Peter, you hit the nail on the head. Let the people have their say.
In 1983, the priests, bishops and Church hierarchy had control of the country. Church attendances were in the region of 85%, today its less than 25% and dwindling. The controlling generation are dying out with old age
But unfortunately, this is the same generation that support the establishment parties, so to put the democratic vote to the people in a referenda would be the death knell of any current Government that allowed the people overall to decide.
They would rather wait another 20 years, for Political expediency, rather than do what is right for the people, that way, they protect their pensions, legacy etc. They couldn’t care less what the vast majority people want, even though we had two referenda to prove it. :(

@ James, precisely so. Let the facts emerge.

Don’t worry James, you are now in the firing line. All nurses and doctors are now to blame according to pro life side. Following on from them accusing a grieving husband of lying about his wifes wishes, now that he has been vindicated, they’ve invented a new angle. Only days after they ridiculed Rhona Mahoney (the master of the largest maternity hospital in our country) for her insistence on all medical practitioners needing legal clarity in order to save lives, suddenly it is now the fault of the doctors for not saving a womans life within a legal grey area, a grey area in which many pro life advocates tell us is very clear, confused?? Ya so am I, hey I reckon pro life, if you can even call them that after tonight, are too! Hell knows they’d want to be!

I’m presuming (hoping) that they asked an obstetrician who kindly informed them that the differential (go to) treatment for many emergency conditions is emergency abortion.

You haven’t been looking closely enough. They have. Repeatedly.

They claim that abortion to save the life of the mother isn’t actually abortion. All this in the face of every dictionary, encyclopedia and scientific definition of abortion you can find.

From my understanding in the case where a mothers life is in danger, the baby is delivered, not suctioned out or taken apart in the womb. Thus if the life of the baby can be saved, the doctors will do everything to save the baby. This is not looked upon as the intentional killing of the child. That’s the difference!

No Rita, it’s not. The medical definition is the termination of a pregnancy or abortion. That is what is happening.

No effort is made to save the life of “the child” in an ectopic pregnancy because it’s pointless. No amount of rhetorical gymnastics will change the fact that abortion is often used to save the life of a pregnant woman. In the case of an ectopic pregnancy the fallopian tube is often surgically removed with the ectopic pregnancy contained within, that can hardly be termed “delivery”. Sometimes a procedure almost identical to medical termination is used. The exact same medications are involved.

Stephanie, I know what an ectopic pregnancy entails. Have known women in the past who have had to deal with this. In my above post I was referring to women with other life threatening issues during pregnancy. Listening to the medical professionals during the discussions in the recent Oireachtas debate, each of them said they always deliver the baby not kill them in the womb. They said their jobs were to save lives, not destroy them. They informed us that they deal will these issues on a daily basis and would not hesitate to save the life of the mother.

Really? They said they’d deliver a 6 week foetus, did they? I’m not sure we were watching the same hearings – they said they’d deliver a foetus after viability – before viability, they’d grant a woman an abortion. The medical and legal definition of abortion includes medically necessary abortions.

Ah Rita, spare us the misleading vividness.. This pump you complain of is used after a woman miscarries too, and FYI, the medical term for a miscarriage is “spontaneous abortion”, the term “miscarriage” is a euphemism. If the miscarriage is incomplete they use it. It’s not used until after the foetal heartbeat has stopped and the abortion whether spontaneous or medical has happened.

It may benefit you to read up on what is actually involved in an abortion – the journal did a very informative and factual piece a few months back. It does not help the debate for people to be misinformed, we need to look at facts and facts alone. The hysterical descriptions are fallacious.

Cheers for proving my point rita. Since savitas death and the testimonies from the heads of maternity hospitals confirming abortions are sometimes necessary to save the mothers life, the pro life side are changing the argument to focus it around what the term abortion means in contradiction with the opinions of the medical experts. A common tactic when the argument is lost and you have been proven wrong.

No probs werejammin…what a clever boy you are for coming up with that one!….lol

Rita, you are incorrect (in the extreme) to say that we do not carry out abortions intentionally is incorrect. If a mother needs a termination in Ireland she needs one as a matter of urgency, by which time all value in the foetus is disregarded. If it can be saved, it will, but the concentration is on the mother and the saving of her life.
Yes our jobs are to save lives, unfortunately sometimes medicine is not about saving lives, it’s about damage limitation, and condition management.

James, I agree with you totally in the circumstances you quoted in ur above post. You stated in a medical emergency ‘If it (baby) can be saved, it will, but the concentration is on the mother to save her life’. I say rightly so, no argument there.

James, you do come across as pretty knowledgeable on medical matter like this.
Have you any idea how many and percentage of pregnant women every year travel to England on the basis that the Irish medical system as it currently stands, can’t handle them (ie they are told, you pregnancy is abnormal, you have choice, go to England they can handle your situation better, but dont tell anyone, or stay here).?
I know that we hear figures all the time saying that having a baby in Ireland is statistically safer than the UK…. but i have to ask the question, do you think that the UK Health service doesn’t match the Irish one, or is it, we export the difficult or not-feasible pregnancies to the UK because of current Irish Medical practices. Do you really think that that the UK pre-natal services are below the Irish ones?

Dr Rhona Mahony, Master at the National Maternity Hospital

We never kill a foetus. That is not what we are about
She says occasionally doctors have to deliver a pregnancy before a baby is capable of surviving. Where there is any chance at all that doctors can preserve the life of a baby, doctors will do so, she says. She says it is always the role of doctors “to preserve life, and society should be very reassured of that”.

Response to Nick Beard…

Nick, I guess you must have missed or weren’t listening when Dr. Mahony was speaking? See below post for what she said….cheers…

Hi Cal1,
There are degrees of abnormality in pregnancy, for example, a breach birth – this is technically an abnormal pregnancy, however we can deal with it appropriately, and both mother and baby survive.
I think what you are referring to is say where a foetus is found to have a condition like Down Syndrome. The figures from the UK state that about 10,

Apologies – hit submit by accident.
The figures from UK state that about 1,000 of terminations are for Down Syndrome. There are 200,

200,000 terminations carried out in the UK each year. The figure is not a priority, nor has it ever been as the vast majority of such pregnancies spontaneously terminate.
In relation to Ireland being safer than the UK – not the case for a number of reasons: in statistics the Maternal Mortality Rate (MMR) is 12 in the UK and 6 here. Unfortunately, Ireland does not count maternal deaths that occur in a setting other than a hospital and many maternal deaths are simply not recorded as such due to lack of communication between the coroner and registration bodies. Also, if there is a possibility that there may have been other causes (heart attack) then this is also not recorded as being a pregnancy related death. Estimates conservatively place Ireland’s MMR at double the recorded rate – so 12. This is on par with the UK (and could be worse if we actually checked).
Also, the UK does not have legal ambiguity. If a mother needs termination for whatever reason one is granted.
In terms of not telling anyone – this should never be the case. A mother should not fear judgement for her actions by her doctors or nurses, it is our job to treat everyone regardless of who they are or what they’ve done in life.
Do I think the UK system is safer? I think anywhere where there isn’t legal ambiguity over the rights of the mother and foetus is safer than here. Even if termination is outlawed for every reason, at least we know the extent to which we can safely and legally practice without fearing possible legal ramifications and indeed career ramifications.

Just to add to that as I fear I made it unclear:
If I am dealing with a cardiac arrest, I know the protocol required to get the patient out of cardiac arrest. I know this by reflex – I’ve done it so often that I quite literally don’t need to even think about it, almost automatic pilot, if you will. I don’t think about the legal repercussions, or the repercussions for my career, it’s the standard protocol, and that’s the way it should be for termination.
An obstetrician should not be in a position to have to think “what if I do this, what happens me, my career, my livelihood”. Once a termination is deemed as being required, a protocol should kick in – and one should never have to stop and think of their career.
Hope all that helps Cal1

June, 2012 – Daily Mail Headline: Nearly 200,000 women in the UK had an abortion last year and for one in three it was a repeat procedure.

June, 2012 – Daily Mail Headline: teenage girls in the UK who have had at least eight abortions are being let down in the most appalling way, as 38,000 undergo termination in a single year. It seems to be abortion on demand. It’s like a form of contraception (Josephine Quintaville, Repoductive Ethics)

Of course they kill foetuses before viability – if an ectopic pregnancy is removed, you do know the foetus dies right?

And your statistics are misleading. Less than 100 women in the UK have had that many abortions – and academic research has shown that multiple abortions tend to be linked with abusive relationships (sabotaging contraception is a common tactic of abusive partners.)

Like your claim that abortions in Ireland never result in killing a foetus or that all abortions are surgical, you don’t seem to have done any research on this.

@Rita

I thougth we were discussing Ireland?

Nick, Dr Rhona Mahony, Master at the National Maternity Hospital – statement she made during the Oireachtas hearing. Notice where she says that occasionally doctors have to Deliver, not kill in the womb, before a baby is capable of surviving. Sadly, we all know and accept these things happen when a mothers life is in danger, and we accept that.

Is she lying when she says “We never kill a foetus. That is not what we are about
She says occasionally doctors have to deliver a pregnancy before a baby is capable of surviving. Where there is any chance at all that doctors can preserve the life of a baby, doctors will do so, she says. She says it is always the role of doctors “to preserve life, and society should be very reassured of that”.

Also the above are not my stats and in no way am I stating them to mislead anyone. As I clearly said, they are articles written in the Daily Mail, so take the issue of misleading information up with them. I guess they are lying too!

@Deirdre, we are. Was responding to one of the above comments…

@ Rita

Your response would be appropriate if these teenagers having 8 abortions were coming from Ireland.. and doing so because of abnormal pregnancies.

As it is, these statistics are extreme examples from another country and aren’t really relevant to whats being debated in Ireland at the moment. It’s scaremongering and doesn’t contribute to the debate.

@Deirdre, as I said I was responding to one of the above comments on abortion in the UK…

@Rita

See my last post.

Yes, the Daily Mail is pretty commonly understood to twist the facts. And no, foetuses pre-viability are not delivered. She was fairly specific about that – but I can see how someone who couldn’t even be bothered to check Department of Health stats for herself could be misled.

Also Rita – please bear in mind the context and meaning behind Dr Rhona Mahonys statement.
Here, in a country where abortion carries a life sentence to express that foetuses are “killed” would attract the ire of the pro life side. As long as the 8th amendment stands – specifically killing a foetus, ie an elective abortion is never done. An emergency abortion has the same end result but with a different intention. Foetuses are still killed, but the context is different. This was what Dr Mahony was getting at..

Dunno where the rest of my comment went – elective abortions are never carried out but emergency abortions are – the end result is exactly the same, the foetus is killed, it’s just that the intention is different. This is obviously what she meant.

Yeah, in all fairness I’ve heard the same about the Irish Independent, Irish Times and Journal…

James, a lot of very valid and knowledgeable facts raised in your points. Its a pity that people like you are not sitting on the committees right now discussing the abortion issue. You gave your inputs without prejudice, just based on know facts, and highlighting ambiguities in both the UK and Irish records. I applaud you for the detail and effort in your feedback. Thanks and well done.

Yes.. I wonder where all those commenters who were gloating and saying he was a liar when the initial notes had not recorded her requests are?

Mary; if you have legal ambiguity or a grey area you have people who are not willing to act. Doctors spend the bones of 15years training, that incorporates more dedication than any other career, bar none. There is no doctor going to risk their career for one patient, that’s the sad, sad reality of the situation.

@ Mary, bad law undermined good medicine. It was bad law which prevented medically desirable and prudent intervention by the clinicians. What a terrible and unnecessary tragedy. A woman died and died in horrendous circumstances. I feel so sorry for Savita Halappanavar and her widower and I feel sorry for the clinicians involved. It must have been a nightmare.

Keep religion and religious fundamentalism away from our laws and Constitution.

I agree completely James but to me life always takes precedent over law . I am ashamed to be Irish in this situation .
I had a daughter who is now 25 . Back then I was warned of the dangers of not attending hospital if my waters broke as it could lead to infection . I can assure you if my daughter was in Savita’s situation I would not let her sit in a hospital bed for almost a week without any treatment . I would have her on the first plane to the UK

Mary, again, I agree. Unfortunately, when your career hangs in the balance, you take a different view. Ones medical care should never play 2nd fiddle to the law.

James, i 100% accept your argument, who is going to risk their career to reduce the risk of death for someone else… )assuming they ignore the Hippocratic oath (ie supposedly the reason they practice medicine in the first place)
.
The Doctors need to know that they can do the right thing.
In Ireland, we are so stuck in the 19th century, its unbelievable. A woman goes to court in Ireland today to beg that she wants to die, and wants her husband to help her die.
She wants to know that if her husband helps her die, because she is physically unable, that he wont spend the rest of his life in prison.
What was she told? NO. He will go to prison and probably spend the rest of his life there (given his age) if he does the right and moral thing.
This country’s laws and attitude are not fit for purpose. If a Doctor did the right thing for Savita, in theory, they could spend the rest of their natural life in prison.
FF/FG/Labour have supported this attitude in the Government, the courts and the media for decades, ignoring the will of the people. Its time for this to stop. We need modern laws for a mondern (not a religeous neo-conservative people) for the 21st century. FF/FG/Labour will never deliver in the 21st century. Their ideals and idea belong in the 20th century.

I would be pretty sure existing laws allowed her to have a termination and be saved. Example ectopic pregnancies. It would appear to me to have been more like malpractice. The decision to not terminate used a non law as an excuse but a doctor in that position should have known better and acted.

JS1711, ectopic pregnancy and miscarriage are two very, very different conditions which have very very different risks attached.

I sometimes wonder about all those women that march, young girls who volunteer to distribute booklets in the center of Dublin, women that so much fight for the rights of fetuses, do they actually realize that they are basically fighting against themselves? I do not mean people who are paid for it, but simple women from every walks. I understand propaganda can have a lot of influence, but do they do it with a hope that they are never gonna be in such a situation? It is simply hard to realize how a person would advocate against themselves. This especially concerns young girls who have not experienced anything and can never be sure what awaits them.

The standard treatment for ectopic pregnancy in countries where abortion is legal is a pill.
Over here it’s a lottery whether you will be given this drug, they might wait until the tube is about to rupture and kill you, then cut you open and take out the baby, the now defunct tube and possibly the ovary or part of the uterus..

I know which I would prefer..

As the master of Holles Street Dr Rhona Mahony said “doctors need to know when they make a decision for the good of the mother they need to know they will not go to jail”. If to get to that position it means a referendum then let’s have that referendum.

@James. I realise ectopic pregnancy and miscarriage are v different. My point is a pregnancy is aborted for ectopic pregnancies due to certain death for the mother. Nature is not allowed to take its course. Medical intervention happens. I am questioning why a woman needs to be facing certain death before abortion is allowed. The possibility of death isn’t sufficient. Even when there is no chance for the foetus. It beggars belief.

I think it’s worth bearing in mind given what came out of the Oireachtas hearings that Savita was incredibly unlucky in the hospital she ended up in. I’d be pretty sure if she had been in Holles St for instance or the Rotunda she’d still be alive. The care a woman receives however should not be dependent on where she is or the willingness of her doctor to risk possible criminal prosecution and therein lies our legal quagmire. In other news the anti-choicers are awful quiet tonight.

Look at the figures from the census until people fill up the form different then we are a catholic country.

We are a Roman Catholic controlled and ridden country but hopefully not for much longer.

No. We are a country with a lot of Catholics. Big difference in the two statements.

Explain “catholic country”, if it’s a country where our lives are dictated too by a rabble of celibate old men who read and pontificate from a discredited book of fallacious fairytales then it’s a pretty shit country to live in, especially if that superstition is allowed form the basis of legislation, education and intrude upon the human rights of women.

The sooner we get a full secular state the better, you religious folk can keep your beliefs where they belong – at home with your personal god.

What sort of a country would you prefer Peter ???

Dermot, the way they’ve been carrying on I’d hardly call them celibate

I think a country where people can practice their religion, whichever imaginary friend it may be, without it interfering in the running of the country would be preferable

I wouldn’t listen to anything from the Catholic leaders anymore , with what they have been doing lately .. Don’t trust them and their man made rules anymore.. I don’t need a middleman, who might also be a pedo, to talk to God…

Well for one I’d like to live in a country where medical science dictates appropriate medical procedure.

@ Matt McNamara, a country which is humane, secular in its laws, where religious dogma and religion does not influence our Constitution and laws, and where pregnant women are valued more than a foetus.

Maybe we should just wait for the final outcome rather than try to predict and refute it beforehand.

@ mart n, chuckling. Look at the interview on Prime Time in a few minutes time. We already know that the law is dangerously defective.

“death by misadventure” if that is the inquest finding it would be a disgrace.

Peter how long do you think the inquest process will take?

Regardless of the outcome, the confusion of what the law states or doesn’t state shows that this is most definitely something that requires looking at.

@ Kerry, the Coroner has said that he will move quickly and the witnesses and documents are quite limited but this is a matter in which anything could happen. I know of one case which continued for almost 2 years but there is huge pressure to get an early verdict.

The legal problem is that the range of verdicts is extremely limited and the Coroner’s Court cannot determine guilt or culpability.

What everyone has to realise is that it is a complete joke in this country that the mother has “an equal right to life”, it would appear that the Pro-Lifer’s think that the foetus has a greater right. The child in poor Savita’s case could never have survived out of the womb, but no-one would go ahead and save Savita. The most obvious example that Doctor’s in this country feel that they are hamstrung or that they put their own personal beliefs ahead of their patient.

Brenda I’d love to know what men think of this. Since the right to life is quantified by the 8th amendment in stating that the life of a pregnant woman and the life of a foetus are equal – where do the lives of men, children and infertile women lie? Above or below the value of a foetus or a pregnant woman? Or equal? And if equal, why not specified in the 8th amendment?

At Stephanie, good question from the left field. Sadly and and I really hate to say this, Constitutionally speaking all non pregnant people are equal but for the period during which a woman is pregnant she is relegated to mere parity with a foetus. It is an astonishing and reprehensible position. Compulsory incubation is a form of slavery.

Fortunately there is the safety hatch of England except for women to ill or too poor or isolated to avail of hat option.

It is horrifying hat we are having this debate at all. The law should not be giving effect to Roman Catholic preaching.

Spot on re: women too poor and too ill or alone to seek abortion in the UK. Also if anyone is annoyed by poor women being unable to access proper medical care I suggest ye visit http://www.abortionsupport.org.uk/ and consider supporting this organisation that provides funding and support for Irish women travelling to the UK for an abortion.

@peter- I agree that the Catholic Church plays too big a role in the abortion debate. But it’s the pro-abortion side that brings them into it. I’m confident that if you reviewed references to “Church” or “Catholic” on threads pertaining to abortion on here you would find that the references emanated from abortion proponents. Ironically, their anti-abortion fervour stems more from their hatred of Catholicism than pro-life’s beliefs can be attributed to a blind faith in the Church. There’s no question that the more cynical pro-abortionists are using the prevalent dislike of the Church in Ireland to further their cause. So to the pro-abortionists on here preaching the importance of secular laws and a secular debate I would suggest that the best place to start is stop bringing the Church into it yourselves.

@stephanie-19% of healthy UK pregnancies end in abortions. You want this in Ireland? That makes us a better country, does it? More caring?

@ Vincent What did the Bishop of Elphin diocese say? Opening the flood gates to abortion when he was in the senate. Go talk to him about interference.

@kerry- you sort of proved my point, there. You’re the one quoting Bishops….

Well Vincent he was the one who said it not me. Time to tell the Bishops to shut up and let the real world deal with this? I’d be delighted if you agree.

@kerry- any bishop has the same right as you or I or Clare Daly to voice his opinion. I for one wouldn’t be listening to him but I’m pretty sure his democratic right to express his view is enshrined in our constitution.

He has no democratic right to be heard at an oireachtas hearing. If such a thing were enshrined in the constitution then TFMR would have been there too.

Also – what’s a pro-abortionist? And with regard to your question about the UK – my belief in the right to choose is unconditional. Whether 70% of pregnancies were terminated or 0.00007% were terminated, I would not force a single woman to continue with a pregnancy she did not want. What I would want to see in the UK is better promotion of contraceptives, better access and better sex ed. Because contraceptive use is easier, cheaper and healthier (in some cases).

But since you bring up percentages like that somehow has contributed to your opinion – are you one of those people who keep saying that suicide during pregnancy is rare therefore there’s no need to include it in legislation? Like letting 1 woman die is somehow ok because hey, it’s only one woman.

@stephanie- as I recall the pro-abortion lobby got to have their say in front of the Oireachtas also. Yes- 70% terminations is a nirvana, isn’t it?

It’s like the abortion as contraception argument. No woman chooses to have an abortion, the abortion is a last resort.

If a woman does not wish to become pregnant and has sufficient sex education she will use contraception. It’s easier, it’s cheaper, it’s less traumatic. If she is having an abortion it’s because something went wrong.

Make contraception free, ensure honest factual education about sex and relationships as well as the emotions involved, teach about consent! Reduce the frequency with which women may have to seek out the service in the first place. Then for those that slip through ensure that there is a safety net – one that hopefully, very few will have to use.

Always prudent to wait for facts than be guided by speculation and pressure groups.

It wasn’t in part of the medical records first released. From what I’ve read of them and my experience of medical notes in hospitals I’m taking a guess and saying maybe they were the nursing notes and the nursing staff didn’t note the request but the medics did and those are the notes that have just been released.

except when banning smoking in public places, we can be first on that alone! the smell of shame in this country would knock a horse

Why dont you give up your Irish citizenship if you are ashamed to be Irish.

We were all a bit ashamed to be Irish that day, ashamed to be living in a country still tied down with superstition and super naturalism.

Shane, she probably would have died even with an abortion. Sad but true.

If she had had a timely termination she would most likely have lived.

That’s not what I’m hearing from various doctors. What information is your comment based on.

I wouldn’t expect anything less from a pig but a grunt – back under your bridge

Brian – Midwife.

It’s not as simple as ‘our Church leaders and militant Pro-life lobby think they know better.’ There are different sides to consider and bashig one side is very unhelpful. We all have an opinion, you Shane may not agree with the pro-life side but many may not agree with you. Everyone has an opinion and all are valid. As a student of Philosophy, specifically ethics, there is no clear cut answer to any of these issus. They are very sensitive and arguing and blaming won’t do anyone any good. The poor woman is dead and it is awful but we should move on from the blame. Also alot of people are saying Ireland is in the dark, archaic ages. OK, that may be so when you compare us to countries like America or England and so on that have legalised abortion. But why give out about that? We have evolved very quickly as a country in only a very short time, the past 20 years has brought much change and relaxed laws. Things cannot change overnight.

Well done Shane, thanks for shown your level of intelligence.

Well Said Brian.

@Paula

I agree with your post & it’s a good one. My philosophy is simple on all matters in life, including abortion.

If you’re against abortion, don’t have one – but don’t ram your views down other people’s throats. If my personal view is considered, I think aborting a child is never the right thing to do – but I never ram my view down other peoples throat and never judge those who take the option.

The problem I have is with the people who seem to think they should control other peoples decisions/life.

hate to say it Shane McGivern, it took ya long enough but you’re awake now, how does it feel? the sad reality is that poor Savita is only one of many hundreds of reasons to be ashamed to be Irish since 2008

people might think you’re mad but don’t let people deny what is happening in front of all our eyes anymore. enough is enough right?

@ Brian – apologies that post was aimed at Johns reply about giving up my Irish Citizenship

Paula, I do not agree that any decision a woman has to make in her personal life is “sensitive” for any person on this planet other than herself, her partner if there is such, and people she might take into consideration. A woman’s life is not a subject of “philosophical considerations.” How would you feel if you were there with high temperature and shaking from miscarrying and people were standing and debating regarding the philosophical and ethical aspect of saving you? Has this ever come onto your mind as a matter of philosophy? The people you call pro-life and whose “ethics” you defend would actually let you die. Just think about this during your philosophical hours.

Paula, no one is asking for anything to happen over night, people are angry that since the X Case 21 years ago we have had two referendums (1992 & 2002) to try and take out the suicide clause and the people rejected it both times, meaning that the people voted to keep the risk of suicide as grounds for an abortion.

Yet still, 11 years on from the last referendum, we are still waiting on legislation and we now have a high profile case where a woman’s life may have been lost due to this failure to act upon the will of the people.

It’s not about ethics, it’s about democracy and efficiency. Two things our successive governments seem to know sweet f.a. about..

John. I’m ashamed of a lot of things going on in the States, but would never think of giving up my US citizenship.. .. They just do some stupid stuff sometimes that can be an embarrassment , but giving up citizenship is alittle extreme

Your statement is totally untrue. The teaching of the Catholic Church is clear. Where the life of the mother is at risk in a pregnancy the doctors should safe the life of the mother first but if possible should try to save the life of the baby as well. Perfect sound logic! Therefore please withdraw your inaccurate statement?

@ dermot, I am addressing the law which was driven by PLAC and the Roman Catholic Church. Three Attorneys General warned of the risk. Still the RC insisted that the Referendum be put to the people.

It is possible that RC has subtly recalibrated its position as you now outline, not all of the extreme Pro-life would accept that, see recent utterances outside the Dail but I am addressing the legal consequences.

I reiterate and repeat my assertions about the law as it presently is.

This is a textbook example of introducing specific religious dogma into a Constitution.

I say, leave religion out of the Law. Let our laws be sensible, humane, secular and free of theocracy.

Dermot.
The original wording for the 8th Amendment as submitted by these catholic anti choice groups made no reference to the mothers right to life at all. It was the government who added the mother in. So catholic teaching is, according to what they wanted in the constitution, save the baby and sod the mother.

You might want to try and change the goalposts now that Mary Robinson and all the others who pointed out the flaws in the amendment have been proven right. But the catholic stance is still very much anti woman.

@ shanti Om, I had forgotten that. The original wording proposed by PLAC supported by the Roman Catholic Church in legal terms gave absolute primacy to the interests of the foetus. There was a time when Roman Catholicism preached that the mothers life might have to be sacrificed for the sake of the foetus. That position is now seen as so extreme that Roman Catholicism had to resile from this notion of foetal primacy and reluctantly accept the notion of equality. Strange thinking!

Equality except when it comes to women performing sacraments in the church or church patronised schools or hospitals employing gay people.

It has to do with men because abortion kills male babies as well as female ones and the women didnt get pregnant in get own ! Duh

Anthony if you don’t believe a man can force a woman to have an abortion then I don’t see how you can believe he can force her not to.

*now

people are jumping to conclusions before all the facts are in. We don’t know ,firstly whether the termination would have made any difference, and secondly why it wasn’t carried out. It is worth remembering that according to the B.M.A , one to two pregnant women die of septicaemia in British hospitals every month.Abortion is not an issue there and may not be a relevant treatment in all cases. So we should wait before apportioning blame.

John, that’s what our law says. Religion dictates the law and law dictates medicine.

Yeah yeah John, your comments on the previous article regarding travellers,…

To quote you…..
“Ehmm, sorry to burst your bubble there Mooney but it’s not based on isolated incidents. The isolated incidents are where they have behaved in a manner befitting a human being.” ie Traveller act in a manner unbefitting a human being the majority of the time… am i interpreting your comments correctly?

I am sorry, people who have that attitude have little to offer any debate, except to show where extremism lies in our society.
We need to have a society that tries to draw on common sense approaches to common problems and issues, before people die. This poor woman died, because of extremism and neo-conservative beliefs that do not even belong in the last century, but the century before.
If a woman is told she is going to miscarry and she is told the baby is going to die, the least that woman can expect to receive is compassionate treatment that will bring her suffering to an end at the earliest possible opportunity. She should not have to suffer agonising hours of labour to deliver a fetus that has already passed away, or will pass away within minutes of delivery. It should be the mothers choice.
I see that the Church is complaining to the Phillipine people tonight for having passed a law that will allow people easier access to condoms etc. The Church told them it was evil. The Church also supported and praised the passing of a law just before x-mas in Uganda. The law stated that people found guilty of repeated offenses of Homosexuality should be executed.

We are far from being governed by common sense. That’s why people with no tv license end up in jail. Same as those who carry out abortions in this country.

Cal1 Mooney – In relation to that previously mentioned article, I received 188 green arrows. Your comment on that same thread received 249 red arrows. I think I can safely say I am more in touch with public opinion than you.

I also feel abortion, especially in this case, should be permissible. My comment was only to point out the futility of asking for one.

Rob, it is so sad that you are 100% right. Bankers and Politicians that helped robbed the country blind (FF , and the likes of the financial regulators) and continue to do so .. (who honestly voted for the current Government parties on the basis that they would pay off bond-holders in banks)…

These are the people who get the largest pension entitlements in the EU, they have destroyed our country… but they are sitting pretty. People who cant pay a TV license, end up in prison.

The people who refused to implement the will of the people over the last 20 years (after the 2 abortion referenda) sit ther and tell the husband of Savita that he is unreasonable for not supporting an enquirey lead by themselves. He only wants an Independent inquirey to establish what went wrong. Our Government, present and previous label him ‘unreasonable’. Like come on, they don’t give a crap. Their voter base is the over 70, neo-conservative religious wing. But, guess what… they have at coming back at them…

@Cal1 Mooney – Exactly how have you been robbed? You also say they weren’t voted in to pay off bondholders. If they didn’t we couldn’t borrow the €13B to cover our CBD (current budget deficit). The €13B would be reduced to 10 by not paying the interest and down to 8 with a wealth tax of 1% and a higher income tax rate of 55%, I’ll give you that.
Where exactly would you get the other €8B of savings required?

John, you are right … when i made my comments that “Travellers are people too,”, and that the “authorities should treat each case individually rather than collectively punishing an entire race of people”, i received an equivalent number of red thumbs, somewhere in the region of 200 RED thumbs in the space of 1 hour. I have never seen anything like it on Journal.ie.
Yes, you got hundreds of Green thumbs for suggesting that travelers are less than human. Yippety -Yi_yay for you. Its not something i would be proud of, but if it makes you happy, then be happy.

@Cal1 Mooney – You didn’t answer my question. Also, your latest comment shows what a small minded and fundamentally bigotted yourself.

John, with the greatest of respect, her comment shows pretty much the EXACT opposite of what you have suggested.

Small minded in that they fail to see the bigger picture and bigoted as they are obstinately convinced of the superiority or correctness of their own opinions and prejudiced against those who hold different opinions.

“Small minded in that they fail to see the bigger picture and bigoted as they are obstinately convinced of the superiority or correctness of their own opinions and prejudiced against those who hold different opinions.”

Pretty sums up the God squad and anti-choice brigade, dontchthink?

unacceptable justice is required

Implement the corporation tax properly at 12.5% and collect an extra 4bn. See earlier thread today. And other 4 bn can be saved thro cutting fat cat salaries/pensions, cost savings on hse drugs spend. Etc.

@Thomas Carty, how little you know, how poor your understanding, how I’ll informed your opinion is, how profoundly unfair it is that you would displace blame on to the doctors and how utterly and intentionally misleading your post is.

The blame belongs to the Roman Catholic Church and the RC inspired Article 40.3.3 which enshrines Roman Catholic Church dogma.

You have no basis to to lay that serious and wholly spurious accusation against the doctors.

I don’t think people are looking for a change in the law because a foreigner couldn’t get their way in a different country!!!! More to do with the fact that she died, possibly when it was preventable albeit with a controversial procedure.

She asked for an abortion because she was dying. The arrogance, presumption and lack of basic empathy of your post truly beggars belief. Kindly spout this spurious racist nonsense on every possible abortion related thread you can find, the revealed true nature of pro lifers such as yourself does more for the pro choice argument than I ever could. I tip my hat to you Sir, you have made my evening.

Sir I have no lack of empathy and I have fought against racism all my life probably longer than you gave been alive , you pompous individual ! My point is in reference to earlier posts saying that the only thing that matters is a woman’s choice in this matter of abortion. I pointed out that if Savita wanted an abortion because her child was female ( which she obviously did not ) would we say that the only thing that mattered was her choice . Most would say that such a reason is intolerable and immoral . Such abortions are very common in India and in my view India has no right to criticise Ireland for refusing an abortion ( if it was refused ) in view of their unethical practice of killing baby girls . What is racist about that ?

Typical response from pro life side – now lets blame the hospital and the staff! Hilarious given headline pro life advocates rubbished Rhona Mahoneys claims just last week, that clarity is required in order to enable medical practitioners to do their job and save lives!!!

@ Diarmaid, well said and well expressed.

Cheers Peter, the delusion is staggering at this stage.

They may be in the majority, absolutely. Or they may not. And there should be a referendum to find out.

Stop using “on demand”.its not somebody choosing a film on upc.its a serious life changing decision one way or the other for a woman

Read the facts.
The Irish people have been given the opportunity to remove the suicide clause from the constitution TWICE. Once in 1992 and once in 2002.

How many times did we vote to remove suicide as a clause? NONE.

If the majority are against the suicide clause then why didn’t they vote it out?
I mean, they could argue they voted wrong the first time, but the second time?

There has been two chances to prove Ireland is indeed an anti choice country. Not only did we vote against the exclusion of the suicide clause, we also voted for the right to travel and the right to information. The only conclusion that one can draw from these results is that the majority are more pro choice than you want to admit.

Pat, ‘abortion on demand’ is a silly, myopic, and wholly unhelpful term. It excludes the person using the phrase from any reasonable or logical discussion that may be taking place on this most serious of matters.

We have had a referendum!!
In fact, we have had two.
In 1992 we were asked whether the risk of suicide should be excluded as grounds for suicide, the majority said NO

In 2002, we were asked should the suicide clause be removed again, the majority said NO.
We were asked if a woman should have the right to travel to access abortion, the majority said YES.
We were asked should women be able to access information about abortion services overseas, the majority said YES.

The only conclusion that anyone can glean from these results is that the majority in Ireland are a bit more pro choice than you would like to believe..

Cian- 19% of UK pregnancies are aborted. I think it’s fair to use the term “on demand”- as figures like that suggest for some it’s just another procedure like a tonsillectomy. Or maybe you think 1 in 5 UK women’s life was at risk?

@Shanti- you’re the one that seems afraid of a referendum. Maybe you’re afraid the nation is not as pro-abortion as you suggest. Lets face it, a referendum could settle the matter for a decade and that doesn’t sit well with pro-abortionists determined to chip away at it bit by bit?

On demand is a commonly used term in this context and not one I invented, nor have I declared a view on abortion though many fellow posters seem to know my views – telepaths evidently – these “smart phones” are amazing….

Yes and up until Savita’s death we were constantly being told how safe Ireland was for pregnant women which is manifestly not the case. Just because something hasn’t happened until now doesn’t mean it cannot. And this is the second time on this thread you have argued that a woman on her deathbed pleading for a termination to save her life is some kind of Trojan horse for an abortion free for all. Your use of dog whistle phraseology makes your position abundantly clear. Clearly every hussy in the country will be stampeding off to claim suicide and get free abortions off the state because they can’t keep their legs together. Why don’t you say what you really mean?

Vincent, ditch the over quota red herring. In the UK the grounds under which a woman can have an abortion are far wider than anything that will be legislated for while the 8th Amendment remains in effect.

Funnily enough, we only ever voted on the 8th amendment once, so I would welcome a referendum to uphold or repeal the 8th amendment..

Considering the Irish people have voted to widen access to abortion rather than limit it TWICE in the time since the 8th amendment I believe it does need to be revisited.. Sorry to lay waste to your assumption, but assumptions are quite often incorrect..

@sam- I think you’ll find statistically Ireland remains a safe place for a woman to have a child. That’s not to say what happened in Galways wasn’t terrible. Let me be unequivocal, though. I absolutely do believe that the pro-abortion side have leveraged the tragedy to force their agenda. Clare Daly used a Savita rally to say the X case isn’t enough but it’s a start. That has very little to do with the circumstances in Galway, don’t you think? It’s a reprehensible tactic, but its a tactic they use the whole time. They similarly use rape as a justification for abortion on demand. They use exceptions because they know that the Irish nation is not ready or willing to follow the UK’s path. Abortion on demand is not palatable to the masses so let’s bring it in via the back door. Clear enough for you?

@shanti- you and I know that what’s coming is just the first step….the door being jinked open and after that its only a matter of degrees. There are those who don’t believe in setting off on a journey if you don’t like where it will bring you.

@Vincent: so I gather from your last post you believe victims of rape should be forced to carry their rapist’s child to term? Thanks for that. As stated below it’s always good to see the true colours coming out.

So? Maybe you don’t trust women to make the right decision for themselves but I do.

For the time being, as long as that pernicious amendment remains in the constitution, we will never have free access to abortion. I welcome the day when we get rid of that amendment, but in the meantime I will be happy that at least some women will be saved by this legislation.

After all, the ones who can, travel. As the Irish people voted they should be permitted to do. The way the law stands at present just forces women who are too poor, ill or alone to travel to carry pregnancies that they do not want to. When you have all decisions about your own body removed from you perhaps you will understand how isolating that is.

@sam- where did I say that? But you prove my point by, typical of a pro-abortionist, trying to focus on the exception. Thus proving the point I was making. Many thanks.

@shanti- I don’t trust people to make the right decision. Deadbeat dads abandon pregnant women. Some women abort their babies. The law steps in in both instances. Frankly, arguments about control over your own body carry no weight when assesses against a baby’s life.

@ Pat, that hypothesis, however tentatively expressed as a question, does not fit with the views of Endanger Kenny and many FG TDs.

It’s a simpler situation, I think.

The death of Savita Halappanavar revealed the probability that the Eight Amendment was defective and dangerous in practice, creating as it, did a legal stalemate which prevented prudent medical intervention.

Equating the life of a pregnant woman and the preservation of a foetus is legally intractable when the interests of each are in conflict.

I don’t think that it is fair that any clinician should have to wrestle with intractable legal issues in a time of potential or actual medical crisis. Dr Rhona Mahoney’s presentation to the Oireachtas Committee really made an impact with me. As the incumbent Master of Holles Street, I am inclined to be influenced by her truly expert views.

I have not observed or heard of RC bishops delivering babies. They profess to know a lot about a lot but I think that they are competent midwives or obstetricians.

Ya, I mean in reality we should just ignore the lessons from every unnecessary death! That’s what a smart country would do, try learn nothing from our failings!

Saying that women will fake suicidal ideation in order to gain an abortion is highly offensive to women.
It implies that women are not to be trusted, that we are all liars.. Cheers..

This country will never have abortion on demand unless the 8th amendment is repealed – which it should be.

If you don’t like the suicide clause then I’m afraid that’s tough. We had TWO referendums (just to be sure) to try and take it out and we said we wanted it in there. So it’s going in whether the anti choice groups like it or not. That’s democracy, if they couldn’t rally enough votes to exclude the suicide clause then their views do not reflect the majority.

As we heard from the experts during the Seanad hearings, this country will make it really difficult to obtain an abortion for this reason anyway, so really most women who can afford it will still travel (so they don’t need to feel interrogated about it). Its safe to conclude that the number of abortions is highly unlikely to rise unless restrictions are loosened – or we repeal the 8th Amendment.

Pat I guess the fact we had 2 referendums were the people expressly voted to keep suicide as a ground for an abortion slipped your mind?

Termination is a standard procedure as set out in the WHO annex of every health issue going.
As a nurse I find it alarming that a mother may have to justify her need for a termination with suicide ideation, yet for other any other procedure the only justification required is that the patient asked for it.

@james- thing is, any other procedure doesn’t result in the death of a baby. Now that’s a controversial, arguable statement. But don’t try to reduce abortion to a tonsillectomy.

Abortion doesn’t result in the death of a baby. It is the termination of its development into a baby.
At the point where the majority of abortions occur it’s certainly not a baby.. Ask any woman who has had a spontaneous abortion, sorry, miscarriage for those who are averse to the proper medical term..

Vincent, many procedures (actions) can result in the termination of a pregnancy: smoking pr drinking alcohol or taking drugs while pregnant, undergoing an anaesthic while pregnant, taking excess paracetamol…

There are abortifacients all around us Vincent, and many women use them without knowing that they are classed as such..

Star Anise, Juniper (gin), Sage, Dill, nutmeg, goji berries, parsley seed – that’s just off the top of my head.. Anything that contains thujone is an abortifacient..
While you couldn’t guarantee an abortion from their consumption, you also can’t ensure that one will not occur.

Should we ban all of them?