Exactly! Religion does not hold the copyright to ethics and morality! These can be explained by scientific means. Even monkeys have the ability to show ethics and morality in acting compassionately in ensuring their society is a good place to live. If anything religion has interrupted this idea that we can all live in peace and harmony.

Reintroduce the Trivium and Quadrivium!

The schools in question were proposed for the switch by the Catholic Church. There is still strong demand by parents for Catholic public schools and thus will rightly remain denominational but this change is just making supply meet demand.

Robert has it in a nutshell. What this report is about is facilitating parental choice of school model.

Lol!

Brilliant comment Liam. Made me laugh. And if I can laugh at something to do with the CC today I’m feeling a little bit better.

You should have put a name down years ago. Name “Baby X Duffy”, D.O.B. “some time in the coming decade”….

There should be an equality of choice. If parents want to send Johnny to a Catholic school, that should be facilitated. If parents want to send Johnny to a non-denominational school, that should also be facilitated. Clearly parents wanting to send their children to non-denominational schools are disadvantaged in many areas and that needs to be remedied.

what about johnny himself? does he not have a say?

This report has nothing to do with “kicking religion out of the school system”. If that’s what you believe it’s about, you are going to be sorely disappointed….

Maybe not but it’s a good start, by all means teach children about religion. It would be good for them to see the wide variety of religions out there and let them decide if any of them are of interest to them but religious schools only encourage sectarianism, catholics v protestants, muslims v jews it’s all well and good talking about parents having choice but for the overall good of the country surely getting rid of a sectarian education system is better than pandering to desire of a minority of parents who will insist on religious education for their kids in school, state schools should be secular and for all creeds and colours it’s not the place of the state to provide religious indoctrination of any kind.

Cyril Read this piece of crap :

“Guided by our Lady with arms outstretched we welcome all to share in our dream of working and learning in a Catholic and all encompassing environment, striving so that everyone may reach their true potential, building a strong foundation for future endeavour”.

Bunscoil Mhuire is a Roman Catholic school. The ethos of our school is based on the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Roman Catholic Church, under the protection and guidance of our Lady. Our ethos is inspired by the example provided by the life of our Saviour and the loving care of our Mother.

Bunscoil Mhuire is a co-educational primary school under the patronage of the Roman Catholic Bishop of Cloyne. The school aims to promote the full and harmonious development of all pupils: cognitive, intellectual, physical, cultural, moral and spiritual, including a living relationship with God and other people and promotes a Christian philosophy of life.

The state is funding this sort of superstitious nonsense.

Jack the reason why religious schools in UK and USA outperform public schools is because they are private and elitist. It has nothing to do with the schools themselves. Studies have shown that kids from the same postal codes and income demographics that go to State schools perform as well as those in private religious schools. But the ethos that religious schools instill is that when reality gets too tough we can retreat into the inner world of the delusions in our head. The PIGs countries with exception of Greece were all former Catholic countries with this type of education model. Greece is Orthodox Christian which is similar. This is just one practical consequence of this type of ethos. It affects more than just religion by affecting our ability to think critically.

Cyril,
Catholic Schools in UK are Publically Funded.
“According to Ofsted inspectors, 73% of Catholic secondary schools are good or outstanding, compared with 60% of English schools nationally. At primary level, 74% of Catholic schools are rated outstanding or good, compared with 66% nationally.”

I am not avocating that the best way to teach is Religious based but I say the Religious schools have generally a stronger ethos than completely state run. So before we throw out the baby with the bath water can we think first?

Religious schools do have a cultural issue (create by the teachers and pupils) that could be lost in a rush to secularation.

@Jack this is a case of the religious selectively using evidence. Just because there is a slight increase in grades in Catholic schools in the UK and US does not imply it has anything to do with religion. The faith based schools are older than state run schools also they are less. It is simply a case of a niche market set up where parents believe they will get a better education. The reason why they get slightly better results is because of the determination of ambitious parents to get their children the best education possible. I know of highly ambitious parents who will lie and go to church and pretend to be religious to get into these schools. The evidence shows study after study that it is the demographics of parents and not the type of education in these schools that gets better results. There is absolutely no reason why the same niche market of what parents perceive are good schools could not establish itself within a similar education model but one that does not teach religion. The same teachers and staff will still be there. Do you think for one second that branding children with Iron age fables is the reason why faith schools appear to do better? Of course it is not. If you don’t take my word for it how about reading this article on a news paper well known for its Atheist bias (Note Sarcasm)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-421361/Faith-school-education-better-others.html

This issue was dealt with on the documentary Faith School Menace where Richard Dawkins presented more evidence of the post code effect. If you want yet another argument why this is nonsense. Why is it that higher percentages of Atheists are to be found among University graduates than early school leavers and those of the prison population? The fact that the Iona Institute still spouts rubbish statistics like this as well as bullshit evidence that praying to their imaginary friend produces results is yet another argument why religious are not well placed for making evidence based argument. While Richard Dawkins is certainly biased toward Atheism it is clear that he understands causality and proper scientific scrutiny of argument.

Even the Bishop of Oxford can see that these schools are not the way forward. They are socially divisive.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2011/apr/22/limit-forces-faith-join-humanists-religious

middle class students perform better than working class students, most middle class students are white, thats why white students outperform black students. very few black students go to catholic schools so the stats are in their favour, nothing to do with religion just privilege

I agree to an extent DJ. People should be allowed to believe what they like and should have the option to go to a school of their own denomination. On saying that, the state should not be funding the teaching of fairytales as facts. If people want to go to a catholic school or indeed a school of any religion, the school should be funded by that particular religious order and not by the state.

Children are treated like possessions by their parents and in doing that, parents think they can teach their children anything they want. In my opinion (and I accept it would be impossible to implement), christening of children under 16 would be banned.

I was merely expressing an opinion on what I think should be taught in schools. You are entitled to your response.
Indeed, plural does mean more than one but when you have a state sponsored religious education system, Christianity is going to take preference since it is the country’s official language. Muslims, Hindus, atheists etc might be rushing to get places but do you think they are learning about Jesus? Those parents ask for their children to be exempt from religion classes.

So there are kids who will be left out for an hour each day. There will be children basically ignored when Communion and Confirmation come around. If you want a pluralist society then the state must be a secular one and if you want to teach your children about Jesus etc then do it in the home or set up a Sunday school. Do it in your own time with your own money, the government shouldn’t be paying for it.

Keep your religion at home and in your churches. It has no place in a school.

“A true pluralist society, remember plural means more than one, allows for all to live according to their beliefs and traditions, without discrimination, prejudice and resentment from any other group.”

Yes, and currently the non-religious are discriminated against in our state-funded education system. People who are not religious would like to have their children educated in a country whose laws don’t specifically mandate that religious education is the most important thing they’ll do in school.

I’d much rather have children educated within a Human Rights based ethos than a judgemental, discriminatory one. Faith based educational institutions have no place in modern society.

Teresa, you list one of your activities as “god” so you’ve probably been programmed what to think. This means that your opinion is not the result on any rational process and can therefore be discounted

Well said Treasa. Pluralist in Ireland means anti-Catholic, and Ruari and his ‘pluralist’ Labour intellectuals have been waiting for this putsch for years. He’ll be busy with the 3rd level students though for a while I think.

Treasa, I am not sure if you read the Article but 96% of primary school are run by the Catholic Church and paid for by the State. This could hardly be called pluralism and is paramount to a state sponsored religion. I have no issues with personal worship within the confines of the law but there should be an impenetrable veil between the state and a specific religion to ensure a truly inclusive and pluralistic society.

Yes Liam we are all entitled to our opinions. What I’m saying is that it is right that there are more schools for people who are not practising Catholics but Catholic schools are Catholic schools and have every right to exist in the State. To say otherwise is to be acting in a very intolerant tyrannical way. And I can assure you that what the Educate Together schools want to teach is not value free or religion free. I read a few months ago that the person in charge of the curriculum in the ET schools wants to teach Atheism! And she considers human beings as ‘scraps of energy’.

I most certainly would not want my child to come home from school to tell me that her/his teacher says that s/he is a scrap of energy! I mean seriously.

@Liam Byrne please read above.

@Aoife Religion in a Catholic school ie a school for Catholic education and formation, IS the most important part of the day. It prepares the child for life not just for ‘the economy’ or to be good citizen. We have every right to send our children to a Catholic school with Catholic formation. But you too have the right to do what you want to for your children. So may I suggest that you do what the RCC did and set up your own schools instead of coveting ours. Make the sacrifices that our ancestors did. Do some fundraising. Get some community spirit going and maybe even ask the government for a little help. This will also help you take pride in your endeavour. And then teach them what you like. That would be your business.

@James The greatest human right is the right to life of the unborn. The Catholic Church is the main teacher of this human right. Every other human right follows from this one foundational right. Take away that right and any form of education that promotes anti-life ‘teachings’ is meaningless.

@Paul I believe what I believe not because I have just been told it but because I believe it to be true and have thought it out over a long period of time. I have spent a long time on this journey and in fact is is totally bigoted on your behalf to say that to believe in God is irrational. It is also shockingly ignorant in the true sense of the word. Were you to study the faith for any length of time in any serious way, you wouldn’t make such silly statements.

atheism cant be taught, its the absence of a belief, how would the absence of something be taught?

@Waffler have a read of this http://www.into.ie/ROI/Publications/OtherPublications/InTouch/2011/March2011/InTouchMarch2011.pdf page 29 – Fionnuala Ward calls atheism a ‘belief system’ – and this is what ET schools have in mind. They want to indoctrinate kids that atheists believe there is no God and then they wish to educate them as to why there is no God. That’s quite dangerous and destructive and negative.

The Christian faith teaches that God is love. Love others. Don’t be selfish. Think of others. Be kind. Be patient. And in fact what they teach in most schools is so banal that it doesn’t even come close to doctrine.

This lady is the primary education officer for Educate Together schools. If I were a parent sending my kids to ET, I would have grave reservations. In fact I wouldn’t do it. They have their own agenda as above shows. And that agenda is not netural.

Tolerance and morals classes?

Ethics classes.

The home!

Religion isn’t necessary to help children to grow up to be good people.

dont you mean religion teaches intolerance?

Science, Maths and English should be used to replace R.E. Hell, you could give the kids an hour of “day dream” time and it would be more beneficial. Kids shouldn’t be taught to “tolerate” others, they should be shown how there is no difference between them and others that needs to be “tolerated”.

Chinese, Physics, Computing, German, Spanish, Biology, Chemistry, Civics……….

How about playtime where they are encouraged to speak to their imaginary friend with magical powers?… oh, hang on……..

The horse hasn’t bolted for the kids in school now, or for the kids too young to be in school yet or not yet born.

I think you’ll see that I said its a step in the right direction but its annoying to see it only done now when it should have been done years ago! Hence the bolting of the horse.

Ah, ok. That’s not exactly what that saying means.

You say “the state” as if it was a permanent entity. Truth of the matter is those that were running the state when these atrocities occurred are long gone. Thankfully “the state” in it’s current form is trying to make a change.

The same can’t be said for the Catholic church however and the same boys club is still in charge.

Closing the door after the “horse has bolted” makes sense if you’re planning on getting another horse. Sure, something useful should have been done about it years ago but now is still better than when another generation has passed. “The State” is a monolithical entity. The people who make up the state are not.

Education should never, *ever*, be about ‘going through the motions’ simply because it’s traditional.

Yes, I would like to indoctrinate my children with the notion that religion is what cavemen used to do.
Thanks for that, I’ll have to write that down for future reference.

Pluralism means accepting everyones right to freedom and freedom of expression. It gives you the absolute right to express your beliefs and it gives me the right to refute them as being silly. The US constitution bans the teaching of creationism and religion in school despite a majority of parents in Bible Belt states wanting religion taught. This is because reality is not democratic. We cant vote on it. It is what best evidence says it is. That is pluralistic. Your idea of pluralism is accepting tribal fiction be on a par with science and maths. No its not. I dont expect you to be an Atheist. I support your right to go to church. I support the rights of priests and religious to preach. What I do not support is ignorance being taught to vulnerable kids in school at an age before they learn the wisdom to mock such things.

Religion as we know it was founded by uneducated dessert dwellers. I don’t feel people who practice it are scum – my mother practices her religion. My father was a devout catholic.

I just don’t think it has any place in a modern grown up society.

“Tradition” the biggest excuse for discrimination and bullying there ever was, slavery was once a ‘tradition’, so was bigotry and sectarianism but thankfully most of us have moved on from such ‘traditions’. Are you referring to the communion and confirmation rituals which most Irish school children go through? I think your confusing ‘tradition’ with hypocrisy on that one given most families know full well that religion is indeed bullshit but go along with this facade anyway “for the sake of the kids” that’s the usual excuse bleated out by parents who never set foot inside a church for years on end but then proclaim themselves religious usually at funerals, weddings, christenings, school application time or religious rituals as mentioned above. Religion has no place in education where facts are important and yes education is also about teaching good behaviour and ethics but that too is the responsibility of the parents, if people want religion then go to a church, synagogue, mosque or whatever other building or site which serves that purpose don’t expect the state education system to teach a religion by all means teach kids about religions as part of their studies so they can see for themselves the wide variety of belief systems that people have conjured up.

All the more reason atheism needs to be explained and treated like any other faith.

Worth every penny, besides what do you think the tax payer paid out in compensation to the victims of Church perverts.

if it produces one more scientist and one less priest its worth it

I would prefer the money be spent on more facilities like computers and books. Whether religion is there or not is an irrelevancy to me. I want the best acedemic results. I am well able to teach my own children to be critical thinkers, and not believe everything they hear. They will encounter plenty of things they need to make their own mind up about in life anyway.

Would labour ever get a grip and concentrate on the important things that need fixing in education!