’t exist if a majority availed of it.

How can anyone who votes yes say they are looking after their children’s future!

All I can say is that I am now thankful that I dont have children. It must be really frightening and dis-heartening for everthose of you with children knowing that may well be spending their adult life working to pay long deceased bondholders or living abroad because there will be no work here. VOTE NO NO NO NO NO NO

I have 4 Ann. Each of them owe 40k as thing stand today. That’s assuming 100% of people find work in the private sector. In reality on 50% will so the really owe 80k each. For what?

Quality post Declan, and very well said!

Thanks Chooon, please share on your Facebook of you wish (copy & paste) thanks!

I certainly haven’t been bullied into voting yes. I decided all by myself!!!!

Declan I swill not be bullied either . Well said and well written. I will be voting No.

I can only think of one good reason for voting yes. When Kenny returns to Merkel informing her that Ireland has rejected the toxic deal. He will be sacked and replaced. Well…
Hang on…. I’m voting no!

ESM funding: “Creative accounting” and not large enough.

“The usual European response to such a stand-off is the use of creative accounting. I have heard the suggestion that one could “stretch” the callable capital of the ESM. That would leave the magic number of €211bn untouched. But it would also mean that the total rescue capacity can be no higher than €500bn at any time. The outcome would still look more like a toy pistol than a “big bazooka”. It took the markets several weeks to understand the significance of the recent political and economic developments in Spain. It may take some more until Germany’s stance on the ESM is understood.
But it is only if you consider the two together that the real significance becomes clear.
The current ESM is big enough to handle small countries, but not Spain. I expect Madrid eventually to apply for a programme, specifically to deal with the debt overhang of the Spanish financial sector. But even a minimally enlarged version of the ESM will not be big enough.”
Financial Times

Excellently articulated Declan!

we need a revolution to rid society of the parasites that are destroying IRELAND…keep the little we have vote NO

National debts are never paid off in one generation. That said, your inaccurate measurement of debt is comparably lower than others internationally.

Also please don’t be so simplistic as to argue that if some high earners only earned an average wage our economic situation would be any better, the root cause and size of the deficit clearly shows otherwise.

Yep, foist on it your children. That’ll work.

“Rob Power”. What an appropriate name for a Yes voter. Something Freudian about it

The fund that will provide stability and certainty for Ireland.

“EU finance ministers gathered in Copenhagen are poised to decide precisely how much firepower their new rescue fund – to be launched mid-year – will have. A draft communiqué suggests that as of mid-2013, presuming no new bailouts have been required in the interim, the combined lending ceiling of the future ESM and existing EFSF bailout funds will be set at 700 billion euros (500 billion pledged to the ESM plus the roughly 200 billion already committed to Greek, Irish and Portuguese rescue programmes).
Up to mid-2013, if 700 billion proves to be insufficient — i.e. someone else needs bailing out — euro zone leaders will be able to bolster it with the 240 billion euros as yet unused in the EFSF, according to the draft, although German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble said last night that 800 billion should be the absolute limit.
Sorry, there’s more. Because the ESM will not have its full 500 billion euros capacity on day one – it will build up over time – the real available figure for the next year is more like 640 billion euros. Confused? You should be.”

Reuters

Excuse my language Steve. But your f*****g spot on mate.

Well there’ll certainly less likelihood of us rolling out of our beds by accident…….

Yeah you really showed them with your big ‘strap on’…..

What a tard!!!

The problem is that people are leaving instead of fighting this. You said it yourself “the way the Irish sit back and take everything from the govt is pathetic”. It is. So the solution is to leave?

I don’t know what a tard is joe but I am assuming its derogatory towards me… Cheap!

I had no choice but to leave! I don’t do the dole, not that I am criticising anyone on the dole some people different situations and circumstance!

I think you have a nerve Joe Hunter. I’m with Peter and Censored on this one. Fine, leave if you want, but don’t start insulting those that are willing to stay and fight for their country. Stick your strap-on where the sun don’t shine!

I agree with you i’m sick of listening to the Yes and No sides now.

Don’t know, I think I could watch Clare Daly telling Joan Burton shes some neck and calling her on evading every single answer all night. It was excellent.

Mary Lou and Clare Daly were excellent tonight on rtept. They wiped the floor with Joan Burton and Dimmy Tooley, sorry Timmy Dooley. Their passion for Ireland was inspirational.

Wow ! Where does one begin? …. Bitter much ! And just does not make any sense…

@karswell
Spot on. Very elegantly written

Ah, the lovely Ms Chester. Thank you for your comment. Nothing for me to be bitter about my dear. I’m only concerned that well-minded people will use their vote as a protest, and so unintentionally lend support to people that would maim and scar this country far more than those responsible for current mismanagement.

It is so generous for someone like yourself to volunteer to be an example to my points above. Extremely gracious of you, you have my sincere thanks.

Firstly, I am definitely not a Sinn Féin supporter. Yes the current situation plays into their hands but it was and is not of their making. When the govt screws up the opposition benefits. There is no alternative opposition in the Dáil, SF are perceived as the leaders of the opposition as FF grow increasingly irrelevant in the minds of the majority due to the similarity of their policies to FLab (FG/Lab, sorry couldn’t resist).

You comment on the behaviour of a majority of SF, is this from personal experience? Is it based on comments here as if it is it hardly compises a majority does it?

I personally would be interested in a debate on SF’s policies rather than their history but can understand how many mistrust them based on their history.

Karswell
You are hillarious , NOT , but you are very wrong in everything you say . Your comments are misleading and your use of scare tactics are very unfair. But you know this. You are not being fair to the good decent people of this country who are afraid of the government, unlike myself who see you for who and what you are. You would want us all to roll over and go away and be quiet . But when someone like yourself gets so rattled by someone like me, it gives me a warm fuzzy feeling that I am doing and saying all the right things to show you up. I will never be shut up by your comments unless you stand up and speak for the people and not your bank accounts….

I mean. I disrespect to the voting public, but the government, the political parties, the radio, newspapers, television and new media have added to the fear, confusion and uncertainty. In retrospect, I regret the choice I made in the ballot box last year. I am equally guilty of making unwise political decisions. I fear that if Ireland pursues an isolationist course, we will tear ourselves to pieces. I’ve watched this website as people, all of them intelligent, thoughtful and articulate, have progressively become more vicious and entrenched, hunkering down and snarling at one another.

It certainly doesn’t appear that Karswell was rattled in any way, despite claims to the contrary by people attempting to dismiss his opinion.

Disclaimer: No Political affiliations here. I don’t care what party it is or isn’t so long as I agree with their policies and feel they have some credibility.. Have to admit, its a shallow pool..

I’m afraid I fail to see the logic of your conclusions Karswell. You are correct about the protest votes etc, but personally I don’t see SF getting a majority, at least not as long as Adams or McGuiness are in prominence. Perhaps if these two were to step out the support could rise, but we would not know unless it happened, anything else is mere conjecture.
I notice around here that SF are always linked back to the Troubles, as though they had nothing to do with the Good Friday agreement, surely both are equally important? Why only consider one or the other when both have had such a dramatic impact upon the lives of the Irish people? While the people of Ulster see them as democratically elected leaders, many here continue to see them as terrorists.. Surely the people of Ulster who bore the brunt of the troubles would have more reason to hold a grudge?

With regards their using emotive language etc, I know what you are referring to, however, the barrage of logical fallacies used by politicians is not exclusive to SF, it’s not even exclusive to Ireland. Whenever I watch politicians speak on TV I play a little game of “spot the fallacy”, they are abundant, you cannot lay that solely at the feet of SF, unless of course you actually meant to say that it is standard politico-speak and failed to clarify.

Now, as we are on the subject of fallacy.. Your projections for what could happen if SF got into power are steeped in them.. The actual fact is that we do not know what having an SF majority in the Dail would bring, we have no track record (unlike other parties), all we have is guesswork – and that is not fact. You have used appeal to spite, appeal to fear, appeal to consequences of a belief, slippery slopes and more besides, then you launch into a hasty generalisation and attack about their supporters, what this is based on I do not know, but you could easily say the same for hardline supporters of *any* party. Again, like the fallacious political rhetoric, this is not exclusive to SF supporters.. The intolerance to others points of view is pretty widespread, and on this site particularly it appears that being called a “Shinner” is supposed to be some sort of insult.. The ignorance and ad hominem attacks are down to the individuals posting them, it’s not down to their political affiliations.

To be quite frank, I find your comment just as fallacious as the nonsense spewing from ALL of our supposedly credible ministers.. But as I said, I find tremendous fault with your logic, nothing more..

Shanti Om. The voice of peace! Onwards we go…

A 30% cut in dole, pensions etc. is a small price to pay for our sovereignty.

More importantly it will force the govt to cut spending on useless quangos etc.

In a few years we will return to growth and dole rates etc. can be increased again as exchequer income rises

Alternatively we can sell our souls to pay debts of foreign investors whom we owe nothing

No it would mean a 33% cut in politician and public ‘servant’ wages. This might bring them somewhat closer to average European norms.

And the little people will be saying NO. So what if I have my social welfare cut by 30%, I’ll live on beans and toast, but let me tell you this Barry, should that happen I will be outside the Dail everyday calling for Edna and MeHoles head. Revolution is born from oppression, poverty and misery.

It’s coming anyway. Borrowing more money in a further bailout just delays the inevitable – and pushes us in deeper indebtedness.

Barry, you are repeating the falsehood that we would have to make that adjustment overnight. This is patently not true. You may argue about what rate this money would be available to us, but there is no argument to be made about whether or not we will have access to funding.

If the citizens of the Euroarea’s most populus and influential nations are taking their government to court it from ceding their sovereignty to a federal Europe and diluting their interest
Why should the Irish people passively accept this?

“The bailout policy of the Chancellor in the debt crisis is once more faced adversity: The former Justice Minister Herta Däubler-Gmelin wants to appeal, together with other planned permanent constitutional complaint against the euro rescue ESM and the European fiscal pact. The Alliance, comprised of the organization “more democracy” also belong to the liberal voters and the party ÖDP, has announced the appeal in the event that there is no referendum on the ESM and the Fiscal Pact to tighten fiscal discipline in 25 of the 27 EU countries will be.

Main criticisms are loud Däubler-Gmelin, the ESM that the question of liability remains high in Germany remains unclear. With the euro rescue package and the Fiscal Pact, the fiscal and legal control of the German parliament would be unduly curtailed. “The Rubicon is crossed towards a European federal state”, the constitutional lawyer Christoph Degenhart said on Thursday in Berlin. The law professor at the University of Leipzig, together with the former Federal Minister of Justice for action leaders announced a constitutional complaint.”

Frankfurter Allgemeine

Thats great news Sean, thanks for sharing.

@Barry. Add higher public service pay, TDs, ministers, tanaiste and The Führer plus 100% of quangos, pensionable allowances and semi state fat cats and I’d call that an excellent start. You have my vote

You should feel honored to have the right to vote, and exercise that right accordingly. Look at the state of things in some other parts of the world. Hundreds of thousands of people are fighting today for the chance to have some say in their own future.

Mensah

You really should vote (and vote NO). This referendum is likely the most important event since the formation of the state.

I am appalled, after all the events of the last 5 years or so, people can have any faith whatever in either the competence of mainstream politicians or that they actually represent citizens’ interests, or both.

We should also realise that if the real ‘powers’ see a yes vote in these circumstances, they will be greatly emboldened to pursue policies that will become much worse.

In as succinct a piece as I’ve thus far seen, Charles Hugh Smith explains the underlying agenda & forces at work.

http://www.oftwominds.com/blogmay12/EU-neocolonial5-12.html

Extract::

“Forget “austerity”and political theater–the only way to truly comprehend the Eurozone is to understand the Neocolonial-Financialization Model, as that’s the key dynamic of the Eurozone.

In the old model of Colonialism, the colonizing power conquered or co-opted the Power Elites of the region, and proceeded to exploit the new colony’s resources and labor to enrich the “center,” i.e. the home empire.

In Neocolonialism, the forces of financialization (debt and leverage controlled by State-approved banking cartels) are used to indenture the local Elites and populace to the banking center: the peripheral “colonials” borrow money to buy the finished goods sold by the “core,” doubly enriching the center with 1) interest and the transactional “skim” of financializing assets such as real estate, and 2) the profits made selling goods to the debtors.

In essence, the “core” nations of the E.U. colonized the “peripheral” nations via the financializing euro, which enabled a massive expansion of debt and consumption in the periphery. The banks and exporters of the “core” countries exacted enormous profits from this expansion of debt and consumption.

Now that the financialization scheme of the euro has run its course, the periphery’s neofeudal standing is starkly revealed: the assets and income of the periphery are flowing to the Core as interest on the private and sovereign debts that are owed to the Core countries’ commercial and central banks.

This is the perfection of Neofeudalism. The peripheral nations of the E.U. are effectively neocolonial debtors of the Core countries’ banks, and the taxpayers of the Core nations are now feudal serfs whose labor is devoted to making good on any bank loans to the periphery that go bad. “

Mike

this is basicly sociology 101. All first year sociology students are taught this in their first week at university and the concept is not only very easy to grasp but also basic common sense. Why people see this situation as something other than what it actually is (market manipulation), as set out by your quote, amazes me. The Franco German politicos and beaurocrats were well aware of what the banks where up to and allowed it to happen as they knew it was in their best interests in the long run.