It’s easy say what the electorate want to hear when you’re on the opposition! Donnelly is a man who likes the smell of his own bullshit

Such a well reasoned response. The debate is always so lively and intelligent on this site.

I also think Donnelly is being misleading about what is achievable here. This was turned into sovereign debt the night Fianna Fail guaranteed the banks. I remember the crowing on the radio the next day from Lenihan and Cowen about such a great move it was. It was a disaster for the country.

What we’re hearing from the opposition is exactly (in most cases) what the electorate wants!

@Reg: Fair point, but to shoot yourself in the foot by not at least putting what you want on the table, of course what is achievable won’t measure up, it’s a physical impossibility. Here is a nice taste of what this government is really up to, and really highlights how interested they are in the best interests of the people: http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/bill-restricts-dail-banking-crisis-probe-222273.html

Give over reg, we’re past blaming FF. they guaranteed the banks yeah now two years on FG extended that guarantee and the liquidated Anglo now ask yourself why? Why now after all those billions pumped into it (thanks tax payer) why in the middle of the night when a Supreme Court case was in the process (thanks David hall) was it going to be successful and known that the prom notes were illegal? FG changing the goal posts to suit themselves yet again.The time for blame is long gone this is all FG doing. No one else can claim responsibility for this disaster.

I think the troika are pretty much aware what we want Ferdia. Who in their right mind would want to pay this debt. The problem for Ireland is that we are still in need of significant funding for the next few years. When someone has your balls in a vice grip it is very difficult to do anything that you would like to do.

Yes but them knowing what we want, and Noonan actually putting it on the table in negotiations are very different thinks. If it’s on the table it must be delt with, even if that just means saying “No”. If both parties simple know about it, it can be ignored entirely, as with what happened. Again, I am not saying it would have happened had he put it on the table, odds are it may not have been, but it was his responsibility to put it on the table.

Yes a harder line could have been taken Ferdia, not sure either if it would have got us anywhere. A technical default could have been expensive for us in the short term though and at least this reduces the cost of this guarantee for the next few years. This is is important when public finances are so tight. We need to reduce the deficit as soon as is practicable, as adding more debt is not the answer.

@Ferdia my point is is that it’s easy to have the all the right answers when you are at the opposition side of the house. Implementing those answers would be a lot more difficult. I can’t imagine that if Stephen Donnelly became Taoiseach/Minister for Finance tomorrow that by 6 months time we will be in a much better state than we are now. The readership of this site seem to think that he is some sort of white knight who will come and banish all our troubles in a matter of moments. I don’t think economic miracles can happen in such a fashion; just look at Obama in the USA; although the signs of recovery are there it has been a slow and painful process.

@matthew ryan, one word ‘Iceland’

RP, Don’t put your faith in discount frozen food supermarkets.

Ireland couldn’t do now what Iceland did then, not having done what it has done so far.

Ryano i can safely say FG can match FF for criminality ,this bailout is going to cost the people 60 billion and no bank investigation of any real meaning how can you defend this.

agreed damocles, but do you really think this shower are performing well? even given the extraordinary circumstances? the hypocrisy of this government (labour in particular because fg always act this way) makes my blood boil

Cowen and Lenehin made that decision sitting at a bar, pissed outta their minds….

Reg. Cowen and Lenihan crowed and celebrated the deal because it protected FF donors and friends, ensuring that the party would survive long term and that gombeen pork barrel politics would continue. Their concern was not about the welfare of the country.

In all probability the Finance Minister who will be in charge when we are over the mess they created is probably only still in secondary.

” do you really think this shower are performing well?”

No. I’ve made clear what I think should happen repeatedly.

It’s in this blog: http://damoclesbda.wordpress.com/2013/01/02/yeah-well-politicians-innit/

Iceland, not in the Euro not in the EU, different country all together, we have agreed to rules in EU treaties, it would have been worse if we had broken them to become like Iceland

Conor, the promissory notes were a vehicle used to bend the EU rules on banking finance. You cannot disregard the rules to create something and then hide behind the rules to support it.

Exactly Reg… time will tell how this will pan out..in the short term, its of benefit to us but long term…unless inflation seriously erodes the value of the debt, we’ve just put a longer fuse on the gun to our heads. I’ve said it before..the Anglo debt is, wasn’t or never should be ours. A debt write down..even a partial one would have been worth pursuing.

@Dermot

It’s indefensible. Any eejit can see that. Putting blame on the person with the matches (FF) while the real culprits are the ones who lit the match and started arson (FG)

And you’re right about the non investigation into the banking sector….because FG are simply looking out for themselves and their friends.

I guess their idea if accountability is defunct.

Reg, they were crowing because it got them and the golden circle off the hook and shoved the burden onto us!

Didn’t Noonan do a course with The Bilderbergs shur.

Ha ha ha, classic comment.

Ironic to hear Noonan calling Stephen a liar and misleading the people when Noonan told the people of Ireland on the day that HE facilitated Anglo seizing the Quinn Group that the bondholders took a big hit in the region of 50% in the deal. They took no hit whatsoever and he has consistently refused to clarify why he misled the people. He also said that there would be no job losses and none of the company would be sold for at least 5 years. There are more than 1500 jobs gone to date and the Quinn Group is being auctioned off in pieces. Michael Noonan calling anyone else a liar is a bit rich.
Separately, will he and those who facilitated the IBRC liquidation legislation be jailed for PUTTING ASSETS BEYOND THE REACH OF THE QUINN FAMILY especially when the alleged debt of 2.3 billion has yet to be ruled on in a court of law.

“On Thursday, February 14, at 1.30pm, the Dail will vote for the first, and possibly last time on converting Ireland’s bank debt into sovereign debt. This is the proposed restructuring of the promissory notes. I am urging everyone to get in touch with their local TD to tell them whether they are in favour of converting debts from failed banks into the debts of the people of Ireland, and to urge them to vote for the people they represent rather than according to any party diktat.” ~ http://stephendonnelly.ie/converting-bank-debt-to-sovereign-debt/

Aine,

Done. Just contacted my local TD Joan Burton and requested that she vote against this Bill which places the debts of financial speculators firmly on to the shoulders of the Irish people. It’s a futile gesture most likely but maybe in this late hour Joan will find some of the integrity she has lost.
Joe Higgins and Patrick Nulty will vote against the Bill. I won’t waste my time contacting Leo Varadkar.

The big difference in FF and GF is FF at least told us everything was great while they stuffed their pockets and we live in bliss not knowing the damage they done.
FG on the other hand tell us the stark truth about how far up the creek we are without a paddle while stuffing their pockets
Both ways joe public gets raped and pays for these crooks to live happily ever after

Ferdia, that Irish Examiner piece on the Legislation being drawn up that will restrict Dáil banking crisis probe is just unbelievable..

It’s just so ridiculous and disheartening..!
How the hell is the government allowed to just come up with new laws to suit them whenever they want…? X(

Surely this is a prime example of where direct democracy (The people having the power to call referendum for new laws and public policy) would be of major benefit.
I mean those gangsters in government pretty much have the power to do whatever they please..
Now we have Pat Rabbit trying to clamp down on any anti-government dialog that appears on the Internet.

It is misleading to suggest that Europe would give us a write down. Greece was a special case and a precedent Europe would only repeat if we fell into similar circumstances.

Donnelly should be calling for a unilateral default if that’s the outcome he wants to achieve.

I thought they called us a special case too if i can remember

@David: So we would only get a write down if Ireland was a special case? No problem at all: http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/irish-news/ireland-a-special-case-merkel-28822514.html

Yeah… I thought we were the special case. We are! Every Irish citizen has bailed out EU banks at €8250 each. The rest if EU €191 each.

A special case in a positive sense.
Greece was in an especially negative position.

Exactly les, Dave must of conveniently forgot about that term his cronies where calling Ireland about two weeks ago. Dave, noonan done the wrong thing just admit it, i really can’t see why you blindly read from their gospel when its goin to have huge implications for our future generations

You think being hundreds of billions in debt is a positive thing, not a negative thing? Is opposite land a nice place to live?

Positive?
My child having no future in this country, that’s positive?
It must of been a great life for you getting everything spoon fed to ye by mummy and daddy and now daddy enda.
The massive amount of debt we are accumulating because of your party with their head in the clouds!
Just look what was done to many African countries in the 50′s and 60′s, exactly what’s happening here!
They kept getting unsustainable ‘loans’ that they still are paying back while their countries are rich of natural resources.
Soon we will have a band aid 20 for Ireland with that hypocrite bono :-)

Many said in the 1980s that our children would have no future but yet here we are today.

They were referring to our “leaders” at the time!

David.
I spent 15 year’s working abroad.
Don’t pretend you know anything about the people who have to leave.
If you’ve ever had to walk away from your family in a terminal you’d have a different outlook.
It’s the same mismanagement by back slapping yokels that has us here again.
Some of them are even the same yokels ffs.

Did the country have a debt as high as this? No.

As a percentage of GDP yes we have had this much debt before and we overcame it without default or even restructuring. This time we have restructuring and with a booming IT/pharmaceuticals sector amongst other strengths, Ireland has a very bright future ahead of her.

Yeah but most of our kids are in Australia.

And when them industries go belly up and locate to eastern Europe? Too long has Ireland depended on multinationals we need a lot more ingenious manufacturing industries.
The levels of debt is a serious burden and is only goin to get higher.
Higgins has a black dog

David you’re too young to remember the economic times of the 80s but your party will remember, its when they failed to listen to the people and decided to tax children’s shoes, this time round they’ve decided to tax our children’s future! History will repeat itself come next GE.

For once agree with you David…Greece got a write down but the austerity conditions attached to it are barbaric and will see Greece unable to run its own affairs for years to come. Having said that I think Stephen Donnelly is right and is much more financially educated than our current Minister.

fg made the same mistakes in the 80′s as they are now, they seem to have a ‘punish the electorate for not voting us in for so long mentality’ they paid for their ineptitude then as they will now, fg=irelands default party for when ff mess up, amazing to see a 20 something lecturing about the 80′s, we lived through it child and we dont forget fgs vindictiveness

The mistake Fine Gael made in the 1980s was not tackling the budget deficit sooner. It was only in the closing days of the co-alition were larger cuts and tax rises implemented. Haughey opposed these but when he came to power, continued on the same course. Once the budget deficit was cleared we moved into the Celtic Tiger in the 1990s.

Ah yeah Dave just point the finger at the other lot again, is that all you can do?
Higgins Wanks dog

The facts are the facts simple. No doubt they all have cushy little numbers in Europe awaiting them and members of their families in return for selling us all down the river

We should be voting on this deal, not the people who negotiated it. Ask us, what we think of it?

Our children have become indentured by this deal….how is this good…what idiot can consider this good.
And anyone who suggests “the amount will be less by the time it needs paying, so that’s ok then” are the same kind of blundering gombeens that got the country into this stupid mess in the first place.

By imposing this illegal debt on Irish citizens, this government are committing a crime against its people like never before. Every TD that sanctions this treacherous act should have their photographs displayed in every working class estate in Ireland. Public hanging’s too good for these evil people.

@ Revolting,
I totally agree with you. It sounds like a bunch of yobs trying to “out shout” each other at a football match.

Check out the #G30 for who runs Europe

Agree totally, except with “remove our entrenched political elite peacefully” . . . I say remove them asap by all and any means possible and available . . . . . .

Damp, qualifications aren’t everything, experience is worth something and ability to seek the advice needed
However, Donnelly is an excellent speaker, and in this case made valid argument, noonan made an ass of himself

Shame, years working as a management consultant with McKinsey would bring that experience. The ability to read is also useful.

Every day I get more and more angry. What will it take before the majority of people say enough’s enough.

What’s happening with David Hall’s case against it?

You are no doing your argument no service by comparing Donelly and Doherty to Flanagan.

I’m no great fan of ‘Ming’, but the fact remain he asked a very legitimate question of Shatter about Garda Corruption and you’d want to listen to the diatribe out of Shatter’s mouth – disgraceful stuff.
Look it up and come back to me if it wasn’t the clearest example of playing the man and not the ball…

Don’t know for sure LW. This changes the Quinn case too! None will be held accountable its the FG way. Cover it all up.

@everlast In fairness, the absolute garbáiste coming out of that fella is incredible. Never thought much of him in the first place as a politician (don’t know him personally, wouldn’t slander him in that sense) but the episode in the Dáil about his kids getting bullied for what he wore was a surreal moment in Irish politics..

In fairness accusing someone of misleading the public is not playing the man instead of the ball.

Why can’t every politician be like Stephen Donnelly!

ff labour and fg are all the same side of a rotten coin it’s time to end party politics!

It’s dead in the water. No promissory notes, no case. At least I think that’s right. Any one know?

That comment was in answer to Leonard Washington.

Yet again the Stoogeen government of Ireland assist their criminal puppet masters in their torture campaign against the Irish people.
You can always rely on the Irish government for help when it comes to persecuting the Irish people.

“The Good Old Irish Government”,
Always willing to Assist, Harbor and Protect Murderers, Pedophiles, Rapists, Perverts, Slave Drivers, Human Traffickers, Criminal Bankers, Horse meat Fraudsters and just plain old People that Inject you with Infected Blood and Poisons.

Sadly our sneaky politicians change legislation in the dead of night so we can’t vote or even question it’s illegality ……that’s what the prom night was all about.

* Yayyyyyy FG, well done, delighted you converted a promise into sovereign debt that will have to be paid for decades to come. Wooohooo better keep my kids here so they can pay*

****sarcasm****

It’s time to run this shower out of town, before its too late.

Being capable of lying doesn’t mean he is.

He’s an elected official who didn’t start as a teacher, lawyer or councillor…..he’s already different.

Too late!