TheJournal.ie uses cookies. By continuing to browse this site you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Click here to find out more »
Dublin: 12 °C Sunday 19 May, 2013

Taoiseach warns: Foreign investment will be hit if we vote No

Enda Kenny says investment from the likes of Eli Lilly, eBay and Google will lose confidence if Ireland rejects the Fiscal Compact.

THE TAOISEACH has warned that Ireland faces losing the confidence of major international investors if it votes No to the Fiscal Compact.

Enda Kenny told the Dáil this afternoon that investment from the likes of eBay, Google and Eli Lilly would be put at risk if Irish voters rejected the Fiscal Compact at the referendum on 37 days’ time.

“If you tell me that… all of these companies that are making serious investments [will continue to do so] … you do live on a different planet,” Kenny told the technical group’s Richard Boyd Barrett during Leaders’ Questions.

Kenny rejected suggestions from Boyd Barrett that ratification of the treaty would require major budgetary adjustments “for at least two decades”, given its requirements that member states reduce their general government debt.

The fiscal compact would require Ireland to halve its debt – from an expected 120 per cent of GDP later this decade to an eventual level of 60 per cent, at a rate of 5 per cent each year.

Boyd Barrett suggested that meeting these targets would require annual cuts of €4.5 billion each year for around 20 years in order to meet this target.

“Your figures project a view that the government is only about austerity and cutting back,” Kenny responded, saying the government also intended to meet those targets by creating jobs and therefore increasing the country’s GDP.

“What government is about is stimulating the indigenous economy,” the Taoiseach asserted. “I completely reject your view only of austerity beyond 2017.”

Growth agenda

Kenny also told Sinn Féin’s Gerry Adams that the forthcoming meetings of EU leaders would be devoted to unemployment and promoting small and medium enterprises, with leaders hoping to inflate the European economy as a result.

Adams accused Kenny of never having given a full explanation for why his government was ‘defending austerity’, saying: “You don’t do it, you dodge it all the time.”

Earlier, the Taoiseach was forced to defend accusations from Fianna Fáil’s Micheál Martin that the government was specifically targeting autistic children in its proposed cuts to domiciliary care allowances.

“Why is it, Taoiseach, that the cuts you have initiated are hitting the most vulnerable in our society?” Martin asked, calling for a “root and branch change” to the manner in which domiciliary care allowance applications were reviewed.

“It would be wonderful to be able to assume we had unlimited funds to deal exclusively with the range of problems that effect children,” Kenny said in response.

Martin said he was particularly referring to “desk-top reviews” where a child’s specific circumstances were not taken on board whenever their applications were considered.

Read: As three unions say no, ICTU to discuss common policy on Fiscal Compact

More: Coveney admits many people don’t know what referendum is about

Read next:

Comments (164 Comments)

  • If as the Taoiseach says, Ireland is now the place in which to do business, then why would a No vote to a treaty in which the rules already are in place, effect Foreign Investment? Scaremongering if you ask me!

    Reply
  • Scaremongering. Can TheJournal contact these Corporations (eBay, Google, etc) and ask them for their own opinion? That would be great

    Reply
    • Agree Chris
      Its nothing but Scaremongering.
      I think our 12.5% cop tax,Well educated people,English Language and a peaceful country are the main reason’s why the likes of Ebay Google Facebook PayPal are coming to this country sure only a few days ago Apple announced 500 jobs for cork so Apple are hardly concerned. Next they be talking about Argentina defaulting and that people were eating each other, nothing but scare tactics.

      Reply
    • Conor 24/04/12 #

      The reason they keep coming here are that we are a convenient and competitive entry point to the European Union, enjoying tariff free trading in the largest economic community in the world. Vote no at your peril….

      Reply
    • Conor 24/04/12 #

      Not too mention what tariffs would do to indigenous Irish industry….

      Reply
    • @conor
      Noun: Peril
      Serious and immediate danger.
      The dangers or difficulties that arise from a particular situation or activity.

      Explain how we would be in peril after we choose not to vote for?

      Reply
    • Conor 24/04/12 #

      Voting no means that we are voting no to being part of the biggest economic community in the world. We enjoy tariff free trading with E.U member states including those states not in the Eurozone. FDI flows in because we are a well educated and English speaking country within the E.U. Irish indigenous producers enjoy this tariff free trading as it makes Irish exports far cheaper than if we were not in the E.U. If we left the E.U and had to pay tariffs or customs charges on exports, Irish exports would increase in price meaning that people will look elsewhere, this includes FDI and Multinationals. Irish indigenous industry would have uncompetitive exports and their market will be gone. 40% of the countries included in this article http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/gallery-irelands-20-most-improved-trading-partners-in-2011-427647-Apr2012/#slide-slideshow20 are within the E.U. This does not include countries such as Switzerland and Norway in which the EU has bilateral trading agreements with. This is why voting no is perilous, voting no means a no to Europe, voting no means lost FDI, voting no means a loss to Irish indigenous industry, and most importantly voting no means no to present jobs, and also jobs that would’ve been created in the future.

      Reply
    • Conor – just to note: only 15% of those countries are part of the Euro…

      Reply
    • Conor 24/04/12 #

      Yep, I know that Gavin (not to sound like a child when he’s corrected). But whether or not they are in the euro or not, Ireland enjoys customs free trade with all of these states.

      Reply
    • Conor
      This is not a vote on a exit from the EU its a vote on strict rule’s the Franco-German designed to keep within a 3% deficit in a few years time if you don’t stay within that deficit you will be fined and the EU has the power to change taxes and cut funding in future budgets and force yet more debt (AKA bailout) down our throat so a no vote does not mean “Voting no means that we are voting no to being part of the biggest economic community in the world” The french,Dutch and the UK voted against this treaty their still in the EU and we will be too,If the whole EU had the chance it would be scraped.Sure the new elected french pres Francois Hollande will rip up the treaty and the Dutch government has collapsed so its dead in the water.

      Reply
    • Conor 24/04/12 #

      The UK parliament have decided to opt, that is fair enough they kept the Sterling and control of their monetary policy. The French, Dutch and British people have NOT voted against the treaty, that is a complete fabrication. Being legally obliged to run a smaller deficit will not increase DEBT and will in fact decrease the likelihood of another BAILOUT. Voting NO means, voting against the policies of Europe. If Ireland continuously makes a huge deficit within the E.U, which stands to endanger the E.U as a whole, we will be asked to leave. We will lose access to low cost funding (the bailout interest rates are actually CHEAPER than what Ireland was paying in the markets). Running a deficit without any funding means DEFAULT. DEFAULT means massive cuts to public services, DEFAULT means no FDI as Ireland is not seen as a safe place to invest in. DEFAULT means more emigration as skilled people leave to earn a decent wage. Think you’ve seen austerity, well you ain’t seen nothing yet!

      Reply
    • eugene,
      i was going to point that out to conor,
      but i didn’t have the heart to pull him up on that.
      Ya cruel man ya! :-)

      Reply
    • Dave 24/04/12 #

      Conor, dont dare presume to tell me that I’m voting for being part of the EU. That’s total crap. We are voting on a fiscal treaty, nothing more, and this pushing to extremes to force a Yes vote only convinces me further of the lack of democracy and therefore convinces me to vote No.

      Reply
    • Conor 24/04/12 #

      Just because I said the facts that you didn’t want to hear doesn’t make the vote any less democratic. What exactly have I got wrong Joseph mcGee?

      Reply
    • Dave 24/04/12 #

      Saying this is a referendum on continued EU membership is NOT a fact – it is a total and utter LIE.

      Reply
    • ” which stands to endanger the E.U as a whole, we will be asked to leave” do you honestly think we be asked to leave how will that look on the EU if a democratic vote was used to reject this treaty mean’s we should be punished??Seems your caps get stuck on the default fault word that’s pretty WEIRD:).Where going to DEFAULT because Ireland a country the size of Manchester with a work force of 1.8 to 1.9 million trying to pay of €123Billion of Debt(Mostly private) can not happen http://www.financedublin.com/debtclock.php.
      Actually your right the french and dutch didn’t get the right to vote for this I got mixed up with Lisbon treaty the UK and Czech rejected it which I think their right.
      Nearly every country’s economy in the EU will shrink from austerity meaning less growth for Ireland and more debt meaning more deficit so we can not sign this treaty risking our taxes and budget control.
      Even if we do need more loans sure the EU charges more interest then the IMF so I will vote NO to a treaty that was designed by only 2/27 countries France and German.

      Reply
    • @Joseph
      Ah I’m no where near as cruel as government brainwashing

      Reply
    • Ah now Eugene,
      You’re cruel in a
      cruel to be kind sorta way,
      Ya big softie!

      Reply
    • @Joseph
      You know me too well lol :)

      Reply
    • Conor 24/04/12 #

      Actually about a third of Ireland’s sovereign debt was created by the financial crisis so no you’re wrong it is not mostly “private” debt. The remaining 2/3s were caused by continuous overspending. Get your facts right before you call me up on what I say. We need to stop spending this treaty simply confirms what we already have to do. Do you honestly think defaulting on debts is a good idea? Give me a logically argument as to why it is? Without just saying life isn’t fair. It’s getting repetitive.

      Reply
    • MMmmmmm………..
      anyone see the match last week? :-)

      Reply
    • Conor
      Here you go please watch this from a top ECONOMIST
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAR0VRLRGHE

      Reply
    • Conor 24/04/12 #

      Hmm Eugene, I don’t really think watching an advertisement for David mcwilliams book counts as offering a solution to anything.

      Reply
    • Conor
      You know what Conor your 100% right I’m nothing but a uneducated, Sinn fein david mc williams supporter.
      Believe what the government feeds you I know for one I will vote NO for many reasons.If you rather believe a government that broke nearly all election promises over a economist on this matter then go ahead.

      Reply
    • Conor 24/04/12 #

      I think David McWilliams has an agenda in telling the people what they want to hear so that he can sell more of his books. I’ve listened to and read what other people have said and came to my own conclusion, which I have every right to instead of just believing what David McWilliams says because he tells me what I want to hear, judge me if you want. The government did make election promises to create jobs etc. It isn’t their fault though regarding the world economy, it isn’t there fault that the previous government over spent for years then guaranteed the banks. You can give out about them all you like but do you really think there is an alternative?

      Reply
    • Some rubbish being posted here. If we vote no we will be leaving the Euro zone no less :-) Please Conor try to stay in touch with reality. BTW if we did get tossed out of Europe (no mechanism to do that currently but never mind) we would revert to our own currency which would mean we would be an even cheaper country for FDI to work with. A vote no is voting to leave the Euro zone :-) :-)

      Reply
    • Conor 24/04/12 #

      Kerry If we left the EU and the Eurozone, there would be no reason for FDI. We’d have lost our customs free entry into the eurozone.

      Reply
    • @ Conor. We are not voting on leaving the Euro zone we are voting on a fiscal compact and that is all. So your suggestion is baseless.

      Reply
  • Dave 24/04/12 #

    I’d like if Google and eBay could answer this for themselves. I’m quite sure they could not give a flying f**k whether we ratify this or not. It was not even on the horizon a year ago when they were deciding to invest.

    Shut up Kenny! The fear doesnt work anymore!

    Reply
    • Unfortunately, the fear will work for many, which is why successive governments lie to the people that elected them, to manipulate the people for whom they have absolutely no respect.

      Reply
    • Actually working in one of these multinationals, this is a real concern for me. So please stop suggesting it some form of scare tactic. Our access to funds, our stability and our position in Europe are all key to investment in Ireland. Please stop the propaganda suggesting otherwise.

      Reply
    • @declan
      Politicians lackie more like!

      Reply
    • Folks, just a note – if you think a user has insulted you, the best way to address it is to use the ‘Report this Comment’ link beside the offending one. That way we get an instant alert and we address it as soon as possible. Taking issue AND reporting it AND replying will, from experience, waste everyone’s time: the entire portion of the conversation will be deleted if there’s an insult involved, including any responses which reference the original insult.

      If you reply to an insult you’re (1) probably more likely to prompt further insults, (2) writing a comment that WILL ultimately be deleted, (3) distracting other readers by forcing them to wade through tete-a-tete arguments which don’t discuss the matter at hand, and (4) forcing me and the other writers to spend time moderating and less time producing more content.

      Reply
    • Conor 24/04/12 #

      Ye well a forum for discussion has turned into a forum for faceless people behind twitter accounts to gang up on people who have ideas that they don’t like. Goodbye the Journal (I’ll still read the articles though)

      Reply
    • Gavan, as I posted in another forum, the Journal is fast becoming a forum for SF/ULA – any opinions which don’t conform to the far left are being belittled while characters like Ryan resort to personal insults. This is not exactly facilitating balanced debate.

      Reply
  • Vote for what is right for our countries future. Don’t listen to a single politician. They don’t care about us. They are in it for the money. They will not be affected by the negative results of either a Yes or a No. Look at the treaty fair and square and avoid a protest anti-government vote. Vote for what you think is right for yourself and your compatriots.

    Reply
  • Eh , eh ,eh……If you vote NO the sky is going to fall in and we are all doomed doomed I tells you !!
    P.S. Vote yes for jobs …… sorry we done that already .

    Reply
    • @on the dole,
      A vote “no” probably means an end to European loans next year.
      As we currently run a large deficit, it’s hard to see how this would result in anything other than a MASSIVE cut to public expenditure. Given your handle, I can only assume that is an issue close to your heart.

      Reply
    • Probably?!?! Probably, probably, probably?!?

      Reply
    • Dave 24/04/12 #

      That’s what the IMF is for Jim. Besides, I think id prefer the big bang over the death by a thousand cuts. At least we’d all know where we stood.

      Reply
    • @Jim Europe won’t let us collapse into the bottomless hole Denny is warning us about. They just won’t cannabilise their own or the whole project is risked. Anyway,pitiful Ireland will succumb to Kennys scaremongering and the fear of having nothing,if we say no. We’re good Europeans see. Sad,actionless,disgruntled,beaten Europeans.
      We’ll Say yes.

      Reply
  • Ya Enda we get it, vote yes for jobs, vote yes to be at the heart of Europe, Vote yes so we don’t give you a headache in explaining to your French and German masters, how about we vote NO , then you might just listen to the Irish people, as you said, ” paddy likes to know” well ” paddy likes to be listened too”.

    Reply
  • The scare tactics begin

    Reply
  • One thing for sure Kenny as he is earning €200k plus expenses a year and god only knows what he is entitled to for his pension does not have to worry about austerity. He is also wrong he is in charge of an austerity government and has done very little jobs wise unless he is including the governments highly paid special advisers in his figures.

    I think Boyd-Barrett is being optimistic in his claim of 20 years austerity I think if we sign up for this fiscal compact we will be looking at 30 years more austerity.

    Was not Kenny beating the drum that it was our corporation tax that brought outside investment as well as our young educated work force a while back? Though seeing what FG/LAB is currently doing to our education facilities the well educated work force will soon be a thing of the past.

    Reply
  • Kenny and his lies!! The only thing that will scare multinationals out of here is a higher corporation tax base!
    Not if we vote NO! Sure they don’t need us to ratify ur anyway 12 or more already have so what’s Kenny really saying !?!?

    Reply
  • franco 24/04/12 #

    thats 4 NO votes from my house enda…

    Reply
  • stick your scare tactics taoiseach..where the sun don’t shine

    Reply
  • Scarr 24/04/12 #

    I cannot claim to be an economic or political knowledge powerhouse, so can someone explain how a No vote would annoy eBay? As long as our tax arrangements remain in their favour I don’t think they or any other mnc give a hoot which way we vote.

    Reply
  • jimbo 24/04/12 #

    Shut up kenny with your scaremongering.
    The answer is no.

    Reply
  • the treaty is neither a treaty on being a member of Europe , or being a member of the Euro. Its a treaty on having a security backup plan should things go wrong and in the process of doing so hands control of our finances to someone else. Both of these have already happened and we are being screwed by the EU, Even the IMF are saying Europe should ease off on the austerity.
    So really this is a referendum on ongoing infinite austerity,
    yes or no ?

    Reply
  • Voting no. I will not be fear-mongered into a yes vote. The more fear-mongering he does, the less likely I am to vote yes.

    Reply
  • I am sick and tired of this man with his fearmongering and bully boy tactics. IMHO Enda Kenny is a traitor who is selling our nation up the river. We need to look at Iceland and how well they are doing now. Vote No and Sack The Government.

    Reply
  • And so the lies begin .’ Yes for jobs’, right inda??

    Reply
  • I hate this man!!! Makes my blood boil everytime he opens his mouth! Vote no!!! Save ireland and the rest of Europe from german rule!!!

    Reply
  • Well if it’s a repeat of the last treaty, most of us will vote NO. They’ll hold another vote & the muppets will go out & vote YES again. I’m no longer interested in this crap as I’ll be living/working abroad by the end of the summer with no plan to ever return. This place is gone to the dogs & the worst has yet to come. Makes me sad.

    Reply
  • Voting No could make IRL more attractive to FDI as long as mkt access is still guaranteed to euro zone nations

    Reply
  • Raf ⚡ 24/04/12 #

    Voting YES will give even more fiscal power in Ireland to large countries with much higher corporation tax.
    Thus, foreign investors will see YES as a threat, not the other way round.

    Reply
  • ohhhhhh vote no and the boogie man will get ya…….Enda your the best

    Reply
  • Shock horror news, Enda admits he lives on a different planet to the rest of us:

    ““If you tell me that… all of these companies that are making serious investments [will continue to do so] … you do live on a different planet,”

    .. because yes they will. Enda and co have no understanding of how things work in the real world. They’ve promised us time and time again that their actions would restore the “confidence of the markets”. But they haven’t. These people work with real economic facts, and no amount of blather from Enda will ever change that.

    Reply
  • Kenny..Shatter & co.. Have become so arrogant.. They have no regard for the people of this country…It’s Europes way and nothing else matters to them…It’s beyond sickening..it’s becoming a dictatorship …

    Reply
  • Enda the muppet can say what he likes cos i don’t believe a word out of his mouth

    Reply
  • Was listening to Gwyn Prins of the London School of Economics,on George Hook’s show this evening and basically what he is saying is that Yes or No vote will not change our situation in the slightest.His advice is to vote No and get out of the Euro(in it’s present form) as soon as possible.I would advise people to have a listen to the show,very interesting…

    Reply
    • Heard it on the way home, very well thought and explained, plus sound reasons for a no vote, The Govt and their followers are only able to use scare tactics to win a Yes, Where if anything foreign investments and such would be happier that we avoided such a lock in situation that if given resent history will have us exceed our deficit as we cant make ends meat atm not to mind them wanting to strip a further 4.3 billion every year from the economy for the next 20 years to pay Germany’s bonds they bought and in doing so protect their own banking sector.

      Vote no and the possibility of stopping paying back Germany’s debt is open and possible, for then we at least may have a chance at turning our economy around but its just not possible when we are being bullied and bleed intravenously while on the floor already bleeding out.

      What we must all understand is that Germany /EU wont let us crash or fail as we are all tied to each other and this would harm them as badly as us if such a scenario took place wither we vote yes, no or maybe later, so the Yes side are full of shit and outright lies on this respect. A Yes, you can say guaranties us needing a further bailout the way FG/EU are leading us and then we will only have more debt and interest to pay back, raising our deficit and facing fines which we must again borrow to pay all back to the ESM, deeper and deeper we are being led in debt to them.
      F%ck me, but this sounds like utter madness. I welcome the unknown rather than the fictitious known that Enda is waffling on about.

      Reply
  • didn’t take Edna to long to start the scare moungering bs. good man, perfect way to alienate the electorate, o hang on, shatter & Hogan have already succeeded!

    Reply
  • Enda, would you be as sure about this, as you were that voting Yes to Lisbon was going to create jobs?? Because since we voted “Yes” to that, after getting it wrong the first time, this country has lost over 500,000 jobs.

    Reply
  • remember the lisbon treaty posters vote yes for jobs ….i lost mine:(

    Reply
    • Yes I remember them. I also remember shaking my head and wondering – “Who in the world would believe this guff”

      Apparently lots of people did. And those people are now angry. The only people they should be angry at are themselves – insteading of educating themselves on what Lisbon was ACTUALLY about the preferred to read a slogan and believe it. Same thing happens every election too.

      People are promised that hositals wont close. They vote for a politician. And what happens? The hospital closes. And people are angry. Heres an idea – find out whether it is feasible to keep the hospital open in the first place due to finances etc – and THEN when your candidate comes to the door and says “Of COURSE we’ll keep the hospital open!” YOU then ask “BUT HOW?”

      Reply
  • @Conor what has people’s educational breakdown got to do with it??? Irish citizens are permitted to vote at 18 years of age so… “what’s education, education got to do with it??” wake up and smell the bull-crap and don’t be so bloody condescending….. You’re entitled to your opinion as is everyone else, no need to question other people’s education (level of intelligence) just because they disagree with you..

    Reply
    • Very well said Lisa Leonard ……

      Reply
    • Conor 24/04/12 #

      I meant in that the consequences of voting yes or no for the treaty are further reaching than simply a yes or a no. I think people should educate themselves about the good and bad possible consequences. People are refusing to do this and arguing blindly no without thinking of the possible consequences of what that might be.

      Reply
    • Well c’mon educated boy, enlighten us poorly educated unwashed masses about the consequences. Oh, and give us some FACTS if you can……….I’ll be here on the edge of my seat………..

      Reply
  • Regrettably, its a case of different day, same shit from Kenny! Hasnt he been scaremongering already? Didnt he say that the train leaves the platform on January 1 and he wants to be on it? What a fantastic idea, Enda! Let me help you pack, to ensure you dont leave anything behind. I’ll even fork out a one way ticket for you from my already austerity-battered income – just to ensure you never come back!!

    Reply
  • Just piss off Enda

    Reply
  • I’m guess the same folks who paid for the Household Charge aka “Anglo bank tax” will be lining up to Vote Yes. Just a few scary words from Enda about trains leaving to Europe without us will push the same lemmings over the cliff.

    Reply
  • If it was completely up to this geebag special needs children would have no care at all.
    Farewell to my little brothers Sna next year, the fat cats can treat themselves to a bonus at the expense of his education.

    Reply
  • Bullshit Enda. Why? I have read the whole treaty all 24 pages, nothing in it about Google or investment being lost in Ireland if we vote no.

    Reply
  • so its blackmail now. thay are hitting us with service charges left right and center .and now he wants us to listen to him and do as he says so he can sell us out.investment lol.

    Reply
  • I don’t believe Ireland can cope with the requirements of this treaty. When the fallout from voting yes makes itself apparent, we will look back fondly on today’s austerity! We cannot be squeezed any more we will have nothing left. Leave us with some dignity and vote no! Let’s retain some semblance of identity, or the idea that we are masters of our own country. That corporate tax will be dust when we are forced to cut everything and raise taxes to pay billions into the ESM whilst still paying out billions to anonymous unsecured unguaranteed bond holders from collapsed banks and billions back to the EU/IMF bailout… When are we going to stop??!!! You couldn’t make this stuff up!! We will definitely be screwed if we vote yes… We might be screwed if we vote no… But maybe not! We want growth, not cuts. Renegotiate the treaty! Vote no!

    Reply
  • Absolute poppycock!!! Scaremongering AGAIN… FG & Lab are NO different than FF. We should ALL be well aware by now that if the government want us to vote one way, we should vote the opposite. A resounding NO vote from me, my whole family and many friends I’ve discussed it with. Also I’d like to add that I cannot wait for the next election.. Get these idiot half wits OUT!! It can’t come quick enough. They’re all about the high earners. If a Yes Vote comes in, watch our corp tax rate go up to at least 15% and watch as the unemployment figures go up as EBay, google etc go marching on.. Which in turn means less tax take from corporations… NO NO NO NO NO…

    Reply
    • Well Lisa if you’re not going to vote for FG & Lab, and please God you wont vote for the people who created this mess – FF – exactly who ARE you going to vote for? Sinn Fein? Because of their sound economic background?

      Why would our corporate tax rate go up to 15% if we vote Yes? Where is THAT particular section of the Treaty,

      Reply
  • No No No & No Mr Enda

    Reply
  • Can anyone tell me how a NO vote helps investment?

    Reply
    • Conor 24/04/12 #

      They took our jobs!!!

      Reply
    • Can you tell us how a YES vote helps investment?

      Reply
    • Dave 24/04/12 #

      Can you tell us how a Yes vote will? Without resorting to spin and soundbites?

      Reply
    • Can anyone tell me how does a yes vote helps investment, considering we are with the elite of europe, sure we are on team europes side… You hardly think we will be kicked out of Europe if NO vote goes through? Essentially a bribe eh? Havent decided which way il vote but scare tactics really piss me off. Bring on austerity Dave, cause thats a certain

      Reply
    • Conor 24/04/12 #

      Voting yes keeps us within the biggest tariff free economic community in the world. Voting yes means that FDI will still flow into Ireland because we are an English speaking tariff free entry point into the EU member states. Voting no would mean that we would lose this tariff/customs free status on our exports. FDI would dry up as Ireland is not as cheap to export from as it was, Irish indigenous industry would suffer because suddenly our exports have increased in price by 20%. Higher prices mean lower demand, people would shop elsewhere. Irish indigenous industry will suffer, multinationals here will suffer, lower revenues means lower jobs.

      *Studying Finance, not pro or against the government, but would encourage people to vote yes as it is the right thing to do, and not to vote no as a protest against the government.

      Reply
    • conor,
      i think you might be best finishing off ur course in finance
      before making a conclusive financial assessment.

      Either that or study the treaty.

      Reply
    • Dave 24/04/12 #

      I said without spin, bullshit or lies. THIS IS NOT A VOTE ON CONTINUED EU MEMBERSHIP no matter how many times you try to say it is.

      Reply
    • @ Conor. Are you contending that a ‘no’ vote will have us thrown out of the ” biggest tariff free economic community in the world”? Because I haven’t heard that one from even the biggest blueshirt bullshitter and its definitely not in the treaty.

      Reply
    • Conor 24/04/12 #

      Dave, refrain the profanity, it’s only polite. When looking at making an informed decision, one must look at the possible consequences of making that decision. I stated the possible consequences. If you don’t like to hear the facts and possible consequences then go stick your head in the sand.

      Reply
    • Conor 24/04/12 #

      No @true left, I stated what would happen if we voted no and continued to rack up a huge deficit. @Joseph we actually could realise the terms of the treaty. We should be reducing our deficit. If we continue to borrow at the rate that we do then the country will be ruined for a longer period of time until our credit line is curtailed

      Reply
    • Conor,
      It will be IMPOSSIBLE to meet the conditions
      IMPOSSIBLE,
      unless you believe in miracles.

      Reply
    • Raf ⚡ 24/04/12 #

      Voting YES endangers the only reason Ireland has foreign investment: low corporation tax. France and Germany have a long history of bullying Ireland to “harmonise taxation”. Even those muppets in government know it’s back to the 80′s if this tax rate is touched.

      Germany, France, and other major countries are not friends, they are at best friendly competition. They have no interest whatsoever in seeing Ireland succeed.

      More than that, they—as large exporters—benefit from weak Euro caused by peripherial countries’ crises. Germany’s exports are very good now thanks to the crisis.

      DRAMATIZATION:
      +++
      A man in a “New Rich” Asian country: “Hey people, cheap AUDIs!!!”
      2nd man in the “New Rich” country: “Loot!”
      Everyone in the “New Rich” country who actually has money: [ buys AUDI ]
      +++
      END DRAMATIZATION

      @Conor
      It’s not a vote against EU membership, it is a vote against changing the shape of the EU. Czech Republic and the UK already said NO and they’re not going to have export duties imposed.

      Reply
    • Dave 24/04/12 #

      Refrain from telling LIES Conor. It’s only polite.

      Reply
    • Conor 24/04/12 #

      What is stated is basic economics, stick your head under the sand if you want to and call me a liar. Look at the bigger picture seriously. Read up on what could happen from non biased sources, look at the financial times, the economist all of which are free to view on line, even get a basic economics book from your local library.

      Reply
    • More crap. I get the FT e-mail every weekday morning and it does be chocked with articles explaining how austerity is not working. The major papers are also stuffed with economists decrying current european policy.

      Is this trinners finest in action??

      Reply
    • Conor 24/04/12 #

      Wow you are well read, reading your emails and the like! Well done to you! I agree that austerity isn’t pleasant (living within our means, HOW 80s). Default isn’t the solution either looking at things from a historical perspective. I’m saying that austerity is the best solution to a bad problem. If you have any better ideas, as I’ve said before i’d be glad to hear them?

      Reply
    • Conor 24/04/12 #

      Tell me your ideas instead of constantly calling everything I say Crap. It really is quite rude.

      Reply
    • Oooh, a trinners student advocating more austerity for the uneducated masses. Yes, we should all listen to you advocating a ‘yes’ vote, I’m sure you’ll be right there suffering alongside us and have our best interests at heart.

      Reply
    • censored 24/04/12 #

      @David: here’s how – by not imposing stupid artificial restrictions that even Holland is not capable of managing. How about that?

      Reply
    • Thanks to Raf for at least addressing my question as opposed to asking another question!!

      Our Corporate Tax rate is off the agenda and Enda has made that abundantly clear. Sarkosy hasn’t mentioned it since Enda came into office and sure he’s on the way out anyway!

      Now, anyone care to answer as to how voting NO helps investment?

      If it doesn’t that’s fine, just admit it and we can turn to the other arguments. I’d be willing to settle on the vote being investment neutral because I’ll admit that a YES vote does not increase investment, but I’d argue strongly that a NO vote would see less investment into Ireland.

      Reply
    • Raf ⚡ 25/04/12 #
      Reply
  • Conor 24/04/12 #

    I’d actually love to see the educational breakdowns of the people who comment on this website, because most of them seem to have no grasp of basic economics or even a grasp of what the treaty is about. Or are people intending to vote No as an act of protest against the government? Do people understand that the government has to cut spending, any government will have to. The Sinners can say whatever they want, and play to the populist propaganda that appeases the masses. The Irish and World economies have fallen, we have to make adjustments in spending to counterract this. It’s not Fine Gael and Labours fault that they have to make the cuts. Can someone please explain an alternative that does not involve Default that is based in solid economic fact?

    Reply
    • Conor, please, c’mon son.

      The aims of the treaty CANNOT be met by Ireland.
      Except on one possible scenario,
      that is,
      a biblical scale economic recovery.

      Do yourself a favour and look at the treaty.

      Reply
    • Conor, you contend that people here don’t know what this treaty is about, but keep implying that a no vote will threaten our continued participation as part of the eurozone. Now, seeing as though neither our membership of the euro or eurozone, or EU for that matter has ANYTHING to do with this treaty, I have to ask…DO YOU HAVE A GRASP OF WHAT THIS TREATY IS ABOUT?

      Reply
    • Dave 24/04/12 #

      You are telling lies Conor. You infered that a NO vote means we lose access to “the biggest tarrif free trading bloc”. Have you read the treaty Conor? I have, and nowhere in that document does it state we’ll be kicked out of either the EU or the Euro for our “Non compliance”.

      Reply
    • Conor 24/04/12 #

      Still noone has given me any FACTS

      Reply
    • Facts like the falsehood you keep repeating about a no vote threatening our participation in europe?? LOL!!

      Reply
    • Conor 24/04/12 #

      It’s a possibility yes. What do you think the consequences will be? Based on facts not hearsay.

      Reply
    • Oh, so now we’re dealing in possibilities? I thought you were all about the facts? And the fact is that there is nothing in this treaty or no mention from any of the commentators/financial experts out there of a no vote threatening our participation in Europe. Now explain yourself or admit you’re just guilty of lazy scaremongering.

      Reply
    • Conor 24/04/12 #

      I’d recommend you read up on Ireland’s tariff wars of the 1930s. Laws of supply and demand, macroeconomics, what the bailout was, argentina’s default and measure its economic performance against brazil, what an interest rate is, what a deficit is, what FDI is, what a tariff is, what a default is etc….. You can find all this information quite readily!

      Reply
    • Oh boy, wikipedia has a lot to answer for.

      Now, explain how those examples back up your inferral that a no vote in the treaty would remove us from “the biggest tariff free economic community in the world”

      Reply
    • @ Conor
      Reading the business section of the irish times does not count as studying finance. If you really had any clue about the state of our finances you would not be here typing such rubbish. I will guess that you are a little trainee FG or FF member. Go away from the MSM for an education before coming here making a fool of yourself. :-)

      Reply
    • Conor 24/04/12 #

      I think studying Finance in Trinity does count as studying Finance though, and you are wrong in thinking that I’m a member of FF or FG.

      Reply
    • Amazing how yu’re studying finance at trinity but can’t explain yourself, isn’t it?

      Reply
    • Conor 24/04/12 #

      I’ve explained myself and my ideas numerous times. How about you give me your opinion on what could happen, please base it on facts not hearsay and I can get to critique you and call you crap, it’s only fair. If austerity doesn’t work and a default doesn’t work. Can you please tell me what does work?

      Reply
    • No you haven’t. You’ve given an opinion. A claim that starts at point a with ireland voting no and ends at point z with a soverign default, cats and dogs living together etc. but nothing in between. Thats why nobodys taking you seriously. A scholar would be able to explain their reasoning instead of trawling webpages that agree with them and copying stuff.

      What you’re doing is called scaremongering and you’re not even very good at that.

      Reply
    • This quite straightforward – Conor has not explained himself simplistically enough for you to understand and you are either incapable or unwilling to see his point. He has not said, anywhere, that according to the terms of the treaty we will be kicked out of Europe. The treaty does not say this. Conor did no claim that it DOES say this.

      What Conor is suggesting is that a NO vote will set off a series of events both political & economical which will ultimately result in Ireland having to withdraw from the Euro. He is not suggesting that this Treaty, in and of itself, specifically deals with the issue of leaving Europe. He is merely saying that, ultimately, that will be a consequence of a NO vote.

      Where I believe he is mistaken is his certainty that this will happen. Hes basing almost his entire argument for a YES vote of the belief that Ireland will end up out of the Euro as a result of a NO vote. Given how precarious the economic and political situation is throughout Europe I cant see it coming to that because it may well cause a collapse of the Euro entirely.

      What I think might happen is that – if we give Europe the two fingers on this issue – they may well give us the two fingers right back in terms of the amount of lending we receive etc. We cannot forget how utterly totally dependant we are on the money flowing in from Europe and the IMF etc. If thats stops – or gets reduced – then we’ll see real austerity. Bye Bye increments, education, health, Gardai – everything. Social Welfare & Croke Park will get absolutely eviscerated. Income Tax will increase. EVERYTHING off the table.

      Reply
  • Conor 24/04/12 #

    Well I’m not psychic I’m making an educated guess based on facts and previous examples and the current macro environment!

    Reply
    • Correction, you’re neither psychic OR convincing. Whats the previous examples you refer to?

      Reply
    • Conor 24/04/12 #

      I never said I was psychic, and I like to think of myself as convincing. A list of examples of countries that have defaulted and gone alone in the past 30 years, which will most likely happen if we don’t close the deficit.
      Algeria (1991)
      Angola ( 1985, 1992-2002)
      Cameroon (2004)
      Central African Republic (1981, 1983)
      Congo (Kinshasa) (1979)
      Cote d’Ivoire (1983, 2000)
      Gabon (1999–2005)
      Ghana (1979, 1982)
      Liberia (1989–2006)
      Madagascar (2002)
      Mozambique (1980)
      Rwanda (1995)
      Sierra Leone (1997–1998)
      Sudan (1991)
      Egypt (1984)
      Kenya (1994, 2000)
      Morocco (1983, 1994, 2000)
      Nigeria (1982, 1986, 1992, 2001, 2004)
      South Africa (1985, 1989, 1993)
      Zambia (1983)
      Zimbabwe (1965, 2000, 2006)
      Antigua and Barbuda (1998–2005)
      Argentina (1989, 2002-2005)
      Bolivia (1980, 1986, 1989)
      Chile (1983)
      Costa Rica (1981, 1983, 1984)
      Dominica (2003–2005)
      Dominican Republic (1975-2001, 2005)
      Ecuador (2000, 2008)
      El Salvador (1981-1996)
      Grenada (2004–2005)
      Guatemala (1986, 1989)
      Guyana (1982)
      Honduras (1981)
      Mexico (1982)
      Nicaragua (1828, 1894, 1911, 1915, 1932, 1979)
      Panama (1983, 1983, 1987, 1988-1989)
      Paraguay (1986, 2003)
      Peru (1980, 1984)
      Surinam (2001–2002)
      Trinidad and Tobago (1989)
      Uruguay (1876, 1891, 1915, 1933, 1937, 1983, 1987, 1990, 2003)
      Venezuela (1826, 1848, 1860, 1865, 1892, 1898, 1982, 1990, 1995-1997, 1998, 2004)
      Indonesia (1966, 1998, 2000, 2002)
      Iran (1992)
      Iraq (1990)
      Jordan (1989)
      Myanmar (1984, 1987,2002)
      Mongolia (1997–2000)[16]
      The Philippines (1983)
      Solomon Islands (1995–2004)
      Sri Lanka (1980, 1982, 1996])
      Albania (1990)
      Bulgaria (1990)
      Croatia (1993–1996)
      Greece (2012)
      Poland (1981)
      Russia (1998)
      Turkey 1982
      Ukraine (1998–2000)
      Yugoslavia (1983)

      Are ANY of these countries economic powerhouses? None of them have been doing well since they have all defaulted. How is that for a fact?

      Reply
    • Conor 24/04/12 #

      I’m saying that and please just read what I’m saying for once instead of just trying to poke holes in anything that I have said, it’s rude. If we vote NO, there is the POSSIBILITY that if we continue to rack up a huge deficit that we could have to leave the EU as we would be endangering the Fiscal solvency of the EU. The people who are lending us money at below the market rates will not give it to us forever which is if we dont shrink our deficit at what the treaty stipulates. If forced to go it alone with a high deficit with no access to the markets who wouldnt lend to us if they know we can’t pay it back then we default. The list above is countries that have defaulted. The EU is the biggest tariff free community in the world and that is FACT. They won’t bail us out forever…..

      Reply
    • Complete and utter crap. If you’re going to scaremonger don’t insult peoples intelligence. A catastrophic soverign default in a eurozone country would have such dire consequences for the €6 Trillion eurozone as a whole that it simply will not happen. Thats why greece has been propped up with money it cannot possibly ever hope to pay back. And our government converting prommisary notes to soverign bonds causes a higher risk in the long run of a soverign default than a no vote in a treaty whose effectiveness in solving the crisis does not extend beyond appeasing german voters ahead of their elections.

      Even in bizarro world, where germany and theecb would commit economic suicide by allowing ireland to default, the IMF would still lend us money, and at better terms and with no obligation to pay gamblers losses.

      So can the scaremongering and threats. I’m not a scared OAP afraid of going to jail, and you’re certainly no phil hogan.

      Reply
    • Conor 24/04/12 #

      The Eurozone can recover from an Irish Default, Ireland cannot. Where do you think the IMF gets its money from? Germany, France, Britain, Austria etc…. The IMF will not continue to lend us money in the event of a sovereign default, they won’t throw their members money at us and if they did it would be at punitive rates considering the risks involved in lending to a bankrupt. And what are you on about that you aren’t an OAP. I will give you one thing, I for one am not Phil Hogan

      Reply
    • Interesting that you left Iceland off your list of defaulters there!! Is there any particular reason for that?

      Reply
    • Actualy conor, Ireland wil still be part of the eurozone as no process exists for leaving it, so saying ireland cannot recover but europe can is ridiculous. Its like claiming that your foot can get gangrene and die but remain attached to your body without causing any harm. Did they not treat you that in imaginary trinity?

      @ Frank. Well spotted. A real scholar would give all of the information and then make their argument instead of copy+pasting but removing the bit that doesn’t suit their agenda.

      Reply
    • Conor 24/04/12 #

      It’s called a typo, Iceland defaulted yes, Iceland is self sufficient in regards to energy, plus it’s only a country of 180,000 people. So not really in the same bracket as Ireland. So you think that we would be allowed to default and keep the Euro? Just because there is no mechanism for leaving the Euro doesn’t mean that one can’t be prescribed. You still haven’t explained of what you think should happen? Im really excited to here it and get the chance to pick holes in your logic as you’ve done to me all evening. I took information from wikipedia yes, that was the only copy and pasting that I did. The rest was my argument, I am entitled to make my argument without saying that I have an agenda in scaremongering. I have stated my argument numerous times and the process that could happen where Ireland would have a sovereign default. If you don’t mind explaining your own ideas instead of picking holes in mine, it’s only fair. What do you think the consequences of voting yes and no are? Instead of blindingly stating NO. Please give your reasoning behind your arguments as I have done. If you don’t like what I have to say, fair enough, don’t infer I have an agenda. Tell me what you think would happen if we vote yes or if we vote no?

      Reply
    • Funny sort of typo that removes a line from the middle of a cut and paste, isn’t it? Even funnier sort of typo that just happens to remove the line from the middle of a cut and paste that doesn’t suit your agenda.

      You obviously think we’re uneducated gullible eejits. We’re not. And thanks for giving the ‘no’ vote such a big boost by insulting peoples intelligence and standard of education.

      Oh, and just for the record, I went to college.

      Reply
    • too trueleft,

      god bless ur patience and stamina.

      Reply
    • Conor 24/04/12 #

      I didn’t say I was in fallible, you still haven’t given me your opinion? Bar the fact that you don’t like my opinion.

      Reply
    • Interesting list there Conor. You might let me know just how many of those countries who defaulted are still shut out of the markets? At the same time you might check out how many times Greece has defaulted in say the last 150 years?

      Reply
    • Dave 25/04/12 #

      Conor, lest you think you are the only one who ever got an education, so did I. At University too. And in Economics. Not saying it makes me an expert, but as someone who has been of adult voting age for the Amsterdam Treaty, Nice 1 and Nice 2, Lisbon 1 and Lisbon 2, and now the Fiscal compact, let me assure you, the governing party thrive on spin and lies when advocating a YES vote. They try to tell us that we either “take it or leave”, that if we vote NO, we get locked out. I have a HUGE issue with that Conor, because it undemocratic and I refuse to be blackmailed any more into accepting a version of Europe that I dont want, but that politicians force on us, simply because they dont want to have to re-negotiate. I voted Yes to every EU treaty up to now. I will not do so again until these people realise that the people rule Europe and not the damn politicians. You see Conor, while education is a great foundation – bitter experience teaches you a hell of a lot more. Good day to you.

      Reply
    • Jesus – Trueleft. I HAVE to ask. Why is everyone who disagrees with you “scaremongering”.

      This is an extremely complicated issue. The experts in Europe who have been practising in finance, economics, politicis, law for decades have made a total mess of it.

      The ramifications of all of this are so far reaching and complex that its very difficult to know what the correct course of action is for the best and the brightest – let alone lay people on a message board.

      Conor is arguing coherently and with a background in Finance (allegedly) for a Yes vote. But as far as youre concerned all hes doing is scaremongering?

      Nonsense. An educated person is trying to debate critical issues for the betterment of the nation – disagree with him, contradict his examples, poke holes in his theory – but to dismiss his legitimate arguments as “scaremongering” simply because you dont like them is frankly idiotic.

      Reply
  • I’m voting yes, can’t take the pressure any more! At the moment I’m working and have a young family to support and with all the cuts and taxes I’m barely scraping the end of the barrel, if I vote no it’ll get worse yes? So I’ll just vote yes and HOPE we don’t get taxed any more, or loose any benefits for the kids, or that prices of fuel, food, clothes etc go up any more! Hope, it’s all we’ve got!!!!!! Or do we???

    Reply
    • @Dec, I think the taxes will increase either way. A load of people are hitting the bottom of the barrel right now, I don’t see how taxes on top of taxes are going to secure our future when it’s taking the future away from many of us. Feeling it myself too. Thankfully my wife has full time work again so we will keep going a little longer. All the best to you

      Reply
    • @ Dec vote yes and it will get worse for longer 20 years or so. In the same boat as you but believe me voting away our right to decide on our sovereign right to do what is best for Ireland is a big mistake. More taxes and cuts are on the way Enda and co are asking you to vote yes to those cuts for the next 20 years or more.

      Reply

Add New Comment